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[Marcel]

the thing about this is why is the solution to sequester girls in their own little corner to provide a "safe space"?

why isnt the solution to make everywhere a safe space?

That is the goal, yes. However, as indicated by this thread, some people choose to flaunt or cloak their prejudices even in this well-moderated forum. It's worse in some places where people are actively attacked or victimized. The safe space and zone ideas are a realistic solution to an ongoing and toxic societal problem.

 

[Aeana]

Well, you say it doesn't work. That's certainly an opinion. But the history of civil rights suggests that safe spaces for minorities are actually pretty useful, allowing them to communicate an organize without having to waste time every three seconds responding to terrible false equivalence arguments.

As tempting as it is to pretend history doesn't exist, to start over from now, so no one needs to feel uncomfortable and we can all pretend we live in a society that treats everyone equally -- that's not actually the world we live in.

This is it, and this thread proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I'm a woman. I tend to not participate in threads about this subject. Why? Because when you're one woman amidst an army of men who are bent on deciding what's best for you, you feel incredibly powerless and marginalized. Everything mentioned is picked apart with false equivalencies and completely insane hypotheticals. It's to the point where sometimes just reading a few pages of threads like these leaves me incredibly depressed and ruins my day, because it feels like nothing's ever going to change. Enthusiast gaming communities on the internet are becoming worse for women, not better. Sometimes, it would be nice to get together with other women and talk about certain subjects that matter to us with regards to gaming without having to deal with all of that.

 

[TheOohChild]

Sabotaging a girls only club? Sounds like an episode of the little rascals. Except with creepy forum threats

 

[besada]

the thing about this is why is the solution to sequester girls in their own little corner to provide a "safe space"?

why isnt the solution to make everywhere a safe space?

Because that would require banning huge sections of the rest of the forum, unfortunately. Not just the obnoxiously sexist, but the same guys who turn up in every sexism thread with the same stupid false equivalences. Otherwise, any thread that even attempts to discuss sexism is going to turn into constant arguments, rather than what is actually wanted -- a place where people who have to deal with sexism don't have to constantly argue that it exists in the first place.

GAF sexism threads rarely produce anything interesting, because they're too full of people denying that sexism exists in the first place, and that discussing it is some sort of terrible assault on men.

 

[block tower]

Typical hand-waving bullshit. If only we ignore the past, says he, then we shall move forward. Easy to say when the perspective is from one that has historically enjoyed those advantages that they would now deny to others.

Stop wasting my time.

no truer words have been spoken.

 

[Marcel]

If you want to take away anything from this thread it's that the admins know what's up.

Props to you guys.

 

[Toxi]

[*]The gaming community is sexist. Not a small minority, not a small part of it, but all of of it -

If I say the League of Legends community is terrible, do you think I'm saying every LoL player is terrible?

A few rotten people can spoil an entire perception of a community.

[*]The fact that she is a a member of Something Awful and a Goon in that respect, is enough to question her true intentions. That is the premise of mistrust from the Star Citizen community. Her intentions are questionable. In that respect again, if no one knew that information there would be no suspicion.

This might surprise you, but many gamers post on Something Awful.

Okay seriously, why is the SA shit relevant?

 

[Authority]

All you've done is question the authenticity of her position because of who she associates with. That's textbook ad hominem. Forget she's associated with Goonrathi and then gauge what she's saying. How is it unreasonable?

I have explained extensively including all parties involved (Her, Moderator(s), Star Citizen Community) why it is unreasonable to request a forum-section dedicated to either the majority or the minority. It promotes unnecessary segregation and creates mistrust or intentional or unintentional community frictions.

What she is, is irrelevant but like I said it "reinforces" the idea of her true intentions. Her idea would still promote unnecessary segregation and create mistrust or intentional or unintentional community frictions.

So that is not a textbook ad hominem. Her idea is flawed.

 

[Popnbake]

So giving them a separate thread or group to post in and socialize is bad because only girls would be allowed to post? Is that the problem?
I understand why some other uses might not want a secondary group where women are exclusive posters, as it would exclude them from other users, but it seems silly to get so angry about it. It's an internet forum to talk about a video game. Not a big deal. They can keep posting whatever they want in the full forum without any interruption, so what's the deal?

No, it shows that there is an even bigger problem.

After a conversation today I realised there's not really a place for the females in Star Citizen to hang out and talk about random stuff in a safe environment so I'm starting one.

As mentioned several times already in this thread, I believe that the official Star Citizen forums should be moderated to allow it to be a safe place for discussion for everyone rather than just closing off a section for one particular group.

There was a few general comments such as the fact that women should be encouraged to be active members of the star citizen community and I wholeheartedly agree however the fact remains that females do not always feel comfortable being part of a community which promotes rape and has threads on sexist topics and sometimes need a place to talk to other members of the community with similar ideas.

Giving women a separate forum just seems like a temporary 'band-aid' for this.

This entire thread I flagged some of the more serious posts for a moderator to review, the moderators decided to move the thread to a part of the forums where threads get buried very quickly but left all of the posts in tact and went about their way. Around page 3 or 4 I saw that this was very much out of control so I private messaged community managers Will Lewis and Ben Lesnick for assistance and expressed that this was a genuine thread and the community was something I was passionate about, Will came and closed the thread and left leaving me to wonder what the hell was going on. About an hour later (I presume after Will had read the thread) I found myself unable to log into the forums and was greeted to a big red banner stating that I had been banned for excessive use of the forum flagging option (which as far as I know, isn't even a rule) and for creating a bait thread despite the fact that I was not expecting so much hostility towards my quite innocent idea. The rules quoted were #3 No Trolling and #5 No Spam, how the staff came to this conclusion is absolutely beyond me as no explanation has been given.

My guild mates were treated to moderators deleting entire pages of their posts with no explanation as to why, when the moderators did post they informed my friends that they were not allowed to discuss forum moderation in any way and that by doing so they were in breach of rule #7 which is a blanket rule that says no-one is allowed to discuss the moderators actions on the forum, ever. When my friends questioned this and asked how they could express their dissatisfaction they were told that they were only allowed to contact either a moderator or Will and Ben and that by contacting customer support or a senior member of the company (such as Chris Roberts) that bans would be extended. My friends then questioned what happens if we have an issue with Will and Ben and were told to either remove themselves from the community or they could ask for a refund (note: you can't ask for a refund).

So far approximately 25 of my friends have received bans due to questioning the actions of the moderators and I am still left with a 7 day ban despite having tried to reach out to CIG through various methods. It's also important to note that when you get banned you lose all rights to the forum and chat functions which means that you're not allowed to contact moderators or Will and Ben. for expressing their views.

So from this story (if accurate) it seems to me that the moderators could have went a better way about allowing such discussion to take place rather than deleting related posts/threads.

Also, banning the users involved adds more concerns to the women about not feeling welcome in the forum for expressing their views.
That seems like the biggest misstep here.

 

[Marcel]

If I say the League of Legends community is terrible, do you think I'm saying every LoL player is terrible?

A few rotten people can spoil an entire perception of a community.

This might surprise you, but many gamers post on Something Awful.

Okay seriously, why is the SA shit relevant?

I thought Authority was merely summarizing and cataloging the facts, other people's views and feelings, rather than relaying his or her own feelings.

Edit: And looks like I was flatly wrong. Sad to see.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

He made a thread in OT about BRONY CONVENTION CHILD ABDUCTION being thwarted by brave Internet people, citing some nut's Tumblr as the sole source.

Uhh what? Could you souce cause that sounds unbelieveable.

 

[Majukun]

All you've done is question the authenticity of her position because of who she associates with. That's textbook ad hominem. Forget she's associated with Goonrathi and then gauge what she's saying. How is it unreasonable?

because creating an "only women" part of the forum because they don't feel "safe" it's like admitting that the entire forum is mysogynist hell hole that has no place for the female audience.

if that it's true or not (and if that is the case for the entire community or only a part of it) it's not the problem,since what matters it's public perception,especially sicne it's a game with a huge online component,meaning that the guys in the community are the guys (and girls) you are gonna end up playing with or against

 

[DragonGirl]

Here come the double standards. I bet if they has allowed a men's only group though they would have been called sexists too.

Well, here's the problem though, and why you get some people asking for a women's only group. Most forums for everybody are dominated by guys, many of whom already have a boys club only attitude where women are made to feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. So it's not unusual for the women to ask for a place for themselves, free of harassment and all the other trash that can get thrown our way. It's a request for a safe place, not for favoritism. If the guys on forums would just be humane to their fellow (female) humans, there wouldn't be a feeling of need for this sort of segregation. It's pretty much a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. Ask for a safe place, get accused of sexism. Suck it up and stick with the main forum and be a victim of actual sexism.

 

[Captain Fish]

I'm really confused by the number of times I see the existence of a space where certain people can meet being equated with segregation. The false equivalences and hypotheses that come out to derail these sorts of ideas are incredibly terrible.

 

[badgenome]

How about at least after the point sexism actually starts to be "history".

Well, again, how will we know when that happens? Is there a way to measure it? Or do you declare a problem solved if and only if the aggrieved party is no longer aggrieved? Because in a world where people seem increasingly thin-skinned because loudly expressing grievance confers a measure of credibility and, ironically, privilege, I don't really see why anyone who belongs to a group that has historically been victimized would ever say that enough is enough.

 

[Gotchaye]

because creating an "only women" part of the forum because they don't feel "safe" it's like admitting that the entire forum is mysogynist hell hole that has no place for the female audience.

if that it's true or not (and if that is the case for the entire community or only a part of it) it's not the problem,since what matters it's public perception,especially sicne it's a game with a huge online component,meaning that the guys in the community are the guys (and girls) you are gonna end up playing with or against

Wait. You're saying that even if "the entire forum is a misogynist hellhole", that's not the problem? The problem is recognizing that that's the case, because what's important is avoiding the (stipulated accurate) public perception that the community is like that?

 

[EviLore]

This is it, and this thread proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I'm a woman. I tend to not participate in threads about this subject. Why? Because when you're one woman amidst an army of men who are bent on deciding what's best for you, you feel incredibly powerless and marginalized. Everything mentioned is picked apart with false equivalencies and completely insane hypotheticals. It's to the point where sometimes just reading a few pages of threads like these leaves me incredibly depressed and ruins my day, because it feels like nothing's ever going to change. Enthusiast gaming communities on the internet are becoming worse for women, not better. Sometimes, it would be nice to get together with other women and talk about certain subjects that matter to us with regards to gaming without having to deal with all of that.

But isn't a space set aside for women gamers on an internet forum full of men one step away from the days of the Judenstern in Nazi Germany, Aeana?

 

[obonicus]

I have explained extensively including all parties involved (Her, Moderator(s), Star Citizen Community) why it is unreasonable to request a forum-section dedicated to either the majority or the minority. It promotes unnecessary segregation and creates mistrust or intentional or unintentional community frictions.

Did you read the OP? All of it? Point out where in her original post she asks for a forum-section dedicated to her group, please. She says she's starting one. She's setting up a jabber server. She's setting up the infrastructure. She's not asking the forum admins to do anything.

What she is, is irrelevant but like I said it "reinforces" the idea of her true intentions. Her idea would still promote unnecessary segregation and create mistrust or intentional or unintentional community frictions.

It's irrelevant, period. You have no idea what her true intentions are. You're supposing bad faith from someone you have no history with. There is nothing confrontational or subversive in her original post, unless your community is so stunted and disfunctional that simply saying 'Hey guys, I'm starting a group for women. PM me if interested!' is somehow asking for trouble.

So that is not a textbook ad hominem. Her idea is flawed.

You don't even know what her idea is.

 

[Majukun]

Wait. You're saying that even if "the entire forum is a misogynist hellhole", that's not the problem? The problem is recognizing that that's the case, because what's important is avoiding the (stipulated accurate) public perception that the community is like that?

he asked "why it is unresonable?"

i answered to that.
it's unresonable because the public perception takes priority for the mod of an official forum.

 

[Jackpot]

Well, again, how will we know when that happens?

Maybe we won't know the precise point it happens. But I think we can all agree it hasn't happened yet, and won't before Star Citizen is released.

 

[Marcel]

he asked "why it is unresonable?"

i answered to that.
it's unresonable because the public perception takes priority for the mod of an official forum.

Wouldn't addressing the problem in a modern and proactive way work better than just acting like the problem doesn't exist?

it's like admitting that the entire forum is mysogynist hell hole that has no place for the female audience

People are going to think that anyway as a result of what's actually in the content of the forum so making a safe zone would actually do more for them.

 

[RpgN]

This is it, and this thread proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I'm a woman. I tend to not participate in threads about this subject. Why? Because when you're one woman amidst an army of men who are bent on deciding what's best for you, you feel incredibly powerless and marginalized. Everything mentioned is picked apart with false equivalencies and completely insane hypotheticals. It's to the point where sometimes just reading a few pages of threads like these leaves me incredibly depressed and ruins my day, because it feels like nothing's ever going to change. Enthusiast gaming communities on the internet are becoming worse for women, not better. Sometimes, it would be nice to get together with other women and talk about certain subjects that matter to us with regards to gaming without having to deal with all of that.

I've always wondered how you felt about this topic seeing as you don't share your views.

It can be equally frustrating repeating the same answer or saying nothing to an opinion you don't agree with At least it's nice knowing where you stand. Kagari also doesn't participate in these kind of threads. I wonder the same about her.

 

[Authority]

If I say the League of Legends community is terrible, do you think I'm saying every LoL player is terrible?

A few rotten people can spoil an entire perception of a community.

This might surprise you, but many gamers post on Something Awful.

Okay seriously, why is the SA shit relevant?

So if I say the male population is misogynistic what percentage of that does it include? 90% or 99%? Statements like that are absolute so either you defend them with evidence or do not make absolute statements. So if I say the male population accepts rape culture but "some of them do not" somehow my absolute statement is more sound because I am accepting exceptions?

Like I said the statement is absolute not a "few rotten apples".

SA is not just a "random group" just like Kotaku is not a "random gaming news website". Every group has got its history, its past, its presence and its future. Every group has got its own weight.

And it will always be relevant as long as they want it to be relevant. If they want the public to perceive them otherwise they should do something about it.

 

[NervousXtian]

I think if what she wanted was like one of the threads on GAF, ie: Black Culture, BritGAF, GermanGAF, LGBT, ChristianityGAF, etc, etc, etc than there's no issues at all.

We have all those threads on GAF, and though I fit ZERO of the criteria of the OP's listed above, I am free to read or participate (within the forum rules) with no fear.

Take this from the BCT:

Welcome to the BCT. Where everything from Little Caesars to 'what's hot on the streets' is up for debate. First off, we'd just want to thank everyone that has made a contribution to this thread, community, or across the forums in one of the many race-related threads in the past or plans to do so in the future. Its not easy and I know it gets old, but its appreciated and necessary. Next, this isn't a "Blacks Only" spot by any means. Any and all are free to hop in. Consider it open mic. All are welcome to keep it real.

None of these threads are meant as exclusionary in the slightest, but they are havens for people of these groups to participate and share common experiences. They are moderated for trolls or inappropriate comments.. the rules of GAF apply just like anywhere else.

If that is what she wished for, any one in uproar deserves the ban hammer.

I'm not for excluded groups though, not a public discussion forum that isn't exclusionary to begin with. Posting on a forum is a privilege though, not a right.. unless you own it.

The GAF approach to these issues makes much more sense... give people the OT and ban the asshats who won't to troll or spoil things.

The approach the OP (on the other forum) went for with wanting a closed-off section is the wrong approach to take.. and it's not at all surprising that things went down the way they did.

If that same thread was posted on GAF, it would have been completely different. .

 

[Grief.exe]

I think if what she wanted was like one of the threads on GAF, ie: Black Culture, BritGAF, GermanGAF, LGBT, ChristianityGAF, etc, etc, etc than there's no issues at all.

We have all those threads on GAF, and though I fit ZERO of the criteria of the OP's listed above, I am free to read or participate (within the forum rules) with no fear.

Take this from the BCT:

Welcome to the BCT. Where everything from Little Caesars to 'what's hot on the streets' is up for debate. First off, we'd just want to thank everyone that has made a contribution to this thread, community, or across the forums in one of the many race-related threads in the past or plans to do so in the future. Its not easy and I know it gets old, but its appreciated and necessary. Next, this isn't a "Blacks Only" spot by any means. Any and all are free to hop in. Consider it open mic. All are welcome to keep it real.

None of these threads are meant as exclusionary in the slightest, but they are havens for people of these groups to participate and share common experiences. They are moderated for trolls or inappropriate comments.. the rules of GAF apply just like anywhere else.

If that is what she wished for, any one in uproar deserves the ban hammer.

I'm not for excluded groups though, not a public discussion forum that isn't exclusionary to begin with. Posting on a forum is a privilege though, not a right.. unless you own it.

The GAF approach to these issues makes much more sense... give people the OT and ban the asshats who won't to troll or spoil things.

The approach the OP (on the other forum) went for with wanting a closed-off section is the wrong approach to take.. and it's not at all surprising that things went down the way they did.

If that same thread was posted on GAF, it would have been completely different. .

GAF is a much more well moderated forum. It sounds like there is a real problem with moderating the community over on Star Citizen forums.

If the first step is to make a completely segregated club to feel safe, rather than the solution you propose, you know there is a real problem over there.

 

[AlimNassor]

SA is generally very liberal when it comes to gender issues, and is full of members who are a) completely normal and b) active members of other communities. Don't chalk it up to trolling just because they're SA.

(Note: I can't see the avatar you're talking about)

SA is now the opposite of 4chan. Where as 4chan is mostly ultra-right wing white is right trolls, SA are ultra left PC trolls. They do these things to prove everyone is racist/sexist/transphobic and then prove they're "superior".

 

[Mithos]

That's not really what I said at all and trying to paint me as apologetic to racism shows that you have very little to actually say on what we're actually discussing

Discrimination is bad no matter what direction you throw it, especially if you strive for equality.

as far as im concerned history is still being made in that country. while im not condoning whats going on, it IS directly tied to the history of the country, it's not something that is random, it is reactionary of South Africa's history.

Yeah and I'm not and will never condone discrimination to make equality because it is in direct conflict with what you are trying to achieve.

How will it make the problem worse? What do you define as "the problem"?

Hove you read the response to her wanting to make a Girl Only club, you thing its working in her favor/the way she hoped? The problem as I see it, you don't discriminate to create equality.

 

[Majukun]

Wouldn't addressing the problem in a modern and proactive way work better than just acting like the problem doesn't exist?

it's not like you can change someone's mentality with a 7 days ban.

and anyway,i'm not judging the community,and I'm not saying if the OP opinion of said community is correct or not,since to judge a community,you should interact with it on a daily basis...looking at isolated cases of some members who would like to have rape or space bikinis in their space adventure game doesn't allow to judge the entire community...or even the majority of it.

 

[Mengy]

I'm a woman. I tend to not participate in threads about this subject. Why? Because when you're one woman amidst an army of men who are bent on deciding what's best for you, you feel incredibly powerless and marginalized. Everything mentioned is picked apart with false equivalencies and completely insane hypotheticals. It's to the point where sometimes just reading a few pages of threads like these leaves me incredibly depressed and ruins my day, because it feels like nothing's ever going to change. Enthusiast gaming communities on the internet are becoming worse for women, not better. Sometimes, it would be nice to get together with other women and talk about certain subjects that matter to us with regards to gaming without having to deal with all of that.

Wow, really Aeana? This post surprises me, because I honestly think it has gotten better for women gamers on the net over the years, not worse. I'm not saying you are wrong, it's possible I just haven't noticed it nor dealt much with it. Maybe it's just hard to perceive from a man's point of view. What you said makes me sad though, because no person (due to gender nor race) here on GAF should feel that way as a posting member.

 

[obonicus]

he asked "why it is unresonable?"

i answered to that.
it's unresonable because the public perception takes priority for the mod of an official forum.

The real answer is that it's not unreasonable at all. What's unreasonable is trying to dissatisfaction via bannings, especially very mildly-phrased dissatisfaction.
The reasonable response would have been: 'We can't create sub-forum for you, but hey, we appreciate you creating your own community, hope to see you in-game!' or some similar low-content response. And then cleaned up all and any personal attacks.

 

[Authority]

Did you read the OP? All of it? Point out where in her original post she asks for a forum-section dedicated to her group, please. She says she's starting one. She's setting up a jabber server. She's setting up the infrastructure. She's not asking the forum admins to do anything.

I thought it was a forum-section so my bad on that one. My position still stands but if people want exclusivity then it is up to them.

It's irrelevant, period. You have no idea what her true intentions are. You're supposing bad faith from someone you have no history with. There is nothing confrontational or subversive in her original post, unless your community is so stunted and disfunctional that simply saying 'Hey guys, I'm starting a group for women. PM me if interested!' is somehow asking for trouble.

You don't even know what her idea is.

Briefly, her idea is to create a safe environment for females because they need protection from the male population that is misogynistic and accepts rape culture.

She has made perfectly clear what she thinks of the gaming population and specifically for the Star Citizen Community based on some threads in which one was locked for stupidity and the other is open because there is nothing wrong with wanting more customization.

There is no need to sugar-coat her views. She is entitled to her view but I am entitled to show the hole in it.

Edit: Kindly do not consider that I use the word "females" as a negative or an inferior term.

 

[Wazzy]

Wow, really Aeana? This post surprises me, because I honestly think it has gotten better for women gamers on the net over the years, not worse. I'm not saying you are wrong, it's possible I just haven't noticed it nor dealt much with it. Maybe it's just hard to perceive from a man's point of view. What you said makes me sad though, because no person (due to gender nor race) here on GAF should feel that way as a posting member.

It has and it hasn't.

I mean, go look at any thread asking for more female representation and you'll see why she thinks that way.

 

[Toxi]

So if I say the male population is misogynistic what percentage of that does it include? 90% or 99%? Statements like that are absolute so either you defend them with evidence or do not make absolute statements. So if I say the male population accepts rape culture but "some of them do not" somehow my absolute statement is more sound because I am accepting exceptions?

Like I said the statement is absolute not a "few rotten apples."

A community is not a population. It is not just made out of people, but also the cultural norms and relationships of those people. When somebody claims a community is awful, they are not claiming near every individual is awful, but that there is an atmosphere of general awfulness surrounding it because the worst behavior stands out and is often tolerated.

SA is not just a "random group" just like Kotaku is not a "random gaming news website". Every group has got its history, its past, its presence and its future. Every group has got its own weight.

And it will always be relevant as long as they want it to be relevant. If they want the public to perceive them otherwise they should do something about it.

And you are still failing to provide any context to why her SA membership matters or affects her arguments.

That's ad hominem.

Spoiler

But I can see why you made that post, considering you post on NeoGAF.

 

[runnin_blue]

God, I hate these threads and what they become.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Not to speak on behalf of her, but look at what Aeana is saying: in her experience, she has been discouraged from speaking on these issues due to a backlash from the majority demographic. It doesn't take a lot to stop talking and really take on board what she is saying. If you can honestly say you've been discouraged in the same sort of way, based on sex and gender, then talk away. Otherwise try to understand what she is saying, instead of going into reflex hypothetical mode.

Returning to Star Citizen, after seeing that rape thread, I really don't want to go back to look at it again. If that's how they run a forum, JESUS...

 

[Kiriku]

I personally think if this is a way to get more women into playing and talking about games online, it's awesome. That's 1000 times better than having to feel uncomfortable discussing or playing games online to the point where you avoid it altogether.
But in any case, the most important thing is they should absolutely be allowed to create that group if they want to.

 

[Majukun]

The real answer is that it's not unreasonable at all. What's unreasonable is trying to dissatisfaction via bannings, especially very mildly-phrased dissatisfaction.
The reasonable response would have been: 'We can't create sub-forum for you, but hey, we appreciate you creating your own community, hope to see you in-game!' or some similar low-content response. And then cleaned up all and any personal attacks.

well ,from what i've understood they didn't ban her because of her proposal,but because she publicy criticized the mod's decision

and givin' bans for that is standard practice in any forum,really.

 

[NervousXtian]

GAF is a much more well moderated forum. It sounds like there is a real problem with moderating the community over on Star Citizen forums.

If the first step is to make a completely segregated club to feel safe, rather than the solution you propose, you know there is a real problem over there.

Well, I think we can thank EvilLore for a lot of that. It was built on a no-bullshit policy and stuck too it. It's also no affiliated with any product or service... it's not trying to be something to something else because of that. It's an enthusiast forum and mass-bannings don't destroy some perception of their product.

I don't envy moderators of sites like the SC forums (or any specific authorized forum) as banning someone means you banned a customer. I forget who it was that said it about their games, but I vaguely remember this, but they were asked why the didn't have a forum and they said it wasn't worth it. It's not. Better to let someone else handle it.. because managing cesspools of your own customers can't be a fun job.

..but to your last point I don't think that's true.. unless I'm wrong.. but was my approach taken? If it was, and the thread was torn apart by trolling men who want to be the male poker player at the ladies game.. and they weren't banned.. then yes the place is unfixable.

Have the sub-forums, but leave them open to all.. but moderate them. That's not what was being asked for though. I think it's a pretty big difference. Because personally, why would I want to be part of a community where they had to have secret sub-forums for specific groups because they can't moderate the open threads on the open forum? I wouldn't.

 

[inm8num2]

GAF sexism threads rarely produce anything interesting, because they're too full of people denying that sexism exists in the first place, and that discussing it is some sort of terrible assault on men.

That's pretty much the issue in a nutshell.

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

SA is now the opposite of 4chan. Where as 4chan is mostly ultra-right wing white is right trolls, SA are ultra left PC trolls. They do these things to prove everyone is racist/sexist/transphobic and then prove they're "superior".

Keep moving those goalposts.

I think if what she wanted was like one of the threads on GAF, ie: Black Culture, BritGAF, GermanGAF, LGBT, ChristianityGAF, etc, etc, etc than there's no issues at all.

We have all those threads on GAF, and though I fit ZERO of the criteria of the OP's listed above, I am free to read or participate (within the forum rules) with no fear.

Take this from the BCT:



None of these threads are meant as exclusionary in the slightest, but they are havens for people of these groups to participate and share common experiences. They are moderated for trolls or inappropriate comments.. the rules of GAF apply just like anywhere else.

If that is what she wished for, any one in uproar deserves the ban hammer.

I'm not for excluded groups though, not a public discussion forum that isn't exclusionary to begin with. Posting on a forum is a privilege though, not a right.. unless you own it.

The GAF approach to these issues makes much more sense... give people the OT and ban the asshats who won't to troll or spoil things.

The approach the OP (on the other forum) went for with wanting a closed-off section is the wrong approach to take.. and it's not at all surprising that things went down the way they did.

If that same thread was posted on GAF, it would have been completely different. .

That's because our community, headed by mods/admins (as shown here) are more welcoming and don't fuck with intolerance. But it's not like that in the Star Citizen forums. For example, an LBGT thread was made in Star Citizen forums several months back and it got derailed pretty fast.

Wow, really Aeana? This post surprises me, because I honestly think it has gotten better for women gamers on the net over the years, not worse. I'm not saying you are wrong, it's possible I just haven't noticed it nor dealt much with it. Maybe it's just hard to perceive from a man's point of view. What you said makes me sad though, because no person (due to gender nor race) here on GAF should feel that way as a posting member.

It's not there yet. Want an example, look at the Anita Sarkeesian topics on GAF.

 

[aeolist]

Wow, really Aeana? This post surprises me, because I honestly think it has gotten better for women gamers on the net over the years, not worse. I'm not saying you are wrong, it's possible I just haven't noticed it nor dealt much with it. Maybe it's just hard to perceive from a man's point of view. What you said makes me sad though, because no person (due to gender nor race) here on GAF should feel that way as a posting member.

the problem is that once some progress was made the entrenched male majority pushed back

 

[AnotherDustInTheWind]

Reading some of these pages is extremely disappointing. I feel like most of these posts are so blind that they must all be from adolescents who have yet to experience life. As a guy, I hope one day when you go to a Uni or just just generally mature, you are exposed to strong women who convey what it's like to be on the other side of the gender line. This isn't a perfect world and sexism is a real thing and was very apparant in all parts of this thread and in the Star Citizen posts.

Read up on it. Stop being so vehemently opposed to the idea of feminism just because of the stigma.

Please, grow up. You make me look bad. Gamers and men.

 

[Karkador]

It has and it hasn't.

I mean, go look at any thread asking for more female representation and you'll see why she thinks that way.

More representation of women in videogames, wazzy? Sorry, but this is a male-dominated hobby, and if women or other minority groups want to see a change, they should form their own studios and their own groups to change the industry.

Oh wait, you're forming your own group and men can't join? Hang on, that's discriminatory and reverse-sexism. We should strive for everyone to behave well, you don't need your own group. What could you possibly want your own group for?

 

[BeesEight]

I can't be the only one that finds it bizarre that members of the majority are demanding that members of a minority must conduct all their interactions and discourse before their attention and approval.

It's unfortunate that the distinction between segregation and safe spaces has to be made. A safe space is just that - one place that is free from the conflict present in the greater whole. It is not that women gamers would only be allowed to post in a women's only thread but that they would have a thread where they wouldn't have to listen to a lot of nonsense.

Seriously, what's this concern over "secrecy." The women aren't going to be plotting the downfall of the world here. I can understand that it's hard for some people who aren't members of a persecuted minority to understand the full scope of the discrimination that can be experienced. However, it seems really strange to need constant supervision of these groups. Why would you want to monitor what women are discussing 24/7?

As for the argument that it is unnecessary for a gaming forum, all I can say is from personal experience I did find comfort and support on a gaming forum when dealing with my own sexuality issues. Sometimes finding the "proper" support networks isn't the easiest thing and having these spaces for minorities where they can feel comfortable discussing "unrelated" issues in places that they do frequent is enormously beneficial.

All that said, I don't know if the requirement that you have to "prove" you're a girl to participate is necessary or even desirable assuming that you can have good moderation to keep the toxicity and trolling out.

 

[Majukun]

It has and it hasn't.

I mean, go look at any thread asking for more female representation and you'll see why she thinks that way.

well on the internet every "gender wars" thread it's bounded to see some members from both genders saying something stupid or making some hyperbole

 

[Marcel]

Wow, really Aeana? This post surprises me, because I honestly think it has gotten better for women gamers on the net over the years, not worse. I'm not saying you are wrong, it's possible I just haven't noticed it nor dealt much with it. Maybe it's just hard to perceive from a man's point of view. What you said makes me sad though, because no person (due to gender nor race) here on GAF should feel that way as a posting member.

I can only speak from a transgendered person's perspective but I feel like it's a fat zero. It's great that we can discuss this issue more freely than 10 years ago where I'm made fun of for my choices and beliefs with impunity for the aggressors. It's shitty that people's prejudices are essentially the same but they're just cloaked in pedantry or false equivalencies, especially when people act as if sexism doesn't exist or "is over."

It's disgusting.

the problem is that once some progress was made the entrenched male majority pushed back

Bingo.

 

[Amalthea]

But isn't a space set aside for women gamers on an internet forum full of men one step away from the days of the Judenstern in Nazi Germany, Aeana?

What are Women's Shelter then? Concentration camps?
How hard is it to imagine people need some safe space if they are met with hostility. This is more like Zionism than Progrom if we want to dance all the way down to Jewish history-town.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

What are Women's Shelter then? Concentration camps?
How hard is it to imagine people need some safe space if they are met with hostility. This is more like Zionism than Progrom if we want to dance all the way down to Jewish history-town.

I believe he was being facetious.

 

[Veive257]

For those who missed it, Lauresh isn't against Star Citizen, just seems to be mad at the forum moderation team:

http://www.lauresh.com/2014/05/star-citizen-game.html

also, the community manager is looking into the moderation action and will reverse if it wasn't fair:

https://twitter.com/banditloaf

Lots of this is drama for the sake of drama.

 

[Aeana]

Wow, really Aeana? This post surprises me, because I honestly think it has gotten better for women gamers on the net over the years, not worse. I'm not saying you are wrong, it's possible I just haven't noticed it nor dealt much with it. Maybe it's just hard to perceive from a man's point of view. What you said makes me sad though, because no person (due to gender nor race) here on GAF should feel that way as a posting member.

It's worse now because women are being more vocal than ever about how they feel about the game industry, which seems to threaten a normal sect of gamers, but on top of that, the MRA movement is also picking up considerable steam, which amplifies things further. And for NeoGAF in particular, just due to its sheer size, it's becoming increasingly representative of society at large. People are less afraid to say what they really think on the internet, and they are also challenged to amplify their views amongst the already-extreme voices in order to be heard. The result is really, really awful. As moderators, we do our best to stamp out the worst offenders, but there is always going to be this group of people who just have crappy views but don't cross the line into banworthy territory. And that group gets larger as NeoGAF gets larger. Fortunately, we have great members who are willing to patiently engage many of these people and show them a different perspective. Not every hateful voice is actually hateful. Sometimes it's just ignorant.

But I love this place, and it is by far the most friendly place for minority groups I've ever been to on the internet, and I do my best to keep it that way.