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[explodet]

Sorry, I maybe should just said train. But it is a train filled with literally hundreds of corpses.

No need to be sorry, it's an accurate phrase. It's that this is literally a thing that exists that upsets me.

 

[iceatcs]

"corpse train" phrase is something we likely heard that during Nazi era. But never thought it happening on the news right now.

 

[lorebringer]

You, apparently.

Oh of course, I shouldn't have cited such obviously biased pro Russian sources like Time and the NY Times when presenting my facts.

 

[MaxwellGames]

This is most likely not true at all. There are reports of unmarked Russian soldiers that are helping the separatists yes, and only somebody very naive would believe that Russia is not involved in arming and/or training them, which is pretty much par for the course for this kind of scenario, no matter who's involved. The separatists are largely former citizens of Ukraine who are from the region they are fighting in. There are plenty of reports that back this up.



Who are you talking to?

You are so full of shit it's ridiculous.

If there's one thing that's painfully obvious about this whole thing.. is that it's the Russians using their troops and resources.

ARE YOU BLIND?!?

 

[bonesmccoy]

You seem to be confused. The pictures of the system in that region were pictures posted by these rebels bragging about how they seized it.

Lol, ease up BBB:

www.cp24.com/mobile/world/ukrainian-forces-win-more-ground-in-eastern-ukraine-1.1899368

The pic in the article was from about 3-4 weeks ago.

 

[lorebringer]

You are so full of shit it's ridiculous.

If there's one thing that's painfully obvious about this whole thing.. is that it's the Russians using their troops and resources.

ARE YOU BLIND?!?

It's so obvious you felt there was no need to provide any proof at all I see. Did you even read what I posted? I actually cited sources for the facts that you could check if you don't believe me.

 

[Stinkles]

It's so obvious you felt there was no need to provide any proof at all I see. Did you even read what I posted? I actually cited sources for the facts that you could check if you don't believe me.

Proof of what? All you are posting is distractions from the matter at hand, because for some reason you wish to obfuscate or cast doubt on the ridiculously obvious Russian culpability. The idea that anyone is responsible for this except Russia and its badly trained proxy army in Ukraine, is laughable. So when you post these little nuggets of obfuscatory "doubt" it's literally embarrassing. And deliberately derailing the conversation from the plain evidence that Putin done fucked up.

 

[speculawyer]

I listened to some BBC interview of a Russian official giving the Russian perspective. It is straight up Alex Jones conspiracy theory type stuff.

The argument was:
1) "Who profits?" Ukraine benefits from such shoot down so it is likely they did it.
2) Who had the capability . . . the Ukrainians have such SAM capability.


Of course this ignores the fact that it is known the separatists had such capability too, it was likely just a dumb mistake no matter who did it so this removes the motive angle, the separatists supposedly have the black boxes and have not turned them over to international officials, the crash site guarded by separatists has been looted such that missile fragments may be gone now, etc.

I can understand Russian people wanting to defend their country but when you fuck up, it is better to just admit it. I don't see many Americans denying that we accidentally shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I listened to some BBC interview of a Russian official giving the Russian perspective. It is straight up Alex Jones conspiracy theory type stuff.

This is the norm.

 

[Partial Gamification]

It was mentioned in another link posted but a little more on Security Council's vote today:

Russia will be forced as early as this morning to show its hand on whether it will allow international experts access to the MH17 crash site, when the United Nations Security Council votes on a resolution to establish a full, independent investigation.

The Australian resolution, backed by France and Lithuania, is due to go to a vote about 5am AEST today.

But Russia, as one of five permanent members of the Security Council, has the power to veto the push to allow international experts to investigate the crash, retrieve bodies from the site and find out who was responsible for shooting down the Malaysia Airlines flight.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said yesterday there should be an investigation.

The vote should flush out Russia’s position on whether it will provide safe access for international investigators to collect the bodies, examine the site, access the black box flight recorders and hunt for those responsible for the atrocity.
source

Vote is coming up.
http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/security-council-ukraine/1686152121001
People are showing up for the meeting.

 

[Jenov]

It was mentioned in another link posted but a little more on Security Council's vote today:

Vote is coming up.
http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/security-council-ukraine/1686152121001
People are showing up for the meeting.

So what happens when Russia vetoes?

 

[lorebringer]

Proof of what? All you are posting is distractions from the matter at hand, because for some reason you wish to obfuscate or cast doubt on the ridiculously obvious Russian culpability. The idea that anyone is responsible for this except Russia and its badly trained proxy army in Ukraine, is laughable. So when you post these little nuggets of obfuscatory "doubt" it's literally embarrassing. And deliberately derailing the conversation from the plain evidence that Putin done fucked up.

All I'm posting is facts in response to speculation on things we don't know anything about. There was a claim that the separatists in Ukraine are all Russian soldiers and Russian trained. This is demonstrably false. It is likely that some of them are Russian troops and they almost certainly have received supplies and equipment from Russia but the majority of the separatist fighters are not from Russia. The fact remains that we don't know the full details of the incident, all we have is conflicting statements from various parties.

 

[imtehman]

I listened to some BBC interview of a Russian official giving the Russian perspective. It is straight up Alex Jones conspiracy theory type stuff.

The argument was:
1) "Who profits?" Ukraine benefits from such shoot down so it is likely they did it.
2) Who had the capability . . . the Ukrainians have such SAM capability.


Of course this ignores the fact that it is known the separatists had such capability too, it was likely just a dumb mistake, the separatists supposedly have the black boxes and have not turned them over to international officials, the crash site guarded by separatists has been looted such that missile fragments may be gone now, etc.

I can understand Russian people wanting to defend their country but when you fuck up, it is better to just admit it. I don't see many Americans denying that we accidentally shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988.

why do people dismiss conspiracies when things like hte bay of pigs and gulf of tonkin happened? When we know the C.I.A. do many covert things? when there is a black budget and black budget and blkack ops.

Especially when the mainstream media all says the same thing as though they get their "news" from the same source as though it was some propoganda machine.

 

[MaxwellGames]

why do people dismiss conspiracies when things like hte bay of pigs and gulf of tonkin happened? When we know the C.I.A. do many covert things? when there is a black budget and black budget and blkack ops.

Especially when the mainstream media all says the same thing as though they get their "news" from the same source as though it was some propoganda machine.

Break out your tin foil hats folks, we're going down the rabbit hole...

 

[speculawyer]

why do people dismiss conspiracies when things like hte bay of pigs and gulf of tonkin happened?

Especially when the mainstream media all says the same thing as though they get their "news" from the same source as though it was some propoganda machine.

Because of evidence.

At this point you can't completely rule out the theory being advanced by the Russians but the probability of it being true is very low. Because things like where the plane was shot down, not having black boxes turned over, etc.

If they really believe the Ukranians did it then why not turn over the black boxes which will support their case?


Gulf of Tonkin . . . plenty of reason to cast doubt on it since there were no third party sources of the relevant information.

 

[imtehman]

Because of evidence.

At this point you can't completely rule out the theory being advanced by the Russians but the probability of it being true is very low. Because things like where the plane was shot down, not having black boxes turned over, etc.

If they really believe the Ukranians did it then why not turn over the black boxes which will support their case?


Gulf of Tonkin . . . plenty of reason to cast doubt on it since there were no third party sources of the relevant information.

evidence? you mean like the evidence that lead us into the iraq war in 2004? pshhhh

 

[sangreal]

So what happens when Russia vetoes?

Nothing; they probably won't veto it anyway. The language was already agreed to w/ them (after arguments over using the language "shot down"), so at worst I imagine they'll abstain but it is a symbolic resolution anyway

 

[Earendil]

All I'm posting is facts in response to speculation on things we don't know anything about. There was a claim that the separatists in Ukraine are all Russian soldiers and Russian trained. This is demonstrably false. It is likely that some of them are Russian troops and they almost certainly have received supplies and equipment from Russia but the majority of the separatist fighters are not from Russia. The fact remains that we don't know the full details of the incident, all we have is conflicting statements from various parties.

Question: Who do you think shot down the plane? Separatists? Or the Ukrainian military?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

evidence? you mean like the evidence that lead us into the iraq war in 2004? pshhhh

By your logic anything you don't witness personally firsthand could be a conspiracy. For that matter why is it the CIA only capable of black ops and conspiracies? What about the Russian agencies?

 

[imtehman]

Break out your tin foil hats folks, we're going down the rabbit hole...

you dont need tinfoil hats, this is reality and these things happen before and it will happen again. Its better to discuss and ask all questions and be skeptical than to accept what everybody is telling you.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Please don't threadshit by engaging the 9/11 truther.

 

[jimi_dini]

why do people dismiss conspiracies when things like hte bay of pigs and gulf of tonkin happened? When we know the C.I.A. do many covert things? when there is a black budget and black budget and blkack ops.

We have definitive proof, that there at least were extremely evil people thinking up extremely evil things.

"Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba (TS)" aka Operation Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

The proposals, which called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in US cities and elsewhere, were rejected by the Kennedy administration.

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various US military and civilian targets. The operation recommended developing a "Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

..."but this was 50 years ago. Noone would think any of that up nowadays and noone would ever do anything like that, because it's super evil. Remember, we™ are the good guys™"...

By your logic anything you don't witness personally firsthand could be a conspiracy.

The power point slides presented by sock-puppet Powell were obviously faked. There simply were no WMDs in Iraq.

This here also happened in 1990:

This nice girl said that she had witnessed Iraqi soldiers take babies out of incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital, take the incubators, and leave the babies to die.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)

Sounds really awful, right? Well it was all faked by a US PR agency. Really. It's actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador. Everyone reported it as fact. When the truth came out, nothing happened at all.

 

[Partial Gamification]

UN Security Council now on:
http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/security-council-ukraine/1686152121001

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

There were reports earlier that Russians were trying to plant parts of an air-to-air missile and/or a SU-25 at the crash site.



Whataboutism. Classic Soviet propaganda tactic.

This will be stupid. Su-25 can reach only 7.000km and battle altitude is only 5.000.

 

[Osiris]

All I'm posting is facts in response to speculation on things we don't know anything about. There was a claim that the separatists in Ukraine are all Russian soldiers and Russian trained. This is demonstrably false. It is likely that some of them are Russian troops and they almost certainly have received supplies and equipment from Russia but the majority of the separatist fighters are not from Russia. The fact remains that we don't know the full details of the incident, all we have is conflicting statements from various parties.

If you choose to give all the theories equal credence then that's on you, but personally I think that is due to a weakness in your ability to use critical reasoning skills, buy hey, maybe that's just me.

The overwhelming evidence, circumstantial as it is, all points to the rebels having shot down MH17 with a Russian supplied SA-11, operated by Russian trained operators, who are members of a Russia supported separatist movement, headed by Russian leaders (Girkin / Pushilin etc.)

If you choose to believe otherwise, fine, you are free to do so, but expecting others, who have followed this from the start to also apply "equivalence" to all the theories being floated by Russia is expecting too much.

Not all theories are equal, they never are.

As for the outright tinfoil CT stuff, seriously, get that shit the fuck out of here.

 

[sangreal]

This will be stupid. Su-25 can reach only 7.000km and battle altitude is only 5.000.

No problem, we can fix that: http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Су-25&diff=prev&oldid=64346604

 

[Osiris]

No problem, we can fix that: http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Су-25&diff=prev&oldid=64346604

I saw that, amusing as fuck.

 

[BradC00]

Gulf of Tonkin . . . plenty of reason to cast doubt on it since there were no third party sources of the relevant information.

i don't really want to derail this thread, but I've got a question...what's the significance of Gulf of Tonkin incident? I mean, the Maddox was attacked on August 2nd, even NVA claimed they hit the Maddox with a torpedo, and shot down a plane.

and how do people explain the deleted tweets from the rebels claiming they shot down a Ukrainian transport if they believe Ukraine shot down MH17 (or the rebels holding the bodies hostage, taking the black box, shooting around inspection officials, heard of planting SU wreckage or an air to air missile, not sure if that's true, but basically just being cunts)

 

[CTLance]

Can you stupid fucks please concentrate on the topic at hand and not drag in any stupid unrelated bullshit from outside?

Geeze Louise. What the hell.

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

No problem, we can fix that: http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Су-25&diff=prev&oldid=64346604

Lol. I heard that from my father and then checked on EN wiki, so not seen this.

 

[Amir0x]

No problem, we can fix that: http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Су-25&diff=prev&oldid=64346604

lmfao

 

[Tarr]

Please don't threadshit by engaging the 9/11 truther.

Their is something going on here though. I think the allies(countries against terrorism) are fucking those countries up without due. No fucking way with time zones and all that stuff, Israel just decide to fuck shit up a hour or two after news start reporting of a shot down jet.

Distraction is the greatest weapon.

 

[Chariot]

UN Security Council now on:
http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/security-council-ukraine/1686152121001

Thanks for that. Australian representative was very clear in her statements and how much this whole situations disgusts the country.

I don't understand what Luxenbourg says, I think it's french

 

[Verano]

Can you stupid fucks please concentrate on the topic at hand and not drag in any stupid unrelated bullshit from outside?

Geeze Louise. What the hell.

This please...take your bs to the PM's. Can't get through the thread without you guys going off topic while simultaneously verbally abusing each other

 

[HelloMeow]

Their is something going on here though. I think the allies(countries against terrorism) are fucking those countries up without due. No fucking way with time zones and all that shit Israel decide to fuck shit up a hour or two after news start reporting of a shot down jet.

Distraction is the greatest weapon.

What the shit.

 

[Real Hero]

Thanks for that. Australian representative was very clear in her statements and how much this whole situations disgusts the country.

I don't understand what Luxenbourg says, I think it's french

you can set it to English

 

[Amir0x]

reminds me of...

Spoiler

The Ballot card used by the Nazis to let Austria "vote" about whether to join the 3rd Reich or not. In case you were wonderin: "Ja" means yes.

yo fuck checking nein, jackbooted thugs visit you in the night after that shit. better to flee

 

[Partial Gamification]

Thanks for that. Australian representative was very clear in her statements and how much this whole situations disgusts the country.

I don't understand what Luxenbourg says, I think it's french

There are a few available languages, lower-right of just below player, there is a drop-down menu.

 

[raindoc]

why do people dismiss conspiracies when things like hte bay of pigs and gulf of tonkin happened? When we know the C.I.A. do many covert things? when there is a black budget and black budget and blkack ops.

because for every conspiracy theory that turned out to be true, there's a gazillion that didn't.

Especially when the mainstream media all says the same thing as though they get their "news" from the same source as though it was some propoganda machine.

or as though it's the only not-borderline-stupi-thing to report without making stuff up.

 

[Nivash]

UN Security Council now on:
http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/security-council-ukraine/1686152121001

We have definitive proof, that there at least were extremely evil people thinking up extremely evil things.

"Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba (TS)" aka Operation Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

..."but this was 50 years ago. Noone would think any of that up nowadays and noone would ever do anything like that, because it's super evil. Remember, we™ are the good guys™"...

Op Northwoods is and will always be a terrible example of a conspiracy because

1) It was a contingency plan that was considered so abhorrent that it wasn't even allowed to exist as such. Even if it had been accepted it would just have joined the other myriad of contingency plans that would never put into action, like the plans to invade Canada. It wouldn't, as some people suggest, have been put into action immideately.

2) It was declassified and made public willingly by the US government itself. It wasn't even hidden so much as plain forgotten about.

 

[Chariot]

you can set it to English

There are a few available languages, lower-right of just below player, there is a drop-down menu.

Oh wow. I'm blind and dumb, thank you.

 

[MaxwellGames]

you dont need tinfoil hats, this is reality and these things happen before and it will happen again. Its better to discuss and ask all questions and be skeptical than to accept what everybody is telling you.

This case is pretty damn cut and dry.

I don't put a lot of faith in anything conspiracy theory.. but a LARGE majority is just pure bullshit.

 

[commedieu]

Oh wow. I'm blind and dumb, thank you.

but, you can type. don't beat yerself up bud.

 

[Stinkles]

Their is something going on here though. I think the allies(countries against terrorism) are fucking those countries up without due. No fucking way with time zones and all that stuff, Israel just decide to fuck shit up a hour or two after news start reporting of a shot down jet.

Distraction is the greatest weapon.

and now this thread has just completely gone to shit.

 

[MaxwellGames]

Their is something going on here though. I think the allies(countries against terrorism) are fucking those countries up without due. No fucking way with time zones and all that stuff, Israel just decide to fuck shit up a hour or two after news start reporting of a shot down jet.

Distraction is the greatest weapon.

 

[mikeyw85]

Op Northwoods is and will always be a terrible example of a conspiracy because

1) It was a contingency plan that was considered so abhorrent that it wasn't even allowed to exist as such. Even if it had been accepted it would just have joined the other myriad of contingency plans that would never put into action, like the plans to invade Canada. It wouldn't, as some people suggest, have been put into action immideately.

2) It was declassified and made public willingly by the US government itself. It wasn't even hidden so much as plain forgotten about.

1) So abhorrent by Kennedy, but maybe not by others. It was a serious suggestion put on the table.

2) Well, it became irrelevant over time.

 

[jimi_dini]

Op Northwoods is and will always be a terrible example of a conspiracy because

That's not the point. The point is that part of the US government (Pentagon JCS) thought all of this shit up. Just because it's said that none of it ever happened doesn't change that fact. That's how far that body (not some single individual) was willing to go. It gives you some insight on how those people see the regular population and humans in general.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Their is something going on here though. I think the allies(countries against terrorism) are fucking those countries up without due. No fucking way with time zones and all that stuff, Israel just decide to fuck shit up a hour or two after news start reporting of a shot down jet.

Distraction is the greatest weapon.

So the evidence you are putting forward to support your claim that there is a global conspiracy involving the murder of 298 people is time zones?

That's not the point. The point is that part of the US government (Pentagon JCS) thought all of this shit up. Just because it's said that none of it ever happened doesn't change that fact. That's how far that body (not some single individual) was willing to go.

Thought crimes, yo.

 

[marrec]

So the evidence you are putting forward to support your claim that there is a global conspiracy involving the murder of 298 people is time zones?

No no no... Time Zones are IN ON IT.

Think about it, how the fuck do Time Zones even make sense? They created Time Zones specifically for this conspiracy.

This goes fucking deep man.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

That's not the point. The point is that part of the US government (Pentagon JCS) thought all of this shit up. Just because it's said that none of it ever happened doesn't change that fact. That's how far that body (not some single individual) was willing to go.

What's more abhorrent? The thoughts of some people 50 years ago or the actual act of Russia-backed goons shooting down a plane of innocents.