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[emalord]

I know, I could search the web and have some answers to my question but a forum like this can say a lot, with fresh news included

I am european and REALLY liked Bowling a Columbine, Fahrenheit 9/11 and Sicko
I think these movies-documentaries touched some delicate themes for those living in the US

That said, it is also obvious that they all were a one-way product, not dealing enough with the counterparts. In other words, Moore probably tries too hard to sell its vision of truth leaving a little too few room for "maybes"

This thread was born to ask America-GAF, how much he is a controversial person in the US. I guess he gets a lot of hate but are his words also respected by many?

I'm writing from my phone so please pardon some possible poor choice of words and poor clarity

 

[sn00zer]

No, not anymore at least. He had decent intentions but he lost his message and influence when he became more cartoonish.

 

[Lime]

I could imagine in a country where one of the major parties are in stubborn denial of climate change, prioritize gun ownership above the deaths of children, hate the poor, protects exploitative corporations, hate women's rights, hate non-White people, advocate war over diplomacy, hate social equality, subscribe to utopian free market Invisible hand bullshit, are okay with torture, don't consider non-Americans to be human beings worthy of due process, are okay with mass surveillance, and so forth, that a guy like Michael Moore and his viewpoints would meet heavy opposition and extreme effort to be shut down. His antics and rhetorics probably deluded the message and themes he tried to get across, but I don't blame him for not succeeding in getting it across with the way things are here in the US.

But I'm non-American, so what do I know.

 

[Slayven]

I can't remember the last time I heard anything from or about him.

 

[emalord]

No, not anymore at least. He had decent intentions but he lost his message and influence when he became more cartoonish.

At which point did he became cartoonish?
I remember in Sicko, Cuba looked like the Paradise of health-care, while it was obvious that Fidel had all the interest in making it look like that, serving a rich dish to Moore camera

But instead of cartoonish I would say that that part was quite disrespectful of "our" common sense

 

[emalord]

I could imagine in a country where one of the major parties are in stubborn denial of climate change, prioritize gun ownership above the deaths of children, hate the poor, protects exploitative corporations, hate women's rights, hate non-White people, advocate war over diplomacy, hate social equality, subscribe to utopian free market Invisible hand bullshit, are okay with torture, don't consider non-Americans to be human beings worthy of due process, are okay with mass surveillance, and so forth, that a guy like Michael Moore and his viewpoints would meet heavy opposition and extreme effort to be shut down. His antics and rhetorics probably deluded the message and themes he tried to get across, but I don't blame him for not succeeding in getting it across with the way things are here in the US.

But I'm non-American, so what do I know.

My opinion is that any country deserves a counter-voice. It enriches freedom and democracy even when it's wrong
Moore is the counter-culture in a really weird country and I like him just for being that

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Welcome to a decade ago? He hasn't been relevant for a while.

 

[Neoweee]

I know, I could search the web and have some answers to my question but a forum like this can say a lot, with fresh news included

I am european and REALLY liked Bowling a Columbine, Fahrenheit 9/11 and Sicko
I think these movies-documentaries touched some delicate themes for those living in the US

That said, it is also obvious that they all were a one-way product, not dealing enough with the counterparts. In other words, Moore probably tries too hard to sell its vision of truth leaving a little too few room for "maybes"

This thread was born to ask America-GAF, how much he is a controversial person in the US. I guess he gets a lot of hate but are his words also respected by many?

I'm writing from my phone so please pardon some possible poor choice of words and poor clarity

His first few movies were good, but Dude Where's My Country? (book) lost it for me. I lost complete respect for him when he tried to argue that keeping Bush in Air Force One on September 11th was a mistake because... planes, or something?

He turned into a complete blowhard, and has exactly the issue that you brought up that I bolded. He is not intellectually honest.

 

[aku:jiki]

I am european too, but I feel like the release dates of the movies mentioned in the OP should give you some kind of hint as to how relevant he is today. Sicko was his least talked-about movie and even that is 8 years old. He's irrelevant now.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I wouldn't say he gets a lot of anything anymore. He's just not really talked about. Even here in Michigan where he was something of a local celebrity over a decade ago.

 

[Blue Lou]

Moore is prescient: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w211KOQ5BMI&t=64

 

[emalord]

I wouldn't say he gets a lot of anything anymore. He's just not really talked about. Even here in Michigan where he was something of a local celebrity over a decade ago.

Mmmh that's somehow a sad news

Is there a new voice in the US? Or maybe social networks are now spreading voices of criticism when needed??

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Mmmh that's somehow a sad news

Is there a new voice in the US? Or maybe social networks are now spreading voices of criticism when needed??

daily show & colbert report kinda took that baton for a long while.

Al Franken, the SNL comedian who battled against the right at same time as moore got voted into the senate too.

 

[Madness]

I could imagine in a country where one of the major parties are in stubborn denial of climate change, prioritize gun ownership above the deaths of children, hate the poor, protects exploitative corporations, hate women's rights, hate non-White people, advocate war over diplomacy, hate social equality, subscribe to utopian free market Invisible hand bullshit, are okay with torture, don't consider non-Americans to be human beings worthy of due process, are okay with mass surveillance, and so forth, that a guy like Michael Moore and his viewpoints would meet heavy opposition and extreme effort to be shut down. His antics and rhetorics probably deluded the message and themes he tried to get across, but I don't blame him for not succeeding in getting it across with the way things are here in the US.

But I'm non-American, so what do I know.

This is perhaps one of the most generalized and somewhat BS-filled anti-American posts I've read in GAF. I'm not in the US either, but almost all of your 'points' are not exclusive to the United States nor are they representative of the people. I can ascribe almost every single point of yours to various European countries (which I am assuming you're from).

Give it 20 more years, we'll see where Europe is and where the US is. The pendulum is swinging back in many countries in Europe.

Back to OP, Michael Moore had great reach with those films but he essentially just became somewhat of a parody. Now no one really takes him seriously on the right or left. Bowling for Columbine, Fahrenheit 9/11 were really well done films. It's a shame. I think the last time I even remember him was during Occupy Wall Street?

 

[Duracelllll]

one of the major parties are in stubborn denial of climate change, prioritize gun ownership above the deaths of children, hate the poor, protects exploitative corporations, hate women's rights, hate non-White people, advocate war over diplomacy, hate social equality, subscribe to utopian free market Invisible hand bullshit, are okay with torture, don't consider non-Americans to be human beings worthy of due process, are okay with mass surveillance, and so forth

Lol. Just needed the words trickle down economics along side the utopian free market bullshit

 

[komplanen]

He's currently making a documentary about the American school system. I know because this summer he filmed here in Finland where our system compares favourably to almost any other.

If he falls back to shouting in a megaphone and carrying around comical bags of fake money then who cares about him? But if he progresses beyond the caricatyre he is then maybe I'll watch his movie.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I can't remember the last time I heard anything from or about him.

.

 

[gdt]

daily show & colbert report kinda took that baton for a long while.

Al Franken, the SNL comedian who battled against the right at same time as moore got voted into the senate too.

John Oliver is that dude now I think. He's actually been affecting real change too.

 

[PhoenixDark]

In hindsight you realize his films are full of bad arguments and errors. The fact that he's had virtually nothing to say during the Obama years is quite telling to me. Bush was good business for a lot of leftist media yet there seems to be less marketable outrage with Obama despite him continuing multiple Bush policies. BTW this is not me arguing Obama=Bush, obviously I think Obama is a far superior president.

 

[Somnid]

I think the average person is relatively suspect of anything he produces. He pushes a very half-baked and specific agenda and comes off as a huge asshole. Even people who agree on some issues aren't fond of him. There's no shortage of dissenting voices though, he's just notable for a his abrasive style but others are better researched.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

John Oliver is that dude now I think. He's actually been affecting real change too.

Yeah, he's surprisingly effective. Weird to see as I always just think of him as a guy who was crap at stand-up from his UK days. He's doing very well now.

Will be interesting to see how Noah does with Daily Show over the next year.

I think the average person is relatively suspect of anything he produces. He pushes a very half-baked and specific agenda and comes off as a huge asshole. Even people who agree on some issues aren't fond of him. There's no shortage of dissenting voices though, he's just notable for a his abrasive style but others are better researched.

Yeah, Al Franken was always a lot more interesting to me. Like 20 years on I don't think anyone ever found any substantive factual errors in "Rush Limbaugh is a big fat idiot and other observations" or 10 years on with "Lying liars and the lies they tell".

I still think Bowling for Columbine was huge eye-opener though, but sadly there's been little long term effect for any pro-gun control media.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Yeah, he's surprisingly effective. Weird to see as I always just think of him as a guy who was crap at stand-up from his UK days. He's doing very well now.

Will be interesting to see how Noah does with Daily Show over the next year.

New Daily Show on the 28th..

 

[emalord]

He had some points tho

Limiting the selling of weapons means limiting weapon-based offences, hence the need of weapon-based defence

Free health-care makes sense too: we pay for health-care in our taxes and its free when we need it. Its that simple. My mother is a housewife, never worked outside of it. She had cancer about two years ago and was cured 100% free. Doctors told me she costed to my country approximately 40.000€. We all paied it as a community. That's how it works.
Of course, when immigrants come here and get free hospitalization at day1, for free, I get a little irked, but I can stand it

 

[outunderthestars]

No, not anymore at least. He had decent intentions but he lost his message and influence when he became more cartoonish.

Pretty much this. He just seemed to ratchet up the rhetoric to the point that I simply don't trust him anymore.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Generally agree with what he says, never agree with how he says it.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

New Daily Show on the 28th..

Cheers, after I posted I decided I was being lazy and looked it up lol.

 

[Jinaar]

John Oliver has more influence these days.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I could imagine in a country where one of the major parties are in stubborn denial of climate change, prioritize gun ownership above the deaths of children, hate the poor, protects exploitative corporations, hate women's rights, hate non-White people, advocate war over diplomacy, hate social equality, subscribe to utopian free market Invisible hand bullshit, are okay with torture, don't consider non-Americans to be human beings worthy of due process, are okay with mass surveillance, and so forth, that a guy like Michael Moore and his viewpoints would meet heavy opposition and extreme effort to be shut down. His antics and rhetorics probably deluded the message and themes he tried to get across, but I don't blame him for not succeeding in getting it across with the way things are here in the US.

But I'm non-American, so what do I know.

To be fair, I'm sure most of your points could apply to political parties or noteworthy figures in most major Western nations. Here in the UK the third biggest party by number of votes is an awful party called UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party) who wants to close our borders to immigrants, consider sending second-generation migrant Britons back to their ancestors' place of origin and dissociate us from the EU. They're fucking awful and bigoted and full of hate, but they know the right buttons to push and managed to scare up a very good showing of voters at the general election a few months ago.

 

[FriedConsole]

His influence on documentary film making has been disastrous. Every doc now is just a reality show about the filmmaker. The subject matter is incidental. Before him you just heard an off camera voice every once and a while. Lots of self centered people have made some shitty documentaries. I don't think the world needs anymore middle America safari docs that Moore has wrought.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I can't remember the last time I heard anything from or about him.

Yup. I'm not sure I've heard him come up in conversation since maybe a month or two after Fahrenheit 9/11.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

To be fair, I'm sure most of your points could apply to political parties or noteworthy figures in most major Western nations. Here in the UK the third biggest party by number of votes is an awful party called UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party) who wants to close our borders to immigrants, consider sending second-generation migrant Britons back to their ancestors' place of origin and dissociate us from the EU. They're fucking awful and bigoted and full of hate, but they know the right buttons to push and managed to scare up a very good showing of voters at the general election a few months ago.

US also mostly use First Past the Post though, and those republicans got elected under FPTP. In the UK I think UKIP only got a single MP under FPTP, and he was an ex conservative with considerable local popularity.

 

[ElectricThunder]

His new doc coming up in a couple months should prove interesting---but he's definitely in kind of a strange place in terms of how folks perceive, and how he goes about, being an advocate and activist for various things.

Honestly, part of the problem is how quickly things of all sorts have went down these past few years, but his docs can only come out every so often and are the usual means by which the overall public opinion on him and his latest causes are set---all he has is showing up on Maher's show and little else on Twitter in the interim as the world gets more nuts.

 

[Currygan]

I like Moore very much. Sure, he tends to manipulate a bit, but facts are facts and his movies are brilliantly edited and paced

 

[nilbog21]

still waiting on his obesity epidemic doc

 

[Red Mage]

His influence on documentary film making has been disastrous. Every doc now is just a reality show about the filmmaker. The subject matter is incidental. Before him you just heard an off camera voice every once and a while. Lots of self centered people have made some shitty documentaries. I don't think the world needs anymore middle America safari docs that Moore has wrought.

Not only that, but his films were often more fiction than fact. He edited speeches, interviews, and even patched together political ads from different campaigns to paint a political figure as endorsing ads they never ran. Nasty guy, tbh.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Moore got some shine off the collective frustration with Dubya and when that faded he didn't have much left.

 

[FriedConsole]

Not only that, but his films were often more fiction than fact. He edited speeches, interviews, and even patched together political ads from different campaigns to paint a political figure as endorsing ads they never ran. Nasty guy, tbh.

Yeah there has always been lies in documentarires since Disney threw lemmings off cliffs but he was brash in the importance of just making it fast moving and entertaining as the most important attributes.

Moore got some shine off the collective frustration with Dubya and when that faded he didn't have much left.

Yeah he has been quiet on Obama. Liberals get criticized for criticism against other liberals but it needs to be done. Some people juat want to win the elections because it is their team. Other people correctly want to see real progressive change.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Eh, on Obama I'd say he's more in line with the likes of Cornel West---both got loud nods during Bush's idiocy, but when they also made some racket on Obama's failings they didn't exactly have such a receptive audience by far and considering both men were quite taken aback even at the direction Obama's presidency went in various ways.

He's largely been very much characterized by the media and South Park same as most other notable "fringe" figures from 2000 up until the start of Obama's term---most folks are content with these type casts and won't change their minds barring some massive happening.

 

[Kyzer]

I feel like pop culture made fun of him as a character so much that people don't take him seriously

 

[BertramCooper]

Michael Moore and Bill Maher are so obnoxiously tone-deaf.

They delivered their arguments for progressivism in such a brash, hateful and condescending tone. As a kid from a conservative family, I found both of them completely repulsive, and individuals like them undoubtedly slowed my evolution into a progressive.

To me, both represent a very dark time for progressives and very ineffective methods for pushing progressive ideas. They're just kind of sad, mean people from a thankfully bygone era.

It baffles me that Maher's show is still on the air.

 

[Neo C.]

John Oliver does it better and more regularly (almost weekly). He also sets standards with his team by going very hard on checking facts. Moore is more subjective and feels now dated.

 

[ramuh]

The last I heard he was shouting at a occupy wall street rally about rich people or something.

 

[bill0527]

Completely irrelevant.

His fans love him and that's about it.

There's something to be said in the way you deliver a message. When you are brash, sarcastic, and come off like a jerk, you aren't gaining any influence except over your own audience. You're certainly not going to sway the other side. In fact, all you'll do is cause them to dig in their heels even further, draw the pitchforks, take up arms, and fight back against your message.

Its a big problem with people on both the hard left and the hard right in this country.

 

[Forgive Me]

michael moore has good intentions but is kind of an asshole

i feel like jon stewart and his ilk were much easier to rally behind so moore hasnt been very relevant for like ten years

 

[zeemumu]

He dropped from relevance a while back.

 

[NullPointer]

I have to imagine Sicko had an influence on the whole rampup to Obamacare. Anecdotally that was the only one of his films that stunned everybody in my family into wanting change, regardless of their individual politics.

Haven't really heard from him since.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Michael Moore and Bill Maher are so obnoxiously tone-deaf.

They delivered their arguments for progressivism in such a brash, hateful and condescending tone. As a kid from a conservative family, I found both of them completely repulsive, and individuals like them undoubtedly slowed my evolution into a progressive.

To me, both represent a very dark time for progressives and very ineffective methods for pushing progressive ideas. They're just kind of sad, mean people from a thankfully bygone era.

It baffles me that Maher's show is still on the air.

I think this hits the nail on the head.

Moore is the left equivalent of people like Ann Coulter—they’re practically just scarecrows the other side can point to and laugh or jeer at, and at a certain point they embrace those roles because it brings them more attention or money.

Insofar as trying to change people’s minds, their attitudes are completely unhelpful or actively harmful. In Moore’s case, it doesn’t help that he basically fits the “loud, fat slob” look to a T.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Michael Moore was a mistake

 

[OriginofHysteria]

Last I heard of him was around the time of OWS.

And that was a long time ago.

 

[NullPointer]

To me, both represent a very dark time for progressives and very ineffective methods for pushing progressive ideas. They're just kind of sad, mean people from a thankfully bygone era.

I think it helps to consider how the world looked to progressives after Bush won an election via the Supreme Court, immediately set up (secret) plans to invade Iraq, used 9/11 to stifle dissent as unpatriotic, even so far as to have the press secretary say that Americans have to watch what they say (something that helped propel Maher into his new digs on HBO) followed by an actual invasion of Iraq amidst the largest anti-war protests in world history.

Dark fucking days. Hysteria, fear, war, silence. That's the environment that crafted these voices (along with political sites like the Daily KOS), and a country in denial on so many fronts provided the opportunity for them to carry a message that really resonated with people.