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Anita Sarkeesian's astounding 'garbage human' moment at Vidcon

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Yes. You're comparing 3 rows of morons at a gaming convention to oppressive and bigoted regimes.

They deserved to be called garbage people the second they sat down.
First, I was rhetorical. I am holding Anita to a higher standard, because I believe her message more important than Sargon's.

Second, this entire thread is treating 3 rows of morons at a gaming convention (which it wasn't) like oppressive and bigoted regimes. One could make the argument they are oppressive and bigoted regimes. I think Anita would make that argument.
 
I don't like Anita or Sargon and believe this situation reflects poorly on both. And I think you must have to be pretty entrenched in one echo chamber or another to think it doesn't.

At Vidcon or any other gathering in which you are beholden to rules set forth to all attendees, Anita did break them. Objectively, she did. In this instance, she instigated this interaction everyone is now talking about. You might believe Sargon did, but had she not said anything, there'd be no articles about it. It would've been a tense situation for her, but not a volatile one. There might be a history and precedent of Sargon instigating, but that was in a different field, with different rules and an atmosphere in which both sides regularly take shots at each other. I believe Anita is at fault here for taking the low ground, and I believe it reflects poorly on her, her cause, and her as a role model.

That said, it's not like she wasn't in a provocative situation. I believe as someone who talks at length about her, it makes sense for Sargon to be at that panel. And if he bought a ticket he had every right to be there and to film it. However, given their history, him showing up at the front row with a bunch of his friends was a deliberate action to, if not intimidate, certainly pressure the panelists. And, in general, Sargon antagonizes her greatly. Though, on the internet... such occurrences, not simply for women, are rather par for the course. But especially if you believe you are blazing a trail. It doesn't excuse the action, but you would think activists these days could rise above it without mudslinging. Perhaps not. I know Sargon believes in what he is saying as much as Anita does, but in this instance it was basically her feeding the troll.

Am I holding Anita to a higher standard? She seeks to cause change and be a role model, an activist who sets the example. She seeks to uphold the mantle of third-wave feminism. And I guess I believe figureheads should prioritize their message above detractors, because all movements are going to have their loudmouth naysayers. It doesn't excuse the Sargons, because there will always be Sargons. If Malala or Gloria Steinem or Harvey Milk or MLK called someone a "garbage person" in front of a crowd, that'd weaken their standing and their message. And I'm not putting Anita in their ranks, but I believe she believes to reside somewhere in their midst.

So ultimately, Sargon does much more of attacking in general than Anita does, but Anita did more here. And I don't believe that pretext excuses her from being above the existing rules set by Vidcon. Nor do I believe it helps further her cause, as this is the example she is setting for other women who face this kind of behaviour. All it really was was her stooping to Sargon's level. Or, at least the level of personal attack diminishing the message you are trying to convey. When you aim to speak for a whole group of people, your message is bigger than you.

It's just a situation where each side is only going to dig deeper in their own camps.
TDL5LEQ.gif
 
Am I holding Anita to a higher standard? She seeks to cause change and be a role model, an activist who sets the example. She seeks to uphold the mantle of third-wave feminism. And I guess I believe figureheads should prioritize their message above detractors, because all movements are going to have their loudmouth naysayers. It doesn't excuse the Sargons, because there will always be Sargons. If Malala or Gloria Steinem or Harvey Milk or MLK called someone a "garbage person" in front of a crowd, that'd weaken their standing and their message. And I'm not putting Anita in their ranks, but I believe she believes to reside somewhere in their midst.

I would totally be cool Malala calling Sargon worse things than a garbage person.

Stop using Civil Rights icons to justify your lazy centrism. In fact, if you knew anything about MLK you'd know he was very much against moderates who pretend to care more about these issues than the status quo.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Oh come on. MLK wrote a speech about useless white moderates who are still a problem to this day when it comes to race relations and combating things like police brutality.

White moderates are a problem in every area, not just race relations and police brutality. They don't seem to want to rock any boats, and that lets the right wing take over and move the conversation even further to the right without an unapologetic left wing message
 
First, I was rhetorical. I am holding Anita to a higher standard, because I believe her message more important than Sargon's.

Second, this entire thread is treating 3 rows of morons at a gaming convention (which it wasn't) like oppressive and bigoted regimes. One could make the argument they are oppressive and bigoted regimes. I think Anita would make that argument.

lmao, what

do you know what the word "regime" means
 

RinsFury

Member
Jesus what a fucking badass Anita is. I know she doesn't have much choice at this point, but the fact that she continues to confront these fuck heads and not back down is amazing. Truly an astounding human being.

In the back of my mind I definitely worry for her safety though, these guys are fucking nutjobs.

The amount of hate she continues to recieve, even in this very thread, amazes and disgusts me. The toxic fucks that continue to harrass her truly are beyond redemption.
 

SomTervo

Member
This is interesting learning about that one vlogger saying they were purposely there to enrage. I was under the impression that they were just attending. I don't think there's anything wrong, despite their differences, with them attending. I honestly felt like it could be an act of good faith or even to learn more about Anita's argument. Shame if it really was for scare tactics... :/

A tiny

TINY

bit of reading will reveal to you that your last sentence/concern is the case
 
I don't like Anita or Sargon and believe this situation reflects poorly on both. And I think you must have to be pretty entrenched in one echo chamber or another to think it doesn't.

At Vidcon or any other gathering in which you are beholden to rules set forth to all attendees, Anita did break them. Objectively, she did. In this instance, she instigated this interaction everyone is now talking about. You might believe Sargon did, but had she not said anything, there'd be no articles about it. It would've been a tense situation for her, but not a volatile one. There might be a history and precedent of Sargon instigating, but that was in a different field, with different rules and an atmosphere in which both sides regularly take shots at each other. I believe Anita is at fault here for taking the low ground, and I believe it reflects poorly on her, her cause, and her as a role model.

That said, it's not like she wasn't in a provocative situation. I believe as someone who talks at length about her, it makes sense for Sargon to be at that panel. And if he bought a ticket he had every right to be there and to film it. However, given their history, him showing up at the front row with a bunch of his friends was a deliberate action to, if not intimidate, certainly pressure the panelists. And, in general, Sargon antagonizes her greatly. Though, on the internet... such occurrences, not simply for women, are rather par for the course. But especially if you believe you are blazing a trail. It doesn't excuse the action, but you would think activists these days could rise above it without mudslinging. Perhaps not. I know Sargon believes in what he is saying as much as Anita does, but in this instance it was basically her feeding the troll.

Am I holding Anita to a higher standard? She seeks to cause change and be a role model, an activist who sets the example. She seeks to uphold the mantle of third-wave feminism. And I guess I believe figureheads should prioritize their message above detractors, because all movements are going to have their loudmouth naysayers. It doesn't excuse the Sargons, because there will always be Sargons. If Malala or Gloria Steinem or Harvey Milk or MLK called someone a "garbage person" in front of a crowd, that'd weaken their standing and their message. And I'm not putting Anita in their ranks, but I believe she believes to reside somewhere in their midst.

So ultimately, Sargon does much more of attacking in general than Anita does, but Anita did more here. And I don't believe that pretext excuses her from being above the existing rules set by Vidcon. Nor do I believe it helps further her cause, as this is the example she is setting for other women who face this kind of behaviour. All it really was was her stooping to Sargon's level. Or, at least the level of personal attack diminishing the message you are trying to convey. When you aim to speak for a whole group of people, your message is bigger than you.

It's just a situation where each side is only going to dig deeper in their own camps.

Imagine spending this much time trying to craft a "both sides" argument that tries to compare a misogynistic troll to someone who calmly narrates videos that helpfully point out ways that pieces of media could be more welcoming.
 
MLK being misrepresented by history is one of the best examples of racism in modern times. Suddenly the black guy whom everyone hated and though was to extreme whom also ended up dead for it in the end is used by people as a tool to get under represented populations to shut up. Anyone who invokes his name for this purpose should be ashamed
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
The thing that infuriates me the most about these sorts of things is that...if you want to debate Sarkeesians message, that's fine. I don't agree with many things she says in her videos, or atleast not 100%.

But these alt right fucks don't care about debating her or having a real conversation in general, they want to shut her down. They want to say she should not be allowed to speak or give her opinion, about anything.

That is the role the woman plays to the insecure man, not just in current day, but all throughout history.
 
First, I was rhetorical. I am holding Anita to a higher standard, because I believe her message more important than Sargon's.

Second, this entire thread is treating 3 rows of morons at a gaming convention (which it wasn't) like oppressive and bigoted regimes. One could make the argument they are oppressive and bigoted regimes. I think Anita would make that argument.

the time you spent writing that worthless post would've been better spent looking up who those morons are and what they've done to Sarkeesian

but of course you probably know and just don't care
 
How sad are things in your life that you actually have to do this to someone. Disagree with her all you want but act like a grown adult ffs. These "men" have such easily hurt feelings. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and upsetting.
 

Nepenthe

Member
Can I also say I don't get the habit of people for clarifying that they don't agree with Anita in perfect lockstep every time they defend her from harassment?

What does that matter to the conversation at hand?
 

redcrayon

Member
It's just a situation where each side is only going to dig deeper in their own camps.
If one camp at a cyberbullying panel is 'my opinions about cyberbullying and feminism with regard to videogames' and the other is 'it's perfectly ok for a large group of guys to progress to attempting to intimidate someone in person after years of harassing them online', then GTFO with your 'two sides' nonsense. This isn't a 'both sides of the same coin' situation, one makes opinion pieces people are free to disagree with (with some points better than others), the other is a targeted hate campaign, now running for years, aimed at an individual for having fucking opinions about computer games.
 
I mean, imagine going to a speach by a teenage girl who got shot by the Taliban and dedicates her life to women's rights throughout the world, and being disappointed if she were to call a racist, misogynistic youtuber who makes thousands of dollars harassing women a garbage person.
 

Random Human

They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
Imagine spending this much time trying to craft a "both sides" argument that tries to compare a misogynistic troll to someone who calmly narrates videos that helpfully point out ways that pieces of media could be more welcoming.
A freaking essay-length both sides argument. Now I've seen everything.
 
Well, I stand by my opinion, you guys stand by your opinion. I've said my piece, carry on shitting on Sargon I suppose.


Btw, I wasn't saying Anita and MLK are the same. I say as much in the following sentence. But there are parallels between any two figureheads that attempt to seek change and strive to represent any group of who they believe are disenfranchised people, and that is what I was touching on.
 
Can I also say I don't get the habit of people for clarifying that they don't agree with Anita in perfect lockstep every time they defend her from harassment?

What does that matter to the conversation at hand?

Can't have people thinking I'm one of those damn SJWs.

Both sides, bitches.

/s
 
I mean, imagine going to a speach by a teenage girl who got shot by the Taliban and dedicates her life to women's rights throughout the world, and being disappointed if she were to call a racist, misogynistic youtuber who makes thousands of dollars harassing women a garbage person.

I don't care that she got shot in the goddamn head she's a woman and needs to behave like one, damn it.
 

Mesoian

Member
Well, I stand by my opinion, you guys stand by your opinion. I've said my piece, carry on shitting on Sargon I suppose.


Btw, I wasn't saying Anita and MLK are the same. I say as much in the following sentence. But there are parallels between any two figureheads that attempt to seek change and strive to represent any group of who they believe are disenfranchised people, and that is what I was touching on.

And while I get that, you still need your Malcolm X's, you still need your Black Panthers, you still people who will be belligerent in the face of unjust oppression.

You can't just sit back and take it 100% of the time. Sometimes you have to get mad.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Can I also say I don't get the habit of people for clarifying that they don't agree with Anita in perfect lockstep every time they defend her from harassment?

What does that matter to the conversation at hand?

I don't mean it in a denigrating way, just want to make it clear that even with people we disagree or have disagreements with, that is no actual excuse for shutting up their voice.

These cowards are so weak and insecure that they can't handle a woman having an opinion about a subject they don't want broached because they are snowflakes who can't handle criticisms of their established world view. Social injustice warriors is what i call the alt right in general, they are nothing but hypocrites and children
 

Big One

Banned
What amazes me about Gamergate is how chicken shit the entire thing. If the entire narrative about Zoe Quinn is true for example, is it really worth creating an entire movement over? What Zoe Quinn does in her personal life isn't really anyone's business other than the people that are directly affected by it. And if she WAS for some reason trading sex for good reviews, so the fuck what? What exactly can you do about that? There's nothing immoral or illegal about it whatsoever, you just move on and don't trust the reviewer on 100% of his word on anything. Life moves on. There's no real reason why it should affect you whatsoever, especially since a good majority of people that are in Gamergate probably don't even actively keep up with gaming reviews.

Same with Anita. If her videos were completely unfactual and she was actually this active monster trying to strip men of their rights, so what? We live in a free country where people are able to express themselves, including the turds that are active in Gamergate. Is it worth consistently bashing her and threatening her? What exactly is the goal here, to scare her off the internet? Good luck.

The 4chan culture has always been about bullying and harassing people over the years in general (the early days of 4chan were even nastier than the modern day, as I used to post on there when I was younger). The simple answer to this is that both Zoe and Anita are their new "targets." Before it was people like Chris-chan, who conveniently fell into obscurity as soon as this Gamergate shit came up. It's about pure, unadulterated, illogical hatred towards others for whatever dumbass reasons they come up with to bash them.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
First, I was rhetorical. I am holding Anita to a higher standard, because I believe her message more important than Sargon's.

Second, this entire thread is treating 3 rows of morons at a gaming convention (which it wasn't) like oppressive and bigoted regimes. One could make the argument they are oppressive and bigoted regimes. I think Anita would make that argument.
Consider that the three rows of asshats have created near 200 videos dedicated to harassing Anita Sarkeesian and that they're entire purpose was to derail any and all discussion that could be had and then try to understand that they have fanbases that are entirely dedicated to sending her loads of harassment on a minute by minute basis.
 

Jebusman

Banned
Well, I stand by my opinion, you guys stand by your opinion. I've said my piece, carry on shitting on Sargon I suppose.

So essentially you're not open to actually engaging with anyone, just merely state your opinion to the world and then "I guess we'll agree to disagree" the moment people call you out on it.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
MLK being misrepresented by history is one of the best examples of racism in modern times. Suddenly the black guy whom everyone hated and though was to extreme whom also ended up dead for it in the end is used by people as a tool to get under represented populations to shut up. Anyone who invokes his name for this purpose should be ashamed

Yup.
Called extremist at the time.
Persecuted by the intelligence community.
Labeled as agitator and terrorist.
Led marches straight into the opposition that included government officials.
Murdered

Now used by racists and "moderates" as a sanitized, white washed example of "civility".

It's hilariously outrageous
 

Nepenthe

Member
I mean, imagine going to a speach by a teenage girl who got shot by the Taliban and dedicates her life to women's rights throughout the world, and being disappointed if she were to call a racist, misogynistic youtuber who makes thousands of dollars harassing women a garbage person.

No. Imagine a speech by a teenage girl who got shot by the Taliban speaking out about women's rights having said speech infiltrated three auditorium rows deep of Taliban supporters and sympathizers who ask her loaded questions like "Why do you hate God?", and then getting mad when she calls one of them assholes.
 

Sanador

Member
Let people speak! It's a free country, where the free exchange of ideas is held as a human right. I don't agree with drowning out speakers on either side of the political spectrum. Anita has the right to speak as much as Ben Shapiro or Ann Coulter.

What has become of us if we cannot handle an opinion that is different than our own?
 

Mesoian

Member
Can I also say I don't get the habit of people for clarifying that they don't agree with Anita in perfect lockstep every time they defend her from harassment?

What does that matter to the conversation at hand?

When one of the more common points the opposition brings up is "well this place is totally biased in favor of her and if you don't lover videos, you get banned", you do occasionally have to qualify your feelings.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Well, I stand by my opinion, you guys stand by your opinion. I've said my piece, carry on shitting on Sargon I suppose.
Why shouldn't we shit on a guy who blames feminism for Elliot Rodgers' killing spree?

Btw, I wasn't saying Anita and MLK are the same. I say as much in the following sentence. But there are parallels between any two figureheads that attempt to seek change and strive to represent any group of who they believe are disenfranchised people, and that is what I was touching on.
And why do you ignore the point people bring up about MLK bashing the white moderates?
 
First, I was rhetorical. I am holding Anita to a higher standard, because I believe her message more important than Sargon's.

Given that she doesn't harass people, she already meets a higher standard than Sargon.

Expecting a normal person not to verbally lash out at someone who has harassed them for years is unrealistic at best, but thinking that behavior reflects badly on the person getting mad is really stupid.
 
Did you know there's a group that:

Makes money under the disguise of liking video games.
Actually hate video games.
Barely even talk about video games on their so called video game site.

And these monsters are never called out on it?!

Their name:

Giant Bomb
 

UCBooties

Member
I think the saddest thing about this whole saga (separate the human cost to the victims of harassment) is how completely Anita's opponents and critics have failed their own medium in their rush to defend it. Anita Sarkeesian and her peers are some of the first people to accept the argument "Games are art" seriously and engage with it as such. Art is worthy of criticism, and criticism can cover huge swaths of ideological territory, including gender theory, race theory, queer theory, sociological impact of medium etc. etc. etc.

Just look at film theory. Film is only a century old, and yet we have an entire body of theory dissecting the medium and its impact from hundreds of contemporary and modern viewpoints. Criticism and theory are part of a cultural conversation with and about the work and it influences the medium as new creators come and add new perspectives, or react to the current market or even to schools of theory. It makes for a healthy and robust medium. All of these people that target FemFreq and Anita are essentially engaging in anti-criticism, and they are willingly stunting their own medium by doing it.

I think that Anita Sarkeesian has made some mistakes in her videos. I think that she used examples which, while serving her larger argument, are misrepresentative of the work they are pulled from. I think she has used examples which may udercut her argument for people who are more versed in the context of the work. I think that she might argue that the examples should stand as representations of larger trends and any appeal to context is merely apologia.

There is a worthy critical discussion to be had here, but all of these obsessives prove again and again and again that they simply can't engage with her arguments. They are too obsessed with proving that she had "lied" or that she is a "fraud." If they could ever actually engage with her arguments in good faith them maybe we would see some nuance enter into the field of games criticism. Because they can't engage with her argument in good faith rather than as a vehicle to attack her, they undermine the whole idea of responding critically to her work.

They are, in effect, saying that games are not deserving of criticism. They just want their toys to be left alone.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Let people speak! It's a free country, where the free exchange of ideas is held as a human right. I don't agree with drowning out speakers on either side of the political spectrum. Anita has the right to speak as much as Ben Shapiro or Ann Coulter.

What has become of us if we cannot handle an opinion that is different than our own?
Some opinions hold more value than others.

"Games should be more inclusive"

"STOP TALKING YOU FUCKING FEMINAZI"


Yes, these both share equal weight and benefit human decency. /s
 
It's embarrassing how oversensitive people are when it comes to criticism of video games. This is not the sole area where it happens, and it is ridiculous every time.

I only know Feminist Frequency on twitter and it can be really stupid and embarassing sometimes. So yes, no fan of her agenda and i won't be and it's no wonder that not everybody likes her. Is not liking someone oversensitive?
 
Can I also say I don't get the habit of people for clarifying that they don't agree with Anita in perfect lockstep every time they defend her from harassment?

What does that matter to the conversation at hand?

Creates a sense of objectivity? I think people are too sensitive to the phrase really, it is used for even small conversations with no possible deeper meaning at all.

"I'm no fan of asparagus but it's not the same eating fish without it."
If the conversation is what goes well with fish, the fact that I don't usually like asparagus isn't really relevant compared to my recommendation of it, except to actually strengthen the recommendation since it's not coming from some crazy asparagus guy who recommends it with everything.

These distancing phrases really just strengthen their position of arguing her being in the right. Whether they care for her content or not isn't meant to bother anyone I imagine, nor should it.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Let people speak! It's a free country, where the free exchange of ideas is held as a human right. I don't agree with drowning out speakers on either side of the political spectrum. Anita has the right to speak as much as Ben Shapiro or Ann Coulter.

What has become of us if we cannot handle an opinion that is different than our own?

I'm not sure what you are responding to. Did you read the op?
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Let people speak! It's a free country, where the free exchange of ideas is held as a human right. I don't agree with drowning out speakers on either side of the political spectrum. Anita has the right to speak as much as Ben Shapiro or Ann Coulter.

What has become of us if we cannot handle an opinion that is different than our own?
Harassment isn't held as a human right. Technically Anita has perfect grounds to get a restraining order on everyone of these cronies, and if Vidcon was aware of their presence, they wouldn't have been allowed to attend in the first place. Both sides is some bullshit. There are more progressive societies out there outside of the U.S. that have hate speech laws and aren't some totalitarian nightmare. So the notion that every opinion holds equal weight and that we should tolerate harassment is some bullshit fence sitting. It's also only a free country if you are a very specific type of individual.
 

Mesoian

Member
Did you know there's a group that:

Makes money under the disguise of liking video games.
Actually hate video games.
Barely even talk about video games on their so called video game site.

And these monsters are never called out on it?!

Their name:

Giant Bomb

That's a funny way of spelling IGN.
 

Angelcurio

Member
His most frothy content is reserved for feminism, a hot topic for men who feel afraid and threatened by progressives, who they dismiss as “the regressive left.” He has more than 600,000 subscribers on YouTube. He makes more than $5,000 a month from Patreon.

Seeing those kind of People making money out of harrassing and from people who support that type of conduct is really shameful.
 

Gator86

Member
MLK being misrepresented by history is one of the best examples of racism in modern times. Suddenly the black guy whom everyone hated and though was to extreme whom also ended up dead for it in the end is used by people as a tool to get under represented populations to shut up. Anyone who invokes his name for this purpose should be ashamed

MLK being used to tone police and talk down to marginalized groups is the fucking worst. It's abominable beyond belief.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Well, I stand by my opinion, you guys stand by your opinion. I've said my piece, carry on shitting on Sargon I suppose.


Btw, I wasn't saying Anita and MLK are the same. I say as much in the following sentence. But there are parallels between any two figureheads that attempt to seek change and strive to represent any group of who they believe are disenfranchised people, and that is what I was touching on.

Can you give us a reason as to not shit on Sargon. I'm all ears.
 

mark-san

Banned
So you know he's a terrible person but still think this is a comparable situation. Okay, where does that leave things?

He might as well be a terrible person (can't say for sure, as i don't know him personally), but that does not make all his opinions automatically invalid, and i do happen to agree with some of those opinions. Compromises...maybe people would live better if they started to make it.
 

Mesoian

Member
I only know Feminist Frequency on twitter and it can be really stupid and embarassing sometimes. So yes, no fan of her agenda and i won't be and it's no wonder that not everybody likes her. Is not liking someone oversensitive?

Okay, fair.

So is your reaction to a.) stop watching it or b.) engage in a harrassment campaign?

We're not saying you have to like her. No one is telling you that.
 
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