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Steve Jobs comments on xbox in 1995

PresetError

Neophyte
Wasn't Steve Jobs a marketing person at the top of technology companies himself? Isn't he describig exactly what current Apple is when he talks about forgetting how to make great products?

I'm not a big fan of Steve Jobs or his quotes. The only thing you could relate to Xbox in this speech is how marketing hype without quality products is counter productive. But that's pretty obvious stuff.
 
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ROMhack

Member
Interesting perspective. I've seen it in business myself where those who meet KPIs (largely sales/marketing) get looked upon more favorably for future projects. The ones who create products, or even improve them, rarely get the positive feedback from senior management, who themselves are rarely designers or product people. This is sort of the way of the world in business and I think Jobs is on point here.

Sony is the same with their cinematic games, style over substance.

Also, Microsoft's product is Gamepass and cloud gaming, not actually xbox. Otherwise they wouldn't release their games on Windows as well, which is what happened in the 360 era

Either way, only Nintendo remains as a product focused company

I would also say this too. It's not that MS or Sony make bad products but they're not as focused on the product.

Look what's Jobs have created...iphone users buy only iphone and say Samsung sucks
It's the brand not the product

It is but I think it's hard to argue Apple is the same now as what it was when Jobs was on board. They really haven't brought much to the market that isn't the Apple Watch over the past decade.
 
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Aion002

Member
What the fuck is going on with GAF since that Xbox showcase?
The same thing that happened when Sony presented that road to Playstation thingie.... People get pissed off when the products they want don't provide for them the information or content they expected.

There is a defense force that can't handle the criticism, theres a troll force who is just laughing at Xbox failures and there are users that are just kinda angry with the direction that Xbox took.
 
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Neff

Member
I honestly wonder sometimes where the Microsoft behind the original Xbox and 360 went. Nintendo and Sony have gone through big changes over the years, but they've managed to stick to what they're good at throughout. I've always gotten the sense that Microsoft entered the industry without really understanding it historically (despite putting out some damn good hardware and software), but now they seem more lost than ever.
 
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Xbox is run by a bunch out of touch amateurs sadly. Time to bring in some actual adults.

I mean we literally have execs quote tweeting 40-year-old loser fanboys and just acting cringe:
EdvBlrZX0AQKqzk


And we also have them hanging around lame podcasts:

EdoiLwbXkAYJcOo


It's really pathetic what's going on.



Geoff's interview with PlayStation marketing guy Eric really just shows how actually serious and mature PlayStation takes it. It's night and day. Time to clean house over at Redmond


It's easy to think you are great when you surround yourself with sycophants
 
It never stops to amaze me that some people have problem with ms interacting with their fans on social media. it is such a bad thing, isn’t it. It is also funny that people are surprised that ms exects are interacting with their most “hardcore“ followers. Do you really want other companies not to interact with their fan base like some companies are doing ?

Why is it always the same people? Why is it always people who tell them how great they are? You make a good point however what about some of us fans who don't think everything is superb and would like to be heard. I'm fucking sick of some of these labelling people haters or not true fans when it's not the case. It pisses me off being called things like that. (Not saying you do that to be clear)
 

tryDEATH

Member
What the fuck is going on with GAF since that Xbox showcase?

People are still in shock and awe that Xbox just showcased 20+ amazing games that are going to be on GamePass day 1. They are just processing it differently, but I am sure many of them will change their opinion on the showcase in a couple of days when the adrenaline dies off in a couple of days. That showcase was a view into the future of gaming and it eliminated the narrative that Xbox doesn't have games. All of us in gaming community will be better off due to MS's approach to next generation.
 

Dr Kaneda

Member
How much do these AAA Sony exclusives cost? $100-200million? Let's split the difference and say ~$150million for arguments sake. MS can't afford to spend that much on 5+ games and gen and give them away for free with Game Pass. With MS targeting a service model approach instead of software and hardware that means they are aiming at smaller developments costs and ultimately that's going to have an impact on the quality of the games they develop.
 
S

Steve.1981

Unconfirmed Member
I agree with the sentiment that Xbox needs better people in leadership positions. People who are obviously, openly passionate about games. Nintendo had the legend that was Iwata. Miyamoto is still there. PlayStation still have Shu & recently promoted Herman Hulst. He was head of Guerrilla Games, has always loved PlayStation & is now head of Worldwide Studios.

Xbox have Phil. A gamer, yes, but he can't do everything himself. Matt Booty comes across as a salesman to me, but I'll give him a chance. I thought Rod Fergusson would have been an excellent choice to keep around & promote from within, but they even let him go.

They're all corporations at the end of the day. Xbox are the only one that can't shake the image of salesmen in suits running the show.
 

kyoji

Member
Halo Infinite will still be a banger and have huge numbers once it releases. But you gotta expect this kind of crap to happen. Just laugh maniacally at it. Its hilarious what some of these guys are trying to do.
Gavon with all due respect, i have no doubt halo will be a good game but not a mind blowing game that is pushing the narrative that was presented to the masses by xbox gaf and or MS's own PR. Thats All find and dandy yet and still but to say others are trying to sculpt this situation into something else is quite disingenuous XBOX camp did this to themselves, the other element about this whole situation is 343 shouldnt be shouldering all of this there are other xbox studios and from what we have seen so far much is left to be desired, thats not to say any of these games will be horrible but when you make the bold claims that they have and then come out swinging like this, its very clear that they will not be on the same level of sony or nintendo anytime soon. You have to keep in mind that sony and nintendo arent just sitting around waiting on xbox to catch up either, they are continously trying to improve themselves. Correct me if im wrong but Xbox as a brand should be close to 15- 20 years old now, enough with the excuses already.
 
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Reindeer

Member
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Xbox is run by a bunch out of touch amateurs sadly. Time to bring in some actual adults.

I mean we literally have execs quote tweeting 40-year-old loser fanboys and just acting cringe:
EdvBlrZX0AQKqzk


And we also have them hanging around lame podcasts:

EdoiLwbXkAYJcOo


It's really pathetic what's going on.



Geoff's interview with PlayStation marketing guy Eric really just shows how actually serious and mature PlayStation takes it. It's night and day. Time to clean house over at Redmond

Imagine PlayStation execs hanging out on some fanboy podcast lol. There is a serious issue with culture at Xbox and it seems like it trickles down to some of their development teams as well. You can never have high quality output if your leadership is so bad.
 
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While MS does not have a monopoly on gaming the same pattern has taken place that Jobs explains in this video, and it is just so incredibly evident.



Jobs talks about product genius" and "product sensibility" being rotted out and sales and marketing taking over.

Anyone remember Robbie Bach and J Allard? The guys responsible for the OG Xbox and the 360? Driven out of the company and replaced with Mattrick and later, Phil Spencer. Product guys (look at Allard's resume) replaced with sales guys. Mark Cerny is a product person. There are obviously people in charge of gaming at Sony who care about making great games for their customers.

Listen very closely to Jobs' words, and listen to the whole thing. The parallels are shocking. I've echoed similar sentiments on this board. Spencer clearly doesn't understand games. If he did, he wouldn't have approved Battletoads to look as it did. He wouldn't exude so much confidence after so many years of empty promises. He wouldn't have been "proud" of this past week's Xbox showcase. He wouldn't think he's succeeding because Game Pass is slowly gaining users while their biggest IP is embarrassed on a global stage. This the big problem with Xbox. The people in charge don't even know how to turn things around.

Xbox fans should be mad as hell that the Xbox division is run by bean counters and sales folk and not by people who care about making great experiences. The reason it felt so much cooler during the OG Xbox and 360 days was because guys like Allard were heading up the efforts. Get rid of Spencer and bring in a person who loves to make and play games. Someone like Graeme Devine. John Carmack. Tim Schafer. I don't think any of those guys would do it, but I'm talking about someone who fits that mold.

What you see also, and it's in this forum, are those same people aggressively trying to protect their jobs. They don't care about rotting out the company, as long as they could keep getting paid. It's happening in TV, film, comics etc..
 
Imagine PlayStation execs hanging out on some fanboy podcast lol. There is a serious issue with culture at Xbox and it seems like it trickles down to some of their development teams as well. You can never have high quality output if your leadership is so bad and incompetent.

I quite like that majornelson interacts with the community. Nothing wrong with it.

What was so bad about the MS show that's getting folks panties in a bunch? Halo graphics? Is that it?

A dozen threads lampooning the graphics of a game that is open world and runs 4K@60. Sure the textures were flat and shadows non existant, but 343 halos games have been lookers, I'll reserve Judgement until I see the final build.

Folks should take a breath.
 

Reindeer

Member
I quite like that majornelson interacts with the community. Nothing wrong with it.

What was so bad about the MS show that's getting folks panties in a bunch? Halo graphics? Is that it?

A dozen threads lampooning the graphics of a game that is open world and runs 4K@60. Sure the textures were flat and shadows non existant, but 343 halos games have been lookers, I'll reserve Judgement until I see the final build.

Folks should take a breath.
Lol
 
I quite like that majornelson interacts with the community. Nothing wrong with it.

What was so bad about the MS show that's getting folks panties in a bunch? Halo graphics? Is that it?

A dozen threads lampooning the graphics of a game that is open world and runs 4K@60. Sure the textures were flat and shadows non existant, but 343 halos games have been lookers, I'll reserve Judgement until I see the final build.

Folks should take a breath.

It’s actually like greenburger always tweeting console warrior bullshit. Or retweeting 40 year old xboxs who haven’t found their penis in years nonsense.
 

DryvBy

Member
I don't think that's what he meant but nice try...

If you actually watched the live stream you'd know the quality was shit so there's nothing wrong with him saying to watch it at the resolution/framerates that the game plays at.

I'm not defending them because the game does look rough and they need to fix it but c'mon...

What's it gonna tell me? I watched it on my lunch in 4k. Halo looks like a 1998 Nissa Altima sitting in a garage marked Ferrari.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Apple struggled for 25 years. Their first break into mainstream wasn't even their bread and butter Macs, but iPod with U2 ads on TV. Their biggest money maker for the last 10 years is a cell phone.

Jobs was also fired by his own board of directors despite being a founder.
 
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zaanan

Banned
Steve Jobs was an infamous asshole. He was also an incredible visionary without whom Woz & co would never have been able to get their awesome products off the ground. Essentially he was one of the rare leaders who understand that killer products and killer marketing are equally important, even though each approach is in tension with the other. This is perfectly illustrated by the fact that Apple foundered after they forced him out, and only became relevant again after they brought him back. So he has earned the weight that his words carry, and his perspective is just as applicable now as it was when he was alive.
As others have pointed out, this does fit Microsoft with the Xbox - their greatest successes in mindshare have been in the heyday of killer games (Halo, Gears, etc until mid-7th gen). Since then, they seem to be focused more on talk (marketing/hype/specs/etc) than securing killer games.
 

Agent X

Member
Anyone remember Robbie Bach and J Allard? The guys responsible for the OG Xbox and the 360? Driven out of the company and replaced with Mattrick and later, Phil Spencer. Product guys (look at Allard's resume) replaced with sales guys.
Get rid of Spencer and bring in a person who loves to make and play games. Someone like Graeme Devine. John Carmack. Tim Schafer. I don't think any of those guys would do it, but I'm talking about someone who fits that mold.

I just want to point out that Don Mattrick actually did come from a game development background. He worked on a lot of games for Accolade in the 1980s (including the original Test Drive, as I recently mentioned here), and numerous games for Electronic Arts throughout the 1990s and beyond.

Aside from that, your point was well made.
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Kind of a weird premise since I don’t think Microsoft has a hardware or even a services problem. The hardware seems pretty competent and a natural evolution of the x86 model everyone went to anyway.

Everything shown shows more of a problem managing game development than anything else. I don’t see how putting “product guys” in charge changes that particular problem.
 
Seriously? The guy has been dead for about a decade now and good job bringing up an interview from 1995. That was the year PlayStation 1 was released so yeah long before Xbox even existed.

Low effort and pathetic.
You just refuse to address the actual substance of the argument because the conclusion doesn't suit you?

I'm going to say your response is a low effort and a pathetic excuse for a response.
 

jakinov

Member
While MS does not have a monopoly on gaming the same pattern has taken place that Jobs explains in this video, and it is just so incredibly evident.

Jobs talks about product genius" and "product sensibility" being rotted out and sales and marketing taking over.

Anyone remember Robbie Bach and J Allard? The guys responsible for the OG Xbox and the 360? Driven out of the company and replaced with Mattrick and later, Phil Spencer. Product guys (look at Allard's resume) replaced with sales guys. Mark Cerny is a product person. There are obviously people in charge of gaming at Sony who care about making great games for their customers.

Listen very closely to Jobs' words, and listen to the whole thing. The parallels are shocking. I've echoed similar sentiments on this board. Spencer clearly doesn't understand games. If he did, he wouldn't have approved Battletoads to look as it did. He wouldn't exude so much confidence after so many years of empty promises. He wouldn't have been "proud" of this past week's Xbox showcase. He wouldn't think he's succeeding because Game Pass is slowly gaining users while their biggest IP is embarrassed on a global stage. This the big problem with Xbox. The people in charge don't even know how to turn things around.

Xbox fans should be mad as hell that the Xbox division is run by bean counters and sales folk and not by people who care about making great experiences. The reason it felt so much cooler during the OG Xbox and 360 days was because guys like Allard were heading up the efforts. Get rid of Spencer and bring in a person who loves to make and play games. Someone like Graeme Devine. John Carmack. Tim Schafer. I don't think any of those guys would do it, but I'm talking about someone who fits that mold.
You're making a lot of assumptions on how the division is managed and how they decide what is done/important. There really isn't a lot of marketing to it all. People watch podcasts, interviews and whatever and they take Phil or other peoples business talk and then they create sensationalized articles and people on here call it "marketing". Companies are never going to say something is bad or mediocre about themselves in the present or future. In the past, sure that happens more but not when you are trying to sell stuff. Even Sony says positive things when they had crap during the PS3 days.

There were many people in charge that cared about games. Even Don Mattrick was said to be a huge gamer. The people who left the xbox divison lately still post on Twitter all the games they play and whatever.

In regards to that battletoad example, there's nothing about being a gamer and liking/not-liking the art style. I'm a gamer and I think it looks great. You may not like it, most(?) fans of the franchise might not like it. But there's nothing about it that shows that if you like it you aren't a gamer.

Those two were not driven out of the company. I've read a Linkedin article from one of them a long time ago and he wanted to leave the company many times and then talks about wanting to do other stuff and work-life balance/family. Like even when the 360 was doing well, Peter Moore quit for personal reasons too. Founder of Naughty Dog and a bunch of other company founders often leave their company to do random other things too.

Gamers weren't ecstatic that his multimedia focuses but at the time making a $400 piece of hardware that has multi-core processors, internet connectivity and more ram than most devices under your TV to do more than just play games was arguably the intuitive decision. Sony was even trying to do the same thing, they just weren't making it a part of their E3 press conference. Being technical alone does not make you a great manager. Getting someone who understands the technical part will arguably give you better prospects but you need a balance.

People are upset Halo didn't blow them out of the water and upset that they weren't able to do which is make a baby in less than 9 months by using more women (and in Microsoft case the women are already pregnant). Microsoft should have something better for the launch. But it's not a problem you can fix by throwing money at it or just having better management.Things take time and efforts.

Phil also faced other problems where the new CEO basically wanted to sell off the Xbox division and wouldn't really give them extra money/resources to do things. It's like being in a rich family, and you try to start a business and you do a bunch of stupid things before which lower how much money you have to do new things as an individual so you only have what money you actually have because your parents want to disown you and don't want to give you any more money to be successful.

I'm not an "Xbox fan" I'm a gaming fan that wants everyone to be successful so I get better games, and I'm not mad. I do wish that Microsoft improves in certain areas, they aren't perfect. But the people getting mad for saying subjective things like "proud" and that they have "great" and "existing" things to show is absurd. Yeah you can think it's not exciting, but you shouldn't expect companies to be like we got some "mild announcements for you".

I think the problem with Microsoft is really their lack of technical people at the top/bottom and their lack of creative people at the bottom. They need more opinionated game designers/directors driving the individual games that result in better products. People like Cory Barlog. The other problem is that Microsoft needs a better business person at the top. Sony doesn't just bring value by producing everything themselves, they also bring a shit ton of value by locking timed or perpetuity deals. Microsoft is out of that game (so they say) and so the value to the consumer looks worse. People praise Sony for FF7, Death Stranding even though they don't make it and just paid so that you can't get it on other consoles. It's not because they have someone who understands games at the top. It's because they have a business person willing to strategically throw money at third parties like Don Mattrick used to do during the 360 and early Xbox One days (Ryse, Sunset, Dead Rising, Titanfall, etc.). They need technical people at the top that understand what kind of things need to be done so that all their studios can create games faster and provide a higher level of quality. Sony has many technical teams in I think it's called just Sony Studios now (worldwide studios) that help out all the studios get the best out of their games. The Sony ICE team who is arguably responsible for making Sony games look so great, is said to be hardcore tech people not hardcore games people (I can't find the article, might have been a gameinformer scan, but they said something along the lines of they were huge Linux nerds who like getting into the nitty gritty of everything to squeeze out performance). Mark Cerny isn't great because he makes good games or plays games. He's great because he's a technical person who understands what it takes to make a game, and can understand technical problems which he can then articulate with his business communication to communicate why it matters to the people making the ultimate decision for things related to hardware.

I don't think we need to get rid of Spencer, I think we need at least a more technical person advising him. Like how Mark Cerny got promoted and has more pull with Jim and all them. And he needs to be more of a shark. We also need a different strategy to expanding XGS. Most of the studios they bought also kind of suck IMO. I think that going forward they should build new studios so that they can poach the talent from other studios to run their new studio to built optimal teams from the ground up. You buy a company who has mediocre performance and hope that with money they will get better, and you hire new better people while leaving the leadership and everything below it in tact, then you are still stuck with all the mediocre employees and mediocre leadership. Maybe they'll work better with the funding but you don't want to improve low-potential employees you want every employee to be a rockstar developer (this is a term in development not referencing that company). Look at what Google is doing, they poach top talent and open up studios in development hot spots to attract talent.
 
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With that said some of what Jobs said back then can be applied today with a multitude of companies and products. While I never liked Jobs I will admit that he was right about some things.
 
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Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Xbox is like a very nicely decorated restaurant that has great friendly service, but the food is just so so.

Games are the core of the business, not the services or platform features.

Yeah I think that's why so many are frustrated.

To continue the metaphor, the restaurant has top of the line appliances and cookware (the hardware), a great menu (for instance RPGs by Obsidian that are highly anticipated), affordable pricing and great service (Xbox Gamepass) - but at the end of the day the food still sucks. It seems to me that the restaurant owners/management aren't effectively managing the kitchen staff so to speak.

I don't think accusations of Microsoft being a bunch of bean counters and sales people really applies here. Ubisoft, after all, designs games while managing thousands of people using a pretty bog standard formula without taking many risks yet their games are often the best in the industry even if they aren't groundbreaking.

Like how is 343 not even rising to that standard when Ubisoft is at least who I think of when I think "bean counters"?

So admittedly from the outside looking in with no understanding or knowledge of their processes, it appears as if though they have a quality control problem that starts with oversight by actual Microsoft management. It doesn't take a product visionary to see what they did with Halo and go "what the fuck?".
 

oagboghi2

Member
Starting to sound like some Twitter danger hairs now.

Your opinion carries exactly the same weight as the people that view this forum and those you talk to in real life or on other places on the internet.

No more, no less.
You're living in denial. If you think that public perception of these consoles aren't being formed on the internet right now, you are a fool.

I guess everyone forgot 2013
 
Sony is the same with their cinematic games, style over substance.

Also, Microsoft's product is Gamepass and cloud gaming, not actually xbox. Otherwise they wouldn't release their games on Windows as well, which is what happened in the 360 era

Either way, only Nintendo remains as a product focused company
Yeah, Xbox is the brand, gamepass and cloud is their product.
 

Tiamat2san

Member
Spencer came out after that embarrassimg Halo showing and said 'you should watch it in 4k 60fps, it's really good'. This is a guy that thinks res and framerate = next gen graphics, even if the modelling and textures are straight out of an early Xbox One game. Tells you everything about this guy.

Well, he won’t say « it looked like shit, sorry »
It’s obvious he will praise the game.
And it’s like children.
Most of the parents say they are beautiful.
Even if they are ugly fuckfaces .
 
Well, he won’t say « it looked like shit, sorry »
It’s obvious he will praise the game.
And it’s like children.
Most of the parents say they are beautiful.
Even if they are ugly fuckfaces .

I wish he'd just shut the fuck up. After the Sony event we didn't get a merry-go-round of interviews with Cerny or whoever is PR equivalent to Spencer at Sony.
 

Umbral

Member
Game Pass IS a product.
Your post exposes the typical boomer mentality that is common in the Playstation camp and it's funny that you have to present an old-ass video to make your point. It's as dated as your way of thinking.

Watch Grounded become a huge success next week and during the months after.
Game Pass is a service.
 
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