Valued Gamer
Banned
Its almost like Epic has their own lighting system they are pushing for UE5?
Right now for next-gen consoles, Spider-Man: Miles Morales has set the benchmark for the best RT Reflections for launch games, I don't understand why you'd call it garbage when Rendering engineer of Epic games considers it a technical achievement.
It totally is though:
From a distance is still noticeable:
You could argue its "squary", but thats just how the pole looks (as i said, not a graphical benchmark of a game):
And before you point out, people here are sprites, not 3D objects, which might be the reason why they don't cast any shadow (again, not exactly a graphical benchmark of a game)
It's Dictator and obviously it's just his guesses. I'm asking to tech data about your previous assumption; without that I imagine it's just your personal presumption (not the first and not the last)
sony releasing games on PC means they port the games to PC or more correctly port the engine, it doesnt mean they are not targeting the console with their engine originally, specially if the game is not releasing simultaneously ,
the original game may be targeting low level functions on console and then run on PC with not the same optimization, another example is that engines like unreal engine can have special optimization for consoles and not use them on PC when porting its invisible for the average developer but there are changes
The reason the game isn't releasing simultaneously has to do with business politics and not the porting. They would be working on the PC version of a particular game concurrently as they are making the game itself. Just like the AAA 3rd party developers are doing. Right now, a Death Stranding 2 or HFW would be getting concurrent development with the PC (even if it releases 6 months later) because the graphics engine is already ported to PC. ND is doing the same (this statement is NOT a guess).
That is true. But those optimizations would be needed in order to implement a certain feature that already can be reached on a PC - for example RT reflections doing much more than just proxy geometry or showing reflections within reflections like in WD:L. It would NOT be used to somehow make the console version a BETTER version than the PC.
Bottomline, when you guys talk about console being more optimized for a game is bogus because the console will never outperform or look better than it's PC counterpart.. so you really should stop trying to make it seem like optimizing gives the consoles some advantage over the PC because it really doesn't nor ever will.
You can only optimize so much with the amount of shaders, rops, cu's, etc. PC had outclassed the new consoles by several years already. Its not a bad thing, but it's the reality of it. You won't get the same performance with a $500 budget for hardware on PC, so it is cost effective, but it only goes so far.I'd argue achieving the same results on lower cost hardware, with considerably less effort, is an advantage for consoles. PC has multiple GPU vendors, each of which offer product lines spanning from low-end to high-end. A console game's developer can program down to the metal for a single chip, if inclined to do so.
Come one dude. Please stop this nonsense man.
Are you really willing to show cutouts of window reflections in Spiderman MM compared to WD:Legion that has already been proven to have reflections within reflections (i.e. the proper use of recursive ray-tracing)? Are you willing to show culled out leaves from trees compared to all the leaves available in WD:L? Are you willing to see half res of 4k (i.e. 2k) compared to 1080p res for reflections with the two games (i.e. higher resolution ray-traced rendering yields better results).
Bottomline, when you guys talk about console being more optimized for a game is bogus because the console will never outperform or look better than it's PC counterpart.. so you really should stop trying to make it seem like optimizing gives the consoles some advantage over the PC because it really doesn't nor ever will.
RT on Watch Dogs is no where close to the use in Miles Morales.... they are not even comparable.
Even on PC Watch Dogs is not a showcase for RT.
is this some kind of joke?
I think is perfectly clear what "optimized" means and I think there is no need to explain that "PC" does not imply a particular specification of hardware like the console name if you want to talk about bogus comparisons I have an old 486 it is a PC so by what you say it should be better for RT than any console
I'd argue achieving the same results on lower cost hardware, with considerably less effort, is an advantage for consoles. PC has multiple GPU vendors, each of which offer product lines spanning from low-end to high-end. A console game's developer can program down to the metal for a single chip, if inclined to do so.
So pedestrians don't disappear a few meters away from you like they do in WD:L
This
and this
and this
Yup. Ultra for you.
This is next gen. I saw the WD:L reveal and it was totally unimpressive.
Wouldn't surprise if the assets are higher quality than some of the earlier spiderman movies, which look far worse. Hollywood wanted these kinds of assets just a few years ago.
This
Hollywood wants that back, it shouldn't be possible anywhere. You could easily mistake it for a new cg film screenshot.
Yup it's that good.
gameplayOmega Supreme Holopsicon - if you are going to argue with me about screenshots, then eliminate that cinematic gameplay and photomode shit. I will ignore any comments made with these screenshots as I'm tired of these bull shots when the game doesn't look like that in-gameplay. I've argued this for 7yrs with the PS4 crew and not going into again for another 7yrs.
Bring actual gameplay screenshots with no photo-mode that cleans up shit or cinematics where rendering shaders at a much higher quality is not on the table. Show the game as it should be shown - while PLAYING THE GAME.
P.S. Wait till I get my hands on a PS5. I will take the screenshots that should be taken and even run streamed video to show all the discrepencies running a console game compared to a PC @ Ultra settings.
Guys, wanna laugh? See pedestrians disappearing to oblivions in that 3090 behemoth! (timestamped)
That 36TF must be doing some kinda blackhole inside the game.
You won't get the same performance with a $500 budget for hardware on PC, so it is cost effective, but it only goes so far.
It's not a joke. Look at the Sony guys and learn why I say what I say. It's quite clear they have an agenda of thinking their precious box is more powerful thanks to the dev's optimization code than a powerful high-end PC that completely dwarfs the console's power.
Cheaper performance for sure. Once you get the threshold of a rtx 2060 in raytracing, you can only do so much. That's a low end gpu in today's standings.... OoofI feel like that's all I'm really hearing people say, That they are getting more out of the hardware than they would on PC. I'm not hearing claims that PS5 will be regularly beating the RTX 3090 but it seems like that's what people hear every time someone mentions consoles having optimization that get's more out of the hardware.
At launch consoles give stronger hardware for cheaper and the hardware performs slightly better than a PC of equal specs.
Cheaper performance for sure. Once you get the threshold of a rtx 2060 in raytracing, you can only do so much. That's a low end gpu in today's standings.... Ooof
Not so much launch games, but the actual hardware, compared to PC hardware. Ps5 is like a 2060, xsx is like a 2060S in raytracing. Both will struggle in 4k, checkerboard rendering, high framerate etc. You can see this currently in COD or AC games. You can only optimize, but can't suddenly get 2070/3090 graphics with the same hardware you currently have.We don't really know what the threshold is, I really don't think judging the console by it's launch games is very smart when we have developers saying they have a clear roadmap of how they can optimize their game to get far better result..
It would seem that they disagree there is "only so much you can do"
gameplay
Watch dog Legions Gameplay
This
Not so much launch games, but the actual hardware, compared to PC hardware. Ps5 is like a 2060, xsx is like a 2060S in raytracing. Both will struggle in 4k, checkerboard rendering, high framerate etc. You can see this currently in COD or AC games. You can only optimize, but can't suddenly get 2070/3090 graphics with the same hardware you currently have.
Somehow people believe they will get 4090 ti specs from "optimization", and I just laugh.Exactly my point.
Watch Dog Legion ULTRA REFLECTION
Spiderman MM reflections
VFX and Don
Pedestrians not disappearing is more relevant than reflection within reflection a few feet away that a few feet later changes to screen space reflection or leaves, though I think later versions do have leaves in spiderman
edit: Though was editing new post, but it seems I edited original post. Regardless point still stands.
It's never less effort with coding for specific hardware. I've never seen this in practice. Programming for an standard API takes much less effort. That's what the API does. It frees up trying to figure that out.
Also, you don't get the same results. That's the big issue with the console warriors and why their theories break down into wishful thinking. WD:L reflections had to be changed via a .ini file to a setting lower than the "Low" in the UI in order for the PC version to match the look of the consoles.
RT has got to be the most Over rated and useless tech I have seen in some time. Honestly yet to see what the big deal is regarding it.
No understanding what it meansI can't believe we're in 2020 and people are still making posts that say this.
No.Are you telling that Epic is coding RT for each and every configuration where their engine will be available?
Not so much launch games, but the actual hardware, compared to PC hardware. Ps5 is like a 2060, xsx is like a 2060S in raytracing. Both will struggle in 4k, checkerboard rendering, high framerate etc. You can see this currently in COD or AC games. You can only optimize, but can't suddenly get 2070/3090 graphics with the same hardware you currently have.
Let's recap.
Someone said raytracing is over-rated technology.
I said ray tracing is indispensible for better lighting.
You asked me if I saw the UE5 demo. Implying it shows we don't need ray-tracing for better lighting
The UE5 demo uses raytracing to give better lighting.
I didn't ask you anything, confused stranger.
Have you seen UE5 demo?
No, I was told that Raytracing is useless and overrated before you butt in.You were told ray tracing (in this context: hardware RT) is not needed to have the said effects.
No, you do not need "ray tracing" (as in hardware with DXR like capabilities) to get the said effects.
No, Lumen is not using it.
No, its structures are not even compatible with DXR and the like take.
you can get up to x2 twice better performance for optimizing for particular spec many devs said so.Somehow people believe they will get 4090 ti specs from "optimization", and I just laugh.
Yes I do.
Add RT Audio and Shadows and it makes matters worse.
GPU resources can be better spent elsewhere.
You not being able to remember what happened less than a day ago explains a lot confused stranger.
Yes, and "ray tracing" meant "DXR like hardware RT" in this discussion, nobody questioned basic laws of optics.No, I was told that Raytracing is useless and overrated before you butt in.
Yes, it is exactly the point.We are talking about Raytracing, whether it's hardware accelerated or not isn't the point.
Well, in short: you are full of shit pathetic poster who did this:t seems you just don't know what you are saying,
Recreate the resolution, basically imperceptible to the eye from native resolutions
Honestly, I don't care what you or Dictator, think to see in Spiderman raytracing because "you know how such things working", but you are not a sophisticated AI machine which detects the graphic tech with your scan vision, and just saying WD Legion uses a far superior raytracing reflection compared Spiderman proves it. I don't know where the hell is coming this absurd convinction because there isn't any evidence on the screen, far the contrary . And the funny thing just needs a simple capture from the same DF videos to destroy such assessment. Heck, raytracing in WD is extremely limited in the LOD, it abuses of a mix of cubemap/SSR, in what absurd universe can be superior of something which appears more raytraced? Where is it supposed to see such superiority at least, and don't hide your assumption behind tons of techs conjuncture, as always, at leastjust shows to poor humans as us a comparison screenshot on both which proves your assumption.I did read it up somewhere.. but even if I can't verify what they said, I can bet a dollar to a dime that Dictator and my opinion is correct since we know how to replicate the reflections done in Spiderman MM. Since they don't mention any "code to the metal" to achieve the performance in them (how they look doesn't matter since they don't mimic real reflections in the first place), you would be assuming something more illogical than our claims.
I mean, are you familiar with late 90 PC? Where you don't have sounds or your game running in less colors and all that shit? On PC there is a fucking challenge to make piece of software works on literally millions of combination of HW. So yeah his bitching does not really mean much.
Watch Dog Legion ULTRA REFLECTION
Spiderman MM reflections
here's some more.
Rhetorical question - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Yes, and "ray tracing" meant "DXR like hardware RT" in this discussion, nobody questioned basic laws of optics.
Yes, it is exactly the point.
Well, in short: you are full of shit pathetic poster who did this:
It was DEDICATED HARDWARE RT that people were talking about.
Nobody has ever argued about exactly how it is done in software just that no hardware RT is needed to have those effects, as we've seen for years and now also with EPIC's Lumen.
The fact remains; it's not hardware RT, which is what everyone including yourself meant when saying "ray tracing" until that goalpost moved.That aside, the fact remains, those effects are done with raytracing
Citation of what "enough raytracing" is is desperately needed to accompany this amazingly insightful take.Lumen has the same issues as most of the solutions before it because it doesn't raytrace enough.
I don't know or care why Lumen looks great, I see it looks great and I know it didn't use any hardware RT.If you already agree Lumen looks great due to the raytracing being implemented...
Which hardware "go even better"? I need to see it to judge...then you agree that hardware to make that raytracing go even better...
I'm referring to Lumen structures, which are the same across the board, being, to put it softly, very incompatible with DXR.
UPDATE: better link
So they fucked up their software architecture.
They basically designed their software around the way that nVidia chose to do things...
so... Can I ask the elephant in the room, what does this mean?LOL, you're all taking the bait - all I know is, as a PC gamer - Man, I could run every single game from every single generation at Ultra High detail but unless a new card juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust released and I upgraded to it immediately - those max setting made the game run far more poorly than Console launches that just released a massive game - every time.
And even afterword's BF3 as example - looked glorious on my PC at high and ultra high details, couldn't run it and actually expect to play it on highest setting's however, even after maxing out my hardware spec's. That is the difference between consoles and PC's cross platform, don't mention how long it took in actuality - get a copy of Gears of war 1 or 2 or 3 on PC. Which when released, PC had nothing that compared to it.
This occurrence happens every generation, last gen with Horizon - no game on PC came close graphically and a couple of other console title followed that did this too - it will happen this gen as well. Not sure why other's continue to insinuate console's wont eventually have a visual masterpiece that PC's have to catch up with as it is an exclusive console title, particularly when history shows otherwise.