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[I collect VHS tapes]

Multi-player was rare, relatively speaking, from 1970 - 1996. The N64 started to get that ball rolling until online play birthed the new era.

What are you smoking? I owned a NES since day 1, most my games were multiplayer

Some notable NES multiplayer games:

• Super Mario Bros.
• Super Mario Bros. 3
• Mario Bros.
• Ice Climber
• Balloon Fight
• Dr. Mario
• Donkey Kong 3
• Contra
• Super C
• Jackal
• Guerrilla War
• Ikari Warriors
• Ikari Warriors II: Victory Road
• Ikari Warriors III
• Rush'n Attack
• Double Dragon
• Double Dragon II: The Revenge
• Double Dragon III: The Sacred Stones
• River City Ransom
• Bad Dudes
• Karate Champ
• Tetris (some versions)
• Yoshi
• Wario's Woods
• Rampage
• Tecmo Bowl
• Tecmo Super Bowl
• Blades of Steel
• Double Dribble
• Ice Hockey
• RBI Baseball (series)
• NES Open Tournament Golf
• Track & Field II
• RC Pro-Am II
• Micro Machines
• Excitebike
• Spy vs. Spy
• Bubble Bobble
• Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers
• Gauntlet II
• Bomberman II

Multiplayer has been huge since at least the 80s with NES. Then there's arcades of course.

Edit: this makes me wonder how old you are… if you were alive then you would have realized multiplayer was huge

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Not in my world.

Fair, but I'm talking in terms of industry investment.

Multiplayer was rare until 1996? What are you smoking?

Relatively speaking, as in relative to how popular single player games were, yes.

You never played Track and Field, Karate Champ? Gaunlet? Pitstop 2? Pong?

Consider the 3 types of games: Single player only, single player & multi-player, multiplayer only. There was a massive disparity in those 3 types in gamings early days.

The vast majority of resources, from the publisher side and consumer side went to single player. It's really only in the last 5 or so years where industry investment flipped to multi-player.

 

[zaga]

Poorly managed studio. Sounds like Luke Smith's poor management which goes pretty far back. He was let go in 2024, most likely neck deep in Marathon's development which most likely set the stage for any delays. Dude is a wad of shit, always cocky in ViDocs and such.

Luke isn't credited for Marathon on Mobygames and apparenrly Bungie did credit people who left. So maybe he didn't work on it at all.

I read that Bungie were making a Destiny spinoff game that was cancelled, Luke might have been working on that.

 

[clarky]

Fair, but I'm talking in terms of industry investment.

Relatively speaking, as in relative to how popular single player games were, yes.

Consider the 3 types of games: Single player only, single player & multi-player, multiplayer only. There was a massive disparity in those 3 types in gamings early days.

The vast majority of resources, from the publisher side and consumer side went to single player. It's really only in the last 5 or so years where industry investment flipped to multi-player.

Sure, i never said otherwise but the industry was built on all types of games, not just the biggest sellers of that time.

 

[clarky]

What are you smoking? I owned a NES since day 1, most my games were multiplayer

Some notable NES multiplayer games:

• Super Mario Bros.
• Super Mario Bros. 3
• Mario Bros.
• Ice Climber
• Balloon Fight
• Dr. Mario
• Donkey Kong 3
• Contra
• Super C
• Jackal
• Guerrilla War
• Ikari Warriors
• Ikari Warriors II: Victory Road
• Ikari Warriors III
• Rush'n Attack
• Double Dragon
• Double Dragon II: The Revenge
• Double Dragon III: The Sacred Stones
• River City Ransom
• Bad Dudes
• Karate Champ
• Tetris (some versions)
• Yoshi
• Wario's Woods
• Rampage
• Tecmo Bowl
• Tecmo Super Bowl
• Blades of Steel
• Double Dribble
• Ice Hockey
• RBI Baseball (series)
• NES Open Tournament Golf
• Track & Field II
• RC Pro-Am II
• Micro Machines
• Excitebike
• Spy vs. Spy
• Bubble Bobble
• Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers
• Gauntlet II
• Bomberman II

Multiplayer has been huge since at least the 80s with NES. Then there's arcades of course.

Edit: this makes me wonder how old you are… if you were alive then you would have realized multiplayer was huge

Thank you.

Never owned a NES but gaming since the 70's most of my childhood was spent with playing games with or against my friends and family.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Sure, i never said otherwise but the industry was built on all types of games, not just the biggest sellers of that time.

True. I just think in a general sense, they're right. Even though single player gamers are slow, and dangerous behind a wheel, they can still serve a purpose.

 

[Mengy]

Not in my world.

Multiplayer was rare until 1996? What are you smoking?

You never played Track and Field, Karate Champ? Gaunlet? Pitstop 2? Pong?

I never owned a NES btw.

In my gaming history, going all the way back to the Atari 2600, most of my time has been spent with single player games. Sure there were lots of multiplayer too, first in person side by side, later online, but from my perspective the gaming industry was indeed built on single player games as a foundation.

 

[clarky]

In my gaming history, going all the way back to the Atari 2600, most of my time has been spent with single player games. Sure there were lots of multiplayer too, first in person side by side, later online, but from my perspective the gaming industry was indeed built on single player games as a foundation.

Fair enough. From my perspective it was not.

We can both be right, as we clearly have different gaming habits my man.

 

[yurinka]

Maybe an average AAA open world game with loads of content. Certainly not a barebones piece of shit like Marathon.

As shown in the reviews of people who played the game (clearly not your case), Marathon is a very good, great game.

Unlike you, I played it for a while and saw it has ton of content to play it during hundreds of hours. I keep discovering/unlocking/learning stuff there minimum well over 100 hours after starting to play the game.

Not in my world.

Multiplayer was rare until 1996? What are you smoking?

You never played Track and Field, Karate Champ? Gaunlet? Pitstop 2? Pong?

I never owned a NES btw.

In my gaming history, going all the way back to the Atari 2600, most of my time has been spent with single player games. Sure there were lots of multiplayer too, first in person side by side, later online, but from my perspective the gaming industry was indeed built on single player games as a foundation.

I've been around since the Atari 2600 days too, and multiplayer always has been an important part of gaming since the 70s.

The difference is that starting more or less around the PS3 generation, the multiplayer that became popular was the online multiplayer. While before that, what was popular was the couch multiplayer, with two (sometimes more) people playing in the same console, computer or arcade.

In the 80s/90s to play multiplayer at home you needed to have friend/family member/etc at home. Now with online is easier to find somebody to play multiplayer. So MP became more popular.

Another important change has been that every generation the budgets and development times needed to make a game -particularly let's say a 'AAA'- considerably increased, because the amount of work needed to be done for a game kept growing. That meant that in the past many games included both proper single player and multiplayer modes, but over time less people can afford it and decide to focus only in SP or in MP to keep a reasonable budget and development time.

Other than this, over time the game revenue and playtime kept focusing more and more in multiplayer titles, so when devs or publishers have to choose between SP or MP, now they lean more for MP than before.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2026/04/09/checking-in-on-marathon-a-month-after-launch/

I knew that the arty style was complete dog shit, but what the hell is this??

 

[clarky]

I knew that the arty style was complete dog shit, but what the hell is this??

Looks awesome. I can see why it's not for everyone though.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

What are you smoking? I owned a NES since day 1, most my games were multiplayer

Some notable NES multiplayer games:

• Super Mario Bros.
• Super Mario Bros. 3
• Mario Bros.
• Ice Climber
• Balloon Fight
• Dr. Mario
• Donkey Kong 3
• Contra
• Super C
• Jackal
• Guerrilla War
• Ikari Warriors
• Ikari Warriors II: Victory Road
• Ikari Warriors III
• Rush'n Attack
• Double Dragon
• Double Dragon II: The Revenge
• Double Dragon III: The Sacred Stones
• River City Ransom
• Bad Dudes
• Karate Champ
• Tetris (some versions)
• Yoshi
• Wario's Woods
• Rampage
• Tecmo Bowl
• Tecmo Super Bowl
• Blades of Steel
• Double Dribble
• Ice Hockey
• RBI Baseball (series)
• NES Open Tournament Golf
• Track & Field II
• RC Pro-Am II
• Micro Machines
• Excitebike
• Spy vs. Spy
• Bubble Bobble
• Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers
• Gauntlet II
• Bomberman II

Multiplayer has been huge since at least the 80s with NES. Then there's arcades of course.

Edit: this makes me wonder how old you are… if you were alive then you would have realized multiplayer was huge

You do realize that this is the same logic crazy feminists use right?

I say: "Men are stronger than women."

Crazy feminist: [Lists 22 of the best female MMA fighters in history] "No, there's lots of women that can beat men up. What are you smoking?"

The NES had 700+ games released in America and you list 22 games that had multiplayer modes. As if that's a convincing argument against me saying "The vast majority of investment in early games went to single player."

Don't be like that.

Edit: Super Mario Bros is a multi-player title wtf?

 

[Guilty_AI]

You do realize that this is the same logic crazy feminists use right?

I say: "Men are stronger than women."

Crazy feminist: [Lists 22 of the best female MMA fighters in history] "No, there's lots of women that can beat men up. What are you smoking?"

The NES had 700+ games released in America and you list 22 games that had multiplayer modes. As if that's a convincing argument against me saying "The vast majority of investment in early games went to single player."

Don't be like that.

Edit: Super Mario Bros is a multi-player title wtf?

Arcades. Are you just gonna keep pretending they weren't a thing? Literally the first game ever made was a 1v1 type

 

[NickFire]

You do realize that this is the same logic crazy feminists use right?

I say: "Men are stronger than women."

Crazy feminist: [Lists 22 of the best female MMA fighters in history] "No, there's lots of women that can beat men up. What are you smoking?"

The NES had 700+ games released in America and you list 22 games that had multiplayer modes. As if that's a convincing argument against me saying "The vast majority of investment in early games went to single player."

Don't be like that.

Edit: Super Mario Bros is a multi-player title wtf?

Dude that's kind of a nonsense cop out. The post he responded to was you saying multiplayer was rare in those days. You were wrong. Maybe your actual claim didn't match your intended words, but respectfully multiplayer games were extremely popular back then. You just played while sharing a couch or standing next to each other at the arcade.

 

[clarky]

Never thought I'd have the single player crew on side in this one while we argue with Men_in_Boxes lol.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Arcades. Are you just gonna keep pretending they weren't a thing? Literally the first game ever made was a 1v1 type

Arcades were a small fraction of game investment when we're talking 1970 - 1996.

Again, the vast majority of investment went to single player.

 

[clarky]

Arcades were a small fraction of game investment when we're talking 1970 - 1996.

Again, the vast majority of investment went to single player.

Not sure on figures but arcade games were a large portion of the videogame industry in the 1970 and 80's.

Most of the big players today earned their spurs in that segment of the market. Would Capcom be where they are today without Streetfigher 2?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Never thought I'd have the single player crew on side in this one while we argue with Men_in_Boxes lol.

YOU CAN NOT ARGUE WITH REALITY!

You guys are insane if you think multi-player and single player investment was exactly 50 : 50 from 1970 - 1996.

You guys are insane if you think multi-player investment was greater than single player from 1970 - 1996.

You guys are insane!

 

[Guilty_AI]

Arcades were a small fraction of game investment when we're talking 1970 - 1996.

LMAAAAAAAAO

Here, let me show you a graph since you like those

 

[clarky]

YOU CAN NOT ARGUE WITH REALITY!

You guys are insane if you think multi-player and single player investment was exactly 50 : 50 from 1970 - 1996.

You guys are insane if you think multi-player investment was greater than single player from 1970 - 1996.

You guys are insane!

Nobody said that? I simply said that the industry wasn't built on single player titles alone. Your the one who shifted the goal posts to the NES and its biggest selling titles?

 

[clarky]

LMAAAAAAAAO

Here, let me show you a graph since you like those

Case closed.

I'm off to get my arsed handed to me on Marathon.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

As shown in the reviews of people who played the game (clearly not your case), Marathon is a very good, great game.

Unlike you, I played it for a while and saw it has ton of content to play it during hundreds of hours. I keep discovering/unlocking/learning stuff there minimum well over 100 hours after starting to play the game.

Its funny when people don't realize that defending a game is actually worse.

If Marathon were truly great, fantastic, one of the best multiplayer games of the last 20 years, peak and aura farming. then what does its catastrophic market failure imply?

That chuds or the Internet Army can kill genuinely great games? That the "hate mob" has that much power? Companies should be terrified, if that were true.

And any justification for its failure is just an admission of its flaws, shortcomings, and/or mismanagement; an admission that it isn't a great game, without even realizing it.

So, you either have a great game killed by the chuds...or a mid game getting what it deserves. Clearly, the useful idiots and reaterded media are choosing the former...

 

[I collect VHS tapes]

Never thought I'd have the single player crew on side in this one while we argue with Men_in_Boxes lol.

I can't tell if he's trolling or just that retarded

 

[Filben]

For a game that appeals to a niche/to hardcore gamers I wonder how and when they think they'll get their return of investment.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Ah yes, Pac Man and Space Invaders...notorious multiplayer games.

 

[ResilientBanana]

He was working in a completely different game that was cancelled. But yeah just make up whatever the hell you want.

Correct assumption about the guy. Maybe wrong game. Doesn't mean there isn't truth there. bungie has

Luke isn't credited for Marathon on Mobygames and apparenrly Bungie did credit people who left. So maybe he didn't work on it at all.

I read that Bungie were making a Destiny spinoff game that was cancelled, Luke might have been working on that.

eh, my point still stands, Bungie is horribly managed. But either way fuck Luke

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Nobody said that? I simply said that the industry wasn't built on single player titles alone. Your the one who shifted the goal posts to the NES and its biggest selling titles?

I'd argue the games we play today share more of their DNA with early console and PC industry (majority single player) than the mostly single player arcade cabinets of the 70s and 80s.

 

[clarky]

I'd argue the games we play today share more of their DNA with early console and PC industry (majority single player) than the mostly single player arcade cabinets of the 70s and 80s.

I'd agree with that (not the single player bit), but that wasn't the discussion.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I'd argue the games we play today share more of their DNA with early console and PC industry (majority single player) than the mostly single player arcade cabinets of the 70s and 80s.

The literal death mechanic is legacy from arcades. Die, put another coin as a punishment or stop playing.

Ah yes, Pac Man and Space Invaders...notorious multiplayer games.

Asymmetrical Asynchronous multiplayer, yes

 

[Bernardougf]

This industry was built on single player games? How so?

Most of my childhood was spent playing Sensible Soccer, IK+ Mario Kart. Goldeneye, Quake, Steet Fighter 2 Mortal Kombat etc etc

The industry was built on just decent games. Fuck off with the elitist single player bullshit.

Apparently you're too emotionally involved ... we can talk again when you grow up

 

[clarky]

Apparently you're too emotionally involved ... we can talk again when you grow up

Emotionally involved in what? You didn't answer the question.

 

[Bernardougf]

Emotionally involved in what? You didn't answer the question.

I'll let AI respond for me .. And since its off-topic I'wont mention this topic again.


Question: The industry of gaming was build primarily of singleplayer or multiplayer games?

AI Answer:
The gaming industry was built primarily on single-player games, which established the foundational experiences, narrative-driven franchises, and "backbone" of gaming history, particularly before the widespread adoption of the internet. However, modern industry revenue and engagement are now dominated by multiplayer games, which command the majority of playtime and revenue through live-service models.
ScholarWorks
ScholarWorks
+2
Historical and Foundational Context (Single-Player)
The Backbone: Single-player games have traditionally served as the primary driver for selling consoles and establishing iconic franchises like Resident Evil, God of War, and Grand Theft Auto.
Pre-Internet Era: Before pervasive internet connectivity, single-player games dominated the market, focusing on narrative depth, immersive storytelling, and technical innovation.
Sustained Popularity: Despite the rise of multiplayer, single-player games remain the preferred choice for over half of gamers in 2025, with around 53% dedicating most of their time to solo experiences.


Have a nice day. I wont engage anymore about this subject.

 

[clarky]

I'll let AI respond for me .. And since its off-topic I'wont mention this topic again.


Question: The industry of gaming was build primarily of singleplayer or multiplayer games?

AI Answer:
The gaming industry was built primarily on single-player games, which established the foundational experiences, narrative-driven franchises, and "backbone" of gaming history, particularly before the widespread adoption of the internet. However, modern industry revenue and engagement are now dominated by multiplayer games, which command the majority of playtime and revenue through live-service models.
ScholarWorks
ScholarWorks
+2
Historical and Foundational Context (Single-Player)
The Backbone: Single-player games have traditionally served as the primary driver for selling consoles and establishing iconic franchises like Resident Evil, God of War, and Grand Theft Auto.
Pre-Internet Era: Before pervasive internet connectivity, single-player games dominated the market, focusing on narrative depth, immersive storytelling, and technical innovation.
Sustained Popularity: Despite the rise of multiplayer, single-player games remain the preferred choice for over half of gamers in 2025, with around 53% dedicating most of their time to solo experiences.


Have a nice day. I wont engage anymore about this subject.

What a cop out. lol.

One of the first games ever created was a multiplayer game. Case closed.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The literal death mechanic is legacy from arcades. Die, put another coin as a punishment or stop playing.


Asymmetrical multiplayer, yes

Asynchronous, but nobody thinks those games were primarily multi-player focused. Nobody.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

What a cop out. lol.

One of the first games ever created was a multiplayer game. Case closed.

Yeah, but Zelda wad single player. Case reopened, relitigated, and reclosed.

 

[clarky]

Yeah, but Zelda wad single player. Case reopened, relitigated, and reclosed.

Shhh you. Your pitiful attempts to bring you and your NES into this will not be tolerated.

I see your Zelda and raise you this 2 player gem.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Asynchronous,

oh, true, mixed the terms up.

but nobody thinks those games were primarily multi-player focused. Nobody.

Nobody except the people who actually played them on arcades back then. High scores were a huuuuuuuuge deal, arcade owners would even host competitions periodicaly.

 

[yurinka]

Its funny when people don't realize that defending a game is actually worse.

There's nothing wrong on defending a great game from haters who are wrong and haven't played it, so they don't know what they're talking about.

If Marathon were truly great, fantastic, one of the best multiplayer games of the last 20 years, peak and aura farming. then what does its catastrophic market failure imply?

Learn to read, I didn't say it's one of the best multiplayer games of the 20 last years or something like that. I said it's a very good / great game.

And again, the data doesn't show any "catastrophic market failure". Despite not being in the all time very top hits league, it's performing like many other popular and successful GaaS did at the same point.

GaaS titles don't need to be in the top 0.01% of all time CCU Steam's history to be successful / profitable games. To don't be in that 0.01% doesn't mean a game is a "catastrophic market failure".

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

oh, true, mixed the terms up.


Nobody except the people who actually played them on arcades back then. High scores were a huuuuuuuuge deal, arcade owners would even host competitions periodicaly.

You have said some truly retarded things in your day (as have I) but saying a game with high scores is multi-player may take the cake.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You have said some truly retarded things in your day (as have I) but saying a game with high scores is multi-player may take the cake.

Arcades were places for social gathering. Most people went there with friends to compete against each other, either directly or by seeing who got higher scores.

This is the true, live gaming, multiplayer experience. But i suppose the social media kids of today with their social media games wouldn't understand

 

[MiguelItUp]

Honestly, the budget and cost doesn't surprise me at all. Regardless if it's strictly multiplayer focused it was/is a "AAA multiplayer shooter", so they threw everything at it. Why? Not sure, but Sony saw something in it.

Full blown bias aside, I do like a lot about the game. The visuals, the music, the vibe, etc. I just know extraction shooters don't have a lot of staying power with me, and unfortunately Marathon affected me the same way though I hoped it wouldn't. I know for a fact that if it was treated like an OG Halo title where it received a campaign, coop, and multiplayer, I'd stick with it a lot longer. I miss that amount of content, especially in a big release.

I love single player titles, and I love multiplayer titles. The issue is somehow the further we go into the future, a lot of games become more expensive to develop, more expensive to buy, but absolutely pale in the content department, and it's absurd. I really don't understand how over the years we've reached a point where a AAA game costs $70 but there just isn't a whole lot to chew on in the game itself. We used to have so many games that combined multiplayer and single player, added more game modes and content, etc. But nowadays we often get a fairly short campaign, and nothing else.

Mind you there are SOME standouts like Crimson Desert that has a ton of content, or Elden Ring that has a ton of content AND incorporates multiplayer and coop. Of course there are a few others.

But I think it's ridiculous that decades ago we lived in a time where it incorporated both single player and multiplayer, along with other stuff/content to make the purchase feel worth it, and I hate that the older we get the more that's just staying a distant memory.

Also, I'm really not sure what's going on with the debate in here, but there have been some incredibly odd perspectives, lol. I mean, I'm 42, and it's hard to not look back on arcades and games in the late 80s and early 90s without acknowledging majority were multiplayer games, or had some kind of multiplayer component. I mean, some of my favorites were...

Gauntlet
TMNT
Double Dragon
Rampage
Golden Axe
Xenophobe
Final Fight
Narc

Hell, the list goes on. A lot of those games were ported to NES and eventually Master System (and later Genesis) and brought multiplayer as well.

 

[NickFire]

You have said some truly retarded things in your day (as have I) but saying a game with high scores is multi-player may take the cake.

Maybe your definition of multiplayer is too narrow?

I'm not saying you're completely wrong. If it's a single player game with 100 people competing for high scores it's not what a younger person would consider multiplayer. I could go either way myself if I wanted to. But your earlier posts do make me think you have a mind block when it comes to non-online multiplayer still counting as multiplayer.

Oh the good old days. When I got next was a routine expression,

 

[MiguelItUp]

Maybe your definition of multiplayer is too narrow?

I'm not saying you're completely wrong. If it's a single player game with 100 people competing for high scores it's not what a younger person would consider multiplayer. I could go either way myself if I wanted to. But your earlier posts do make me think you have a mind block when it comes to non-online multiplayer still counting as multiplayer.

Oh the good old days. When I got next was a routine expression,

I frequently think about this with all the fighting games. I miss it and arcades so much. I'm so grateful to have been born when I was to have experienced that, 1 to 1 multiplayer over modem on PC, hell, dial up multiplayer, and so much more.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Arcades were places for social gathering. Most people went there with friends to compete against each other, either directly or by seeing who got higher scores.

This is the true, live gaming, multiplayer experience. But i suppose the social media kids of today with their social media games wouldn't understand

You describe the dark ages of gaming, a time of great suffering for my people, as if it was some kind of guided age. We do not listen to your lies for the cries of our women and children can still be heard as if it was yesterday.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

You have said some truly retarded things in your day (as have I) but saying a game with high scores is multi-player may take the cake.

It kind of was though. No different than golf or darts. Your score is independent of others actions for the most part. Where were you in the 80s?

 

[Guardian Monkey]

You describe the dark ages of gaming, a time of great suffering for my people, as if it was some kind of guided age. We do not listen to your lies for the cries of our women and children can still be heard as if it was yesterday.

Ok you're a bot.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Maybe your definition of multiplayer is too narrow?

I'm not saying you're completely wrong. If it's a single player game with 100 people competing for high scores it's not what a younger person would consider multiplayer. I could go either way myself if I wanted to. But your earlier posts do make me think you have a mind block when it comes to non-online multiplayer still counting as multiplayer.

Oh the good old days. When I got next was a routine expression,

I just think everyone is being disingenuous considering how badly most of you (not clarky) want gaming to go back to the dark ages. "Cancel all Live Service and go back to making the games we loved".

You speak on two sides of your mouth. I see you.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It kind of was though. No different than golf or darts. Your score is independent of others actions for the most part. Where were you in the 80s?

 

[Raven117]

I frequently think about this with all the fighting games. I miss it and arcades so much. I'm so grateful to have been born when I was to have experienced that, 1 to 1 multiplayer over modem on PC, hell, dial up multiplayer, and so much more.

I don't know what we are talking about in this thread right now,

But I do know about this. This was awesome. Or, to truly test your meddle. There would be one guy playing like SF2, and to be the next challenger, you put your quarter on the edge of the cabinet to indicate that you were next to challenge.

It was a hell of a time.

 

[NickFire]

I just think everyone is being disingenuous considering how badly most of you (not clarky) want gaming to go back to the dark ages. "Cancel all Live Service and go back to making the games we loved".

You speak on two sides of your mouth. I see you.

LOL what?

Why lump me into the anti-live service crowd. I'm a live service addict (sports, shooters, Diablo, etc.). What I am against is the trash they keep making instead of good games that people actually want to play,