Support NeoGAF

[KyoZz]

LMAO love this kind of coping, from the Tweet:

"yes the 768 million dollar impairment loss is scary for anyone who is a Bungie fan and wants their games to succeed. I'd also imagine its terrifying for the People working at Bungie considering how unstable job stability seems to be in the industry and really hope everyone working at Bungie is doing okay.

However I do not believe"

"Stop talking with your ass" ask the guy talking with his ass. And anyone thinking Marathon will peak again/higher than 88K is delusional, Sony included.

 

[Bonfires Down]

I don't want to play in a group with assholes. Give me a solo mode and I will look at it.

 

[ByWatterson]

It needs to have a full multiplayer suite and casual-friendly modes.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I don't want to play in a group with assholes. Give me a solo mode and I will look at it.

This might be the most important addition to S2. A proper solo and/or duo mode will be huge.

Edit: The poll in this thread was almost an afterthought. Interesting to see 23% have some hope. I assumed it would be way lower.

 

[falconhoof]

Marathon never made it off the launch pad.

This chart doesn't even show the whole picture. Destiny 2 was 2 years old by the time it came to Steam, so these D2 numbers don't even begin to show how much bigger that game was and today, in it's worst state, is performing within a few percent of Marathon's numbers.

Marathon never made it off the launch pad.

It's not a tweak or two from success. It's a problem with extra baggage of having a poor launch that people will remember it by.

Tweets from the game director talking about free sponsored kits won't bring the masses, they don't know what kits are and why a sponsored one means something.

 

[brokenwatch]

I'll play again when they implement your Jaws theme suggestion for the team with the most kills.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

When would be feasible for Sony to pull the plug? What happens to the people that paid for the game? They going to refund everyone?

Probably not, so they have to keep it going in some form. If they just shut down a game out for 3 months and didn't refund they would get torched by the media and wouldn't be a good look for the company. I imagine we see ps plus next. Maybe gamepass like someone mentioned. If that doesn't boost engagement then ftp as last resort.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

When would be feasible for Sony to pull the plug? What happens to the people that paid for the game? They going to refund everyone?

Probably not, so they have to keep it going in some form. If they just shut down a game out for 3 months and didn't refund they would get torched by the media and wouldn't be a good look for the company. I imagine we see ps plus next. Maybe gamepass like someone mentioned. If that doesn't boost engagement then ftp as last resort.

I think it'll just end up being playable but no more major updates, that's why this is all so fascinating imo because it's way past the point of a refund window. I think it'll just sorta fade.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

How about a real poll?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

They would have to rebuild the whole game to be casual friendly like Arc Raiders, give it normal visuals like Arc or Escape from Tarkov, add a variety of different game modes and things for players to do besides kill each other, and probably go F2P to get people to try it instead of just sticking with Arc and Tarkov

So basically spend a lot of money on top of the $250 million already spent while making the whole studio 10 times more efficient at actually making content than Bungie normally are

Yeah... Bungie is dead.

 

[Three]

I think it'll just end up being playable but no more major updates, that's why this is all so fascinating imo because it's way past the point of a refund window. I think it'll just sorta fade.

I don't know about that, seems like they're teasing updates and even mentioning support in financial reports. I mean Grounded 2 has less than half the CCU of Marathon and is getting a update in the summer.

 

[LuxFixxins]

 

[RPS37]

Make it way easier or make it a legit campaign. Hah

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

 

[GermanZepp]

C'mon marathon you can do it!

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

I don't know about that, seems like they're teasing updates and even mentioning support in financial reports. I mean Grounded 2 has less than half the CCU of Marathon and is getting a update in the summer.

May get a few more but if the numbers dwindle continually as they are, how can they keep throwing money at that?

 

[Shubh_C63]

Even before launch that's what I always assumed. Destiny pvp fans are addicted to this game.
In a perfect world all bungie fans would cycle between playing PvE Destiny and PvP Marathon leaving no time for any other devs game.

 

[Three]

May get a few more but if the numbers dwindle continually as they are, how can they keep throwing money at that?

The retention is actually good compared to a lot of other games. They normally don't dwindle continually to zero and they don't throw money indefinitely either. Look at Grounded 2 where it had a lower peak and went flat at around ~2k (much lower than Marathons current 13k)

That got an update in January and is getting another one in June/July. How long they support it I don't know but if Grounded 2 is getting updates with a CCU thats 5-6x smaller I dont see why Marathon couldn't get support for a year or more too. They're saying they will continue to support the game.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

The retention is actually good compared to a lot of other games. They normally don't dwindle continually to zero and they don't throw money indefinitely either. Look at Grounded 2 where it had a lower peak and went flat at around ~2k (much lower than Marathons current 13k)

That got an update in January and is getting another one in June/July. How long they support it I don't know but if Grounded 2 is getting updates with a CCU thats 5-6x smaller I dont see why Marathon couldn't get support for a year or more too. They're saying they will continue to support the game.

But it hasn't hit a floor, it's continually dropping numbers. There's just imo no way to spin a positive currently at all, maybe if something major changes and numbers jump but it's current situation is not ideal in any shape or form

 

[Three]

But it hasn't hit a floor, it's continually dropping numbers. There's just imo no way to spin a positive currently at all, maybe if something major changes and numbers jump but it's current situation is not ideal in any shape or form

Let's say it hasn't hit a floor (the graph suggests that it has) in 2 months its still 5-6x higher than Grounded 2.

Whether the situation is ideal or not I don't know (ideal would obviously be as high as possible for as long as possible) but the data shows that games get support with much lower numbers and retention. So when they say they're supporting it it's not farfetched to think that they will.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

Let's say it hasn't hit a floor (the graph suggests that it has) in 2 months its still 5-6x higher than Grounded 2.

Whether the situation is ideal or not I don't know (ideal would obviously be as high as possible for as long as possible) but the data shows that games get support with much lower numbers and retention. So when they say they're supporting it it's not farfetched to think that they will.

Not sure tho what grounded 2 is or who makes it but the issue is I'm sure it's a small team that is able to survive on a smaller audience for a smaller caliber game.

Bungie is enormous and if the game they're banking on isn't bringing in any cash which it isn't at all, it's not even moving the needle that'll be a huge problem. The fact that bungie is such a large studio is why these small numbers won't sustain it

 

[Kronark]

Sony has 3 options with Marathon:

1) Cut their losses ASAP. Finish and launch S2 and kill development immediately.
+ Cheapest option
- Burns a lot of good will / brand reputation.

2) Bare minimum commitment. Dev up to S3-S4 and see if things improve with tweaks.
+ Very low shot at some kind of natural turnaround in player sentiment.
+ Saves good will / reputation. Players will see the minimum commitment fulfilled and understand why the game just isn't viable financially.
- Incurs further losses from dev and ties up resources.

3) Massive pivot or relaunch. PvE campaign is probably not in the cards, but could pivot to an arena shooter, battle royale, horde mode, or multiple modes without too much cost.
+ Probably the only real shot at long term success.
- Could be the most expensive option and still not succeed.

Sony is somewhere between 2 and 3 imo, they look like they're going to continue with S2 - S3 development as scheduled. I don't think free to play is in the cards short term. It would piss people off and they already have a massive cheater problem, maybe they try it 6+ months from now in desperation.

The move of 100 devs onto Marathon could be read two different ways:
a) They're trying to massively rework Marathon into something new in a short term.
b) They've given up on Destiny completely and this is a temporary shift in resources toward Marathon S2,3,4 until they sort out layoffs.}

Edit: There is also a chance that player counts get so low Sony doesn't even get to choose. If it gets down to 500-1000 CCU with constant matchmaking issues the game might just die completely.

 

[Three]

Not sure tho what grounded 2 is or who makes it but the issue is I'm sure it's a small team that is able to survive on a smaller audience for a smaller caliber game.

Bungie is enormous and if the game they're banking on isn't bringing in any cash which it isn't at all, it's not even moving the needle that'll be a huge problem. The fact that bungie is such a large studio is why these small numbers won't sustain it

XGS make Grounded 2. It took two studios to make it, Eidos-Montréal and Obsidian Entertainment. The size is determined by the work required for seasons. Bungie put a fraction of their team on Marathon not the whole large studio. They do need to make money though to support the studio.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

XGS make Grounded 2. It took two studios to make it, Eidos-Montréal and Obsidian Entertainment. The size is determined by the work required for seasons. Bungie put a fraction of their team on Marathon not the whole large studio. They do need to make money though to support the studio.

But they have more now on it than previously, and destiny 2 is about done... So they have two lame games, just not gonna bode well imo

 

[falconhoof]

XGS make Grounded 2. It took two studios to make it, Eidos-Montréal and Obsidian Entertainment. The size is determined by the work required for seasons. Bungie put a fraction of their team on Marathon not the whole large studio. They do need to make money though to support the studio.

Marathon was not a small team. Sure, not as big as some of the AAA behemoths, but it was no small fry effort. You don't spent $250M on a handful of developers.

https://www.mobygames.com/game/245427/marathon/credits/windows/?autoplatform=true

Based on an at a glance review, Marathon team looks bigger than Grounded 2 (despite it involving two studios)

https://www.mobygames.com/game/245686/grounded-2/credits/windows/?autoplatform=true

 

[Bernardougf]

I dont think a post represents what COPIUM is more than this one.

 

[dreamstation]

I'd like to know the percentage of votes in the poll by people that have actually played the game.

 

[Three]

Marathon was not a small team. Sure, not as big as some of the AAA behemoths, but it was no small fry effort. You don't spent $250M on a handful of developers.

https://www.mobygames.com/game/245427/marathon/credits/windows/?autoplatform=true

Based on an at a glance review, Marathon team looks bigger than Grounded 2 (despite it involving two studios)

https://www.mobygames.com/game/245686/grounded-2/credits/windows/?autoplatform=true

We're not talking about its development budget we're talking about continued content support for seasons. The team was only 300 people (not 2700) and that was last year before release. Now it is likely smaller.

But they have more now on it than previously, and destiny 2 is about done... So they have two lame games, just not gonna bode well imo

More than before as in during initial development? I doubt that. We're talking about content support. Bode well or not Bungie have confirmed continued support and they say they have years of content.

 

[Sohurmk833]

I'm just counting the days until i can finally piss on Bungies grave.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

We're not talking about its development budget we're talking about continued content support for seasons. The team was only 300 people (not 2700) and that was last year before release. Now it is likely smaller.

It's over 400 now.

 

[falconhoof]

We're not talking about its development budget we're talking about continued content support for seasons. The team was only 300 people (not 2700) and that was last year before release. Now it is likely smaller.


More than before as in during initial development? I doubt that. We're talking about content support. Bode well or not Bungie have confirmed continued support and they say they have years of content.

I called it out because you used the term "fraction", which feels like weighted language to mean a very small group. Like some skunkworks group in the order of the office. Though I don't think the team was as big as Destiny 2, it was clearly not "fraction".

Also, ignore those stupid 2000+ numbers on Mobygames, that's just a list of anyone and everyone who had some passing involvement in the project. My comparison was done by looking at the main body of staff that were hands on with the project. The artists, programmers, designers, animators, etc...

 

[Three]

I called it out because you used the term "fraction", which feels like weighted language to mean a very small group. Like some skunkworks group in the order of the office. Though I don't think the team was not as big as Destiny 2, it was clearly not "fraction".

Fraction just means not the whole. 300 is a pretty small fraction of the 2700 in the moby link you posted.

Also, ignore those stupid 2000+ numbers on Mobygames, that's just a list of anyone and everyone who had some passing involvement in the project. My comparison was done by looking at the main body of staff that were hands on with the project. The artists, programmers, designers, animators, etc...

Fair enough.

 

[duhmetree]

should pass 100K during the free week.

probably see a massive dip 2nd week because of the Final Destiny 2 update.

 

[manfestival]

Make the game f2p and add crossover events and sponsored things like fortnite. The game is casual(despite the denial) and that's OK. Just lean into it and the game will likely survive or at least make it longer

 

[Mengy]

should pass 100K during the free week.

Do you really think so? I doubt it goes over 50K during the free week, S2 just isn't enough of a course correction to bring in any new players, let alone revitalize interest in many players who have already left the game.

Marathon is going to need some serious big changes & new content to bring new interest in, IMHO. I don't think a night mode of an existing map and a new player class is enough.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Marathon is going to need some serious big changes & new content to bring new interest in, IMHO.

Do you think Hunt Showdown needs big changes to bring in new interest?

 

[Mengy]

Do you think Hunt Showdown needs big changes to bring in new interest?

Showdown never had the baggage of a very controversial artstyle, plus the stigma of being the reason a very popular game (Destiny 2) was cancelled. Marathon has a lot of factors working against it.

 

[King Jaffe Joffer]

The only thing I'd be interested in is a campaign. Give me an 8 hour campaign and I'll check it out. Zero interest in the extraction shooter genre. I played it in Division 1 when it was called the Dark Zone, and at least with that game you can take your winnings and use it in the PvE mode, and never lose it once you got it.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Showdown never had the baggage of a very controversial artstyle, plus the stigma of being the reason a very popular game (Destiny 2) was cancelled. Marathon has a lot of factors working against it.

Do you really believe that a meaningful population of gamers buy and play games based on another games history?

In terms of "controversial art style"...do you think anyone playing Valorant, Fortnite, or League of Legends thinks this looks controversial?

 

[Mengy]

Do you really believe that a meaningful population of gamers buy and play games based on another games history?

In terms of "controversial art style"...do you think anyone playing Valorant, Fortnite, or League of Legends thinks this looks controversial?

In short, yes.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Do you think Hunt Showdown needs big changes to bring in new interest?

2.0 did come with an entirely new map, new game mode, new weapons, and engine upgrade

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

2.0 did come with an entirely new map, new game mode, new weapons, and engine upgrade

Right, but look at the 2.3 to 2.7 growth. Or the BI to TS growth before 2.0.

 

[sainraja]

Marathon is a good game but I don't think those who have rejected it are the type of reasonable people who can be swayed by new content. They're set in their ways for other reasons. New content might bring some players back though.

Off topic, why does the voice sound like Mark Cerny and Norman Reedus?

People don't enjoy games anymore. They enjoy the toxic culture around it and it is unfortunate. Funny or maybe ironic thing about marathon, and how it is being blamed for Destiny's situation due to Bungie's focus on marathon is, if these same people blaming marathon realized that had the game been a success, it could have funded Destiny for years to come.

 

[KyoZz]

This guy is not only funny, but also 100% on point



And please Marathon fans, stop thinking that if we don't like this game, it's because it's some kind of misunderstood masterpiece and we know nothing. It's so cringe.

 

[Negotiator101]

They're doing a free week for Season 2 now talk about desperate, it wont see season 3.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Right, but look at the 2.3 to 2.7 growth. Or the BI to TS growth before 2.0.

That's a very slow growth, 10k more in an year.

Also, Hunt Showdown's generated in revenue through it's entire life around the development budget of Marathon, it's not a super high earner, around AA level. Not a very good game to compare Marathon with.

For comparison, Expedition 33 made a lot more money than Hunt Showdown did.

 

[Polelock]

LOL, Destiny died for this

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That's a very slow growth, 10k more in an year.

It went from 2.2k in April 2018 to 28k in November 2021. Both dates were chosen because they occurred after recent spikes in players.

That's not "very slow growth". That's 12x growth in 3.5 years.

But this is what no Marathon doomer has ever adequately answered...What monumental updates did Hunt Showdown get in that time period?

Bungie made Marathon AFTER studying Tarkov and Hunt Showdown. Do you think the Marathon team may have added some advantages in Marathons framework? (Yes they did)

Also, Hunt Showdown's generated in revenue through it's entire life around the development budget of Marathon, it's not a super high earner, around AA level. Not a very good game to compare Marathon with.

For comparison, Expedition 33 made a lot more money than Hunt Showdown did.

True, but Hunt Showdown made significantly more money than Persona 5, Alan Wake 2, and Saros. (Why are we cherry picking again?)

Marathon is a sleeping giant and the next year is going to be a blast.

 

[Guilty_AI]

It went from 2.2k in April 2018 to 28k in November 2021. Both dates were chosen because they occurred after recent spikes in players.

That's not "very slow growth". That's 12x growth in 3.5 years.

That's a dumb way to look at it. A game with 2 daily players would also have a 12x growth if that spiked to 24 daily players in 3 years. It's just classic strangulation of numbers to make something look better than what it actually is.

But this is what no Marathon doomer has ever adequately answered. What monumental updates did Hunt Showdown get in that time period?

The "adequate answer" is that Hunt Showdown, unlike Marathon, started from a position of low public interest.

And - this is very important - the revenue it generates still couldn't cover what Marathon needs. Even if Marathon grows in the exact same way Hunt Showdown did, it'd still be a failure.

Bungie made Marathon AFTER studying Tarkov and Hunt Showdown. Do you think the Marathon team may have added some advantages in Marathons framework?

I think bungie is full of retards

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That's a dumb way to look at it. A game with 2 daily players would also have a 12x growth if that spiked to 24 daily players in 3 years. It's just classic strangulation of numbers to make something look better than what it actually is.

You may not like growth but in this house you will respect growth. Do you understand me?

The "adequate answer" is that Hunt Showdown, unlike Marathon, started from a position of low public interest.

But again...why didn't the public interest stay low or fall off? What revolutionary updates did Hunt Showdown implement after it had been on the market languishing for a year?

And - this is very important - the revenue it generates still couldn't cover what Marathon needs. Even if Marathon grows in the exact same way Hunt Showdown did, it'd still be a failure.

I expect Marathon to be significantly more popular than Hunt Showdown in under a year. Remember, we're in Early Access.