• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

Status
Not open for further replies.
You asked for cases where a white person shoots a black person and isn't arrested, don't back track now man.

Don't ever pass up the opportunity to claim someone is backtracking now, even when they're not.


I said "similar stories". Then, in a later reply I explained exactly what I was getting at. The details of the Zimmerman/Martin case are very unique. Neighborhood watch guy. Has some sort of relationship with police because of that. Is seen as an "upstanding citizen" looking out for the neighborhood. Calls the police from the start. Doesn't flee, and tells people to call the police at the end.

All those things add up in these situations, and while I still believe Zimmerman didn't deserve to be set free, this case most definitely has unique elements which played a part in how it turned out.

Also, Zimmerman's father and his background. That could very well end up being the BIG explanation here for how he was treated.
 

FuturusX

Member
Don't ever pass up the opportunity to claim someone is backtracking now, even when they're not.


I said "similar stories". Then, in a later reply I explained exactly what I was getting at. The details of the Zimmerman/Martin case are very unique. Neighborhood watch guy. Has some sort of relationship with police because of that. Is seen as an "upstanding citizen" looking out for the neighborhood. Calls the police from the start. Doesn't flee, and tells people to call the police at the end.

All those things add up in these situations, and while I still believe Zimmerman didn't deserve to be set free, this case most definitely has unique elements which played a part in how it played out.

Also, Zimmerman's father and his background. That could very well end up being the BIG explanation here for how he was treated.

We can spend all day listing the unique and interesting possibilities to explain the actions of the Zimmerman and law enforcement in this case, but what to your mind is more likely? And why?

I find it interesting how open you are to other "theories" but you are less inclined to believe that racism played a significant factor.
 

apana

Member
Are neo-nazis/white nationalists actually roaming through this town on armed patrols or is it what I suspect and its just a couple of dudes who are doing it to get attention and probably parked out in their car somehwere?
 
Are neo-nazis/white nationalists actually roaming through this town on armed patrols or is it what I suspect and its just a couple of dudes who are doing it to get attention and probably parked out in their car somehwere?

hard for me to believe they are, but you can bet your ass I'm not going to drive up there to find out.
 
We can spend all day listing the unique and interesting possibilities to explain the actions of the Zimmerman and law enforcement in this case, but what to your mind is more likely? And why?

I find it interesting how open you are to other "theories" but you are less inclined to believe that racism played a significant factor.

No, I'm not less inclined. I've just acknowledged racism could have played a factor in how this case turned out.

But in case you haven't noticed, a large percentage of this thread has been going on the story that race was THE factor in this case from literally the first page. It's that kind of jumping to conclusions, and assuming a specific narrative from the beginning that leads to producers at NBC News doctoring 911 audio clips in an attempt to make them sound racist. People bending the facts we have, around the story they already have decided for themselves.

I've never once shot down someone's speculative post in this thread, unless it outright contradicted known facts we already have. I've only questioned those who seem to be certain about the truth already, about aspects that don't seem very clear at all. Almost all of us agree an injustice was done here, but the exact story of how and why has yet to be completely told.

If you just go back a few pages in this thread, you'll see the story of Zimmerman's attorney's saying "they don't know where he is right now". Immediately dozens of people make posts as if they know he's fleeing the authorities. Examples of leaping to conclusions are everywhere you look in this thread.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Are neo-nazis/white nationalists actually roaming through this town on armed patrols or is it what I suspect and its just a couple of dudes who are doing it to get attention and probably parked out in their car somehwere?
The Sanford Police say there's nobody there. Not White Supremacists or Black Panthers.

A "Commander Jeff Schoep of the National Socialist Movement", who is in Detroit, says they are.
 

coldfoot

Banned
For example. Let me paint a hypothetical of Zimmerman for you. Just imagine that Zimmerman is all tatted up, is dressed like a hoodlum, and is not the neighborhood watch captain
That would be his choice and the Police know that and think if he's willing to do this to his own appearance, he might not be straight and level, and act accordingly.
What could Travyon have done besides pulling a Michael Jackson and becoming white?
 

FuturusX

Member
No, I'm not less inclined. I've just acknowledged racism could have played a factor in how this case turned out.

But in case you haven't noticed, a large percentage of this thread has been going on the story that race was THE factor in this case from literally the first page. It's that kind of jumping to conclusions, and assuming a specific narrative from the beginning that leads to producers at NBC News doctoring 911 audio clips in an attempt to make them sound racist. People bending the facts we have, around the story they already have decided for themselves.

I've never once shot down someone's speculative post in this thread, unless it outright contradicted known facts we already have. I've only questioned those who seem to be certain about the truth already, about aspects that don't seem very clear at all. Almost all of us agree an injustice was done here, but the exact story of how and why has yet to be completely told.

If you just go back a few pages in this thread, you'll see the story of Zimmerman's attorney's saying "they don't know where he is right now". Immediately dozens of people make posts as if they know he's fleeing the authorities. Examples of leaping to conclusions are everywhere you look in this thread.

And who's going to tell that story?



So by your own admission racism could have been a significant factor. You should probably make a stronger case against it, with reasonable arguments, beyond the obvious, "we don't know all the facts".


When the "real" story emerges bring that to the table, your rebuttals feel like an emotional reaction, as if you don't want racism to be a factor.

You have to accept that this could very well be exactly what most people believe it to be. If you believe them to be wrong, you really have to provide evidence that suggest otherwise.

EDIT: And yes I'm trying to save you...
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Once again, I don't recall anyone defending Zimmerman.

As for your question, no one fucking knows what really happened.

What's more likely:

1) Trayvon, an unarmed 17 year old doing nothing wrong, being followed and pursued on foot by a random stranger, feeling threatened?

-or-

2) Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch guy, carrying a concealed weapon, calling police (knowing they are on the way), and following a suspicious looking kid, feeling threatened?


[EDIT]
Just realized its several pages later
 

Gattsu25

Banned
For example. Let me paint a hypothetical of Zimmerman for you. Just imagine that Zimmerman is all tatted up, is dressed like a hoodlum, and is not the neighborhood watch captain.
I have a better hypothetical of Zimmerman:

Zimmerman is a wealthy Florida magnate who unfortunately died of old age but not before uttering what appears to be the word "Hoodie" setting off a media search into the meaning of the word. The media uncovers sordid and mundane details about his past while his unwanted property is demolished. One such item, a teddy bear with the word "Hoody" sewn into it, is unceremoniously thrown into a furnace and, with it, the last trace of the childhood that Zimmerman cherished so much.




Or, you know, we can stop throwing "What if"s around like they meant anything.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I have a better hypothetical of Zimmerman:

Zimmerman is a wealthy Florida magnate who unfortunately died of old age but not before uttering what appears to be the word "Hoodie" setting off a media search into the meaning of the word. The media uncovers sordid and mundane details about his past while his unwanted property is demolished. One such item, a teddy bear with the word "Hoody" sewn into it, is unceremoniously thrown into a furnace and, with it, the last trace of the childhood that Zimmerman cherished so much.
And Geraldo opens his vault and finds nothing there?
 

Gattsu25

Banned
[EDIT]
Just realized its several pages later
Here's an update for you:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/10/justice/florida-teen-shooting
Legal team drops Zimmerman in Florida shooting case

...


Uhrig said Zimmerman on his own called Sean Hannity of Fox News and the office of the special prosecutor appointed to lead the investigation.


...


Uhrig also seemed to suggest that Zimmerman had left the state of Florida.

"For those of you engaged in the late Easter egg hunt looking for him, you can stop looking in Florida. Look much further away than that," he told reporters.


...


Benjamin Crump, a lawyer for Martin's family, said the family, after hearing what Zimmerman's lawyers said, was concerned he could be a flight risk.
"The family is deeply concerned that George Zimmerman could pose a flight risk if he does indeed face charges in the murder of Trayvon Martin. All the family has asked for from the very beginning is simple justice. It is their hope that George Zimmerman will face his legal responsibilities if arrested and charged," he said in a statement.
 
And who's going to tell that story?



So by your own admission racism could have been a significant factor. You should probably make a stronger case against it, with reasonable arguments, beyond the obvious, "we don't know all the facts".


When the "real" story emerges bring that to the table, your rebuttals feel like an emotional reaction, as if you don't want racism to be a factor.

You have to accept that this could very well be exactly what most people believe it to be. If you believe them to be wrong, you really have to provide evidence that suggest otherwise.

EDIT: And yes I'm trying to save you...

I suspect we'll get the full story when this case is tried in a courtroom.

It's very interesting that you label my comments "emotional reactions", but the other people in this thread claiming all sorts of unsubstantiated things are not?

Even though I gave you direct evidence to point out the way in which people routinely jump to conclusions, such as today's "he's fleeing" statements.
 

Ponn

Banned
FAKE UPDATE: Zimmerman finally returned his lawyers calls. He was watching Titanic 3D with his phone off. He stayed behind when he saw someone suspicious wearing a hoodie with what may have been a handy cam. Ended up being a box of milk duds.

Seriously, though if this guy ran he is literally the stupidest person alive. His life is over, his face is all over the news and there are outraged people looking for him.
 

Ploid 3.0

Member
I bet it's that he ditched his old cheap lawyers for big name expensive lawyers. His old lawyers said he couldn't afford to fly anywhere but his thank you note suggests the donations have been more than he expected.
 

FuturusX

Member
I suspect we'll get the full story when this case is tried in a courtroom.

It's very interesting that you label my comments "emotional reactions", but the other people in this thread claiming all sorts of unsubstantiated things are not?

Even though I gave you direct evidence to point out the way in which people routinely jump to conclusions, such as today's "he's fleeing" statements. No evidence to suggest that's the case, but I'm acting emotionally. mmkay

Maybe their reactions are emotional too, I'm sure that's the case. That would not make yours less so.

You gave no direct evidence, other than "the full story will emerge" argument. Which is possible but has no baring in logical discourse.

Have you spoken with Zimmerman? Do you possess new evidence beyond that which is readily known?

So how can you know that there is more to the story than what the initial evidence suggests?

You seek to trump perceived presumptions with a presumption of your own. Are you on the ground gathering evidence talking to witnesses, devoting your time to uncovering the truth?

If you know something new and compelling please reveal it. But forgive me if it seems like an emotional position, but you don't seem to want it to be a case where racism played it's part and that is squarely an emotional reaction to the possible reality of the events.
 

Korey

Member
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/10/zimmerman-lawyer-press-conference/?hpt=hp_c1

Tuesday's announcement by two lawyers that they're no longer representing George Zimmerman was a "bizarre episode" that might prompt a special prosecutor to move up her decision on whether to arrest him, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin said.

“That was certainly one of the wackiest news conferences I have ever seen," Toobin said about Tuesday's announcement by attorneys Hal Uhrig and Craig Sonner that they have withdrawn as counsel for Zimmerman. The attorneys said that they still believe Zimmerman's self-defense claim, but that they can't represent him because Zimmerman hasn't answered their messages since Sunday.

"I think they are obviously concerned about his well-being, but they are also, I think, potentially setting him up for an earlier arrest than they might have, because one of the reasons a prosecutor doesn't arrest someone right away is that the prosecutor is assured by the counsel that, 'Look, he'll surrender. He's not going anywhere,' " Toobin said. "At this point the lawyers don't know what he's doing, don't know where he is, and the prosecutor may say, ‘Look, I’d better arrest this person or he's going to be in the wind.’

"So I think this bizarre episode might accelerate the prosecutor's timetable if, in fact, she's going to arrest him.”

...

Toobin said he found it troubling that Uhrig and Sonner felt obliged to withdraw from the case so publicly.

"They make their client look like a lunatic, and they could have communicated this information to the prosecutor who, after all, is the most important person here," Toobin said. "I don't think they did George Zimmerman a great service by spelling this out in such extraordinary detail when they could have simply just gone into the prosecutor and said, ‘Hey, look, we don't represent this guy anymore.’ So I think that's a troubling question of legal ethics on their part."

Toobin said attorneys are not obliged to participate with clients who are actively ignoring their advice or refusing to be in contact with them. And he noted that the attorneys had not entered a notice of appearance that officially would have made them Zimmerman's attorneys in the case.

"But the real issue, it seems to me, is where is he? Because that's going to be something that the prosecutor is very concerned about," Toobin said. "She needs to know that if she wants to proceed with an arrest, she can find the guy. And the lawyers are quite clearly making the representation that they don't know where he is."

Sonner, who said he and Uhrig would resume representing Zimmerman if Zimmerman asked, said that he is "reasonably sure" that he knows where Zimmerman is, and that he was in the United States.

Legal analyst Sunny Hostin told CNN that she agreed with Toobin that the prosecutor will be concerned about where Zimmerman is. But she said that the lawyers' revelation Tuesday that the prosecutor hasn't yet interviewed Zimmerman may mean that no decision on charges will happen in the near future.
 
I don't know about all the ethical stuff. If you know your client is about to do something stupid, publicly stepping away from them is generally a sound tactic.

Now if Zimmerman didn't inform them he was going to do something stupid then he might be correct.
 

Ecotic

Member
An anecdote here, but as time has gone by I can definitely feel how opinions in the public have become racialized, falling down into a white vs. black thing. I can just see it in all the pictures of protestors the media shows (showing only protestors wearing shirts saying "It's not a white or black thing, it's a right or wrong thing"). It feels like Obama could never say today his sympathetic Rose Garden words without his campaign advisers telling him it'd make white America upset.
 

MIMIC

Banned
LOL not related but Anderson Cooper is losing it right now on CNN. He's been laughing for like 3 straight minutes

Hannity is interviewing Karl Rove. Yeah, I changed the channel.
 
HOLY SHIT @ him running + this thread

Also @BruiserBear:

goalposts.jpg
 
It feels like Obama could never say today his sympathetic Rose Garden words without his campaign advisers telling him it'd make white America upset.

I hope you are referring to the (IMO) small percentage of "white Americans" who make a big deal out of stuff like that?

I'm white as all hell.. and am not offended by what Obama said.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Hannity says he did talk to him, had been trying to interview him for weeks, and says he won't reveal anything they talked about. (Obviously.)

And now he wants to talk about Black Panthers and shootings at police.

EDIT: omg, Hannity has this segment "the real OBAMA" or something and the intro has this ominous music showing these random people as he repeats "Sharia Law" over and over.
 

Zeth

Member
EDIT: omg, Hannity has this segment "the real OBAMA" or something and the intro has this ominous music showing these random people as he repeats "Sharia Law" over and over.

With Fox News sometimes I wonder, is this real life? It seems every so often, when I tune in once a year, things have gotten even more comically sensational.
 

demigod

Member
Just woke up to see that his lawyers left him, lol. Dude is so fucking guilty and he knows it. So much for his lawyers defending him and saying he would turn himself in if found guilty!
 

benjipwns

Banned
With Fox News sometimes I wonder, is this real life? It seems every so often, when I tune in once a year, things have gotten even more comically sensational.
The unfortunate thing was the segment was actually something that could have from a conservative point of view been a valid criticism of a policy. Instead it was presented like that and then the segment was just Hannity and Liz Cheney going back and forth seeing who could call Obama more radical and bring up Van Jones and Sharia Law.

Although not as unfortunate as the likelihood that if they had merely had a lopsided discussion criticizing the guy, the policy and the President with a "Fox News Expert" outlining the conservative argument it would have been seen as boring by most viewers and get worse ratings than the nearly nonsensical name-calling and buzzwords.

But rambling about the obvious is probably most unfortunate...
 
I don't know about all the ethical stuff. If you know your client is about to do something stupid, publicly stepping away from them is generally a sound tactic.

No, it's unethical. A lawyer cannot aid criminal activity, and a lawyer has some duties if he becomes aware that a client is going to, e.g., kill somebody, but a layer has no duty to do anything if a client is just going to "do something stupid," and certainly has affirmative obligations not to hurt his clients legal interests for that reason. Zimmerman's "lawyers," if they ever really were his lawyers, have acted against Zimmerman's legal interests. If I were Zimmerman, I would sue them for malpractice, but, ironically, the law has developed such that in order to prevail against a lawyer for malpractice in criminal representation, the client would have to prove his innocence.

Zimmerman hasn't done anything illegal if he has left. He currently has no legal obligations to anybody whatsoever. If he has left the country, which his "lawyers" unethically publicly suggested he has, the blame for that lies with Florida authorities who have to date declined to charge him with committing any crime.
 

Koomaster

Member
I would quite frankly leave the country as well if I were Zimmerman. Probably can't go anywhere in the states without being recognized or looking over his shoulder. He's currently free to go wherever I guess. We'll see what happens when/if they ever decide to charge him for any crimes. :/

Is there any reason this is taking so long? Seems there wouldn't be any new evidence coming in at this point, no more witnesses coming forward. Ex-Lawyers now don't know where he is... is anyone going to do anything?
 
No, it's unethical. A lawyer cannot aid criminal activity, and a lawyer has some duties if he becomes aware that a client is going to, e.g., kill somebody, but a layer has no duty to do anything if a client is just going to "do something stupid," and certainly has affirmative obligations not to hurt his clients legal interests for that reason. Zimmerman's "lawyers," if they ever really were his lawyers, have acted against Zimmerman's legal interests. If I were Zimmerman, I would sue them for malpractice, but, ironically, the law has developed such that in order to prevail against a lawyer for malpractice in criminal representation, the client would have to prove his innocence.

Zimmerman hasn't done anything illegal if he has left. He currently has no legal obligations to anybody whatsoever. If he has left the country, which his "lawyers" unethically publicly suggested he has, the blame for that lies with Florida authorities who have to date declined to charge him with committing any crime.

A noisy withdrawal is certainly a known tactic, though it would mostly be used in civil instances. Without knowing what is going on behind the scenes, I will agree that you are probably right in this instance, as was the commentator you quoted.
 
That isn't even remotely similar to this case, other than the fact that the shooter is trying to use "stand your ground" as his defense. He shot this guy right in front of other people. He went back to his house to get his gun, during the confrontation.

How can you not see how the Dooley and this case are similar? After shouting from across the street, Dooley grabbed his gun before the confrontation, not during. After having his words, flashing his gun, and then attempting to return home, Dooley is attacked by the person he confronted, trying to disarm him. Eventually pinned to the ground, where he claims he was being chocked, Dooley shots his attacker dead.

Zimmerman, armed with a gun, confronts a "suspicious" person. According to his version, when attempting to return to his car, is attacked by Martin, eventually pinned to the ground, where he claims his head being severely bashed, is able to shot his attacker dead.

The biggest difference, is that the police didn't look at Dooley, see grass on his back and go "oh, okay," and let him go. Dooley is on trail for Manslaughter, Zimmerman is not.

The cases are similar. Their outcome (so far), is not.
 

Jenov

Member
"And late Tuesday, special prosecutor Angela Corey said she would announce “new information” about the controversial case within 72 hours. She did not elaborate."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-zimmerman-attorneys-20120411,0,3405665.story

So if the special prosecutor announced that she's going to "make an announcement in 72 hours" it sounds unlikely that it's going to be about his arrest. I mean, why give a time frame on of your arrest announcement? Wouldn't she just give the word to arrest him first, then announce a meeting to explain the charges? Either she may not press charges or perhaps only minor/lesser charges that people may not be happy with.
 

Ponn

Banned
Hmmm. Would it be outrageous if he worked out a plea bargain with the prosecutor. Maybe out of guilt conscience or fear of his life and they already took him somewhere?
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
"And late Tuesday, special prosecutor Angela Corey said she would announce “new information” about the controversial case within 72 hours. She did not elaborate."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-zimmerman-attorneys-20120411,0,3405665.story

So if the special prosecutor announced that she's going to "make an announcement in 72 hours" it sounds unlikely that it's going to be about his arrest. I mean, why give a time frame on of your arrest announcement? Wouldn't she just give the word to arrest him first, then announce a meeting to explain the charges? Either she may not press charges or perhaps only minor/lesser charges that people may not be happy with.

It will be ugly then,

on the other hand, people will now be able to stalk and kill anyone they want in self defense, it will help control the population.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom