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[Lonewulfeus]

This actually leads to a very interesting, and very hard to discuss, argument over the question of "nonexistence vs. negative existence" - is it better to live, suffer, and die, or to never live at all? At that point it's a value judgement, I would say, since it's not a decision anyone can really make on a global scale.

Like, given the choice between the following options (going to the absolute extreme for simplicity's sake):

- All cows forever are allowed to live freely and die of natural causes, but the number of cows born diminishes by a huge number.
- Cows continue to be bred and slaughtered in as ethical a way as possible.

I think we can all agree that the hierarchy of lives is as follows:

1) A long, full life with minimal suffering.
2) A life cut short with minimal suffering.
3) A life cut short full of suffering.

So then it's a question of scale. Less cows with better lives, more cows with worse lives. I dunno. How can we possibly measure that when the only perspective we have is one brief human life?



This argument though, doesn't really make any sense. "You can't eliminate suffering, so therefore you shouldn't try to reduce it." It doesn't follow from any real coherent ethical framework that posits suffering as a negative.

For the first point, option 2 for me.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't try to reduce suffering if you want to and/or feel like suffering is happening that you can change. My question is why would someone so altruistic stop there? Our lives are filled with products of suffering, hell the produce espoused by vegans as suffering free are likely cared for and harvested by immigrants making shitty money to do back breaking work because they have no choice. Why is that suffering ok but animals dying early isn't ok? That why it's easy to draw comparisons between religion and veganism it just a way to assuage guilt and make you feel less bad about how we live as humans. If that's what you need fine but don't push it on the rest of us.

 

[joe2187]

Meat eaters are much worse generally. Can't go ten seconds without wanking themselves over bacon and are incapable of even having a little bit of emapthy or respect for the animal they're stuffing down their gob in the name of their taste buds.

Who are these people ive never seen or heard of that whip their dicks out at the sight of meat and lube themselves up with bacon grease?

Ive never encountered any such rabid meat jockeys and i work in the food industry.

 

[Mael]

People also lived until 40

Sure smallpox was cured by Apple after all.

 

[Servbot24]

You can choose not to support electronics companies as well but you don't. I'm not the one advocating for livin a life where I cause a little suffering as possible. I accept that in the world we live in there will be suffering and I don't pick and choose which suffering is ok and which isn't because none of it's ok. The veganism is just assuaging your own feelings of guilt. Cant you see the similarities to veganism and religion?

So if you think none of suffering is okay, why is it such a virtue to ignore all of it?

Gonna ignore that religion comment because you sound like you're 12 years old and I'm sure you'll grow out of that extreme degree of simple-mindedness on your own.

 

[Lonewulfeus]

The necessity of electronic devices is a lot higher than meat. I'd advocate better working conditions for them, there's nothing about electronics that requires cruelty to be made.

People that go around unwilling to cut back on meat despite the catastrophic effects on the environment, thinking that animal's don't deserve any better than factory farms are absolutely disgusting.

You aren't though, you're condoning their actions by purchasing their products. You are contributing to the suffering of people and it doesn't bother you, just like it doesn't bother me that animals have to die so I can eat meat. You aren't thinking about it just like I don't think about animals as meat.

This is the one question I have posited several times in this thread and not one vegan will answer, how is animal suffering worse than human suffering? Why that hill?

 

[GrooveCommand]

Do you have any empathy for the people forced to work in mine for next to no pay in brutal conditions to dig up the rare earth metals used to create the computer and or phone you are posting on? No? Then stop whining about meat eaters.

Just because we're not perfect doesn't mean we can't strive to be better. If you dig deep enough you can say that anyone is a hypocrite about something. That kind of attitude is defeatist.

 

[Lonewulfeus]

So if you think none of suffering is okay, why is it such a virtue to ignore all of it?

Gonna ignore that religion comment because you sound like you're 12 years old and I'm sure you'll grow out of that extreme degree of simple-mindedness on your own.

No you're gonna ignore it because you don't have an argument otherwise and you know I'm right lol

 

[Servbot24]

Just because we're not perfect doesn't mean we can't strive to be better. If you dig deep enough you can say that anyone is a hypocrite about something. That kind of attitude is defeatist.

It's way worse than defeatist tbh. It's borderline malicious.

 

[Wickerbasket]

You can't condemn someone for not addressing all the world's issues. I don't walk up to you and say "Yeah well you didn't feed starving children in Africa" anytime that you try to do a good deed.

And that's true, I do turn a blind eye to some things. I own an iPhone, and I know someone probably had a miserable time making it. The reality is that bearing all potential inconveniences at once isn't reasonable, and isn't asked of us. There's nothing wrong with choosing the ones that resonate with you. Some people care more about human rights, so they'll find ways to stand up for better working conditions, and I'll give them respect for that instead of trying to invalidate them because they didn't also take measures against climate change. For me climate change happens to resonate, so I eat vegan and ride my bike to work instead of driving.

It's not about condemning people, it's about pointing out the hypocrisy of people chiding meat eaters for being immoral while themselves taking part in immoral practices.

Everyone benefits from some form of suffering, the only difference between a vegan and a meat eater is the degree to which they don't care.

Honestly, if you care about climate change, your energy would be better focused on larger contributors such as fossil fuels, but I doubt you're going to go out of your way to completely stop using electricity, gas and their by products any time soon because it'd be inconvenient for you.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

 

[TarNaru33]

People don't like being told they're assholes.

News at 11.

Edit: My comments was directed at all those assclown vegans who go around proclaiming themselves superior to everyone else and calling you a monster for eating meat.

Who the fuck wants to put up with that?

I wonder if people saying this, agree with the Republicans/conservatives who state they aren't voting Democrat because of how "toxic" liberals are.

 

[Lonewulfeus]

It's not about condemning people, it's about pointing out the hypocrisy of people chiding meat eaters for being immoral while themselves taking part in immoral practices.

Everyone benefits from some form of suffering, the only difference between a vegan and a meat eater is the degree to which they don't care.

Honestly, if you care about climate change, your energy would be better focused on larger contributors such as fossil fuels, but I doubt you're going to go out of your way to completely stop using electricity, gas and there by products any time soon because it'd be inconvenient for you.

Yup, all of this.

 

[Lonewulfeus]

It's way worse than defeatist tbh. It's borderline malicious.

Again, thinking youre more high minded than the rest of us. You're making my religion comparisons for me

 

[Servbot24]

It's not about condemning people, it's about pointing out the hypocrisy of people chiding meat eaters for being immoral while themselves taking part in immoral practices.

Everyone benefits from some form of suffering, the only difference between a vegan and a meat eater is the degree to which they don't care.

Honestly, if you care about climate change, your energy would be better focused on larger contributors such as fossil fuels, but I doubt you're going to go out of your way to completely stop using electricity, gas and there by products any time soon because it'd be inconvenient for you.

Firstly, I do go out of my way to avoid using gas.

Secondly, we're still waiting to hear why it's so much worse to be partially good rather than entirely complacent. Pointing out hypocrisy is both pointless and naive.

 

[GrooveCommand]

You aren't though, you're condoning their actions by purchasing their products. You are contributing to the suffering of people and it doesn't bother you, just like it doesn't bother me that animals have to die so I can eat meat. You aren't thinking about it just like I don't think about animals as meat.

This is the one question I have posited several times in this thread and not one vegan will answer, how is animal suffering worse than human suffering? Why that hill?

Suffering is an objective experience. It's impossible to say that any living being's suffering is equivalent to another's. The reality is that suffering is suffering and that it doesn't matter if animal suffering is worse or better than human suffering. We all have a choice to eat what we want and the reality is that if you choose to eat meat, you are contributing to animal suffering. If you don't have a problem with that, it's your choice. Ultimately, I think we can all agree that it's better to do things that aren't the result of suffering; human or otherwise.

 

[Esch]

You aren't though, you're condoning their actions by purchasing their products. You are contributing to the suffering of people and it doesn't bother you, just like it doesn't bother me that animals have to die so I can eat meat. You aren't thinking about it just like I don't think about animals as meat.

This is the one question I have posited several times in this thread and not one vegan will answer, how is animal suffering worse than human suffering? Why that hill?

Poor labor conditions in the third world are a consequence of flaws inherent to capitalism.

The mass torture and killing of ~70 billion land animals a year for sustenance when major dietetic organizations agree that you can live a healthy life (if well planned) without meat is a separate issue.

You can care about both. Caring about one doesn't mean you don't care about the other?

 

[goldenpp72]

What if people eat what they want and let other people eat what they want too?
Crazy.

You're being immoral and need to be told as such is why, duh.

 

[Alienfan]

You aren't though, you're condoning their actions by purchasing their products. You are contributing to the suffering of people and it doesn't bother you, just like it doesn't bother me that animals have to die so I can eat meat. You aren't thinking about it just like I don't think about animals as meat.

This is the one question I have posited several times in this thread and not one vegan will answer, how is animal suffering worse than human suffering? Why that hill?

The thing is, I couldn't go without my computer. It's too intrensic to everything I do on my modern life, from my job to connecting with family overseas - my life would be significantly hampered without it. I don't go around buying a new phone every year and I generally buy second hand. Meat though? It's tasty, but all the positive talking points pretty much end there. It's one of the biggest contributions to green house emissions, and one of the easiest things to cut. I'm not putting animal lives above humans, that's absurd (I'd argue that because of the environmental ramifications means it includes human suffrage as well). Like anything that contributes negatively to society, ask yourself do I absolutely need this, can I limit my consumption of this, and can I at least purchase this from a more humane company.

 

[Man God]

This is the ultimate both sides are full of assholes. Meat eaters always questioning vegans, asking them but doesn't this piece of meat smell soooo good, sometimes trying to sneak meat in things where it really doesn't belong. Vegans acting holier than thou, trying to shame people about what they eat, proclaiming how healthy they are at every opportunity.

My uncle has been vegan as long as I've known him and is a totally cool dude about it, just quietly explaining he's a vegan whenever it comes up, and it has for over 30 years now. No shame, no let me educate you. A bunch of vegans I met in college though were complete toolbags about it and a lot of it stems from meat eaters trying to shame them as well as just general rebellion/remaking themselves in college.

Most meat eaters I know are perfectly fine with offering vegan/vegetarian options, going out of their way to make everyone feel comfortable. Hell most vegans I know have no problem cooking a steak for a guest.

 

[Jacksinthe]

You need to understand that you are giving two anecdotes about people called "assholes"

You cannot track the number of vegetarians and vegans who you have met that said nothing. I assure you that if you asked a few vegans or vegetarians in good faith their stories of antagonising assholes bugging them would faaaaaaaaar outweigh yours.

I'm not equating this to bigotry, but the world would be a lot better if people stopped using memes and two dickheads to shape their view of people in general.

I'm not a vegan, and I'm fine with people eating meat responsibly and ethically, but people who say "I don't like X because I met a mean one" are fucking dorks. No way around it and no excuse for it.

Of course it's an anecdote. Why why wouldn't it be when I specifically stated personal experience.

I also have asked my non-asshole vegan friends and they don't have issues because they don't advertise to the world they are vegan. Like most everyone else, they order food and eat. Not a shock.

Also, I'm not letting anyone shape my view of an entire group - or did you miss the all caps SOME I wrote in?

Some as in not all?
Some as in not a majority?
Some as in not a large number?
Some as in... ... ... Some people ignore what's written and argue against shit that was never said?

Good enough? Goodie.

How do you count the people you didn't know were vegans when you met them because they didn't say anything?

See above, Jesus Christ.

 

[Hypron]

Honestly, if you care about climate change, your energy would be better focused on larger contributors such as fossil fuels, but I doubt you're going to go out of your way to completely stop using electricity, gas and their by products any time soon because it'd be inconvenient for you.

That's a dumb argument. Meat production is a significant contributor to climate change. It's not the biggest one, but it's large enough that stopping to eat meat will make a difference. It's also significantly easier to reduce or cut out meat from your diet than it is to go without electricity. If everyone made improvements where they could it'd go a long way.

Furthermore, I don't own a car, live in a apartment, try to buy locally when feasible, try to reduce the amount of waste I'm producing, and most of the electricity in my country is generated from hydro power.

So, did I earn the right to reduce my meat consumption because I'm also tackling the biggest problem?

 

[cpp_is_king]

The thing is, I couldn't go without my computer. It's too intrensic to everything I do on my modern life, from my job to connecting with family overseas - my life would be significantly hampered without it. I don't go around buying a new phone every year and I generally buy second hand. Meat though? It's tasty, but all the positive talking points pretty much end there. It's one of the biggest contributions to green house emissions, and one of the easiest things to cut. I'm not putting animal lives above humans, that's absurd (I'd argue that because of the environmental ramifications means it includes human suffrage as well)

For you though. My life would be severely impacted if I would not able to eat meat.

 

[Wickerbasket]

Firstly, I do go out of my way to avoid using gas.

Secondly, we're still waiting to hear why it's so much worse to be partially good rather than entirely complacent. Pinting out hypocrisy is both pointless and naive.

Well it's hard to take someone seriously when they claim something is immoral while doing equally or more immoral things.

Like, the animals suffer so I don't eat meat but I have to have the latest phone so fuck those people.

That's a dumb argument. Meat production is a significant contributor to climate change. It's not the biggest one, but it's large enough that stopping to eat meat will make a difference.

Furthermore, I don't own a car, live in a apartment, try to buy locally when feasible, try to reduce the amount of waste I'm producing, and most of the electricity in my country is generated from hydro power.

So, did I earn the right to reduce my meat consumption because I'm also tackling the biggest problem?

You don't need to earn the right to do anything. You can do what you want, just don't try claim the moral high ground when it's obvious that as soon as something becomes inconvenient to you, it's likely you'll turn a blind eye. Your whole modern life is built upon the suffering of others, so it's a bit ironic to say that you won't eat animals because of your morals.

 

[Servbot24]

Well it's hard to take someone seriously when they claim something is immoral while doing equally or more immoral things.

Like, the animals suffer so I don't eat meat but I have to have the latest phone so fuck those people.

But you have done the same thing. You're being a hypocrite in this conversation by telling me not to be a hypocrite. Does that mean you're never going to speak again? Or does it mean you'll continue speaking, knowing you'll sometimes be wrong but you'll do the best you can?

 

[Wickerbasket]

But you have done the same thing. You're being a hypocrite in this conversation by telling me not to be a hypocrite. Does that mean you're never going to speak again? Or does it mean you'll continue speaking, knowing you'll sometimes be wrong but you'll do the best you can?

You'll have to explain yourself further, because I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[Servbot24]

You'll have to explain yourself further, because I don't understand what you're trying to say.

You have never viewed something as being immoral despite having done something equally or more immoral yourself?

 

[Hypron]

You don't need to earn the right to do anything. You can do what you want, just don't try claim the moral high ground when it's obvious that as soon as something becomes inconvenient to you, it's likely you'll turn a blind eye. Your whole modern life is built upon the suffering of others, so it's a bit ironic to say that you won't eat animals because of your morals.

We were talking about the environmental impact of eating meat, why do you bring morals into that?

Edit: Actually, you know what? Yes I do believe I'm on a higher moral standing than all those people who spend their entire time trying to actively dissuade everyone from making any efforts by shaming them because of some dumb concepts like hypocrisy.

 

[Alienfan]

Well it's hard to take someone seriously when they claim something is immoral while doing equally or more immoral things.

Like, the animals suffer so I don't eat meat but I have to have the latest phone so fuck those people.

So because you can't reduce suffrage and negative environmental impacts in every facet of your life, means you shouldn't try at all? Do you also think black lives matter or LGBT activists can't claim racism and homophobia are immoral because they buy iPhone that have been made by children in almost slave like working conditions? Seems kind of silly to see the moral value of something dependent on the person claiming it to be as such

 

[Jams775]

The thing is, I couldn't go without my computer. It's too intrensic to everything I do on my modern life, from my job to connecting with family overseas - my life would be significantly hampered without it. I don't go around buying a new phone every year and I generally buy second hand. Meat though? It's tasty, but all the positive talking points pretty much end there. It's one of the biggest contributions to green house emissions, and one of the easiest things to cut. I'm not putting animal lives above humans, that's absurd (I'd argue that because of the environmental ramifications means it includes human suffrage as well). Like anything that contributes negatively to society, ask yourself do I absolutely need this, can I limit my consumption of this, and can I at least purchase this from a more humane company.

Are you saying slave labor is okay as long as you benefit from it? Meat is tasty but that's all? It's not a source of food to keep us all alive? Good lord I'm trying to think of something to say but I just can't even. edit: did I miss read this?

 

[Wickerbasket]

You have never viewed something as being immoral despite having done something equally or more immoral yourself?

Not really? I'm not really the preachy type though.

So because you can't reduce suffrage and negative environmental impacts in every facet of your life, means you shouldn't try at all? Do you also think black lives matter or LGBT activists can't claim racism and homophobia are immoral because they buy iPhone that have been made by children in almost slave like working conditions? Seems kind of silly to see the moral value of something dependent on the person claiming it to be as such

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying people will only go so far as to not inconvenience themselves.

To some, not eating meat is too big of an inconvenience. To others, they can go without meat but still need their iphone.

 

[GrooveCommand]

Well it's hard to take someone seriously when they claim something is immoral while doing equally or more immoral things.

Isn't that kind of your problem? Like maybe you could stop trying to find the flaws in others and accept your own?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Can we all agree that meat eating is slowly going out the door like gas cars? And just like gas cars it will take a while because you can't uproot an industry that big without causing waves. No harm in advocating a world with less suffering but people will be hesistant to your ideas if you're so militant about them.

No.

 

[Wickerbasket]

Isn't that kind of your problem? Like maybe you could stop trying to find the flaws in others and accept your own?

You think it's a problem to not take someone seriously when they're being morally inconsistent?

Seriously, I try my best in life not to judge, but there's no need to preach to others about the evil of meat. They don't care, just like you don't care about how your phone is made. That's all my point is.

 

[Alienfan]

Are you saying slave labor is okay as long as you benefit from it? Meat is tasty but that's all? It's not a source of food to keep us all alive? Good lord I'm trying to think of something to say but I just can't even. edit: did I miss read this?

I'm just saying be mindful of what you consume and how much you buy of a particular product that contributes negatively to a society. For electronics, buying ethically is near impossible, I try my best by buying second hand - but there's not much I can do beyond that, other than cutting electronics entirely from my life. Food though, that's fairly straightforward. Unless you have a strict dietary requirement, eating vege proteins or at the very least buying from more humane and clean green suppliers are only slight inconveniences to your daily life. Hell even one day a week of no meat, and you'd be doing better than most Americans

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Are you saying slave labor is okay as long as you benefit from it? Meat is tasty but that's all? It's not a source of food to keep us all alive? Good lord I'm trying to think of something to say but I just can't even. edit: did I miss read this?

Poor working conditions != slave labour. Slave labour is forced labour, those people working in those factories chose to work there. In fact, I'm sure they'd rather you buy the electronics than not buy it and put them out of work. It's not slavery.

Why are we even entertaining this fallacy, anyway? "Hypocrisy" doesn't make meat-eating morally acceptable. It just means both are wrong.

 

[Wickerbasket]

Poor working conditions != slave labour. Slave labour is forced labour, those people working in those factories chose to work there. In fact, I'm sure they'd rather you buy the electronics than not buy it and put them out of work. It's not slavery.

You should google "modern slavery China" if you want to see down the rabbit hole.

Why are we even entertaining this fallacy, anyway? "Hypocrisy" doesn't mean meat-eating isn't morally wrong.

I didn't disagree that it isn't, if there's a way to avoid needless suffering then you should obviously take it. But I like eating meat and I like using electronics, so I'm going to ignore how they get into my hands.

 

[Hypron]

Poor working conditions != slave labour. Slave labour is forced labour, those people working in those factories chose to work there. In fact, I'm sure they'd rather you buy the electronics than not buy it and put them out of work. It's not slavery.

When your choice is to starve and let your family starve, or work in horrible conditions... Is it really a choice anymore?

 

[blankempathy]

There are people with shitty attitudes in every facet of life, something not unique to vegans. With that said, if a vegan put you off from changing your diet because of a bad attitude, then you really didn't care to change it to begin with, similar to people in this past election who refused to vote for one candidate because of the attitude of his or her supporters, regardless of that candidate's qualities.

Idiots everywhere. You either like the lifestyle or not. Don't blame assholes for not wanting to eat healthier.

People are more willing to listen to a new idea when its not delivered in rude manner. Sure you may not have been thinking about changing your diet but perhaps if you had a discussion with someone who presented you information in a nice way without being judgemental you may open up to the idea of change and thats the first step.

 

[Servbot24]

Not really? I'm not really the preachy type

It has nothing to do with being preachy. Either you are true to your morals or you are not. And you are not, because no human being in history ever has been. That doesn't mean we should get rid of morals.

You don't validate ideas by deciding whether you like the person holding the idea. "That guy says murder is wrong but he cheated on his test so what does he really know about murder!" is an insane statement. Likewise "That guy is trying to improve the environment but he didn't solve factory conditions in China so what does he know about the environment!" is likewise insane.

Edit: What the post below says.

 

[SciencePilot]

What bigger issue is there than climate change?

That's what I'm saying. I wish people would decide whether to be vegan or not based on the actual issue: climate change, morality towards animals, etc. Instead, people decide whether to be vegan or not based on some culture war about vegans being annoying.

 

[gondwana]

if 8 billion people can't live like breathatarian jain monks encapsulated in individual, impenetrable magic bubbles, nihilism is the only other option. there is no philosophical nuance whatsoever

 

[Lamel]

Most vegans I know are not trying to proselytize anyone. However the ones that are extremely vocal about it tend to stick in the minds of people.


Vegans/vegetarians are fighting the good fight. I'm hoping one day I can join too. As of now I'm just so weak ;_;

 

[Goldenroad]

If I ever were to make the shift it would be because of economic reasons.

Agreed. I love meat, but it's the most expensive part of my diet.

 

[Jams775]

That's what I'm saying. I wish people would decide whether to be vegan or not based on the actual issue: climate change, morality towards animals, etc. Instead, people decide whether to be vegan or not based on some culture war about vegans being annoying.

Well that'd be advocating a reduction in beef though, not meat in general. From what I understand beef production is what is more harmful for the environment. So I don't need to stop eating meat. I just need to reduce or stop my red meat intake. Which is fine.

 

[Mael]

Well that'd be advocating a reduction in beef though, not meat in general. From what I understand beef production is what is more harmful for the environment. So I don't need to stop eating meat. I just need to reduce my red meat intake. Which is fine.

Beef is overrated anyway.

 

[Nerazar]

Yay, fallout time

This study is just true. Psychologically, people double down on things if you as much as touch their worldview or certain fundamental truths from the outside. This is true for religion, it is true for politics and it is also true for dietary choices.

The only way to change eating habits is to find a reason to do so. By yourself, from the inside. People who were at the brink of death, because of the oh-so-delicous bacon, will avoid it afterwards. Quite easily even. People who start thinking about this whole process of getting that bacon on the plate and what went into it will develop a distaste for it.

Obviously, there are some social deviants out there who would also kick around puppies just to make a point or joke about that on the internet, but for most people, I am sure, going vegetarian or vegan is a very natural process of being a better version of oneself. The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. Once started, the process is very difficult to stop.

However, as long as people value their pleasure above other living beings - no matter the cost - we will have Trumpism and we will have all kinds of shit to deal with. It is all connected.

 

[lastplayed]

Militant vegans or vegetarians will always be militant about something that makes them feel better, so I don't hold vegetarianism against that.

The only thing stopping me being vegetarian is my love of eating meat.

 

[Toxi]

This seems more like a study of perceptions of vegans as opposed to any actual aggressiveness of vegans.

Yep.

 

[GrooveCommand]

You think it's a problem to not take someone seriously when they're being morally inconsistent?

Seriously, I try my best in life not to judge, but there's no need to preach to others about the evil of meat. They don't care, just like you don't care about how your phone is made. That's all my point is.

Yeah you're right, people shouldn't be preaching to others they have no business preaching to. And practically everyone is morally inconsistent to some degree - it's a human flaw that we all share. On the same token, I think that a lot of times people are just simply unaware of what goes in to the making of products they purchase. The last time I bought a phone, I wasn't thinking at all about what went in to making the product but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have been. If I had known that the phone I bought was the result of some type of atrocity I would have looked for an alternative phone that is manufactured in an ethical fashion.

This type of issue applies to practically everything I purchase. I do what I can do buy products from ethical companies (Cruelty Free, Vegan, Organic [no pesticides], Fair Trade, etc) but often times the manufacturing process is not transparent and it requires more than just a quick google search to understand. On the other hand, the injustices perpetrated by the meat industry are well documented and it's a pretty straightforward dilemma.

 

[Gunslinger]

As long as they are not annoying as those Vegan Youtubers who question people on the streets about their eating habits or why they are not wearing vegan friendly outfit AKA jackets with fur (I dont wear jackets with fur i find that cruel too). I have no problem with vegans. I really like vegan food too. Chana Masala is my all time favorite dish.