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[Durien]

Hey all,
For you older gafers, I finished the book Being Mortal by Atul Gawande and as an almost 50 year old, it was fairly eye opening. It talks about how End of Life has changed and things to consider. He writes clearly and uses plenty of patients as examples and also talks about costs, hospice care, and things you might not think about but should be when it comes to end of life.
I really enjoyed reading this book because I always thought I would go quietly in my sleep as opposed to a hospice or palliative care. My wife and I have talked about the differences between alive and living when it comes to us as well as when to not resuscitate etc. His use of patients to help provide an overall picture of his point is great and I just enjoyed his writing style. I am going to see if he wrote any other books because they may also be worth a read. It isn't just about growing old as he also talks about patients with cancer and such.

Growing old sucks without a plan or when the unexpected occurs.

 

[Punished Miku]

My fiance is a nurse so she'll have no problems whatsoever pulling the plug on me early. Just rip the band aid off.

 

[jason10mm]

Yeah, the possibility of sudden death/incapacitating is much higher in the 40+ age. Having folks be aware of your medical directives/wishes, a smooth transition for kids, allocation of property/finances, wills and testaments, all important to consider while you are healthy and clear thinking.

I've done my will a few times, as usual the lawyers make it harder than necessary for the average person, but worth doing at least once early so there is SOMETHING, definitely if you have kids.

 

[AlteredForms]

My fiance is a nurse so she'll have no problems whatsoever pulling the plug on me early. Just rip the band aid off.

I'm the exact opposite of Miku and find this mind-set incredibly abhorrent. To me being alive for as long as possible is the ultimate achievement and it's the one which eclipses everything else. It's probably one of the reasons why I never smoked, drank or did hard drugs. If I receive an extra 10-20 years by staying off the sauce then I'm going to take those and run with them until the wheels fall off!!

 

[Punished Miku]

I'm the exact opposite of Miku and find this mind-set incredibly abhorrent. To me being alive for as long as possible is the ultimate achievement and it's the one which eclipses everything else. It's probably one of the reasons why I never smoked, drank or did hard drugs. If I receive an extra 10-20 years by staying off the sauce then I'm going to take those and run with them until the wheels fall off!!

Well the truth is it's a slow frog in boiling water decline anyway, so everyone just rolls with it until the end. I've seen it many, many times.

The issue is that medical technology has dramatically improved the ability to keep you alive, but not necessarily improved your ability to have meaningful quality of life. We transitioned in that period from a time of "let's listen to our wise elders" in their 70s to "grandma doesn't know who I am" in her 90s. That extra 15-20 years can be good for some, or can be little more than living as a shell of your former self in poor conditions, poverty, and tons of physical and mental ailments. Just depends on the person mostly.

 

[augmental]

I'm the exact opposite of Miku and find this mind-set incredibly abhorrent. To me being alive for as long as possible is the ultimate achievement and it's the one which eclipses everything else. It's probably one of the reasons why I never smoked, drank or did hard drugs. If I receive an extra 10-20 years by staying off the sauce then I'm going to take those and run with them until the wheels fall off!!

So you've never experienced something other than sobriety your whole life? C'mon! That's no way to live IMO.

 

[jufonuk]

 

[jshackles]

My wife and I discussed it, and neither of us want medical bankruptcy or financial ruin for the other one, even if it means extending our life (like Miku said above, whether the extra time is meaningful is entirely subjective). If I found out I had some form or cancer or something today, and it was going to cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars to (maybe) save my life, I'd rather just die now and leave that money to my kids.

And while we're on the subject, just roll me up in a carpet and toss me in the woods somewhere when I die. Don't let those fuckers in the death industry get a dime.

 

[Winter John]

No need for a plan when you have a shotgun

 

[Durien]

The issue is that medical technology has dramatically improved the ability to keep you alive, but not necessarily improved your ability to have meaningful quality of life. We transitioned in that period from a time of "let's listen to our wise elders" in their 70s to "grandma doesn't know who I am" in her 90s. That extra 15-20 years can be good for some, or can be little more than living as a shell of your former self in poor conditions, poverty, and tons of physical and mental ailments. Just depends on the person mostly.

This is exactly what he talks about in the book. In the past we hit the fan, end up in the hospital, and die. Now, instead of being a graph of a cliff, it is more like a decline with hills and valleys. Something breaks, which puts you in the hospital, where they fix you, but your quality of life is diminished and it continues with your quality of life ending up in a sewer.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

I'm mid-30s, single, no kids, and have a decent nest egg and house. And no will.

I have no idea what happens to that money if I go. Is there a default "next of kin" hand-off to my parents or brother if go? In the US. When do people usually start the process of documenting where all their stuff goes?

 

[Durien]

I'm mid-30s, single, no kids, and have a decent nest egg and house. And no will.

I have no idea what happens to that money if I go. Is there a default "next of kin" hand-off to my parents or brother if go? In the US. When do people usually start the process of documenting where all their stuff goes?

My wife and I started when we had kids so almost 40

 

[Badlucktroll]

just wait till they come up with some amrita avatar type shit that works like chemotherapy that freezes your age in place permanetly, or slows it down to the point where it might as well be permanent.

 

[jshackles]

I'm mid-30s, single, no kids, and have a decent nest egg and house. And no will.

I have no idea what happens to that money if I go. Is there a default "next of kin" hand-off to my parents or brother if go? In the US. When do people usually start the process of documenting where all their stuff goes?

In most states in the US, your "estate" (your assets and debts you have when you die) get handed over to your state's probate office. If you have no spouse, no heirs, and no will the state will then typically seize your bank accounts and liquidate your assets (sell your house and cars and anything of high value). If you have debts, such as a mortgage or car payment, credit card balances, student loan balances, back taxes owed, etc. that cash will be used to pay that off. This process typically takes several years.

Any funds left over will be sent to your state's treasurers office and will be listed as unclaimed property. Each state has different rules for claiming this - in some cases your parents (if they're still alive) could file to claim this money. But if you truly do die alone with nobody to claim it, the state treasury office just keeps it in a deposit account and draws a small amount of interest on it for presumably forever.

That's why making a will is important. Even if you have nobody to leave your money to in the event of your demise, it's usually better to leave the money to a close friend or even a charity. With a legal will, you get to decide where it goes. Without one, you're basically pumping your money into the state coffers.

 

[LordOfChaos]

I really enjoyed reading this book because I always thought I would go quietly in my sleep as opposed to a hospice or palliative care. My wife and I have talked about the differences between alive and living when it comes to us as well as when to not resuscitate etc. His use of patients to help provide an overall picture of his point is great and I just enjoyed his writing style. I am going to see if he wrote any other books because they may also be worth a read. It isn't just about growing old as he also talks about patients with cancer and such.

I'd be curious what kind of thing changed your thinking (or did it?)

My mom just passed, too young, from glioblastoma, about the worst of the brain cancers. Lasted 4 years with that diagnosis, which is long for it, the prognosis is only 12-18 months. Spent the last 6 months of life in hospice.

It was a terrible thing to see. Someone who was still perfectly sharp and physically capable before that cancer, lose everything slowly, memory, the ability to move on her own, it was just a terrible affair.

I guess this is something I need to explore more, but right now with it being fresh, it just seems like poking at a scab that hasn't even dried

 

[Grildon Tundy]

In most states in the US, your "estate" (your assets and debts you have when you die) get handed over to your state's probate office. If you have no spouse, no heirs, and no will the state will then typically seize your bank accounts and liquidate your assets (sell your house and cars and anything of high value). If you have debts, such as a mortgage or car payment, credit card balances, student loan balances, back taxes owed, etc. that cash will be used to pay that off. This process typically takes several years.

Any funds left over will be sent to your state's treasurers office and will be listed as unclaimed property. Each state has different rules for claiming this - in some cases your parents (if they're still alive) could file to claim this money. But if you truly do die alone with nobody to claim it, the state treasury office just keeps it in a deposit account and draws a small amount of interest on it for presumably forever.

That's why making a will is important. Even if you have nobody to leave your money to in the event of your demise, it's usually better to leave the money to a close friend or even a charity. With a legal will, you get to decide where it goes. Without one, you're basically pumping your money into the state coffers.

This is quite eye-opening. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

 

[jason10mm]

And while we're on the subject, just roll me up in a carpet and toss me in the woods somewhere when I die. Don't let those fuckers in the death industry get a dime.

And to the shock of no one, it's totally illegal to bury a human WITHOUT all that "death industry" stuff.

 

[jason10mm]

I'm mid-30s, single, no kids, and have a decent nest egg and house. And no will.

I have no idea what happens to that money if I go. Is there a default "next of kin" hand-off to my parents or brother if go? In the US. When do people usually start the process of documenting where all their stuff goes?

It's usually spouse, then adult kids, then living parents, then siblings, then branches out to various ever more distant relatives from there. Wars have been fought between 3rd and 4th cousins over estates when the will isn't clear or can be contested.

Basically, the more money at stake, the more the lawyers and state will try to take and obscure relatives appear from nowhere.

 

[Durien]

I'd be curious what kind of thing changed your thinking (or did it?)

My mom just passed, too young, from glioblastoma, about the worst of the brain cancers. Lasted 4 years with that diagnosis, which is long for it, the prognosis is only 12-18 months. Spent the last 6 months of life in hospice.

It was a terrible thing to see. Someone who was still perfectly sharp and physically capable before that cancer, lose everything slowly, memory, the ability to move on her own, it was just a terrible affair.

I guess this is something I need to explore more, but right now with it being fresh, it just seems like poking at a scab that hasn't even dried

My attitude was originally I'll be the snowboarder in his 80s still doing runs. After reading this book, I'll be more cautious but still do outdoorsy stuff. If I remember right, he mentions in the book that 50% of falls put the elderly in nursing homes. 20% are never able to walk after the fall. When you get elderly old, the calcium from your bones begins leaches into your soft tissues.

So I grew tired of the IT gig after 25 years and returned back to school to get my degree in psychology (being layed off made it easier and i was originally going to school for psychology before starting my it career) and this book was one of 2 required for the class. (Course was Lifespan Psychology)

The book also talks about how advancements in medicine and technology can be detrimental at maintaining quality of life. He also mentioned one lady who watched her husband die while attached to machines. She didn't want that so told her kids to just let her die if something happened. Turns out her kids couldn't let her go so she ended up on machines as well.

I also went out and researched journals on End of Life hospices, cancer treatment and such. (I really went down the rabbit hole on this). One study found that doctors often failed to discuss end of life options for patients with stage 4 cancer even when the patients wanted additional info. They did the study for 2 1/2 years studying thousands of hours of audio. Even the author of the study sounded frustrated with the findings because they spent decades of hours and money to train Oncologists to recognize the signs and discuss end of life options with patients but the training wasn't working.

 

[John Marston]

My mom died of Covid in 2020 but was already suffering from dementia since 2015.
For me it was a "one two punch" where dementia set in & Covid swept in to finish the job. I felt powerless as I couldn't be with her when she passed and never imagined such a scenario.
Nobody should die alone & confused.

I struggled with guilt and hate but I'm just starting now to let go.

As my mom was cuckoo with dementia in 2018 I was diagnosed with a tumor in my colon. Another "one two punch kick in the balls"

I've already talked about my cancer and I'm lucky to be alive.

Now about being mortal and 55 years old.

Honestly D Durien nothing bothers me anymore. Zero stress. I did not have an epiphany or find a new religion but going through what I did does give you a new perspective whether you want it or not.

I dunno how to explain it but I feel "light". Zero burdens and just going along with whatever happens with a smile.

I'm not scared of death. I just don't want to suffer before it happens.

Here's a quote from Roger Ebert which helped me rationalize what little fear I had:

"I know it is coming, and I do not fear it, because I believe there is nothing on the other side of death to fear. I hope to be spared as much pain as possible on the approach path. I was perfectly content before I was born, and I think of death as the same state. What I am grateful for is the gift of intelligence, and for life, love, wonder, and laughter."

So yeah, hug your loved ones, drink beer & have some sex

 

[wondermega]

The book also talks about how advancements in medicine and technology can be detrimental at maintaining quality of life. He also mentioned one lady who watched her husband die while attached to machines. She didn't want that so told her kids to just let her die if something happened. Turns out her kids couldn't let her go so she ended up on machines as well.

This is a horrible nightmare. In some ways it really is the best time ever to be alive right now, because of how advanced medical technology has become. At the same time, reading stuff like this makes me realize it is also one of the most frightening. We should all be able to pass with dignity if we so choose. Monstrous..

 

[John Marston]

In some ways it really is the best time ever to be alive right now, because of how advanced medical technology has become.

When I go for my post cancer follow up scans & blood tests every 6 months I make it a point to thank everyone for saving my life.

If the tumor in my colon happened 10 or 20 years ago I probably would have died.

I remember after a round of chemo in early 2019 taking a taxi back home and the driver asking me how I was doing.

When I told him how improved I was he proclaimed loudly "PRAISE JESUS!"
And I immediately felt really pissed off

I was raised catholic and even served mass as a kid but what saved me was the skills and care of my surgeon Dr. Stanley Vollant.

This guy studied like a maniac for over 10 years and saved my life.
The best bedside manner; he brought me twice a Mcmuffin, tater tots & coffee.
When you're almost 3 months in hospital that is HEAVEN

His older cousin Florent was semi-famous in the 90's with his folk duo Kashtin.
I told him I was so glad he picked up a scalpel instead of a guitar like his cousin

And that cab driver? Oh poor him. The ride home was silent after I was done with him. I felt a bit bad but fuck it.

MERCI BEAUCOUP Dr. Vollant

Merci beaucoup Dr. Ayoub for the successful chemo

MERCI BEAUCOUP Dr. Roy for removing that metastasis from my liver july last year

 

[Lunarorbit]

My wife and I discussed it, and neither of us want medical bankruptcy or financial ruin for the other one, even if it means extending our life (like Miku said above, whether the extra time is meaningful is entirely subjective). If I found out I had some form or cancer or something today, and it was going to cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars to (maybe) save my life, I'd rather just die now and leave that money to my kids.

And while we're on the subject, just roll me up in a carpet and toss me in the woods somewhere when I die. Don't let those fuckers in the death industry get a dime.

I went to Sam Houston state in Texas and they have a small but really cool body farm. There was a huge drought when I lived there so the mountain lions were digging under the fence and pulling up corpses when I visited (as a grad student, you can't just show up).

The researchers were excited to see the mountain lions do this cause it was another variable to study decomposition

 

[diffusionx]

In most states in the US, your "estate" (your assets and debts you have when you die) get handed over to your state's probate office. If you have no spouse, no heirs, and no will the state will then typically seize your bank accounts and liquidate your assets (sell your house and cars and anything of high value). If you have debts, such as a mortgage or car payment, credit card balances, student loan balances, back taxes owed, etc. that cash will be used to pay that off. This process typically takes several years.

Any funds left over will be sent to your state's treasurers office and will be listed as unclaimed property. Each state has different rules for claiming this - in some cases your parents (if they're still alive) could file to claim this money. But if you truly do die alone with nobody to claim it, the state treasury office just keeps it in a deposit account and draws a small amount of interest on it for presumably forever.

That's why making a will is important. Even if you have nobody to leave your money to in the event of your demise, it's usually better to leave the money to a close friend or even a charity. With a legal will, you get to decide where it goes. Without one, you're basically pumping your money into the state coffers.

this post makes the state sound like a bunch of thieves.

sounds like, haha

 

[EverydayBeast]

Before modern civilization began ancient Egypt tried to make death a process

 

[Aesius]

My attitude was originally I'll be the snowboarder in his 80s still doing runs. After reading this book, I'll be more cautious but still do outdoorsy stuff. If I remember right, he mentions in the book that 50% of falls put the elderly in nursing homes. 20% are never able to walk after the fall. When you get elderly old, the calcium from your bones begins leaches into your soft tissues.

So I grew tired of the IT gig after 25 years and returned back to school to get my degree in psychology (being layed off made it easier and i was originally going to school for psychology before starting my it career) and this book was one of 2 required for the class. (Course was Lifespan Psychology)

The book also talks about how advancements in medicine and technology can be detrimental at maintaining quality of life. He also mentioned one lady who watched her husband die while attached to machines. She didn't want that so told her kids to just let her die if something happened. Turns out her kids couldn't let her go so she ended up on machines as well.

I also went out and researched journals on End of Life hospices, cancer treatment and such. (I really went down the rabbit hole on this). One study found that doctors often failed to discuss end of life options for patients with stage 4 cancer even when the patients wanted additional info. They did the study for 2 1/2 years studying thousands of hours of audio. Even the author of the study sounded frustrated with the findings because they spent decades of hours and money to train Oncologists to recognize the signs and discuss end of life options with patients but the training wasn't working.

Falls are killer for old people, literally.

My grandmother was in really good health and very "spry" through her late 80s. 3.5 years ago, she fell at home because she was dehydrated. She had basically gone her entire life never drinking water (instead getting fluids from coffee or juice), and when she stopped drinking those as much, she was basically getting zero fluids.

So she fell and would have died had her niece not randomly dropped by her house and saw her through the window on the floor.

She never regained full strength and mobility and has fallen multiple times since then. Now she's basically bedridden in a nursing home miserable and in pain. I think they keep her doped up 24/7 on pain and sleep meds. It's incredibly sad to see, especially knowing that there's a chance she may linger in this state of living death for the foreseeable future.

 

[Ownage]

My grandfather was a gangsta. He made a living will and gave everything to his children, wife, grandchildren, and nieces and nephews before he passed. He had a heads-up that his time was coming up, and he applied for many CCs and loans. He made sure he had zero estate in his name, as everything had been sorted. He went on a big spending trip just before he went. The banks never saw anything.

Judge as one will, but I respect the middle finger.

 

[Days like these...]

I just turned 50 I'm ready even though I look good for my age.

 

[edbrat]

I am going to see if he wrote any other books because they may also be worth a read.

I can highly recommend Checklist Manifesto - how to get things right.

The Checklist Manifesto: How To Get Things Right eBook : Gawande, Atul: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

The Checklist Manifesto: How To Get Things Right eBook : Gawande, Atul: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[AJUMP23]

You don't fear the unknown, but you do enjoy what you have right now.

 

[j0hnnix]

My fiance is a nurse so she'll have no problems whatsoever pulling the plug on me early. Just rip the band aid off.

And then making a dancing TikTok video.


To the ops point, it's insane how expensive everything gets. I ended up taking care of my mother in the final moments and it was difficult to make the final decision. Atleast in the US , if you do not have a large sum saved.. medical care is out the door. They assist some but not everything when some one really needs the care.

After seeing everything from a caretakers perspective and seeing the difficulties my mom went through I just hope a deer kicks me straight to the head and ends me to avoid anyone suffering due to my old age.

 

[Durien]

And then making a dancing TikTok video.


To the ops point, it's insane how expensive everything gets. I ended up taking care of my mother in the final moments and it was difficult to make the final decision. Atleast in the US , if you do not have a large sum saved.. medical care is out the door. They assist some but not everything when some one really needs the care.

After seeing everything from a caretakers perspective and seeing the difficulties my mom went through I just hope a deer kicks me straight to the head and ends me to avoid anyone suffering due to my old age.

There are 10 states plus DC that do the death with dignity. (Also. Alled Assisting In Death or AID) In Washington State, there are requirements and you need to be referred to the program you can't just say, put a bullet in me.
I told my wife, guaranteed under 6 months to live? I'm taking a month to get my affairs in order, do something kick ass with the family, then give me the pill because I'm not draining the savings for no reason.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I found out today that my 90 year old grandfather (last grandparent alive) has skin cancer. He’s having surgery to get it removed, but wow. He already has dementia and lives in a nursing home. I think I made the right choices except if my marriage goes to pot. I’ve got a living will and life insurance. I’ll be cremated so no extra expense of buying a casket or plot of land. I just learned that Costco sells caskets. I like the Franklin Blue if anyone cares. I’m kinda tired of thinking about getting old. There’s plenty to do, lots of people to love, and so much more. I need to find ways to do all those things.

 

[Humdinger]

Years ago, I read To Die Well, by Drs. Wanzer and Glenmullen, and A Better Way of Dying, by Drs. Fitzpatrick. Those are two other good books on the same subject. I have also listened to experienced professionals in the area talk about the tragic scenarios that people go through -- how miserable those last months or years of life can be, if you are trapped in the hospital system or nursing home system. You can lose control and just be taken over by a medical system dedicated to keeping you alive no matter what -- no matter if your quality of life is completely gone, no matter if you want to die. From the nursing home to the ER, then back to the nursing home, over and over. Meanwhile, you are a pawn, an object, and all your financial resources are drained.

I am not afraid of death at all -- but the dying process, now, that is another thing entirely. I hope I go quickly, but I don't have control over that.

Here is my nightmare scenario: I have a big stroke, and then suddenly I am unable to care for myself. I have to go into a nursing home. I spend the next few years slowly deteriorating, without any quality of life, controlled by medical professionals and the healthcare system. Depressed, wanting to die, but not having the power/control to do it myself.

I have a healthcare power of attorney and a living will set up, DNR, no extra measures, and so forth. I also have Final Exit on my shelf. I am aware of some of the methods, although I haven't read it all yet, because the subject is depressing. It was written over 20 years ago, so some of it is probably out of date.

I'm glad that Death with Dignity laws are becoming more common, but I imagine -- and someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- that you have to be a resident of that state to avail yourself of it, and that requires living there for a year or so. And from what I understand, getting the approval is a complicated process, with plenty of hurdles to jump. I don't particularly like paperwork and would prefer to DIY. Hopefully, it won't come to that, but I want to be prepared.

 

[Hudo]

obscure relatives appear from nowhere.

Can confirm that. Some years ago, a member of my family, who lived in an Eastern European country, died and suddenly "relatives" appeared that I didn't even know existed. And they were fucking vultures; they somehow gained access to the apartments of the deceased and started to "raid" them before all the will and lawyer shit was even processed. And when I pointed out to them how much they remind me of vultures and how much they behaved like stereotypical gypsies (it's a bit of a hard insult in Eastern Europe and I was pretty pissed at that point), they called me a Nazi (because the only thing they knew about me was that I am German). Interestingly, the women were the driving force behind all that shitty behaviour (mothers and daughters alike), not so much the men.

So my goal is to outlive all of these fuckers.