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[decaf]

As a Spanish and I have to say the Gibraltar thing is not very serious here, people just kneejerk and shout Gibraltar español! around the issue. It's very shallow, petty kind of nationalism.

@Impulsor: this.

 

[Impulsor]

As a Spanish and I have to say the Gibraltar thing is not very serious here, people just kneejerk and shout Gibraltar español! around the issue. It's very shallow, petty kind of nationalism. Not that different from the Catalonian issue.

It's kind of pathetic imo, how in this day with the huuge and worrying news of UK leaving Europe, I have heard lots of time in the radio (or even work colleagues comments) about the Gibraltar news, and the possibility of taking sovereignty. UK leaving Europe? That's was secondary.

Not here where I work. It is true there has been some joking around with "Gibraltar Español" and all that, but Brexit is the main subjecto of the conversations.

Maybe it has to do with our jobs?

I work in the Consulting business, in a big four, for a big Spanish bank that has a lot in stake in the UK.

@Impulsor: this.

People can say whatever they want, in the end its you guys who decide. I understand the feeling though, and I agree that its a petty type of nationalism.

I'll add that what is sadder than this though, is that the people that make fun of you guys and joke around or are even serious about it, don't have any idea about the history behind it all.

 

[Khaz]

Couldn't Gibraltar become the Monaco of Spain? I mean it's half way there already, it just needs some special agreements between an "independent" Gibraltar and Spain.

 

[decaf]

Couldn't Gibraltar become the Monaco of Spain? I mean it's half way there already, it just needs some special agreements between an "independent" Gibraltar and Spain.

IIRC an independent Gibraltar invalidates the Treaty of Utrecht, returning Gibraltar to Spain by default. Spain does not want an independent Gibraltar.

 

[Funky Papa]

IIRC an independent Gibraltar invalidates the Treaty of Utrecht, returning Gibraltar to Spain by default. Spain does not want an independent Gibraltar.

Nobody knows that, though. It's something that has never been taken into serious consideration.

And treaties can be revised. That's something that happens all the time.

I mean, Gibraltar has been violating the Treaty of Utrecht by allowing Jews and Muslims to take residence in the rock...

 

[decaf]

People can say whatever they want, in the end its you guys who decide.

Sure, but we are only 30,000 people, so it's not easy to ignore millions of Spaniards singing nationalistic songs at us. It's ridiculous for Spanish people to wonder "Why are Gibraltarians so pissed off at us?" While chanting "Gibraltar Español" at the same time, even in jest.

 

[Impulsor]

Nobody knows that, though. It's something that has never been taken into serious consideration.

And treaties can be revised. That's something that happens all the time.

I mean, Gibraltar has been violating the Treaty of Utrecht by allowing Jews and Muslims to take residence in the rock...

Specially when it's a treaty that is 300 years old, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Funky Papa]

Sure, but we are only 30,000 people, so it's not easy to ignore millions of Spaniards singing nationalistic songs at us. It's ridiculous for Spanish people to wonder "Why are Gibraltarians so pissed off at us?" While chanting "Gibraltar Español" at the same time, even in jest.

Most of the time the people singing "Gibraltar Español" are actually mocking Spanish nationalism. Your perception is skewed, probably due to your regional setting.

 

[Impulsor]

Sure, but we are only 30,000 people, so it's not easy to ignore millions of Spaniards singing nationalistic songs at us. It's ridiculous for Spanish people to wonder "Why are Gibraltarians so pissed off at us?" While chanting "Gibraltar Español" at the same time, even in jest.

I understand, and I'm sorry in the name of my fellow Spaniards

Most of the time the people singing "Gibraltar Español" are actually mocking Spanish nationalism. Your perception is skewed, probably due to your regional setting.

Yeah, most of the time I hear it nowadays its right after talking about Catalonia or something like that.

 

[decaf]

I mean, Gibraltar has been violating the Treaty of Utrecht by allowing Jews and Muslims to take residence in the rock...

It was an infraction rather than a violation. I know you are playing devil's advocate by pointing out such a ridiculous part of the treaty, but surely you do understand that while most Spanish people don't care, Spain wants Gibraltar back as a point of contention. If no-one in Spain actually gave a fuck, the Spanish government would just leave us alone.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Gibraltar may have wanted to mostly stay EU, but no way in hell they wanna be part of Spain.

A joint govern referendum happened in 2002, 99% answered 'no'.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Spain straight trolling. I support this.

 

[Funky Papa]

It was an infraction rather than a violation. I know you are playing devil's advocate by pointing out such a ridiculous part of the treaty, but surely you do understand that while most Spanish people don't care, Spain wants Gibraltar back as a point of contention. If no-one in Spain actually gave a fuck, the Spanish government would just leave us alone.

You are asking for the enterity of a country with a population of over 40 million people to not care about one of our neighbours in a way that doesn't offend you.

That is not going to happen. Be glad knowing that those who are out there being dicks are a small and shrinking minority while the issue becomes less contentious each year it passes. I don't feel any more represented by them than you probably do by the Llanitos treating Spaniards like garbage. Dickery is a universal constant.

 

[Impulsor]

It was an infraction rather than a violation. I know you are playing devil's advocate by pointing out such a ridiculous part of the treaty, but surely you do understand that while most Spanish people don't care, Spain wants Gibraltar back as a point of contention. If no-one in Spain actually gave a fuck, the Spanish government would just leave us alone.

Yeah, he is using that to explain his point about treaties being able to be revised.

In any case, I think you guys will have another referendum, you'll vote to stay with the UK, and that's that.

 

[decaf]

Most of the time the people singing "Gibraltar Español" are actually mocking Spanish nationalism. Your perception is skewed, probably due to your regional setting.

While I'm sure it's also used in that tongue-in-cheek scenario, when Spanish people are shouting it at us, I respectfully disagree that it's being used in that way.

It's just very, very tiring. Refreshing to see opinions from Spanish people in this thread though, I must say.

 

[Funky Papa]

While I'm sure it's also used in that tongue-in-cheek scenario, when Spanish people are shouting it at us, I respectfully disagree that it's being used in that way.

Again, you are facing the vocifeous minority using being serious about the whole "Gibraltar Español" thing. They are probably more common down there than they are anywhere else in the country (hence the bit about your regional setting). Spain as a whole is mostly indifferent towards you.

 

[Impulsor]

Again, you are facing the vocifeous minority using being serious about the whole "Gibraltar Español" thing. They are probably more common down there than they are anywhere else in the country (hence the bit about your regional setting). Spain as a whole is mostly indifferent towards you.

I guess that most people that are like that are your neighbours from Cádiz.

 

[Coriolanus]

That is not going to happen. Be glad knowing that those who are out there being dicks are a small and shrinking minority while the issue becomes less contentious each year it passes.

i see what you did there

 

[decaf]

I have to say Funky Papa, I admire how balanced your opinions are in this thread and others. I've always assumed you're Spanish, but in any case you wield the English language better than any native English teacher or academic I've ever met. I digress.

 

[dalin80]

And I want a carol vorderman/ Kelly Brook threesome... But that isn't going to happen either.

The UK would go to war before Spain has any sovereignty over Gibraltar.

 

[Oriel]

Spain has its own constitutional problems as it is, with Catalonia and the Basque Country looking for independence. That said maybe some sort of HK style autonomy for Gib inside Spain might be worth exploring. Basically Madrid offers Gib complete autonomy in return for coming under Spanish sovereignty. No border checkpoints as well. A win win all round.

 

[Afro Thunder]

Scotland thinking again about independence.

Northern Ireland thinking about reunification with Ireland.

Spain eyeing Gibraltar.

So, when it Argentine making it's move on the Falkland Islands?

As soon as they win the Copa América on sunday.

 

[Metroxed]

Why on earth would the people of Gibraltar choose Spain over Britain?

Not going to happen. Look at the unemployment rate of Spain.

It's not about "wanting" really. Gibraltar's only land border is with Spain; wealthy Gibraltarians own second homes in Spain and the rest heavily rely on moving goods between Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltar leaving the EU means permanently closed borders, and that would be disastrous for their economy. They voted like 96% in favour of remaining in the EU.

I'm not saying that they should join Spain, but being out of the EU is very, very bad for Gibraltar.

 

[dalin80]

It's not about "wanting" really. Gibraltar's only land border is with Spain; wealthy Gibraltarians own second homes in Spain and the rest heavily rely on moving goods between Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltar leaving the EU means permanently closed borders, and that would be disastrous for their economy. They voted like 96% in favour of remaining in the EU.

I'm not saying that they should join Spain, but being out of the EU is very, very bad for Gibraltar.

Have been there on holiday twice in recent years and a relative was stationed there, Gibraltans *hate* spain, the rock would burn before there is any discussion of sovereignty there. Yes sorting out the logistics in the future will suck and it almost certainly come with quite a price increase but nothing spain proposes will be accepted.

It's as about as likely as Falklanders deciding they not only want to be part of Argentina but they would also love to give Kirchner foot massages.

 

[Crow Pudding]

Gibraltar unification is a topic in right wing political parties in spain. But now they are more worried as how the brexit will impact in the catalonian and basque independence ambitions.

 

[Metroxed]

Have been there on holiday twice in recent years and a relative was stationed there, Gibraltans *hate* spain, the rock would burn before there is any discussion of sovereignty there. Yes sorting out the logistics in the future will suck and it almost certainly come with quite a price increase but nothing spain proposes will be accepted.

It's as about as likely as Falklanders deciding they not only want to be part of Argentina but they would also love to give Kirchner foot massages.

Hate? Most Gibraltarians have second homes in the other side of the border and many have some level of Spanish ancestry (to the point of having their own Spanish dialect). They feel pretty much British though, there's no questions about that and of course they don't want to join Spain. But "hate" is a strong word I'd not use.

 

[dalin80]

Hate? Most Gibraltarians have second homes in the other side of the border and many have some level of Spanish ancestry (to the point of having their own Spanish dialect). They feel pretty much British though, there's no questions about that and of course they don't want to join Spain. But "hate" is a strong word I'd not use.

You may be right, I hardly spoke to all of them!

Maybe hate was too strong of a word... maybe.

Either way this is Spain being opportunistic in one of it's frequent attempts at reasserting rights over Gib. Not helpful and very transparent.

 

[Pancake Mix]

The Spanish government's position is appalling. The citizens of Gibraltar have as much right to self-determination as any other, and they're not going anywhere. The 2002 vote said it all. Gibraltar is not leaving exclusive UK sovereignty, and that is despite disappointment in this vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002

It is also amazingly hypocritical of Spain when they have the final colonies on continental Africa....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta_and_Melilla

 

[Acidote]

The Spanish government's position is appalling. The citizens of Gibraltar have as much right to self-determination as any other, and they're not going anywhere. The 2002 vote said it all. Gibraltar is not leaving exclusive UK sovereignty, and that is despite disappointment in this vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002

It is also amazingly hypocritical of Spain when they have the final colonies on continental Africa....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta_and_Melilla

I agree that the position is appalling, with the rights of Gibraltarians and everything else you said, but I have to point out one thing:

Ceuta and Melilla are not and have never been colonies. At least not since the Phoenician times (Abyla & Rusadir).

I'm sure that Spain has some other territories somewhere to make your point, but those two cities are not.

 

[Busty]

Next fing they'll want is the Falklands back in da EU.

*puts bowler hat on bulldog*

Ovah my dead body.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I agree that the position is appalling, with the rights of Gibraltarians and everything else you said, but I have to point out one thing:

Ceuta and Melilla are not and have never been colonies. At least not since the Phoenician times (Abyla & Rusadir).

I'm sure that Spain has some other territories somewhere to make your point, but those two cities are not.

Officially they are integral parts of Spain and have been for centuries, but try telling that to Morocco, who behaves the exact same way as Spain behaves with Gibraltar. It's also worth noting that Spain controlled two larger chunks of Morocco until 1956-1958.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_protectorate_in_Morocco

The fact is that the people of both Spain's areas in Africa and Britain's area on the Iberian peninsula have the right to self-determination and are probably quite happy with the status quo. Spain just has no leg to stand on for Gibraltar. Just because Gibraltar is an overseas territory does not entitle Spain to its return.

Morocco and Spain both have no leg to stand on.

 

[hans_castorp]

It just the PP being the PP. Most spaniards don´t really care about Gibraltar.

And by the way, about those morons from Vox you arrested last week. You can keep them. Seriously, we don´t want them back.
And while you are on it take Santiago Abascal too, please.