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[Partial Gamification]

The Chinese government on Saturday claimed the right to identify, monitor and possibly take military action against aircraft that enter a newly declared “air defense identification zone,” which covers sea and islands also claimed by Japan and threatens to escalate an already tense dispute over some of the maritime territory.
[...]
The move appeared to be another step in China’s efforts to intensify pressure on Japan over Japanese-controlled islands in the East China Sea that are at the heart of the dispute.

The declaration, from a Chinese Ministry of National Defense spokesman, Col. Yang Yujun, accompanied the ministry’s release of a map, geographic coordinates and rules that Colonel Yang said authorized treating an area alongside the eastern Chinese coast as the air defense identification zone.

“The objective is to defend national sovereignty and territorial and air security, as well as to maintain orderly aviation,” Colonel Yang said in comments issued on the ministry’s website in both Chinese and English.

“China’s armed forces will take defensive emergency measures to respond to aircraft that do not cooperate in identification or refuse to follow orders,” said the rules issued by the ministry, also in Chinese and English.
[...]
source

I'm curious what people think about this and how its being interpreted around the World, especially from the gaffers in China and Japan.
Does this tie-in with the other annoucement this week:

Zipping between mainland cities on a private plane or helicopter should become quicker and easier after the government said it was loosening the military's grip over airspace.

From next month, small commercial flights will no longer have to get People's Liberation Army approval for flight plans. They will only need permission from the regional branch of the civil aviation administration.

This should cut the waiting time for permission to take off from several days to a few hours, giving a boost to the nascent private aviation sector.

The change - which applies only to general aviation and will not affect scheduled flights - was announced by the PLA and the Civil Aviation Administration.

"Some people regard it as a ground-breaking measure. Others regard it as the dawn of China's general aviation business. It is good news for everyone," said Wu Qing, general sales manager with GALink Aviation, a general aviation service provider in Changsha , Hunan .

About 1,000 planes were registered for general aviation last year, compared with more than 220,000 in the United States.

Certain restrictions will remain. Flights that cross borders, including into Hong Kong, or go through sensitive areas, will stay under the control of military air traffic authorities. Flights operated by holders of foreign passports will still need PLA approval.
[...]
source

Please, lets be respectful and considerate toward this territorial dispute.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

In that image, the Chinese Defence Ministry does not consider Taiwan to be part of their territory?

 

[Piecake]

In that image, the Chinese Defence Ministry does not consider Taiwan to be part of their territory?

That zone means that they claim the right to take action against. It says nothing about claimed territory. It would be pretty stupid to include Taiwan in that considering that they would be unable to enforce it since enforcing it means blowing up the whole damn country, which would obviously start a war with, well, everyone.

Hopefully this is just the Chinese government giving hardliners a bone after the proposed economic and social changes that have happened recently

 

[Enkidu]

In that image, the Chinese Defence Ministry does not consider Taiwan to be part of their territory?

The image probably wasn't made by China, just based on the new data they provided. And even then, the Defence Ministry probably has to be pragmatic about these matters and accept that whatever the political stance is, China does not actually control the sea around Taiwan.

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

Don't worry, I'm sure the UN will resolve this situation amicably and a safely?

... bwahahahah I can't keep a straight face.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The image probably wasn't made by China, just based on the new data they provided. And even then, the Defence Ministry probably has to be pragmatic about these matters and accept that whatever the political stance is, China does not actually control the sea around Taiwan.

They don't control the sea around the disputed islands, either, but that doesn't stop them from claiming it.

 

[braves01]

More bullshit from China about far fetched territorial claims.

 

[pants]

More bullshit from China about far fetched territorial claims.

.

 

[Enkidu]

They don't control the sea around the disputed islands, either, but that doesn't stop them from claiming it.

The difference is that nobody truly controls the area around those islands, Taiwan is very much under Taiwanese/Nato control though. If China claims that they will take action against any unidentified aircraft around Taiwan they will either quickly start a war they cannot win or have their bluff called.

 

[Ether_Snake]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea

lol

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The difference is that nobody truly controls the area around those islands, Taiwan is very much under Taiwanese/Nato control though. If China claims that they will take action against any unidentified aircraft around Taiwan they will either quickly start a war they cannot win or have their bluff called.

While it may not be to the same scale as with Taiwan, armed conflict at some level will be unavoidable if they try to do the same thing around the disputed territory.

I see your point, though.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Title reads "S China Sea," should be East China Sea.


South China sea is a big energy region in dispute too.

 

[BeerSnob]

The last time China tried to seize Vietnamese land it uh, did not go so great for the middle kingdom. Now, with their push to hyper accelerate their economy, it makes ZERO sense to be antagonizing their neighbors. This plus the announcement a month ago to the U.S which basically amounted to "Hey, hey, hey...we could nuke you you know.", China be acting weird.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The last time China tried to seize Vietnamese land it uh, did not go so great for the middle kingdom. Now, with their push to hyper accelerate their economy, it makes ZERO sense to be antagonizing their neighbors. This plus the announcement a month ago to the U.S which basically amounted to "Hey, hey, hey...we could nuke you you know.", China be acting weird.

As the economy grows and disparity between classes gets bigger and bigger, the legitimacy of the ruling government increasingly comes into question. They have to show their citizens that they are strong.

 

[jerry1594]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea

lol

What the fuck lol

 

[leroidys]

Regardless of who you think should own these islands, that is an incredibly aggressive move to unilaterally make unprovoked. If the international community doesn't deal with this in some way (and they won't), expect to see a LOT more of this behavior from China in the next decade.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea

lol

Lol none of these are reasonable.

 

[Ecotic]

What the fuck lol

China's rationale is they own the tiny Spratley Islands down there and hence they own all the surrounding waters too. In their mind they're not unreasonably extending their maritime borders, because they own land there! It's really quite ingenious, it'd be like America finding a tiny rock off the Brazilian coast, claiming it's theirs, and sending military ships to take control of the fishing grounds there in a hundred mile radius.

 

[linsivvi]

Regardless of who you think should own these islands, that is an incredibly aggressive move to unilaterally make unprovoked. If the international community doesn't deal with this in some way (and they won't), expect to see a LOT more of this behavior from China in the next decade.

False.

 

[leroidys]

False.

What specific incident provoked it?

 

[linsivvi]

What specific incident provoked it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11341139

In April 2012, a fresh row ensued after outspoken Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara said he would use public money to buy the islands from their private Japanese owner.

Japan's Defence Ministry appeared to float the idea in October 2013 that it had the right to shoot down any foreign drones approaching its airspace, sparking an angry reaction from Beijing.

It's not like there's only one side doing the provoking. There are multiple parties from China, Japan and Taiwan doing the provoking. To say it's only China doing it is to completely ignore what's been happening.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea

lol

I love this image. "All this shit is mine because of a map someone drew a thousand years ago"

 

[Slayven]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea

lol

The islands need some self confidence.

 

[BeerSnob]

I love this image. "All this shit is mine because of a map someone drew a thousand years ago"

Just imagine if the U.K. did this. They could just point at a globe and be like, "Yup, mine, all mine."

 

[leroidys]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11341139





It's not like there's only one side doing the provoking. There are multiple parties from China, Japan and Taiwan doing the provoking. To say it's only China doing it is to completely ignore what's been happening.

Where did I say everything was China's fault? Notice how in my post I specifically said "regardless of who you think is right..."

THIS SPECIFIC INCIDENT was not provoked by a specific action taken by any other party. That is why I called it an aggressive, unilateral move.

By your logic, if the DPRK attacks RoK tomorrow, they would have been "provoked", or if PRC tomorrow claims and starts enforcing soverignty over Taiwan's territorial waters, they would have been "provoked" by the Kuomintang.

 

[Cameron122]

National Sovereignty is fuckin' stupid made up bullshit

 

[linsivvi]

Where did I say everything was China's fault? Notice how in my post I specifically said "regardless of who you think is right..."

THIS SPECIFIC INCIDENT was not provoked by a specific action taken by any other party. That is why I called it an aggressive, unilateral move.

By your logic, if the DPRK attacks RoK tomorrow, they would have been "provoked", or if PRC tomorrow claims and starts enforcing soverignty over Taiwan's territorial waters, they would have been "provoked" by the Kuomintang.

What the hell? You have reading problem or what?

Japan's Defence Ministry appeared to float the idea in October 2013 that it had the right to shoot down any foreign drones approaching its airspace, sparking an angry reaction from Beijing.

That was one month ago and this is the direct response to that. What's with that attitude and the ridiculously terrible analogy?

And FWIW I did not accuse you of the bolded part. You said:

that is an incredibly aggressive move to unilaterally make unprovoked.

And I said:

To say it's only China doing it is to completely ignore what's been happening.

Learn how to read and don't be so aggressive.

 

[leroidys]

EDIT: Not worth it.

 

[ComputerMKII]

China sends fighters to ID flights by US and Japan

BEIJING -- China launched two fighter planes Friday to investigate flights by a dozen U.S. and Japanese reconnaissance and military planes in its newly established maritime air defense zone over the East China Sea, state media said.

The state-run China News quoted Defense Ministry spokesman Col. Shen Jinke as saying the Chinese fighter jets identified and monitored the two U.S. and 10 Japanese aircraft during their flights through the zone early Friday, but made no mention of any further action.

China announced last week that all aircraft entering the zone — a maritime area between China, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan — must notify Chinese authorities beforehand, and that it would take unspecified defensive measures against those that don't comply. Neighboring countries and the U.S. have said they will not honor the new zone and have criticized the move, saying it unnecessarily raises tensions.

It was the first time China said it sent military planes into the zone on the same day as foreign military flights since proclaiming the zone on Nov. 23.

The United States and other countries have warned that the new zone could boost chances for miscalculations, accidents and conflicts, though analysts believe Beijing's move is not intended to spark any aerial confrontations but rather a long-term strategy to solidify claims to disputed territory by simply marking the area as its own.

The zone is seen primarily as China's latest bid to bolster its claim over a string of uninhabited Japanese-controlled islands in the East China Sea known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China. Beijing has been ratcheting up its sovereignty claims since Tokyo's nationalization of the islands last year.

There are questions whether China has the technical ability to fully enforce the zone due to a shortage of early warning radar aircraft and in-flight refueling capability.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/...86163/china-sends-fighters-to-id-flights.html

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Childish.

Not that accountability means anything to the Chinese government. The world needs to agree to make it a war crime to attack countries like Japan and Germany who don't have an offensive army, until then China will keep waving its dick around thinking it's all high and mighty provoking such a defenceless country.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Just imagine if the U.K. did this. They could just point at a globe and be like, "Yup, mine, all mine."

I guess after Europe colonized the world everyone's jealous and want to try it at least once, first America, now China.

 

[Piecake]

U.S. Advises Commercial Jets to Honor China’s Rules

Well, at least they are only advising commercial planes to do this. I can see the rationale. They don't want a 747 blown up by some some crazed, nationalistic Chinese airpilot (not saying they are all like this, but I imagine they are a few in there, just like every military).

Hopefully the military will still send the occasional jet through that airspace because that is a bunch of BS

 

[Slayer-33]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea

lol

China don't give a fuck

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I guess after Europe colonized the world everyone's jealous and want to try it at least once, first America, now China.

USA was colonizing with the best of them, it's just that they got to keep 98% of it. Modern CONUS is a lot bigger than it was in 1779! A lot of people don't think of westward expansion and annexation of Mexican territories as being the same kind of thing as European colonialism, but they served to satisfy many of the same drives.

 

[Piecake]

USA was colonizing with the best of them, it's just that they got to keep 98% of it. Modern CONUS is a lot bigger than it was in 1779! A lot of people don't think of westward expansion and annexation of Mexican territories as being the same kind of thing as European colonialism, but they served to satisfy many of the same drives.

Lesson is, if you want to colonize something, make sure its connected to your own territory. See China (Tibet and Xinjiang) and USA

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Lesson is, if you want to colonize something, make sure its connected to your own territory. See China (Tibet and Xinjiang) and USA

And Russia

 

[Madness]

More bullshit from China about far fetched territorial claims.

^ Should have been first post. They have so many territorial disputes with neighbors and yet they deny the chance for any international mediation because they'll be in the wrong 90% of the time. Look at how they invaded Tibet and no one really cared.

China isn't some monolithic entity that has existed for thousands of years, but is basically a modern nation state trying to grab as much land because at some point in the past 2000+ years, some person of 'chinese' ancestry explored or walked there. Imagine if Mongolia did the same thing? Or India.

 

[leroidys]

^ Should have been first post. They have so many territorial disputes with neighbors and yet they deny the chance for any international mediation because they'll be in the wrong 90% of the time. Look at how they invaded Tibet and no one really cared.

China isn't some monolithic entity that has existed for thousands of years, but is basically a modern nation state trying to grab as much land because at some point in the past 2000+ years, some person of 'chinese' ancestry explored or walked there. Imagine if Mongolia did the same thing? Or India.

Much of the territory they claim wasn't even explored or conquered by Chinese people. Manchuria, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang et al were conquered by foreigners that conquered China as well, such as the Mongols and Jurchen. Now China claims that these territories have been part of China for centuries, when the reality is often that they were only conquered and subjugated by foreign (non-Han Chinese) invaders. Mongolia owning Xinjiang makes more sense than China. (Not being entirely serious about the last part, but Chinese claims are just as silly.)

 

[Tabris]

How do you define the set of peoples that should "own" the land? Is it the original people that first settled or colonized the land? Is it the original conquerors? The last conquerors?

Note - Remember the history of North America before you respond so you don't sound hypocritical.

EDIT - You can use this http://geacron.com/home-en/ to see the transitions between what the Han ruled at one time and the peoples that conquered the Han at one time.

 

[leroidys]

How do you define the set of peoples that should "own" the land? Is it the original people that first settled or colonized the land? Is it the original conquerors? The last conquerors?

Note - Remember the history of North America before you respond so you don't sound hypocritical.

Are you talking to me? The illegal seizure and intermittent genocides of American Indians was a crime on the level of the holocaust. I wouldn't compare it to China occupying Tibet.

 

[leroidys]

Also, please tell me what I'm supposed to be looking at on that map? The Jin, Qing and Yuan dynasties were not Chinese.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

I wonder who really cares besides the governments and nationalists.
Its just about some rare metal, why the conflict broke out (at least in such a scale) last year isnt it?

Everyone acts like a child. Japan letting nationalists entering the islands to make fun of China, China doing this shit now.

I somehow think in about 2-3 years we dont hear about it anymore for a while.

 

[leroidys]

I wonder who really cares besides the governments and nationalists.
Its just about some rare metal, why the conflict broke out (at least in such a scale) last year isnt it?

Everyone acts like a child. Japan letting nationalists entering the islands to make fun of China, China doing this shit now.

I somehow think in about 2-3 years we dont hear about it anymore for a while.

Nah it's not just about minerals. The surrounding water is of great strategic significance to China. Taiwan has the most to lose here.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Nah it's not just about minerals. The surrounding water is of great strategic significance to China. Taiwan has the most to lose here.

But why now then? It was pretty quiet before they found the minerals there, at least compared to what we have now. Isnt that right?

 

[leroidys]

But why now then? It was pretty quiet before they found the minerals there, at least compared to what we have now. Isnt that right?

Yeah. As you alluded to, it was idiotic Japanese nationalists that really heated things up last year. It remains to be seen whether that was bad for Japan in the long run or not. China was playing the long game, slowly just taking what they want incrementally while their economy and military power grows. The action of Japanese nationalists forces China's hand, and makes it a much more visible issue.

This is all my armchair analysis, of course. I don't claim to be any sort of authority on the conflict.

 

[KevinRo]

Here's all the ADIZ's in East Asia for reference.

Why China included South Korea in their own zone is baffling.

 

[Piecake]

Here's all the ADIZ's in East Asia for reference.

Why China included South Korea in their own zone is baffling.

Korea has long been a tribute nation to China. It is China's duty to protect them. Anyway, I think you are reading that graph wrong. It says that that is Korea's ADZ, not China's. The big Issue is that Japan and CHina's ADZ overlap it looks liek

 

[TheRedSnifit]

The world needs to agree to make it a war crime to attack countries like Japan and Germany who don't have an offensive army, until then China will keep waving its dick around thinking it's all high and mighty provoking such a defenceless country.

That'll stop them!

 

[KevinRo]

Korea has long been a tribute nation to China. It is China's duty to protect them. Anyway, I think you are reading that graph wrong. It says that that is Korea's ADZ, not China's. The big Issue is that Japan and CHina's ADZ overlap it looks liek

What the fuck did I just read?

China's ADIZ overlaps Korea's ADIZ because of their mutual claim of an underwater rock formation. This isn't just some issue with China and Japan, perhaps it is directed primarily at Japan as a statement but it's more than that. It's China saying fuck rationality, I'm going to do my own thing.

Another thing to note is that the ADIZ rules that China laid down is completely different than those of her neighboring countries.

*edit*

To the uninformed. I said it was baffling that China would include South Korea's ADIZ into its own ADIZ because they both have common island disputes with Japan. With rising anti-Japanese sentiment in China and Korea, China could have used a partner with these disputes. Instead, they've done pissed off everyone in the neighborhood.

 

[Piecake]

What the fuck did I just read?

China's ADIZ overlaps Korea's ADIZ because of their mutual claim of an underwater rock formation. This isn't just some issue with China and Japan, perhaps it is directed primarily at Japan as a statement but it's more than that. It's China saying fuck rationality, I'm going to do my own thing.

Another thing to note is that the ADIZ rules that China laid down is completely different than those of her neighboring countries.

*edit*

To the uninformed. I said it was baffling that China would include South Korea's ADIZ into its own ADIZ because they both have common island disputes with Japan. With rising anti-Japanese sentiment in China and Korea, China could have used a partner with these disputes. Instead, they've done pissed off everyone in the neighborhood.

The first two sentences were a joke.

And where does China's ADZ extend into South Korea's ADZ? I am honestly not seeing it. I mean, they certainly border each other in the North, and China's claim is ridiculous, but correct me if I am wrong, youre making the claim that China's claim extends into SK airspace, right?