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[SnapShot]

where part of the game or game's assets won't be available inside the installation and can only be streamed from publisher's servers.

Fortnite does this I believe, thousands of skins, emotes...etc (and even entire islands) are stored in servers and only loaded / downloaded on request

 

[BlackTron]

People pirate entire mmo's, won't work.

Even MMO's work by installing the whole client, that connects to server. All the files needed to run the game are still local. When it updates, you install those updates first and then play.

What he's talking about, is having actual game data, such as textures or even more critical than that, streamed from a server. So they aren't loaded into your RAM from the HDD, it comes in through the ethernet cable. This could be a real nail in the coffin because to pirate that, you'd need to figure out how to emulate that server that feeds all the game data...with all the data, while getting around the security they designed around it. Then that server would be pushing the game data to all the clients, which would be costly and high-bandwidth...unless you emulate the server locally for a single player game, perhaps on another PC.

Uh, yeah...

 

[Mayar]

No one has yet come up with a better defense than GFWL - the games just didn't work, so they still have a long way to go to reach the ideal.
I hope people understand that this is a joke and don't throw stones at me.

 

[RCX]

And now Star Wars Galactic Racer has removed Denuvo before launch. Maybe a sign of it suddenly being a very poor use of development budget

 

[I wasn't selling any]

That's not happening.

It will where it's possible, which includes everything non-portable. And it will happen rather sooner than later.

People pirate entire mmo's, won't work.

People do, but it takes a long time to reverse engineer and build a sandbox. For MaNgOS, one of first WoW emulators, it took almost a decade to be in a state worth mentioning. I'm pretty sure even single player games will be developed with some kind of always-online-mandatory in the near future.

 

[Guilty_AI]

What he's talking about, is having actual game data, such as textures or even more critical than that, streamed from a server. So they aren't loaded into your RAM from the HDD, it comes in through the ethernet cable.

Except this shit doesn't exist. Streaming assets still require caching data locally on disk, otherwise the whole process becomes highly inneficient.

The only realistic thing i can think of that would completely kill piracy is cloud gaming.

 

[KyoZz]

It will where it's possible, which includes everything non-portable. And it will happen rather sooner than later.

Well there's a difference between "all games will use always-online-DRM" which was your first sentence and "where it's possible". Define what you call "where it's possible" please.

Single player games for exemple? Because as I said it's not happening.

 

[Guilty_AI]

It will where it's possible, which includes everything non-portable. And it will happen rather sooner than later.

Online backends and integrations are massive undertakings, especially when its technically unnecessary since devs would have to make up stuff, break perfectly functional processes and reinvent the wheel. Theres a reason why these companies just go ahead and buy some licenses from denuvo instead of turning their games into improptu single player mmos.

 

[BlackTron]

Except this shit doesn't exist. Streaming assets still require caching data locally on disk, otherwise the whole process becomes highly inneficient.

The only realistic thing i can think of that would completely kill piracy is cloud gaming.

I know data is probably cached, shit even if not by design, you could make it go into a page file and at that point it's "on the hdd", for that matter, you could capture it directly from RAM. I was just trying to make my answer simpler because this is still a massive magnitude greater in complexity than all the files simply being installed, and we're talking about a potential future where they clamp down on this. The game can be made in a way that it becomes very difficult to both crack and mod it to use all the piecemeal files you'd collected because it doesn't automatically load cached files, it expects doses of them, maybe even with changing hashes/identifiers because the DRM was baked into how it works. Nothing is ever impossible and anything can be modded, but they can make this a nightmare.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I know data is probably cached, shit even if not by design, you could make it go into a page file and at that point it's "on the hdd", for that matter, you could capture it directly from RAM. I was just trying to make my answer simpler because this is still a massive magnitude greater in complexity than all the files simply being installed, and we're talking about a potential future where they clamp down on this. The game can be made in a way that it becomes very difficult to both crack and mod it to use all the piecemeal files you'd collected because it doesn't automatically load cached files, it expects doses of them, maybe even with changing hashes/identifiers because the DRM was baked into how it works. Nothing is ever impossible and anything can be modded, but they can make this a nightmare.

You're creating solutions too complicated for the problem. Like i said, instead of all of this, if they were that worried about piracy/mods, it'd be simpler to just make the game cloud-only.

 

[memoryman3]

Better yet, Denuvo could fuck off and stop causing issues for paying consumers.

So you want AAA games to become console exclusive? Because that is what will ultimately happen if Denuvo gets taken off and piracy sites become easy to access under the guise of "preservation"

 

[winjer]

So you want AAA games to become console exclusive?

That is a false argument, based on incorrect premises.

 

[memoryman3]

That is a false argument, based on incorrect premises.

Not incorrect. It has been established that piracy and the like will completely cannibalise game sales if made convenient. Microsoft gave us a great case study with Game Pass and the effect on game sales.

 

[Bojji]

So you want AAA games to become console exclusive? Because that is what will ultimately happen if Denuvo gets taken off and piracy sites become easy to access under the guise of "preservation"

What? Do you think they wouldn't release games if denuvo didn't exist?

Pirates don't buy games, they wouldn't buy the game they are pirating right now if it had denuvo - they don't have money or just want everything for free. Small percentage would do that but of course corpos are counting every download as potential copy sold - this is insane.

 

[KyoZz]

So you want AAA games to become console exclusive? Because that is what will ultimately happen if Denuvo gets taken off and piracy sites become easy to access under the guise of "preservation"

Found the one Denuvo employee here
I wonder how gaming survived all these years without Denuvo, thank God they saved the industry.

 

[Bojji]

Found the one Denuvo employee here
I wonder how gaming survived all these years without Denuvo, thank God they saved the industry.

Yeah, denuvo became quite popular few years ago, we had whole PS4 gen with PC AAA releases - day one (with only small minority of them having denuvo).

 

[memoryman3]

What? Do you think they wouldn't release games if denuvo didn't exist?

Of course! Porting to PC isn't free. AAA companies would determine that porting to PC costs them money and sales, and will opt to divert buyers to PS5 and Xbox Series.

Pirates don't buy games, they wouldn't buy the game they are pirating right now if it had denuvo - they don't have money or just want everything for free. Small percentage would do that but of course corpos are counting every download as potential copy sold - this is insane.

This is incorrect. Many pirates do have the means to buy games. Piracy just gives them a risk free trial. Again, pointing to Game Pass, many Ultimate subscribers bought Call of Duty for full price day one before it arrived on the service.

 

[Bojji]

Of course! Porting to PC isn't free. AAA companies would determine that porting to PC costs them money and sales, and will opt to divert buyers to PS5 and Xbox Series.



This is incorrect. Many pirates do have the means to buy games. Piracy just gives them a risk free trial. Again, pointing to Game Pass, many Ultimate subscribers bought Call of Duty for full price day one before it arrived on the service.

You have to pay for gamepass...

Before denuvo became popular - how on earth PC was getting all those AAA games day one? And game development of PC version starts with console versions, they are not making ports. Not to mention - denovo costs money



That's why it's dropped after 1-3 years.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Of course! Porting to PC isn't free. AAA companies would determine that porting to PC costs them money and sales, and will opt to divert buyers to PS5 and Xbox Series.

AAA companies are making huge bucks on pc even with piracy . Elden Ring? Cyberpunk? Baldurs gate 3? Kingdom Come Deliverance 2? Expedition 33? All pirated day 0.

 

[ReyBrujo]

What he's talking about, is having actual game data, such as textures or even more critical than that, streamed from a server. So they aren't loaded into your RAM from the HDD, it comes in through the ethernet cable. This could be a real nail in the coffin because to pirate that, you'd need to figure out how to emulate that server that feeds all the game data...with all the data, while getting around the security they designed around it. Then that server would be pushing the game data to all the clients, which would be costly and high-bandwidth...unless you emulate the server locally for a single player game, perhaps on another PC.

GAAS with a specific client (the local install), just one step away from streaming the game.

People do, but it takes a long time to reverse engineer and build a sandbox. For MaNgOS, one of first WoW emulators, it took almost a decade to be in a state worth mentioning. I'm pretty sure even single player games will be developed with some kind of always-online-mandatory in the near future.

Plus they can take it down by legally asphyxiating them.

 

[memoryman3]

AAA companies are making huge bucks on pc even with piracy . Elden Ring? Cyberpunk? Baldurs gate 3? Kingdom Come Deliverance 2? Expedition 33? All pirated day 0.

These are all exceptions, and all the games had delayed or no GOG releases except for Cyberpunk. Denuvo kneecapped piracy sites and discouraged them for a long time.

 

[Bojji]

These are all exceptions, and all the games had delayed or no GOG releases except for Cyberpunk. Denuvo kneecapped piracy sites and discouraged them for a long time.

All the games launching on steam (and not GOG) are pirated day one if they don't have denuvo (and majority of games don't have it).

 

[BlackTron]

You're creating solutions too complicated for the problem. Like i said, instead of all of this, if they were that worried about piracy/mods, it'd be simpler to just make the game cloud-only.

They could meet halfway between local for input responsiveness and cloud for data.

 

[Guilty_AI]

These are all exceptions, and all the games had delayed or no GOG releases except for Cyberpunk. Denuvo kneecapped piracy sites and discouraged them for a long time.

None of these even ever had denuvo mate . No GOG release needed either, Steam drm is a day 0 crack.

Also, have some more "exceptions": Silksong, Hades 1&2, Balatro, Palworld, Granblue Fantasy Relink, Armored Core 6, Bannerlord, Forza Horizon 5, Factorio and so on...

 

[Guilty_AI]

They could meet halfway between local for input responsiveness and cloud for data.

The software monstrosity you're coming up with isn't a halfway solution. Its a massive engineering undertaking that creates tons of overhead with absolutely no other advantage than being a questionably effective anti-piracy solution, whereas cloud is already streamlined, is a perfect anti-piracy measure and can be used as a selling point.

 

[winjer]

Not incorrect. It has been established that piracy and the like will completely cannibalise game sales if made convenient. Microsoft gave us a great case study with Game Pass and the effect on game sales.

And that is the false premise.
We have already seen studies that show that piracy has no impact in videogame PC sales. Sometimes, it can even help sales.
We have already seen several major games being released with no DRM, or just something very basic and still perform exceptionally well on PC.
And of course, we have Lord GabeN wise words:

"We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem," he said. "If a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable."

Most people will pay for games, if the service is convenient and safe. And that is what Steam did and became the most successful store in PC gaming, by far.
People will pay for a quality service. And to avoid getting their PC infected with viruses. And to support the companies that make the games they love. And to have their own library of legitimate games.

 

[memoryman3]

The software monstrosity you're coming up with isn't a halfway solution. Its a massive engineering undertaking that creates tons of overhead with absolutely no other advantage than being a questionably effective anti-piracy solution, whereas cloud is already streamlined, is a perfect anti-piracy measure and can be used as a selling point.

The anti piracy measure is consoles, or Microsoft introuducing their own cross storefront kernel DRM solution (free with an Xbox PC release or paid otherwise)

 

[Guilty_AI]

The anti piracy measure is consoles, or Microsoft introuducing their own cross storefront kernel DRM solution (free with an Xbox PC release or paid otherwise)

The anti-piracy measure is a convenient delivery services and fair pricing

 

[KyoZz]

The anti piracy measure is consoles, or Microsoft introuducing their own cross storefront kernel DRM solution (free with an Xbox PC release or paid otherwise)

You clearly don't know shit or have been misinformed, most likely both.

 

[memoryman3]

All the games launching on steam (and not GOG) are pirated day one if they don't have denuvo (and majority of games don't have it).

Show me an AAA game not made by From Software or Sony that doesn't have strong anti-tamper DRM.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Show me an AAA game not made by From Software or Sony that doesn't have strong anti-tamper DRM.

I showed you 5 others already mate. Whats the next goalpost? "Show me an AAA game not made by From Software, Sony, CDPR, Warhorse, Microsoft, Larian studios and Cygames?"

You have been proved wrong, long before you even considered writing any comments here. Take the L and move on.

 

[BlackTron]

The software monstrosity you're coming up with isn't a halfway solution. Its a massive engineering undertaking that creates tons of overhead with absolutely no other advantage than being a questionably effective anti-piracy solution, whereas cloud is already streamlined, is a perfect anti-piracy measure and can be used as a selling point.

I would never assume that they would choose not to deploy a monstrosity.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I would never assume that they would choose not to deploy a monstrosity.

You know what, fair point

 

[Gp1]

Want to know what's the best DRM?

Y'know, there's this assumption that- What is Piracy- Piracy is about people wanting to steal stuff from you, right? That they don't want to pay any money and they wanna get your content.
But when you look at the fact that these people have $2,000 PCs,
and they're spending 50 US dollars or more on their internet connections.
Clearly, they're willing to spend money. So, from our point of view, what we saw more and more is that Piracy was a result of bad service on the part of game companies

People are happy to pay money if they're getting what they perceive as a great product delivered on their terms.
This is an example where a lot of the copy protection schemes go in exactly the wrong direction, they're actually negative service, right?
Something I don't know if this product- So as a customer, what I want is- I want my content on any device, at any point in time, with a lot of security, right?
I don't wanna have to worry when I buy a new PC, that I won't be able to play the game that I paid for.

17 years ago
The man deserves that yacht

 

[memoryman3]

I showed you 5 others already mate. Whats the next goalpost? "Show me an AAA game not made by From Software, Sony, CDPR, Warhorse, Microsoft, Larian studios and Cygames?"

You have been proved wrong, long before you even considered writing any comments here. Take the L and move on.

Larian and Warhorse did not release their games on GOG day 1 (remember Denuvo acts as a deterrent to piracy sites). Cygames release their products with significant online components so piracy doesn't make sense there. Microsoft's single player games aren't exactly lighting the charts on fire either.

 

[Cumulus]

DRM absolutely does impact customer buying habits. If faced with a cheaper deal, customers will absolutely take it.

See: Game Pass effect on full priced game sales.

Denuvo may have actually saved AAA gaming on PC.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Larian and Warhorse did not release their games on GOG day 1 (remember Denuvo acts as a deterrent to piracy sites).

BG3 did release on GOG day 1, and KCD2 had no denuvo nor any other drm even on steam and got cracked day 0. Why are you going in circles?

Cygames release their products with significant online components so piracy doesn't make sense there. Microsoft's single player games aren't exactly lighting the charts on fire either.

I only keep hearing more and more goalpost moving. It started with "no denuvo means canibalized sales and everyone moving to consoles with no pc releases". Now its either delusions thinking only GOG releases get pirated or that FH5 wasn't a massive sales success, or excuses like thinking pirates will suddenly decide to pay for a game for some specific x or y feature.

(Edit: btw, just found out pirated versions of GBF relink do support coop, so they aren't even missing anything)

 

[Puscifer]

Except this shit doesn't exist. Streaming assets still require caching data locally on disk, otherwise the whole process becomes highly inneficient.

The only realistic thing i can think of that would completely kill piracy is cloud gaming.

Diablo 3 would've been cracked years ago. Sure assets are there but there's clearly certain data that requires some kind of check to keep it going.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Diablo 3 would've been cracked years ago. Sure assets are there but there's clearly certain data that requires some kind of check to keep it going.

Diablo 3 uses normal server side authentication (always online). Less interest as well as blizzard cracking down piracy makes sure it doesn't get pirated.

 

[Bojji]

Show me an AAA game not made by From Software or Sony that doesn't have strong anti-tamper DRM.

Infamous picture on NG. Ignore HV crack games (red banner) and there are some games that had denuvo at some point, but most of them didn't:

 

[memoryman3]

Want to know what's the best DRM?







17 years ago
The man deserves that yacht

The best DRM is on Nintendo Switch 2.

You can share the games with your family easily across the same system.

Share games across multiple Switches and even accounts within your Family Group with the Virtual Game Card system.

Zero online authentication ever needed past the first install unlike Steam. You can play games offline for decades.

Zero need for mandatory patches - I can still play unpatched Mario Kart World with the stronger CPU.

Multiple accounts supported in split-screen multiplayer games.

DRM doesn't affect game launch speeds.

Game Key Cards don't use eShop's authentication backend, you download straight from Nintendo's servers.

This is the standard PC DRM needs to strive for.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The best DRM is on Nintendo Switch 2.

You can share the games with your family easily across the same system.

Share games across multiple Switches and even accounts within your Family Group with the Virtual Game Card system.

Zero online authentication ever needed past the first install unlike Steam. You can play games offline for decades.

Zero need for mandatory patches - I can still play unpatched Mario Kart World with the stronger CPU.

Multiple accounts supported in split-screen multiplayer games.

DRM doesn't affect game launch speeds.

Game Key Cards don't use eShop's authentication backend, you download straight from Nintendo's servers.

This is the standard PC DRM needs to strive for.

Oh, basic nintendo fanboy. Excuse me for trying to argue, that was stupid of me.

 

[Itchy Tickles]

Digital purchases especially are so lop sided against the customer it is a disgrace. We have little rights vs physical media and even then we are forced to be grateful to the people we BUY our shit from that it isn't a transaction, but we should treat it as a privilege.

The way this has always gone is that legit owners of games will just get fucked over again by DRMs as they try and combat pirates. Legit owners have to suffer for being honest because these shit companies method to battle pirates is to try and control, unfairly, proper owners of games, which just ends up pissing us off and creating more pirates or lower sales.

When I buy a game digitally, I am not involved in the fight of pirates vs DRM, yet the only ones being punished are those who buy it. To be clear, if pirates can cause these scumbags to lose money and even hurt their reputation, I am all for it, but I just dread what the next step will be for DRM considering they seem to have free reign legally.

 

[Gp1]

The best DRM is on Nintendo Switch 2.

You can share the games with your family easily across the same system.

Share games across multiple Switches and even accounts within your Family Group with the Virtual Game Card system.

Zero online authentication ever needed past the first install unlike Steam. You can play games offline for decades.

Zero need for mandatory patches - I can still play unpatched Mario Kart World with the stronger CPU.

Multiple accounts supported in split-screen multiplayer games.

DRM doesn't affect game launch speeds.

Game Key Cards don't use eShop's authentication backend, you download straight from Nintendo's servers.

This is the standard PC DRM needs to strive for.

Yeah, because Gabe Newell, first of his name, owner of one of the most healthy and pro consumer gaming ecosystem in history needs Nintendo...

the company that bets on proprietary cartridge against CD,
then proprietary minidisc,
then proprietary cartridge,
then proprietary cartridge AGAIN

on DRM

 

[Haint]

The best DRM is on Nintendo Switch 2.

You can share the games with your family easily across the same system.

Share games across multiple Switches and even accounts within your Family Group with the Virtual Game Card system.

Zero online authentication ever needed past the first install unlike Steam. You can play games offline for decades.

Zero need for mandatory patches - I can still play unpatched Mario Kart World with the stronger CPU.

Multiple accounts supported in split-screen multiplayer games.

DRM doesn't affect game launch speeds.

Game Key Cards don't use eShop's authentication backend, you download straight from Nintendo's servers.

This is the standard PC DRM needs to strive for.

Nintendo's family share system deactivates the games after 2 weeks and has to be shared and reactivated on the same WiFi network every time.

 

[dDoc]

Lets not forget the company that wants customers to pay to use the chat function.

 

[Gp1]

Nintendo's family share system deactivates the games after 2 weeks and has to be shared and reactivated on the same WiFi network every time.

Yet, you can share your entire library with anyone on Steam.

Bet our Nintendo friend never knew about this.

 

[Haint]

Yet, you can share your entire library with anyone on Steam.

Bet our Nintendo friend never knew about this.

To be fair Valve strait up allows developers to remove games from family share and opt out entirely, which some notable games do, and is even worse than most of the console systems. Valve is NOT the good guy consumer first advocate a lot of you guys hold it as.

 

[KyoZz]

To be fair Valve strait up allows developers to remove games from family share and opt out entirely

Yes, it's an option that is on by default. Why do you make it sound like it's a bad thing from Valve when they are the one enabling Family Sharing by default?

which some notable games do, and is even worse than most of the console systems.

There is a few games not on the Steam Family program but the vast majority of them have this enabled. I'd say 95% of games have this feature enabled.

Also what? Worse than on consoles? What do you mean by that?

Valve is NOT the good guy consumer first advocate a lot of you guys hold it as.

And they're not bad either, far from it. Just because I think Valve is probably the best company in the video game industry doesn't mean I necessarily think everything they've done – and will do – is good.

 

[Haint]

Yes, it's an option that is on by default. Why do you make it sound like it's a bad thing from Valve when they are the one enabling Family Sharing by default?


There is a few games not on the Steam Family program but the vast majority of them have this enabled. I'd say 95% of games have this feature enabled.

Also what? Worse than on consoles? What do you mean by that?


And they're not bad either, far from it. Just because I think Valve is probably the best company in the video game industry doesn't mean I necessarily think everything they've done – and will do – is good.

The consoles have more hoops to jump through, but they DO NOT allow games/publishers to opt out of their family share systems. Which is vastly preferred to Valve's approach of letting publishers turn off what should be core Steam functionality, and what should be a requirement for getting to publish on Steam.

In other words it's better to be inconvenienced than outright disallowed entirely. Publishers SHOULD NOT be able to turn off core Steam features like family share or forums, full stop. If you don't like it, don't publish on Steam. That is the stance your "Good Guy" Valve should take, but they don't, they cow tow to the money cause Gabe needs another billion dollar yacht.