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[Topher]

I knew about this before you did

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/appl...-mac-gaming-benchmarks.1650655/post-267802209

But obviously, I don't work directly at apple, still had to honor NDA.

 

[bluecowboys]

I know people will think I’m joking but I can see myself gaming on macs going forward.

I have a personal mac already for work. If Apple’s emulation works for DX12 it could work for other APIs as well.

This isn’t an overnight process but it is a great start nonetheless.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Gonna work great on those $1500 macbooks with 8gb of ram

 

[64bitmodels]

I know people will think I’m joking but I can see myself gaming on macs going forward.

I have a personal mac already for work. If Apple’s emulation works for DX12 it could work for other APIs as well.

This isn’t an overnight process but it is a great start nonetheless.

I agree, they're making great progress on it and i can see it slowly becoming a reality over the next 5 years.

Won't buy one but it would make me very happy to see more options for PC gaming

That being said i hate the 2 troll idiots out here acting like this is going to be come so ridiculously overpowered that PC gaming will not be able to keep up. That simply won't be the case. Every advancement Apple makes in their technology is simply another thing AMD/Intel/Nvidia can copy and optimize for PC

 

[bluecowboys]

I agree, they're making great progress on it and i can see it slowly becoming a reality over the next 5 years.

Won't buy one but it would make me very happy to see more options for PC gaming

That being said i hate the 2 troll idiots out here acting like this is going to be come so ridiculously overpowered that PC gaming will not be able to keep up. That simply won't be the case. Every advancement Apple makes in their technology is simply another thing AMD/Intel/Nvidia can copy and optimize for PC

True, but there is one advantage that Macs have over window PC.

It is a closed system so the developers can get more out of Apple computers. Apple mac computers might be the objectively best way to play games in the future.

All the perks of having window pc games ( biggest library ) and being open platform for mods. While being closed off hardware wise for developers to take advantage of and get most out of just like consoles.

 

[64bitmodels]

True, but there is one advantage that Macs have over window PC.

It is a closed system so the developers can get more out of Apple computers. Apple mac computers might be the objectively best way to play games in the future.

All the perks of having window pc games ( biggest library ) and being open platform for mods. While being closed off hardware wise for developers to take advantage of and get most out of just like consoles.

one of the biggest perks of PC gaming is upgradability and not many peopel are willing to sacrifice that for the potential of a closed system. Not to mention system still vary in software, drivers, and have differences with chipsets to still make optimization hard.

PC optimization will always be hard regardless of closed or open, you just have to do it. And besides.... Vulkan exists and is low level, well optimized and amazingly made to the point you'll get closed system optimization for an open platform.

 

[Spukc]

so a $3000+ laptop can play a game at ~60fps at nintendo switch resolutions

an rtx 4080 @ 1080p ultra gets ~370fps.
...and 1080p, the garbage resolution that it is, is ~40% higher than 1512x982.

yeah and severe stuttering

 

[bluecowboys]

one of the biggest perks of PC gaming is upgradability and not many peopel are willing to sacrifice that for the potential of a closed system. Not to mention system still vary in software, drivers, and have differences with chipsets to still make optimization hard.

PC optimization will always be hard regardless of closed or open, you just have to do it. And besides.... Vulkan exists and is low level, well optimized and amazingly made to the point you'll get closed system optimization for an open platform.

I don’t think upgrading will be a big deal in the future. Or at least for traditional AAA gaming.

There has been only a handful of games that took advantage of the new gaming consoles graphic wise. Most games are still cross gen. Going forward I believe this will continue to be a thing.

 

[bluecowboys]

yeah and severe stuttering

You are acting like emulation won’t improve.

Besides there isn’t that many good gaming laptops out there that won’t cost you over a thousand dollars.

 

[Sleepwalker]

True, but there is one advantage that Macs have over window PC.

It is a closed system so the developers can get more out of Apple computers. Apple mac computers might be the objectively best way to play games in the future.

All the perks of having window pc games ( biggest library ) and being open platform for mods. While being closed off hardware wise for developers to take advantage of and get most out of just like consoles.

Mac market share for PC hardware is around 7%

Windows market share for OS is over 70%. Developers are not gonna prioritize mac, not for a long time if ever with those numbers.

 

[bluecowboys]

Mac market share for PC hardware is around 7%

Windows market share for OS is over 70%. Developers are not gonna prioritize mac, not for a long time if ever with those numbers.

There are over a 100 million mac users and growing….

 

[LordOfChaos]

M1 Max

 

[Sleepwalker]

There are over a 100 million mac users and growing….

So? There are 1.5 billion windows users. Not every single mac user is going to game on it, not even the majority will. (Same as windows)


I dont even like windows but facts are facts lol

 

[bluecowboys]

So? There are 1.5 billion windows users. Not every single mac user is going to game on it, not even the majority will. (Same as windows)


I dont even like windows but facts are facts lol

And? You don’t need a majority just 25% will be enough. Also, a lot of the improvements will come automatically essentially thanks to Apple’s new tools and the community. Stay salty.

 

[M1chl]

I don't want to brag, but

 

[64bitmodels]

I don’t think upgrading will be a big deal in the future. Or at least for traditional AAA gaming.

There has been only a handful of games that took advantage of the new gaming consoles graphic wise. Most games are still cross gen. Going forward I believe this will continue to be a thing.

It's not just GPUs and CPUs. It's upgrading to faster ram, new storage going from HDD to SSD, being able to replace/repair broken parts, getting different cases for different needs, customizing your system to truly make it yours.
You can't do that in any of the current Macs and it's only gonna continue getting more restrictive. The open system approach is what has kept PC gaming alive and thriving over the past few decades

 

[Sleepwalker]

And? You don’t need a majority just 25% will be enough. Also, a lot of the improvements will come automatically essentially thanks to Apple’s new tools and the community. Stay salty.

Stay salty? Lmao you must be 12, no point in trying to have a normal discussion here.



Posting this from my macbook air btw

 

[bluecowboys]

It's not just GPUs and CPUs. It's upgrading to faster ram, new storage going from HDD to SSD, being able to replace/repair broken parts, getting different cases for different needs, all that jazz. You can't do that in any of the current Macs and it's only gonna continue getting more restrictive. The open system approach is what has kept PC gaming alive and thriving over the past few decades

Ps5 and Xbox series have those improvements as well yet developers aren’t taking advantage of it that much.

That is the reason why we have so many cross gen games.

 

[bluecowboys]

Stay salty? Lmao you must be 12, no point in trying to have a normal discussion here.



Posting this from my macbook air btw

Be careful, too much salt is bad for your cholesterol.

 

[64bitmodels]

Stay salty? Lmao you must be 12, no point in trying to have a normal discussion here.



Posting this from my macbook air btw

he is right about the 25% thing though. It doesn't need to be a majority just a sizeable portion. Game Developers are still considering and supporting Xbox despite them being the least popular of the big 3 because they still have a higher market share number than 0%.

 

[Sleepwalker]

he is right about the 25% thing though. It doesn't need to be a majority just a sizeable portion. Game Developers are still considering and supporting Xbox despite them being the least popular of the big 3 because they still have a higher market share number than 0%.

Yeah, that is a fair point. Just didn't feel like engaging with the dude anymore lol

 

[64bitmodels]

Ps5 and Xbox series have those improvements as well yet developers aren’t taking advantage of it that much.

But i was talking about upgradability. You can't upgrade a PS5 or Xbox Series X beyond storage.

The point that i'm making is that upgrading a system isn't just about power but it's about usability- these PCs aren't JUST used for gaming. They're used for many different tasks and so long as that's the case upgradability will always be a selling point for people. Even the Steam Deck lets you extensively redo the system to your liking.

 

[bluecowboys]

But i was talking about upgradability. You can't upgrade a PS5 or Xbox Series X beyond storage.

The point that i'm making is that upgrading a system isn't just about power but it's about usability- these PCs aren't JUST used for gaming. They're used for many different tasks and so long as that's the case upgradability will always be a selling point for people. Even the Steam Deck lets you extensively redo the system to your liking.

What is the point of upgrading if developers and publishers won’t take advantage of it?

I’m talking about AAA gaming btw.

 

[64bitmodels]

What is the point of upgrading if developers and publishers won’t take advantage of it?

I’m talking about AAA gaming btw.

if you're gonna specifically mention AAA, then we can easily say that publishers are taking advantage of it with projects like Cyberpunk Overdrive, Portal RTX and Quake RTX making their way along to PC as tech demos, not to mention RTX remix which will require major horsepower for older 9th gen games.

Cross gen seems to be slowing down quite a bit as many games are becoming 9th gen only such as FFXVI, Jedi Survivor, Dead Space Remake, Tekken 8, Spiderman 2, Starfield, and Forza Motorsport. These games are far too big to run on older gen systems and that's not even the most of it with GTA VI on the horizon.

So long as games like these and tools like RTX remix come out to make 9th gen rendering techniques common on older games there's gonna be plenty of people who want the newest, and greatest technology in their PCs.

.... looking back on this paragraph now, i sound a bit too much like ChatGPT, here

 

[Dr. Claus]

those claims were complete PR bulllshit by Apple. the speed comparison to a 3080ti were based on video editing and rendering performance, which the M2 has dedicated hardware for.

in real world performance in general applications it's like a 1050 or something

 

[phant0m]

Especially not at their crazy price points and closed systems. I can't stand Apple anymore. Its sad as my first computer was an Apple IIc, where I learned basic until getting a hand me down 8088, the apple ii had better graphics and games at the time, plus it was priced around 1k. Apple under Jobs and Wozniak was originally about computers for the masses. It morphed into what we have now with Cook making products for the "elite" or "Faithful" to their cult.
It was downhill for apple the moment it took out expansion slots.

I was gifted an intel mac mini (2012 era) for porting apps to ios. After a few years it wouldn't work with most applications as apple wouldn't allow system upgrades. Windows at least lasts 10 years or so for hardware and probably longer unofficially as you can still install windows xp, 98, 7 etc.. on a modern machine. I wound up daul booting into linux on it so it could have some use. Little sucker is sitting on my desk as a stand for my wireless phone charger.

So even when Apple does make machines for the masses (mac mini, ipod) they throttle them after a few years, forcing obsolescence. Its ridiculous and the faithful cult members will defend them. Sorry but I refuse to buy any apple product again. Maybe if Tim Cook gets the axe and they have a decent no totalitarian CEO who opens the platform for programmers and gamers and not the walled garden approach then I will give them another chance.

Bottom line, crazy prices, closed system = only for elites or cult members. The masses will ignore them and this will not be the gaming juggernaut ever.



(i just did the math for a mac mini, damn things are a rip off. They start at $599 which seems reasonable, but thats with 8gb ram and 256gb hd. To make it 16gb it adds $200. To make it 1tb ssd its +400. Thats now $1200. Crazy. You can get two sticks of ddr4 for $30-50, a 1tb drive can be found for 50-60 now. They charge $600 for that.... again F apple and the greedy snobby ceo. Apple died with Jobs. )

Oh yeah? Please try installing Windows 11 on a desktop from before 2018. No TPM chip, no install. Hardware is perfectly capable of running it though.

Got a Skylake CPU (6700K)? No Win11 for you.

I’m not trying to knock your criticism of Apple but don’t act like Microsoft is fucking sunshine & rainbows. At least Apple doesn’t put ads in the file browser.

 

[bluecowboys]

if you're gonna specifically mention AAA, then we can easily say that publishers are taking advantage of it with projects like Cyberpunk Overdrive, Portal RTX and Quake RTX making their way along to PC as tech demos, not to mention RTX remix which will require major horsepower for older 9th gen games.

Cross gen seems to be slowing down quite a bit as many games are becoming 9th gen only such as FFXVI, Jedi Survivor, Dead Space Remake, Tekken 8, Spiderman 2, Starfield, and Forza Motorsport. These games are far too big to run on older gen systems and that's not even the most of it with GTA VI on the horizon.

So long as games like these and tools like RTX remix come out to make 9th gen rendering techniques common on older games there's gonna be plenty of people who want the newest, and greatest technology in their PCs.

.... looking back on this paragraph now, i sound a bit too much like ChatGPT, here

Oh please, most of those games can run on previous consoles. Most of those games are current gen only to force us to buy new consoles.

For example, nothing about Spider-Man 2 is leap and bounds better looking than Spider-Man 1.

 

[CuNi]

That's cool but that's not what I said fam

That's exactly what you said.

The Mac Pro and the Mac Studio share the same M2 Ultra chip at the top, and by default for the Mac Pro.

Only the more expensive Mac Studio shares it, the $2k one does not, it only has the M2 Max, not the M2 Ultra.

2000 for the Mac Studio with M2 Max, which considering that includes the CPU, GPU, RAM, SSD, chassis, cooling, isn't too crazy. 4000 to get that M2 Ultra you mentioned, which is 3000 less than the Mac Pro you referenced for it on price.

Which yet again neither proves your point (you still can get a full PC with a 4090 for that money) nor does it have anything to do with my original comment which wasn't even directed at you
I don't know what you're even trying to prove here.

 

[LordOfChaos]

That's exactly what you said.



Only the more expensive Mac Studio shares it, the $2k one does not, it only has the M2 Max, not the M2 Ultra.


Which yet again neither proves your point (you still can get a full PC with a 4090 for that money) nor does it have anything to do with my original comment which wasn't even directed at you
I don't know what you're even trying to prove here.

What are you even talking about dude

You -

The best thing about your post is, that the guy with his 4090 probably still ended up spending less than the Apple user, seeing how a Mac Pro costs 6999$

Me -

Which is the same chip as you can get in the Mac Studio. You don't need the Mac Pro, you can't even add GPUs to it, unless you have specialized IO needs in audio production/networking or something.

M2 Max Studio costs 2000, M2 Ultra $4K.

Buy Mac Studio

Get a new Mac Studio with M2 Max or M2 Ultra from only $166.58 per month. Select a model or customise your own. Buy now at apple.com.

www.apple.com

Would I advise someone buy one for gaming? Hell no. Would it be nice to be able to game on the powerful GPU you've already spent money on for video editing/development/ML use etc? Yes.

I feel like we should be grown enough to not have to have this conversation every time, but I digress.

You -

Saying the M2 Max is the same chip as the M2 Ultra is only correct in Name.
The Ultra has 2x as many GPU-cores, which will most likely have a 60%+ performance difference.
You can buy a high-end PC for $4k.


And besides that, my comment was not even implying that I don't want anyone to be able to game on a Mac.
Did you even take a second to see who I was responding to, or why did you try to argue with me about something I never even said?
I'm all for Linux and Mac's getting finally more support when it comes to gaming. Those users have been neglected for way too long.

That's exactly what you said.

You mentioned the Mac Pro being 6999, I said there's absolutely no need to get the Pro as the Studio has the Ultra as well and the Mac Pro doesn't have GPU expansion anyways, it's 2K for the M2 Max and 4K for the M2 Ultra in the Studio, which is still 3000 dollars less than the Mac Pro you randomly went for. Then even after explaining that, you insisted that I was saying the M2 Max and Ultra are the same chip, which I never did, unless you just read language extremely poorly?

M2 Ultra is the same as M2 Ultra. No one said M2 Max is the same as Ultra, I mentioned both price points and options for the Studio. With the same M2 Ultra as the Mac Pro, it's still 3000 less, you just picked a product not remotely for this to pick on the price. Simple enough to comprende?

Only the more expensive Mac Studio shares it, the $2k one does not, it only has the M2 Max, not the M2 Ultra.

That would be how the words "at the top" work, and why I specified both the 2K and 4K prices, when even matching the Ultra with the Ultra is 3K less than the Mac Pro. 7000 - 3000 = 4000, meaning I was referring to the M2 Ultra one, see? You can insist someone somehow meant the M2 Max and Ultra are the same chip to try to get a win out of your misunderstanding of language all you want lol

 

[I Love Rock 'n' Roll]

Il dont get why pc gamers are so agressive here when mac gaming is a thing again (we have lots of consoles emulators and now this) and why are they so agressive on everything Apple does? They don’t care, so why? What’s so wrong with them?

I’m gonna test this on my M2!

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

if Apple enters the videogamez....PlayStation nor Valve shouldn't be the ones worried about.

 

[CuNi]

What are you even talking about dude

You -


Me -


You -

You mentioned the Mac Pro being 6999, I said there's absolutely no need to get the Pro as the Studio has the Ultra as well and the Mac Pro doesn't have GPU expansion anyways, it's 2K for the M2 Max and 4K for the M2 Ultra in the Studio, which is still 3000 dollars less than the Mac Pro you randomly went for. Then even after explaining that, you insisted that I was saying the M2 Max and Ultra are the same chip, which I never did, unless you just read language extremely poorly?

M2 Ultra is the same as M2 Ultra. No one said M2 Max is the same as Ultra, I mentioned both price points and options for the Studio. With the same M2 Ultra as the Mac Pro, it's still 3000 less, you just picked a product not remotely for this to pick on the price. Simple enough to comprende?




That would be how the words "at the top" work, and why I specified both the 2K and 4K prices, when even matching the Ultra with the Ultra is 3K less than the Mac Pro. 7000 - 3000 = 4000, meaning I was referring to the M2 Ultra one, see? You can insist someone somehow meant the M2 Max and Ultra are the same chip to try to get a win out of your misunderstanding of language all you want lol

You bring up the M2 Max as a counter to my randomly picked Mac Pro, which has not the same chip. Why do you keep even bringing it up?
My statement was, as you so nicely quoted, "The PC gamer spends lass". It's true for the 7k Mac Pro, and it is still true for the 3k Mac Studio with the M2 Ultra chip.
I don't know which part of "The PC gamer still spends less" you struggle with, or how this banter between me and another poster triggered you so deeply that you need to come here to unpack the whole Apple product line just to prove that gaming on Apple is still more expensive?

 

[Laieon]

Games should just ditch Direct X and go elsewhere.

Hear me out, ditch Direct X...

and go Direct Y.

 

[LordOfChaos]

You bring up the M2 Max as a counter to my randomly picked Mac Pro, which has not the same chip. Why do you keep even bringing it up?
My statement was, as you so nicely quoted, "The PC gamer spends lass". It's true for the 7k Mac Pro, and it is still true for the 3k Mac Studio with the M2 Ultra chip.
I don't know which part of "The PC gamer still spends less" you struggle with, or how this banter between me and another poster triggered you so deeply that you need to come here to unpack the whole Apple product line just to prove that gaming on Apple is still more expensive?

Sweet mother of god dude

I said the 4000 dollar M2 Ultra Mac Studio has the same chip as the 7000 dollar Mac Pro you picked on. 3000 less than 7000 is 4000, yes? Not 2000. There's also a 2000 dollar one with M2 Max, which is obviously not the same. This seems to have confused you. No one said M2 Max and M2 Ultra are the same chip, because that's fucking stupid. I'm not struggling with the PC gamer spends less, you're moving the goalposts as you obviously just read poorly and don't want to say so. I also said the TOP Mac Studio. You ignored the words and substituted your own by saying I said Max and Ultra were the same chip.

I'm free to wade in whenever I want when someone say something stupid. You also won't find me saying PC gaming isn't cheaper and a better performance per dollar anywhere, and yes it's frustrating when people try to misinterpret what you said to win dumb statements they made up in their minds.

 

[Wildebeest]

Why do they use this metal api instead of vulkan? Is it just so they can charge 1000 dollars for a special metal compatible cable?

 

[LordOfChaos]

Why do they use this metal api instead of vulkan? Is it just so they can charge 1000 dollars for a special metal compatible cable?

It was out before Vulkan on iOS and has that developer base, but as for why they don't just add Vulkan it's probably mostly just full control over their own API and hardware

 

[01011001]

Oh yeah? Please try installing Windows 11 on a desktop from before 2018. No TPM chip, no install. Hardware is perfectly capable of running it though.

Got a Skylake CPU (6700K)? No Win11 for you.

I’m not trying to knock your criticism of Apple but don’t act like Microsoft is fucking sunshine & rainbows. At least Apple doesn’t put ads in the file browser.

you can easily install Windows 11 on "non compatible" PCs by using some tricks.

it's not hard, there are step by step tutorials online.

 

[Bry0]

Why do they use this metal api instead of vulkan? Is it just so they can charge 1000 dollars for a special metal compatible cable?

Apple love their proprietary apis.
This is really cool and I hope it facilitates more max ports. I don’t think these will ever be a sufficient replacement for a gaming focused pc but it’s about time we get some mac ports on apple silicon. I run the intel version of POE on my M1 Pro MacBook and it’s great in a pinch when I’m away from home and bored on a plane or whatever.