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Dutch ex-player Van Basten suspended from FIFA 20 after "sieg heil" comment on live TV
Ascend
Member
To all the Dutch getting all defensive here over the whole Sinterklaas / Black Pete issue.... I have a couple of things to share, and then you can come again and tell me it's not racist;
1) This article;
www.rtlnieuws.nl
For the ones that don't understand Dutch, use Google Translate, but the short version is that there were multiple incidents of darker skinned players being insulted as "zwarte piet" or black pete during matches.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
2) The Dutch Prime minister Mark Rutte, openly saying... Well, listen for yourself, the last 20 seconds of the video;
Yeah... The islands in the Caribbean that the Dutch colonized in the past and had black slaves working there, the prime Minister can openly say on an international summit, that his "friends" on these islands are happy to celebrate this holiday because they don't have to paint their faces and he would have a lot of clean-up to do because he has too... What happened afterwards? Nothing. No outrage, no backlash. Nothing.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
3) People who are against the holiday didn't look into the history and origin...? Uh... Just... Watch this. It also includes point 2 as one of the examples.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
The Dutch culture of being blunt has a weakness, and that is, that the need for introspection rarely arises in them, simply because they have too often gotten away with that bluntness. And this is one of those cases, where they need to lower their heads and admit they are wrong. It will take a while though.
1) This article;
Donkere voetballer uitgescholden voor 'Zwarte Piet', wedstrijd stilgelegd
Juist in het weekend waarin alle voetbalclubs protesteren tegen racisme waren er twee incidenten bij amateurclubs. In Emmen werd een wedstrijd stilgelegd nadat een donkere speler vanaf de tribune 'Zwarte Piet' werd genoemd, en in Utrecht werd een wedstrijd zelfs helemaal gestaakt na een...
For the ones that don't understand Dutch, use Google Translate, but the short version is that there were multiple incidents of darker skinned players being insulted as "zwarte piet" or black pete during matches.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
2) The Dutch Prime minister Mark Rutte, openly saying... Well, listen for yourself, the last 20 seconds of the video;
Yeah... The islands in the Caribbean that the Dutch colonized in the past and had black slaves working there, the prime Minister can openly say on an international summit, that his "friends" on these islands are happy to celebrate this holiday because they don't have to paint their faces and he would have a lot of clean-up to do because he has too... What happened afterwards? Nothing. No outrage, no backlash. Nothing.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
3) People who are against the holiday didn't look into the history and origin...? Uh... Just... Watch this. It also includes point 2 as one of the examples.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
The Dutch culture of being blunt has a weakness, and that is, that the need for introspection rarely arises in them, simply because they have too often gotten away with that bluntness. And this is one of those cases, where they need to lower their heads and admit they are wrong. It will take a while though.
Katsura
Member
To all the Dutch getting all defensive here over the whole Sinterklaas / Black Pete issue.... I have a couple of things to share, and then you can come again and tell me it's not racist;
1) This article;
Donkere voetballer uitgescholden voor 'Zwarte Piet', wedstrijd stilgelegd
Juist in het weekend waarin alle voetbalclubs protesteren tegen racisme waren er twee incidenten bij amateurclubs. In Emmen werd een wedstrijd stilgelegd nadat een donkere speler vanaf de tribune 'Zwarte Piet' werd genoemd, en in Utrecht werd een wedstrijd zelfs helemaal gestaakt na een...
For the ones that don't understand Dutch, use Google Translate, but the short version is that there were multiple incidents of darker skinned players being insulted as "zwarte piet" or black pete during matches.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
2) The Dutch Prime minister Mark Rutte, openly saying... Well, listen for yourself, the last 20 seconds of the video;
Yeah... The islands in the Caribbean that the Dutch colonized in the past and had black slaves working there, the prime Minister can openly say on an international summit, that his "friends" on these islands are happy to celebrate this holiday because they don't have to paint their faces and he would have a lot of clean-up to do because he has too... What happened afterwards? Nothing. No outrage, no backlash. Nothing.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
3) People who are against the holiday didn't look into the history and origin...? Uh... Just... Watch this. It also includes point 2 as one of the examples.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
The Dutch culture of being blunt has a weakness, and that is, that the need for introspection rarely arises in them, simply because they have too often gotten away with that bluntness. And this is one of those cases, where they need to lower their heads and admit they are wrong. It will take a while though.
Did you really just link a Vox video to support your point?
Ascend
Member
Yes. So what? Think the video is wrong? Prove it.
This is also quite a cheap way to use a brand to dismiss the other two points presented.
Katsura
Member
I don't have to prove them wrong. They've done that themselves on many occasions. Not only that, but they are notoriously and demonstrably extreme regressive leftist who promotes socialism. Furthermore, why would you think it reasonable for people to sit through several videos just to get an idea of what your argument is? If you can't even be bothered articulating it using your own words, you cannot expect people to take it seriously
Psykodad
Banned
To all the Dutch getting all defensive here over the whole Sinterklaas / Black Pete issue.... I have a couple of things to share, and then you can come again and tell me it's not racist;
1) This article;
Donkere voetballer uitgescholden voor 'Zwarte Piet', wedstrijd stilgelegd
Juist in het weekend waarin alle voetbalclubs protesteren tegen racisme waren er twee incidenten bij amateurclubs. In Emmen werd een wedstrijd stilgelegd nadat een donkere speler vanaf de tribune 'Zwarte Piet' werd genoemd, en in Utrecht werd een wedstrijd zelfs helemaal gestaakt na een...
For the ones that don't understand Dutch, use Google Translate, but the short version is that there were multiple incidents of darker skinned players being insulted as "zwarte piet" or black pete during matches.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
2) The Dutch Prime minister Mark Rutte, openly saying... Well, listen for yourself, the last 20 seconds of the video;
Yeah... The islands in the Caribbean that the Dutch colonized in the past and had black slaves working there, the prime Minister can openly say on an international summit, that his "friends" on these islands are happy to celebrate this holiday because they don't have to paint their faces and he would have a lot of clean-up to do because he has too... What happened afterwards? Nothing. No outrage, no backlash. Nothing.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
3) People who are against the holiday didn't look into the history and origin...? Uh... Just... Watch this. It also includes point 2 as one of the examples.
Nope. Not racist. At all.
The Dutch culture of being blunt has a weakness, and that is, that the need for introspection rarely arises in them, simply because they have too often gotten away with that bluntness. And this is one of those cases, where they need to lower their heads and admit they are wrong. It will take a while though.
1) What happened during that football match is indeed an act of racism, but it is a situation where racist hooligans use the Black Pete situation as an excuse to act racist.
It is in no way proof that the Sinterklaas celebration is racist.
2) Rutte is a politician and a suck-up that wants to keep good international relations, so obviously he is gonna take a politically correct stance.
Not only that, the "friends" he is referring to are black people who paint their face black too in order to play Black Face.
The even have some black people painting their face white to play Sinterklaas.
3) Posting a video of a random American youtuber who did "research" under the assumption that Sinterklaas is a racist festivity?
Really?
Why not address the fact that Black Pete represents the child slaves that were freed from slavery by Saint Nicholas?
If anything, Black Pete is a symbol against racism and slavery.
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Ascend
Member
Oh so if someone is wrong on certain occasions they are wrong on everything?
Ok? I, do not know that, or at least I didn't until you said it. That being said, I don't immediately dismiss things because they are leftist or right-wing or whatever. I look at everything based on their own merits. Example? Life Is Strange 2 is being seen as this leftist propaganda game, and although I recognize certain left wing elements in it, even the push of LGBT onto children which I am fiercely against, I can still say that overall it was a good game. Things are not black/white.
The second one is two minutes long, and I even said to watch the last 20 seconds. If someone is unwilling to watch 20 seconds, how can I expect that person to actually read a wall of text? Videos are generally more forthcoming in terms of information per second. The first two points are already a good reference of what my argument is. The 3rd longer video is referencing history, if someone is interested in watching it.
Sounds like another excuse for easy dismissal. I'll say the same thing again. If someone is not willing to watch 20 seconds of a video, I really cannot expect much from them at all in a discussion. Then it becomes all about irrelevant nonsense, like we're discussing right now.
It doesn't prove that the holiday itself is racist, but it does prove that it gives incentive for racist actions, which is exactly what the whole issue is about.
There was nothing politically correct in that stance of his, at least, not from the perspective of anyone that is not Dutch. It might be for the Dutch themselves, because, well, reasons. But to this day, that little phrase of his is causing more contempt in non-white communities than practically any other video. Even Dutch stand-up comedians bring it up in their shows (1:08 onwards);
As for the "friends" he mentions, yes, they do paint their faces, but he specifically said the black people on these islands didn't have to. And that is the racist part, but whatever.
Guess you didn't watch much of it, considering he mentions quite early in the video that he actually grew up in Belgium and also celebrated this when he was a kid. Not unexpected though.
Oh I know this. I even have a video to support this point, although it's in dutch;
The issue is that whatever the original intent, it is no longer working out that way. Black Pete that used to ride high on a horse in the original story to represent equality between whites and blacks has been reduced to practically a circus clown, doing tricks and stuff. Non-white people are repetitively called "zwarte piet" in public and obviously not as a compliment.
There are issues here, and they need addressing. Trying to force the holiday to remain exactly the same is not going to work. Trying to get rid of the holiday completely is also not going to work. A middle ground must be found. And obviously the more immigrants get into the Netherlands, the larger the issue is going to get.
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Psykodad
Banned
Okay, so that Vox guy grew up in Belgium, doesn't change a single thing about the fact that Sinterklaas isn't a racist festivity.
You even admit yourself that Black Pete was a symbol against racism.
The reason it doesn't work is because people need to get over it.
At some point, those who act victimized actually become the instigators, which is what happened with the whole Black Pete situation.
Don't like it? Emigrate or don't celebrate it.
Edit:
And what you call "reduced to a circus clown" is something kids like.
It's the playfull side of Black Pete and you should see how proud all the kids (black and white) are when they receive their Pete-diploma after completing the Pete-courses at primary school.
It's a childrens celebration, they don't see racism at all.
It's two groups of vocal adult minorities that create drama nowadays.
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Katsura
Member
No but if they are consistently wrong and show a lack of understanding of the subjects they write about, it does speak to their overall competence
True, things are not black and white but in this case we're talking about whether or not a racist joke is ok. With that in mind, i don't think a company who frequently advocates for discrimination in order to advance black people, have no issue with racism against white people and who are generally consumed with identity politics to have anything worthwhile to add to the subject. These are people who believe anything not explicitly in favour of people of color, is white supremacism
Fair point. I guess i'm old school in that i prefer people to articulate their views on their own. Not only does it make it more interesting but it also shows a good understanding of the subject matter
I think it's a valid reason. If someone can't articulate their own argument then i am not convinced they actually understand it
I would much rather hear your opinion on this than that of Vox
Kenpachii
Member
Black pete is black because otherwise kids see its there neighbor that is dressed up as him. It's a community fest with locals that looks like christmas in some way. Black pets are elfs, they are magical in that way and completely removed from reality because of it.
Then u also got the word "black pete" and not pete. Which would already explain that indeed he's black.
Black people also by the way smink themselves even more black, while others don't. Its a big festival throughout dutch colonies even.
Oh look at all those racist black people having fun, do they not realize how racist they are, they should paint there faces white or else it will trigger actually liberal racists.
Sinterklaas isn't a single identity, its a identity of what u make out of it and what people learned about it with there encounters. Its in general a old chill looking guy like a grandpa that doesn't say much, but with a twist of pure terror of this fucker that he would put me in a bag and take me away from my family to be punish for forever ( u could call it hell ) if he decided i was a bad kid. I sure as hell aligned myself up with the other kids to sing and hope shit ended well for me at the end of the day.
The base story is simple, dude comes somewhere out of spain is white, has a white horse and has "black" petes that bring presents towards u if you where a good kid and festival starts. That's it.
The petes are what the kids like, because they give you stuff and are friendly and actually the smart ones. *yes sint is a senile old guy that barely knows he exists" So kids and people that grow up with the culture would never see petes as bad even remotely. Unless parents told them those people would be the ones culling them if they where bad which some parents actually did. ( again there own interpretation of stuff )
Then about its origin, everybody has its own interpretation of it much like a religion, however black pete is black by the fact its called black pete. There isn't much to interpete on it. What rutte said is nothing weird even remotely. He also celebrates it in its own way and has its own rules on it. His opinion does not reflect that of mine or anybody else he just explains how he experiences it.
Now this whole 10 people that demonstrate against it, are all people that have huge lists of activism against everything really and lawsuits in order to get money out of it. They found a new cash cow because media likes to stir shit up for profit. U probably know that by now with your own media.
For example the demonstration in friesland had 9 people in it, with 45 television camera people. LOL. on a population of 17 million.
However a lot of people in the netherlands never liked the tradition and actually actively go against it. because its basically sinterklaas or the christmas man ( its a hidden competition ), nobody really celebrates both with there kids because the festivals are practically the same on many levels. It's even so bad we have people that actively hate sinterklaas and do whatever they can to kick it out as fast as possible to push christmas forwards.
It's not that hard to find sinterklaas haters because of that or opinions that always flows your own boat on that matter which makes that vox video idiotic to say the least.
Even while the majority ( far the majority of the netherlands adores it ).
So honestly your whole, oh look what x person said about y person or what this guy said over him doesn't relate well with people that celebrate it because everybody has a opinion on the matter when it comes to sinterklaas. Get in line.
The only racisme that sinterklaas brings forwards is liberals trying to explain how pete can be every color besides black. Because black is bad guys lol. racist much.
Also u projecting US/UK culture on netherlands doesn't work. I am offended by anybody that gets in trouble in the US for painting there face black and it doesn't matter how you turn it, anybody that thinks painting your face black is racist is actually a filthy fucking racist themselves.. The same goes for anybody that opposes black pete.. See how that goes.
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D-Dude
Member
Well, tomorrow is "pakjesavond" it's like gifts and food in the evening. Children put there shoe out and belief Black Piet will put some gifts and candy in it. In turn they leave a carrot, and some drawings in there shoes. But I haven't heard any whining this year in my city.. It is to quiet.
Ascend
Member
I do not see how any black people became instigators in the black pete situation. Care to elaborate?
As mentioned earlier... That the black pete in the writings of Schenkman were intended as a symbol against racism, it doesn't mean that the holiday itself is, and it definitely does not mean that the subconscious effect it has on people is. This reminds me of the Stanford Prison experiment. It was never intended to turn out like it did, but the concept and environment enabled atrocious effects and horrible behavior in this fake scenario. This holiday is not different.
I don't disagree with this... Generally, if there is a party that you dislike or don't agree with, the sensible thing to do is to simply not attend. Things get a bit blurry when it involves countries and cultures though. Because when things are nationalized, it's almost impossible to escape from it.
As for emigrating, I don't think many would stay if the racism really is strong enough. That doesn't mean that it's not a problem though. To take an extreme example... All women won't suddenly leave a country because a handful of women were raped. That doesn't mean that rape is not a problem. And telling them to leave the country so they don't get raped is definitely not ok either.
Why the are the Petes and not Sinterklaas then? If it's about being playful, they could all be, right?
Not sure if I agree on children not seeing racism. I think it's almost a guarantee that a 6-10 year old white kid can see a brownish-skinned class mate and that he associates that kid with black pete.
And even if they don't see it, therein lies the biggest danger.
Then what is the issue to make them a bunch of colors rather than specifically black?
At bold part... You don't seem to get the difference between the holiday itself and the racist association that comes with it. Do you think that the comment that the Prime Minister Rutte made, that blacks in the dutch colonies are happy because they don't have to paint their faces during the holiday, is not racist? (note: it's irrelevant whether they really do or not)Then u also got the word "black pete" and not pete. Which would already explain that indeed he's black.
Black people also by the way smink themselves even more black, while others don't. Its a big festival throughout dutch colonies even.
Oh look at all those racist black people having fun, do they not realize how racist they are against themselves fucking lol.
I don't consider threats of kidnapping healthy nor something to celebrate, especially in terms of children, even if it's fake. But that's another topic for another thread.
WOW.... Ok then... I guess this conversation is over.
At last line... Yeah. It doesn't.
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Psykodad
Banned
It's pretty straight forward. A couple of colored people felt discriminated by a tradition that does not celebrate slavery in any way.
Those people then started demanding changes or flatout banning the tradition, just because their feelings got hurt.
Obviously, something like that is going to get a reaction.
What proof is there to backup this claim?
Honestly curious.
Thing is, where do you draw the line?
Santa Clause and his elves directly originate from Sinterklaas and his Petes. Do we ban them too? Because ultimately they're exactly the same and can be considered racism is disguise.
If you just don't celebrate it, you've made your point.
As someone from Moluccan origin, I will never celebrate Koningsdag until there is an official apology from either the Dutch government or the Royal family for the way they treated our grandfathers who were soldiers in the KNIL.
It's that easy, don't celebrate and move on. There are far more important things in life.
Racism definitely is a problem. I'm not white, I've encountered racism and discrimination my entire life. But I don't act like a victim and whine about every single thing. I just live my life and dont give a damn.
And Sinterklaas definitely isn't racist unless your deadset on seeing it that way.
Because Sinterklaas is a very old man? Pretty obvious.
Ofcourse they can. I also have a white cousin who was talking trash about colored people until my aunt and uncle told him me and my sister were colored too. He was dumbfounded because he had never seen it like that.
Racism is a social construct that is being taught. But it isn't being taught by the Sinterklaas tradition unless your environment tells you that you should feel discriminated against.
Edit:
Anyway, never intended to have Black Pete discussion on a gaming forum in a thread about how someone got suspended from a football game over a joke.
So let's just agree to disagree.
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VanEs
Member
The original intent shows that Black Pete is grounded in anti-racism, anti-slavery and anti-prejudice. You can't just change its original intent in order to make it easier for (far left) activists to smear "Sinterklaas". There is also nothing in the (~)150 years of Sinterklaas celebrations since that suggests any form of ridicule or racist intent with Black Pete or against black people in general. Yeah, sure there's the occasional asshole or football hooligans making a shitty remark, but people like that always want to throw insults of any kind towards people if they know that will hurt them. That's hardly proof of how a whole nation thinks of it's treasured characters or minorities in general.
You also talk about how Black Pete has been reduced to a circus clown. Black Pete's attitude and demeanor changed over time because the 19th century was a hard fucking century, and the attitudes of those days were diminishing in the 20th century. Back in the 19th century children at (very) young ages were already working in factories or sweeping chimneys all day long. People were fucking poor and life was tough, often brutal. So naturally Saint Nicholas and Black Pete reflected those harsh conditions (If you're good you get candy and presents, if you were naughty and bad you get a beating). In the 20th century when life improved massively, a solid middle class developed and a welfare system was put in place those old mentalities were discarded, and Saint Nicholas and Black Pete both became a lot more mellow to reflect those changes. Nowadays they're comparable with Sesame Street characters. It's not clownish as in ridiculing a person, it's entertainment geared towards young children.
The issue is that the whole discussion that already bled dry 6 fucking years ago is being hijacked and necromanced every year by (mostly white) left wing activists/students and a pc media salivating for sensationalist reporting. So now they have a great "middle ground solution" in "roetveegpieten" that solves nothing, pleases no one, and increases polarization. All that because 3% of the Netherlands is butthurt thanks to government subsidized activists who congregate with such wonderful groups like Antifa and the New Black Panthers. Lovely.
Oh yeah ... Marco van Basten being removed from Fifa 20 was the topic right? My bad
Remove one of the best football players to ever grace the game because of some inappropriate and clumsy remark, but no problem making a game using the name of an organisation that takes bribes 24/7 and lets hundreds (thousands?) die as modern immigrant slaves building stadiums for Qatar, a country responsible for Fifa's latest and greatest bribe that gave them the next World Cup's hosting rights.
Look at them priorities. Cunts.
Ascend
Member
Yeah... Right... Except right here in the comments, people confirming that they literally see no difference between a black person and Black Pete, considering the statement that "Black people have a choice white people don't because they are white." This, in support of the Prime Minister Rutte, that claimed that black people are happy to celebrate this holiday because they don't have to paint their faces and he has to go an extra mile to clean to paint of his face, i.e. pretending he's at an actual disadvantage compared to black people in this tradition. I have seen zero Dutch people admit that this is a condescending, let alone racist statement. And exactly therein lies the problem. Not that you will admit that though.
Whatever the original intent of a character or symbol, as soon as it is being used as something else, in this case racism, its meaning changes, because its use changes. Just like feminism basically changed from women's rights to man-hating, as an example.
Not that we can obviously get the Dutch to understand this. They are extremely defensive regarding their tradition, because, what else do they really have culturally..? No wonder you got so many likes from your countrymen, because, ultimately, there is zero compassion or understanding for the other side, because it is not in your interest.
And what is the issue with making it even more mellow?
And if it's the government subsidizing the polarization, why are you getting mad at the protesters and not the subsidizers?
Or maybe it was tied to slavery because of racist remarks thrown at them, in light of this tradition.
Ah yes. When people start asking for proof for common sense, it's a sign of immediate dismissal, no matter what is provided. The proof is everywhere. Let me put it like this.
If there was no Sinterklaas and no Zwarte Piet, would black people regularly be called zwarte piet in public as a derogatory term? The answer is obviously no. That does not mean that the holiday itself is racist, but that it is causing an incentive to use it in a racist manner. Which is what I've repetitively explained but you don't seem to get.
There is no clear sign in the Santa Clause tradition that it has anything to do with racism. Slavery, maybe, but not racism. It has been softened up to the point that people find it acceptable.
That being said, not knowing where to draw the line does not mean things should continue as they are. That's like asking who will pick the cotton if we end slavery. The important point is that slavery should end, just like right now, racism should end, and anything that incentivizes to racist behavior, whether its intention or not, whether deliberate or not, should be adapted, to limit and preferably eliminate this incentive.
It's kind of a weak point though, isn't it? No one misses your presence. You probably already know that apology is never going to come, unless some loud voices are heard, and the sad part is, that only the extremists are heard in almost every case.
I've said multiple times that the holiday itself is not the issue. No one is celebrating slavery or racism with it. However, it is used as a way to slander black people on the side. To put it in another way... New Year. What is the point of New year? To celebrate a 'restart' of the calendar year, right? It's not to celebrate fireworks, but, fireworks are definitely used constantly. The argument that the new year is not to celebrate fireworks does not somehow mean that fireworks are not being used. The same applies here. The argument that Sinterklaas is not to celebrate slavery is racism does not mean that it doesn't increase discrimination or conflicts/attacks against blacks.
Get it now?
I thought this was a child's holiday and all are characters closer to Sesame Street... So... Why the restraint for malleability?
And where do you think that came from?
I find it quite interesting, that you just said your cousin was basically displaying racist tendencies and was corrected, but somehow it's the blacks that are playing the victim because there is no racism over there because of Sinterklaas apparently...
Same question as above... Where do you think that idea of your white cousin came from? It certainly did not come from blacks feeling discriminated. Whether it came from Sinterklaas or not, it is a catalyst that boosts it, like it or not.
It is still relevant imo. Why? Because "Sieg Heil" is related to racism against Jews. And the topic of Sinterklaas is directly related to racism in general, and considering the blunt joke of a Dutch person in this case, makes it all sort of interconnected. Especially because it tackles directly into the controversial topic of Covert Racism, which is what we're actually talking about here.
Katsura
Member
So your argument boils down to 'because it can be used for racism we should change it'? That's crazy. Here is another, more rational, perspective - It's about the intent. Did Van Basten intend it as racism? That's really all that matters
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Katsura
Member
As i understand it, it was a hot mic situation
Psykodad
Banned
Reaching.
And why is that? Because there are some isolated cases where it might have happened?
Don't act like it's something that happens structurally in Dutch culture.
I wonder if you're even Dutch, because you have a very flawed view on the entire tradition and culture around Sinterklaas.
Also, I definitely don't need you to tell me about racism in the Netherlands.
Perfectly fine and I don't disagree.
But again, Sinterklaas =/= racism.
Idc if nobody misses my presence, I'm not one of those snowflakes.
Which is entirely the point.
I got what you were saying all this time. So, no idea how you came to such a dumb analogy as fireworks.
Your point of view is really twisted. Grow a pair.
Are you dumb or what?
You actually have no clue what the Sinterklaas tradition is, do you?
Please, do explain to me why my cousin didn't realize I wasn't white for 20 years.
Where did I deny the existence of racism in the Netherlands?
And where is your proof that Sinterklaas played part in my cousins racist tendencies?
Those remarks he made didn't even have any relation to Sinterklaas, whatsoever.
Actually, this topic is about the suspension of Van Basten from Fifa and I didnt intend to get into a political discussion on a gaming forum, which is why I asked you to just agree to disagree.
So, don't bother replying, except for that explanation about my cousin as you seem to know him personally.
nikolino840
Member
I'm italian and there's some fascist's mottos and i think if someone Say some of this fascists phrases during an interview there Will be outrages too, becouse most of this phrases are about strenght and winning an maybe someone can think to use them for a sport match
By the way,the only Who use them are Mussolini's fans
strange headache
Banned
That is a fallacious argument. Are forks murder weapons because people can use them to stab and kill others? Of course not!
Saint Nicholas is a festivity that is celebrated across almost all of Europe. It dates back to the frikkin' Roman Empire and predates American slavery by about 1.500 years. It has nothing to do with "blackface" and racism. This is merely the case of an americanized view trying to apply its cultural sensitivities and history onto a tradition that is completely foreign to them.
The fact that a minority of racist idiots abuse this tradition to express their racist views is not the fault of the festivity itself, but solely of the fools misusing the tradition of Saint Nicholas. Racists think in racist terms, nothing is ever going to change that and certainly not pointing fingers at a tradition that has nothing to do with it.
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I assume u are not dutch. we have no culture. no heritage no nothing. i get the idea u think we are inferior.... thats ... racist.
Ascend
Member
Not the point.
Is it wrong to kill people with forks? YES.
Should people that kill others with forks be called out? YES.
Should we try to avoid encouraging killings with forks? YES.
All that is relevant, even if forks are not murder weapons, which again, has been my point the whole time, but, you are either unwilling or incapable of understanding that.
I'll simply leave this here, so you can just dismiss the experience of a black kid under 10 years. He first thought it was a holiday for everyone and ultimately was ridiculed for being black.
Black Pete tradition ‘Dutch racism in full display’
Protesters have rallied against the Dutch blackface tradition, but many still refuse to see how it is deeply offensive.
That's how racism works. The ones that are the victims are ignored by the excuse that it's a small minority. But if it was a minority of something else, like rape, suddenly it is important enough.
I guess white children calling black children zwarte piet because of the tradition has nothing to do with it... And yes, it has been going for quite a while;
Zwarte Piet ter discussie stellen leverde ook 50 jaar geleden al bedreigingen op
De discussie rondom de kleur van Piet is niet van de laatste jaren, ook vorige eeuw werd er al veel over gesproken. "Mijn moeder zag in die tijd al dat de figuur Zwarte Piet racistisch was en ze vond dat ze daar iets aan moest doen."
eenvandaag.avrotros.nl
I am part Dutch, which is why I understand it and can read it. But really, what does the Dutch culture really have? Sinterklaas, King's Day aaaaand.... What else? Red Light district and weed? If there are more, you could actually tell us and enlighten us, rather than immediately trying to call someone a racist. Not having many things is not a bad thing, that, in itself, is actually part of the culture. More cultural things is not somehow superior or inferior. But obviously, things must be made personal when there are no counter-arguments regarding the topic itself.
It's hilariously ironic how y'all are unconsciously proving the points with your replies though...
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Katsura
Member
He is actually using your logic here. If it seems illogical to you, that's because it is. It illustrates perfectly why your logic is flawed. We should demand forks be changed because some people use them for terrible things!
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Ascend
Member
And that is not a viable solution because...?
Take guns. Some people like shooting, or like to train in shooting, without actually killing people. So, they make water guns, airsoft guns, water guns... Why would you be against that unless you actually want to justify killing people...?
Katsura
Member
Because it's impossible to change every common item in the world in order to prevent them being used as weapons? Because people can still murder using their hands? Because, and this is the most important one, it's all about intent. Just like with the joke that is the subject of this thread. Whether someone gets offended doesn't matter. That's just people who can't control their emotions. What matters is the intend behind it
If you change an event in order to 'prevent racism' do you really think it will make a difference? Have you actually thought this through? Of course it wont change a thing. People will just find new ways to do what they always do. Stop trying to destroy traditions and culture because a few snowflakes are triggered by every fucking thing
Also, the loaded question doesn't exactly help convince me your logic isn't severely flawed
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strange headache
Banned
That's exactly the point. You don't go around blaming forks for being used as weapons, you blame the perpetrators.
That's an inductive fallacy. You've got one single data point and make from that the faulty generalization that Black Pete is making people racist. Some people are idiots, and some of them are racist, the black kid had just the misfortune of running into them.
We celebrate Saint Nicholas in my county and I've never seen kids or grown-ups calling their black fellows "Black Pete". You're making blanket generalizations about a tradition that is totally unrelated to the misbehavior of a minority of idiots.
That's f*cking stupid! Nobody, literally nobody is ignoring racism.
But contrary to you we are blaming the actual cause, which are the racist people, not the tradition that has nothing to do with people being racist.
You should be criticizing the behavior of these racists, not screeching about Saint Nicholas.
These children behave like that because they are ill educated by their parents, not because of Saint Nicholas.
And you're the one whining about other people being racist here... yeah right...
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base
Banned
Around 20k collaborato
rs only in SS. Many more in Wehrmacht.
Ascend
Member
Right. It's all about intent... Try telling the court that you intended to save your friend from someone hitting him, which is why you stabbed the aggressor. Actions matter a lot more than intent. I didn't mention incentives all the time for nothing. Incentives are often by-products that are not intended but are real consequences. Example? Imagine if the government wants to reduce the wolf population. They write a law saying that every citizen who catches a wolf and brings it to the government will receive X amount of money. Sounds good right? What's the incentive in this case? People start breeding wolves instead for the money, exactly the opposite effect that was desired. The intention was great, but, it did not work. So no, it's not all about the intent behind things. It's about the result. And obviously, right now, the result is a bunch of people arguing about it and causing division. And yes, even you are contributing to it, and that includes me also.
This thread proved the contrary.
I did ask to provide more. Yes, I'm actually open to more culture points. I'm still waiting.
Oh yeah. I forgot carnival. That's another one. I guess that brings it to about average, I guess.
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lukilladog
Member
People getting offended as if they own certain degrees of melanin and entitled to be asked for permission lol.
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Katsura
Member
This isn't a court of law. It's about a joke
Ascend
Member
Oh don't back out now. You said it's all about the intent. I showed that it's not all about the intent. Now you want to change the subject. Typical.
Katsura
Member
No, i'm giving you an out rather than calling out all your fallacious arguments. I'd take it if i were you
Ascend
Member
And now we're down to threats... Typical bully tactics.
Katsura
Member
It's not a threat. I'm trying to do you a favour because your entire argument is constructed with numerous fallacies. It's very easy to deconstruct and refute. However, i'd rather not do that unless i have to so instead i simply pointed out the obvious - that laws cannot be compared to jokes
Ascend
Member
You are talking about fallacies, but, the whole laws vs jokes thing was not the point at all. This whole point of yours is a red herring, because, you are unwilling to admit that you were wrong about the whole intent thing, so now you shift the goal posts to the whole laws vs jokes thing. But whatever.
And don't do me any favors. Especially if they are hidden as back-handed cop outs.
Katsura
Member
No, my point was that the intent behind the joke is the only thing that matters. You have not in any way refuted this. Rather you started on a rant about some wolf law which is completely irrelevant. Now you're misusing red herring too
Again, the only thing that matters is the intent behind the joke. Not whether or not some over emotional leftie takes offence
TeamGhobad
Banned
ya but are they white committing rapes?
PocoJoe
Banned
Lol. It is just two words, dont be a baby.
Meanwhile muslims spam allahu akhbar everywhere, bomb, kill and do other shit.
To be fair saying allahu akhbar should be even worse and get you jailed/banned, because it is happening at the moment
But of course nazis are the worst even when it is almost 100 years already.
There are cultures and people that have killed many more than nazis, so unless everyone get the same treatment = it is just hypocrisy
How many are killed because of nazis at 2019, how many by muslims?
How many in history? What I have read, muslim idiology have killed many times more than nazis, like tens of millions.
Being a religion should not give them any slack
Both are/were strong ideology with ideas of killing and destroying people they hate by ethnicity/religion.
One hated mainly jews, one hates every other religion
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llien
Member
Literally it means "Hail Victory".
Mista
Banned
Yeah I learned that. The world won’t accept jokes like that anymore. Snowflakes? Maybe. Cunts? Definitely
Psykodad
Banned
Ascend
Member
I guess you still don't understand incentives. Oh well. I guess this is a useless interaction.
Just FYI, I do agree that people should not be overly sensitive. And in the case of this whole soccer thing, the sieg heil joke seems to be practically harmless. The same cannot be said regarding 10 year olds throwing racist slurs at others because of a tradition, but I guess that's another topic for another thread since it's been discussed more than it should have already. Considering the history of that line and its relation to Nazism, it might trigger some people. There is a reason why it's not a good idea to make those types of comments. You might go to Germany and as a harmless joke in the moment, you do the Nazi salute or Nazi walk in public. I guarantee you, even if your intent is harmless, you will get detained if the police sees you doing that. Why? Because a person's intent is not visible, and the action itself is not harmless, even if the intent is harmless. Only actions are visible. So don't tell me jokes and laws have no correlation. They easily can. And there is a reason this thread exists in the first place. This "harmless joke" already had real life consequences, independent of its intention, because again, intent is invisible and actions are visible.
I understand the whole freedom of expression thing. But people really misuse that. Freedom of expression, your valuable "vrijheid van meningsuiting", was designed for people to speak out against a tyrannical government. It was not implemented so that you are free to be an asshole to your fellow humans.
But I guess that is yet another example of a certain intent creating an unwanted incentive, but we're not gonna talk about that again.
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Katsura
Member
I do understand incentive but i just don't see how it's in any way relevant here. I also agree that applying common sense will make things much more easy. As for Germany, that's to be expected since they don't have freedom of speech. Nor does my own country Denmark or any other European country as far as i'm aware. That's a whole other issue in itself. No speech should be illegal unless it puts people in immediate danger such as yelling fire in a theater or calling for the extermination of a specific group of people. Beyond that, anything should be allowed because the minute we start to censor, it can and will be abused
Where we disagree is about the action - there is nothing harmful about it. No one is getting hurt physically by it. Someone getting triggered does not mean they're being harmed. Offence is taken, not given. It was a hot mic situation where he made a joke about someone he knew. There was clearly no intent to paint all Germans as nazis or something. The fact that EA, in itself one of the most unethical gaming companies in history, removes him yet has no problem working with Fifa in general shows the extreme hypocrisy. Fifa is one of the most corrupt organizations in the world. They gladly work with countries that uses slaves to build stadiums as long as they get some nice bribes to go with it
alabtrosMyster
Banned
Well, it's a hard thing to defend, it's hardly a rallying cry for democracy - quite the contrary.
And FIFA is a world wide thing, showing your allegiance to a group that attempted to take over the world by killing a lot of the people in it (massacre, Holocaust, etc.)...
There is no good reason for any sain person to be associated with the Nazi party. I mean, they were literally out to kill or enslave (at different degrees) whoever wasn't of Germanic descent.
Not only that but, millions of people died to stop them just 80 years ago.
kurisu_1974
is on perm warning for being a low level troll
National blackface day
I think you are on the wrong forum, get out of here with that instigating b.s.
kurisu_1974
is on perm warning for being a low level troll
They even apply black paint to look darker. Can a black dude even wear blackface I wonder?
kurisu_1974
is on perm warning for being a low level troll
Yet the regressive media is cool with Islam
But they do apply black make up. Do some of your own research instead of mindlessly repeating the crap politics and media feed you.
InterMusketeer
Gold Member
Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom to articulate opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction.
It's much broader than "speaking out against a government."
Opinions and ideas can potentially be offensive to others, but that's part of living in a free society. You're eventually going to run into things you don't like. The important thing is how you deal with it. Demanding all things you don't like to be removed, is more like a dictatorship, which has no place in a free society.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
National blackface day
yup seems super normal move along guys move along
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