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[Calverz]

lol yessssssssssssss

I went back and forth with who I liked and I think the game did a fucking great job of that. It was a rollercoaster of emotions and something I've never felt playing any other game. I go from hating Abby cause she killed Joel and feeling sorry for Ellie.

To then hearing Ellie lie to Jesse about WHY they killed Joel made me question her having him risk his life, for something she is lying to him about. It made me hate her more when you realize she is lying to her friends about that entire reason on why he was killed up until the point where Abby was about to end Dina with that knife lol

So when she says "i know why you did it", but you knew the whole time and never told your friends, friends that might actually talk you out of it when they realize the person that came to kill Joel, had their father killed by him.

She lied cause she knew there was just reason for someone like Abby to show up one day.


Then when you get to Abby's story, it clicks and you better understand her and her obsession of finding the man that killed her father, you get her connection to WLF and you see her question her own people when she makes friends with the Scar kid.

I love the idea of the farm cause it does indeed felt like the game is about to end and I believe this is purposely done to give you this sense of completion, to make you feel like it's fine to end it here and then to give you a bit more pain lpl

This is executed beautifully and in a way I've never seen another game do with pacing or time. When Tommy is coming to tell her about this lead you could already sense that she's becoming like Abby in regards to her hunt for revenge. Even with Dina pleading with her not to leave.


But the interesting twist in this is if Ellie never goes looking to kill Abby, Abby technically dies on that beach tied up and mal-nourished.

I enjoyed everything they were able to do with that game in terms of a story and I agree with the xe programmer, there is a bravery in killing a character the way they kill Joel.

Fuck the safe way....

We have way too many games giving that cartoon, Saturday morning, dumbass comic book horse shit of some person dying giving some nice speech at the very ending of a game after he saved 10,000 nuns lol

I love how its unexpected, random, at the very start and brutal.

I really liked how at the end, when looking for Abby tied to a post, you see an outline of someone who looks like Abby but when you get closer you realise it isn’t her and behind is the real Abby. Completely unrecognisable.

For me it goes back to first games ending. I didnt want Joel to save Ellie. I wanted them to get a cure. I thought the game was presenting a choice but then I got frustrated when I realised it wasn’t.

Throughout part 2, I was torn about Abby etc but as time went on, I much preferred her to Ellie.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Well then how would you expect Neil to write TLOU3? Which ending should he choose as cannon? Or do you think he should write two stories? What if he wants to bring Abby back in TLOu3?

Thats why only RPGs can have choices. Otherwise it feels vapid and pointless.

Former Naughty Dog programmer talks about how a slightly different ending was considered for TLOU 2 (translated from 2020 interview)

then why did abby kill joel????????????????????? Revenge, obviously. But once she gets it, it doesn't fulfill her. Abby's nightmares stop when she saves Yara. Unlike Ellie, who cannot rest or even sleep because Abby is still alive. She lives happily with her loved ones but cannot let it go...

www.neogaf.com

 

[struggler_guts]

Fuck all the joel and choice of ending shit, you guys are missing the biggest part

•Some play testers refused to kill dogs and just stopped playing

So they realized of course people hated doing that, and then put in a scene that forced players to kill a dog....

 

[Roni]

We already know what happened by the first hour, those flashbacks are just extra flavor to those events. And guess what, they just so happen to be most people's favorite parts of the game.

Too bad the game isn't about them, and that they're still just a fraction of the actual story content.

How, why and when are just as important as what.

 

[SlimySnake]

Fuck all the joel and choice of ending shit, you guys are missing the biggest part

•Some play testers refused to kill dogs and just stopped playing

So they realized of course people hated doing that, and then put in a scene that forced players to kill a dog....

Yes, im glad they did because fuck snowflakes who are ok with killing 1000 people in video games but wont kill dogs trying to kill them.

 

[Clear]

The 'braver' decision would have been giving the player the CHOICE to kill Abby in the end. Taking that away undermined everything the 20+ hour playthrough stood for. Absolutely baffling.

Nope. You don't get the choice to off the doctor in the OR at the end of part 1, and nobody complained!

This is the entire point of the first game, Joel is only "redeemed" so far as he only digs back into his former life as a brutal survivor when he's emotionally triggered.

This is why all the bitching about Part 2's story is so sad. Its absolute proof that people didn't understand Joel as a character.

 

[yamaci17]

lol yeah... the fact she couldn't play that guitar... she left the one last thing that reminded her of Joel. That's so fucked up

u so powerful for these comments thx u
rofif redeemed for yamaci

 

[deriks]

So here's how lame LoU2 became:
- killing Joel "was brave", even thou he fell on a dumb trap and even on the fucking first game he escaped from very intelligent ones
- tempo gets slow - that's because some areas are big as fuck and have nothing really added on the world of the game. Since Banjo Kazooie we see this shit
- even the devs didn't empathize with Abby and wanted to kill her, but Neil was eating too much soy and didn't allow this as an option. So it's fine to kill every other person, and even dogs, but the one that you really wants to kill is no go

 

[Guilty_AI]

How, why and when are just as important as what.

Do you really want to bring up how, why and when for this game? We could start with the absolutely awful pacing, which includes the way they presented these flashbacks, then how they went to another flashback which had even more flashbacks within the flashback.

 

[Roni]

Do you really want to bring up how, why and when for this game?

Sure. The how, why and when of the story is contained within those flashbacks

We could start with the absolutely awful pacing, which includes the way they presented these flashbacks, then how they went to another flashback which had even more flashbacks within the flashback.

Is your plan to talk in circles? Because I'm sure we already talked about the fact not every game needs to have the pacing of a movie.

 

[mckmas8808]

He was albe with me as I wouldnt make different one ;d Tough many would made different and in the end would be interesting to know the stats. Where is this written rule with golden letters that only rpg game can have choices ;d Im generaly no big supporter of choices as I want to see what narrators bring but in this case it would improve ending reception.

The bolded shouldn't be the goal though. It's literally the point to make people "FEEL" something about the ending. Neil wasn't trying to write a Disney ending to the story.

Yes, im glad they did because fuck snowflakes who are ok with killing 1000 people in video games but wont kill dogs trying to kill them.

EXACTLY! Some people these days want to go through life never feeling anything. These overly medicated kids just want to feel bliss and happiness. Anything that makes them feel sadness or anger is "BAD".

 

[Guilty_AI]

Sure. The how, why and when of the story is contained within those flashbacks

I'm not sure what you expect to achieve by defending that small portion of the story. I already said, they're extra flavor and cool to watch, but don't add much to the actual narrative being told. The story would change very little without them, but they're still interesting to see.

Or you could also call them the only redeeming thing of the entire game, which doesn't really sound like a praise.

Is your plan to talk in circles? Because I'm sure we already talked about the fact not every game needs to have the pacing of a movie.

It still needs good pacing. TLoU2 doesn't have good pacing.

 

[Roni]

... they're extra flavor and cool to watch, but don't add much to the actual narrative being told.

Or you could also call them the only redeeming thing of the entire game...

Seems like you can't make up your own mind about them.

Me? I think I've made it clear I think they're essential to understanding Ellie's character, her emotional journey and her decision at the end. And that's not barely any character development.

 

[rofif]

good character. She actually has personality. She is a teen homeless New Yorker. Of course she is a cussing asshole

 

[Guilty_AI]

Seems like you can't make up your own mind about them.

Me? I think I've made it clear I think they're essential to understanding Ellie's character, her emotional journey and her decision at the end. And that's not barely any character development.

No they're not. Ellie's and Joel's ambiguous relationship was already known by the player, along with whatever bitterness would come with his death. In fact, if i remember correctly, Druckmann said on one interview those flashbacks existed mostly to remind the player Joel existed at some point (and i assume to let them have footage for misleading game trailers too).

And if whatever 'journey' those flashbacks depict are so interesting, the game should've been about that, not the dumb revenge quest it became.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

The bolded shouldn't be the goal though. It's literally the point to make people "FEEL" something about the ending. Neil wasn't trying to write a Disney ending to the story.

Some could argue saving Abby was kinda Disneyish

 

[Roni]

No they're not. Ellie's and Joel's ambiguous relationship was already known by the player, along with whatever bitterness would come with his death.

Again, How, Why and When are just as important as What. But I'm not gonna go around in circles here. Peace Out!

 

[Guilty_AI]

Again, How, Why and When are just as important as What. But I'm not gonna go around in circles here. Peace!

Except thats not the story of the game. The story is both women dumb revenge quest, thats where the How, Why and When lies, not in Ellie's post-TLoU1 relationship with Joel.

 

[rkofan87]

Revenge, obviously. But once she gets it, it doesn't fulfill her. Abby's nightmares stop when she saves Yara. Unlike Ellie, who cannot rest or even sleep because Abby is still alive. She lives happily with her loved ones but cannot let it go.

In the end, you see which of the girls was in the right. Ellie is left with nothing. However, there is hope that she will start over since she is not attached to her past anymore. She cannot play guitar, but she cannot fight either. Having a main character amputated is a huge statement.

both are in the wrong imo.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Elle can just learn to use a guitar pick while playing the opposite orientation. Bonus points if it is made of Abby after the next rampage in Part III and Abby is finished with a golf club fatality.

 

[Fredrik]

If there's a 3rd title in the works then wouldn't they have to create a narrative based on one of those choices? I think of the last Gears game specifically.

Yeah, worst idea and ending ever. It’s not like they’ll make two games or two whole story arcs from beginning til end in the same game and with how many strings they pulled to make us kill JD we know which story arc they’ll go with for the next game.

 

[MikeM]

Fuck all the joel and choice of ending shit, you guys are missing the biggest part

•Some play testers refused to kill dogs and just stopped playing

So they realized of course people hated doing that, and then put in a scene that forced players to kill a dog....

Nothing wrong with making players uncomfortable. Sells the reality of the game.

Yes, im glad they did because fuck snowflakes who are ok with killing 1000 people in video games but wont kill dogs trying to kill them.

Snowflakes? Come on man- insecurity is showing.

 

[CamHostage]

Working on a wall hit facial expression and some other animations sounds very lame.

It's why game production takes so many people and several years to make a game, because the little detail work is so intricate now and so time-consuming to make right that it takes a person dedicated to lame tasks for the whole project to come together.

Back in the day, you'd have a spaceship sprite and a bunch of enemy sprites, and if your laserblast sprites collided with the enemy sprites then they would change to an explosion sprite but if your sprite touched an enemy sprite then you changed to an explosion and *DONE* you had a game... if you have time, add a little sparkles to the head of the laser tip for your spaceship's sub-sprite to make shots look real.

Now, you're animating or adding context sensitivity for every little incident that a character might encounter in their virtual world, and then testing it to make sure some minute little bit of detail doesn't cause the whole game to crash or break.

 

[SlimySnake]

Snowflakes? Come on man- insecurity is showing.

?

What are you one of those wokesters who dont like people using the term snowflakes?

 

[MikeM]

?

What are you one of those wokesters who dont like people using the term snowflakes?

If by “wokester” you mean me not caring about skin colors, genders or sexuality of people, especially main characters in games, then yeah I guess i’m a “wokester.”

 

[SlimySnake]

If by “wokester” you mean me not caring about skin colors, genders or sexuality of people, especially main characters in games, then yeah I guess i’m a “wokester.”

Which part of my post insulted people of color, homosexsuals, or religion? you got triggered by me calling people who wont kill dogs while going on a mass murdering spree snowflakes.

 

[Ulysses 31]

So I wasn't the only one. And I was disappointed that I couldn't do it and had to win.

I suspect a lot of players had these thoughts

 

[MikeM]

Which part of my post insulted people of color, homosexsuals, or religion? you got triggered by me calling people who wont kill dogs while going on a mass murdering spree snowflakes.

Wokester. Triggered. Snowflakes. What vocabulary…

You made it clear in using “wokester” in an inflammatory way, meaning that you don’t believe in social justice issues today (cool- do you). However, in calling me that, you indirectly brought those into it by definition of the word as that is how it is defined and largely utilized.

Im not going to respond further on this. Just be aware that throwing labels at people may insight a response.

 

[SlimySnake]

Wokester. Triggered. Snowflakes. What vocabulary…

You made it clear in using “wokester” in an inflammatory way, meaning that you don’t believe in social justice issues today (cool- do you). However, in calling me that, you indirectly brought those into it by definition of the word as that is how it is defined and largely utilized.

Im not going to respond further on this. Just be aware that throwing labels at people may insight a response.

We live in the 21st century where all these terms are widely used. If you dont like them, i suggest creating a time machine. Other than that, get with the times or call a spade a spade. I.e., people getting triggered over killing virtual dogs in a game about killing virtual people.

 

[shoegaze]

When Ellie started strangling Abby i almost started feeling something for that steroid mutant. What if. Very unfamiliar and unwanted feeling came to the forefront. What if... - making me almost believe that all of this stupid story is, really, a beautifully and intricately crafted masterpiece.

What if... Against all odds, severy and utterly crippling themselves at the start of the game, Naughty Gods would really pull this off. Handicapping themselves and playing against the whole world, would still come out on top as the master crafters they are. What if..

...what if they'd make me feel for Abby.









And then Ellie let her hands go.

And at that moment I realised that a true idiot wrote this.

 

[mckmas8808]

Some could argue saving Abby was kinda Disneyish

You could, I guess. I'm assuming she plays a huge role in TLOU3 though.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

What people fail to realize because they realized the story had a “revenge is bad” angle and decided that’s all they needed to know and proceeded to ignore any further theme development is that Ellie does not spare Abby because “revenge is bad”.

She does it for Joel.

Dina did not want Ellie running off again looking for Abby once they had settled at the farm. She wanted her to move on and truly start a life with her and their child. And it was clear that if Ellie choose to go after Abby, it could cost her her relationship with Dina.

As Ellie and Abby face off at the end, we’re treated to one final flashback with Ellie and Joel. They talk about how Ellie will try to slowly amend her relationship with him. But also how Joel wants Ellie to be happy and that if Dina truly cares about her then he wants that for Ellie.

Ellie realizes by choosing vengeance for Joel‘s sake over her relationship with Dina, she has actually gone against what Joel wanted for her. And even if it’s probably too late to save her relationship with Dina now, she spares Abby regardless in a desperate attempt to undo the damage she has done.

Sadly, she returns home to find it empty. She’s too late, and she sits alone with her guitar, the one thing she has left from him. In her desire to do right by Joel, she actually went against the last thing he made clear he wanted for her.

The players screaming for Ellie to find and kill Abby for Joel’s sake are ironically disrespecting Joel himself.

Nice writeup, and this is also how I interpreted Ellie's choice. Doesn't Ellie see Joel in a flashback during the last Ellie/Abby fight, right as she's about to finish Abby? That goes along with you're saying.

 

[mckmas8808]

When Ellie started strangling Abby i almost started feeling something for that steroid mutant. What if. Very unfamiliar and unwanted feeling came to the forefront. What if... - making me almost believe that all of this stupid story is, really, a beautifully and intricately crafted masterpiece.

What if... Against all odds, severy and utterly crippling themselves at the start of the game, Naughty Gods would really pull this off. Handicapping themselves and playing against the whole world, would still come out on top as the master crafters they are. What if..

...what if they'd make me feel for Abby.









And then Ellie let her hands go.

And at that moment I realised that a true idiot wrote this.

That also wrote the first game that sold over 20 million and co-wrote a TV show that was a hit and is now winning Emmys.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

My story proposal for the next sequel:

In Part 3, it turns out the cure to the fungus also cures golf club whacks to the head. Joel comes back from his injury even stronger than before, like the kid in Rookie of the Year, and throws Abby headfirst into Tommy's hydroelectric dam turbine.

 

[mdkirby]

This.

By the end, I was done with Ellie. I feel like she was a real dickhead to Joel in the flashbacks just because he chose to save her from being murdered.

Abby was the object of fierce loathing after what she did to Joel, but by the end, I empathized with her and was rooting for her to put Ellie down.

Yeah, seems an unpopular opinion round these parts …I never really understood the hate tbh

 

[Woggleman]

I am glad they stuck to their guns and went with the ending that they did.

 

[Warablo]

Abby was fine, but they didn't need to shit on Ellie, Tommy and Joel to try and get us to like her.

 

[AREYOUOKAY?]

I'm pretty sure everyone realized that, since the story is told with the subtlety of a bulldozer.

It's just too pretentious and badly executed. The fact that a flashback was put there in the end is hilarious, it makes it even less impactful.
Druckmann is a hack, he's more interested in shoving his agenda down people's throats than in actually learning how to tell an interesting story.

Here's a good story about "revenge bad" that has an excellent execution

I'd give him a golden raspberry for what he did to Joel.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

'Growing to realize' lol. No shit revenge is bad, it's the most common trope there is and was done with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Almost comical, considering RDR2 did the same exact theme much better two years prior. The only people who cried during TLOU2 are part of the im14thisisdeep crowd.

The 'braver' decision would have been giving the player the CHOICE to kill Abby in the end. Taking that away undermined everything the 20+ hour playthrough stood for. Absolutely baffling.

We werent given a choce to not kill the doctor in TLOU 1 either. If they gave that choice for Abby, their whole game would have to follow a new cannon. Im pretty sure they kept her alive for a reason (part 3). I prefer when there is a definitive ending rather than 3 endings that are all somewhat similar and then the next title comes out and "oh those other 2 endings, they aint real so we decided to continue the game with the second ending only in mind". TLOU aint an RPG, its a pretty linear told story.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

Give players choice would be better imo

They couldn't do that because they wouldn't like the choice 99% of players would make.

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

We werent given a choce to not kill the doctor in TLOU 1 either.

The situation was a little different.

You've got a surgeon guarding an unconscious Ellie weilding a scalpel. Would be pretty weird if Joel had made it through all that, killed all of those people, and then just walked away and left her there right at the end, don't you think?

 

[IAmAnAgnostic]

I keep seeing this interpretation and i dont get it. She didnt let her live because Joel would want her to. The flashback of Joel when shes drowning Abby is simply teasing the full conversation they have where they make up after years of her resenting him. the whole point of that flashback is to show that she is feeling guilt about treating him like shit for years and then losing him literally the morning after that conversation. She realized at that point that shes not angry with Abby, she's angry with herself.

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure she was (justifiably) a bit miffed at Abby, not "just at herself" lol. Considering she tortured her father figure to death in front of her (reminder; they never conversed as to why that was), and killed her other friends and disabled and mutilated others still, herself included. The absurdity of the meme remains, the time for some deep self reflection about my personal relationships on my now dead father would not be had as I'm killing the person responsible for their gruesome murder after I emotionlessly killed 1000 randos, and she showed no remorse, and she just mutilated me. Again, there is no escaping how horrendously ridiculously timed the self reflection is, no matter what the self reflection. "Ah wow, true, I was mean to Joel, there is no other issue that I was even slightly annoyed by. Who cares he died in horrible pain, the real issue is I was a meanie. Shame about the 1000 bodies in my wake, see you Abby, I actually was never even mad at you!"
That is again indeed one of the stories of all time.

 

[RJMacready73]

You know ND did something right when people are still debating/arguing over their story, they wanted to tell their story their way and kudos to them for not taking the easy fanboy way out and giving us all a left hook to the jaw, I for one cannot wait to see what they do with Part3

 

[Guilty_AI]

You know ND did something right when people are still debating/arguing over their story, they wanted to tell their story their way and kudos to them for not taking the easy fanboy way out and giving us all a left hook to the jaw, I for one cannot wait to see what they do with Part3

The Room was also discussed for years to come, they sure must've made a great and thought-provoking movie.

 

[angrod14]

Love how Naughty Dog made Abby even more muscular in the new cover artwork. Dem shoulders. Team Abby baby.

 

[mckmas8808]

They couldn't do that because they wouldn't like the choice 99% of players would make.

It's their story, not ours!

 

[cormack12]

I'd give him a golden raspberry for what he did to Joel.