• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Hong Kong marches for democracy (Live: Police begins to remove protesters)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Shiggy

Member
Hundreds of thousands of pro-democracy protesters marched in Hong Kong on Tuesday, many calling for the city's leader to be sacked, in what could turn out to be the biggest challenge to Chinese Communist Party rule in more than a decade.

Hong Kong Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying said his government would do its "utmost" to move towards universal suffrage and stressed the need for stability after nearly 800,000 people voted for full democracy in an unofficial referendum last month.

Organisers put the number of protesters at more than 510,000, emphasising this was a conservative estimate. Police said some 98,600 had joined the protest at its peak.

Tension is running high after the referendum. Roads were closed off around Victoria Park, where the rally started. Surrounded by police, demonstrators marched to Central, some shouting, "Overthrow the Chinese Communist Party." People were still leaving the park as the first protesters reached Central after four hours' marching.

Anson Chan, Hong Kong's former top civil servant and a key supporter of the unofficial referendum, said the vote was clear.

"They (voters) are not taken in by recent suggestions that we should pocket whatever we are offered in the hope that more would come later," she said. "This is just rubbish."

Organisers of the annual July 1 rally, marking the day the territory returned to China in 1997, were expecting the largest turnout since 2003, when half a million people demonstrated against proposed anti-subversion laws that were later scrapped.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/01/us-hongkong-protests-idUSKBN0F632A20140701


Live updates and stream:
http://www.scmp.com/article/1544215/live-thousands-gather-ahead-july-1-march-barricades-go-central
http://new.livestream.com/vdo/71live


Hoping my friends and all others will be alright. I'm scared that they don't stand a chance though. Real democracy will not happen with the current Beijing leadership. The mainland influence and control is only going to increase in coming decades.
 

tino

Banned
Hong Kongnese didn't work hard (or frankly shed any blood) to fight for democracy when their colonial masters were running the show. Now they will never get any more automany than Beijing is willing to give.
 

Blablurn

Member
gerjbs9a.jpg


dat germany shirt in the middle. you gotta love the symbolic meaning. lets go freedom
 

Shiggy

Member
Hong Kongnese didn't work hard (or frankly shed any blood) to fight for democracy when their colonial masters were running the show. Now they will never get any more automany than Beijing is willing to give.

That was before my time. So I really don't get why there were no such demands back then. Why did the British give up on HK?


dat germany shirt in the middle. you gotta love the symbolic meaning. lets go freedom

I would not read too much into that. There are lots of people on the street with Germany shirts these few days because of the World Cup. Was pretty surprised myself.
 

Dougald

Member
Oh I see. I wish things could've been handled differently. It really saddens me when the freedom in HK is at risk now.

Well Hong Kong Island itself and the Kowloon peninsula were ceded to Britain "in perpetuity" (though that was as a result of the awful opium wars which do not paint the British Empire in a positive light). The rest of Hong Kong was leased from the ROC for 99-years, which is what the PRC did not wish to renew. So technically, Hong Kong island and Kowloon could have remained British, but as so much of Hong Kongs infrastructure was based outside this territory, it was wholly impractical.

Plus there's this:

Baroness Thatcher said later that Deng Xiaoping, then China's leader, told her directly: "I could walk in and take the whole lot this afternoon."

She replied that China would lose everything if it did. "There is nothing I could do to stop you," she said, "but the eyes of the world would now know what China is like."
 

tino

Banned
That was before my time. So I really don't get why there were no such demands back then. Why did the British give up on HK?

You can read up on history of Indian rebellion ...very bloody shit. Basically you are not going get your own autonomy and your own regional identity if you are not willing to fight for it.

Majority of British Colonies fought and won their own independence, with a few exception of Canada, HK, etc.
 

Shiggy

Member
For or five lawyers, including University of Hong Kong law academic Benny Tai Yiu-ting - an Occupy Central founder - are now on their way to the Police College in Wong Chuk Hang where arrested protesters have been taken to, said a volunteer of the civil disobedience movement. She says the number would be "sufficient" for the scale of the arrests.

.
 
Hong Kongnese didn't work hard (or frankly shed any blood) to fight for democracy when their colonial masters were running the show. Now they will never get any more automany than Beijing is willing to give.
What sort of revisionist history is this? When the British was running the show (and for the entire duration of the British rule), it was a known factor that it will be handed back to China. There wasn't a place to "work hard" for democracy, because whatever system that was in place in Hong Kong at the time would was known to be "subject to change" by China once the handover occurs. The Hong Kong Basic Law, signed by both the British and Chinese, was established as a set of rules for the one country, two system framework that is meant to give autonomy for 50 years after the handover. There's always been a push for actual change for democracy, but this current push is the result of the continuous meddling, and the rise of the 20+ year olds who have now grown up in this new reality, seeing how their future will be impacted by what's been happening. The last 15+ years has seen China test the waters of how much they can get away with meddling without outside interference, and right now, it's just a tactic to see how long they can stall without breaking the society.

Personally, I agree that the end result is the same: Hong Kong won't get any more autonomy than what they have now (if not less), but I don't think any of it has to do with the people not fighting for it. It's a lost cause.
 

Darkangel

Member
They had a similar protest last year, I really hope they can get democracy or independence at some point. A lot of Hong Kongers came here to British Columbia around the time of the handover.

Stuff like this must really piss off the Communist Party:
aWGHRUI.jpg
 

Madness

Member
I don't see it happening any time soon. This should have happened in 1997, not now. Instead, many Hong Kong citizens fled abroad to places like Vancouver.

Now, the mainland has an iron grip on the island. It has invested far too much money to let it rule itself. It's one of the top destinations for mainland tourists as well. What would it say about the ruling CPC if they wanted self-rule? The only hope for Hong Kong would be greater democracy and representation in the mainland. But I just don't see it.
 

terrisus

Member
The Hong Kong handover still seems like it was just yesterday.
Hard to believe it's been 17 years already.
 
They had a similar protest last year, I really hope they can get democracy or independence at some point. A lot of Hong Kongers came here to British Columbia around the time of the handover.

Stuff like this must really piss off the Communist Party:
aWGHRUI.jpg

there is something a bit ironic about this picture....
 

SRG01

Member
Just proves my theory that Hong Kongnese are roll-overs, Beijing is not going to bat an eye.

Okay, as a person born in HK, I could hurl a bunch of explicit words at you, but I'll just say this: While Hong Kong was colonized by Britain, there were substantial efforts in bringing Western and Commonwealth ideas to the island. Not only that, but much of the island was treated with respect because of its economic stature.

Right now, China is treating Hong Kong ass backwards, and the Hong Kong people have a right to be pissed. It's another case of mainland chauvinism.

edit: Oh, and to the above who say that violence is necessary for democracy, I only have to point to Canada as an example. And it's Canada day! :D

edit2: Oh, and some of the people in this thread need to read some basic Hong Kong history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong As well, Hong Kong did have its own legislative body even before the handover...
 
I'd really love to see Hong Kong get independence from China but I know it'll never happen. I always love visiting Hong Kong but the mainlander influence is slowly destroying it.
 

SRG01

Member
I'd really love to see Hong Kong get independence from China but I know it'll never happen. I always love visiting Hong Kong but the mainlander influence is slowly destroying it.

It's not so much influence but rather mainland money. A lot of my mainland Chinese friends say that people go to Hong Kong because the prices are actually cheaper on the island. That, and there's a lot of crazy shit that goes on with Chinese goods -- think the fake baby formula thing a few years ago -- such that people are reluctant to buy anything domestically in the mainland.

There's also all sorts of weird import laws in the mainland as well. For instance, clothes made in China for a particular brand must be re-imported back in with much higher prices. Same goes for tariffs and other restrictions.

In contrast, Hong Kong is a free trade zone so the price of goods, at least in the past, were substantially less than other countries.
 

Timbuktu

Member
The fight for democracy might be futile but Hong kongers will have to do all they can to protect their rule of law and the freedom of the press, beyond the economy that's the most valueable asset and no one else in the world is going to pay attention or gave enough of a crap to disagree with China. They have been sensible and provoking China into a clampdown with PLA wouldn't be a good idea. But Beijing's hardline stance and their White paper that threatens HK's judiaciary needed a response. If Beijing was serious about tackling corruption, then they should really look to how to it might learn from Hk's legal system, not asking it to be 'patriotic'.
 

tino

Banned
Okay, as a person born in HK, I could hurl a bunch of explicit words at you, but I'll just say this: While Hong Kong was colonized by Britain, there were substantial efforts in bringing Western and Commonwealth ideas to the island. Not only that, but much of the island was treated with respect because of its economic stature.

Right now, China is treating Hong Kong ass backwards, and the Hong Kong people have a right to be pissed. It's another case of mainland chauvinism.

How do mainland treat HK ass backwards? Mainland is not imposing any tax on HK. Hong Kong economy is suffering because its own doing. HK doesn't make anything of value, and the government has failed to make the transition from the import/export agent for China to something else that attractive more foreign investment. Look at Singapore, it actually has a lot of foreign research companies.

edit: Oh, and to the above who say that violence is necessary for democracy, I only have to point to Canada as an example. And it's Canada day! :D

edit2: Oh, and some of the people in this thread need to read some basic Hong Kong history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong As well, Hong Kong did have its own legislative body even before the handover...

You know the war of 1812 right. This was where the Canadian colonists severely beat the American "liberation force". This is where the nationalistic self identify was born.
 

SRG01

Member
How do mainland treat HK ass backwards? Mainland is not imposing any tax on HK. Hong Kong economy is suffering because its own doing. HK doesn't make anything of value, and the government has failed to make the transition from the import/export agent for China to something else that attractive more foreign investment. Look at Singapore, it actually has a lot of foreign research companies.



You know the war of 1812 right. This was where the Canadian colonists severely beat the American "liberation force". This is where is nationalistic self identify was born.

Okay:

#1: LOL WUT Please go read up on Hong Kong's economy. They have one of the largest financial sectors in the world as well as one of the largest trading ports. The domestic economy is being squeezed not because of productivity but because of inflation.

#2: I take it you're not Canadian? Canada became independent in 1867, and it's arguable that Canadian nationalism didn't become prominent until World War I. That was when Canada was taken seriously on the world stage and had a seat at the League of Nations.
 

Kazerei

Banned
You know the war of 1812 right. This was where the Canadian colonists severely beat the American "liberation force". This is where the nationalistic self identify was born.

Ehhhh, modern Canadians look back on the War of 1812 as that time we beat the U.S. and as a point of national pride, but we were essentially a British colony back then. The War of 1812 did not birth nationalistic self-identity at the time, no.
 

tino

Banned
Ehhhh, modern Canadians look back on the War of 1812 as that time we beat the U.S. and as a point of national pride, but we were essentially a British colony back then. The War of 1812 did not birth nationalistic self-identity at the time, no.

Yeah but you guys have "royal to the Queen" in the constitution until the 60s? So Canadian and the Brits were in the same bed most of the time.
 
I don't see it happening any time soon. This should have happened in 1997, not now. Instead, many Hong Kong citizens fled abroad to places like Vancouver.

Now, the mainland has an iron grip on the island. It has invested far too much money to let it rule itself. It's one of the top destinations for mainland tourists as well. What would it say about the ruling CPC if they wanted self-rule? The only hope for Hong Kong would be greater democracy and representation in the mainland. But I just don't see it.
Everyday people from the mainland cross the borders (pregnant mainlanders), actual hong Kong people are literally getting bred out, a lot of the people speak with a mandarin accent.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
All my friends who live on or used to live on the mainland will not by anything ingestible unless it has Made in Hong Kong written on it.

I went to school with quite a few ex-pats who came over right around 1996-1997 as well. Cool people. These crackdowns seem to flare up every few years or so and I hope everything gets resolved peacefully.
 

kiunchbb

www.dictionary.com
Isn't hong Kong water, electricity, and defense are provided by China.

Hong Kong still rely on Chinese tourist for most of their revenue, at this point I don't think hong Kong can self sustain.
 
How do mainland treat HK ass backwards? Mainland is not imposing any tax on HK. Hong Kong economy is suffering because its own doing. HK doesn't make anything of value, and the government has failed to make the transition from the import/export agent for China to something else that attractive more foreign investment. Look at Singapore, it actually has a lot of foreign research companies.
It hasn't imposed taxes, but it's imposed enough puppets and rules to make sure the playing field is as uneven for Hong Kong as they can so that China can bring their own cities up to par (and in that regards, they've succeeded quite well). If you treat China as a unified country, sure, that's fantastic, but clearly in that mindset, this means pulling down Hong Kong as much as they can (and you can see this seeping through in all corners, from mainland investments driving land prices to astronomical heights, to the large parallel goods market that was literally killing the buying power of the Hong Kong people - the baby formula crisis was a great example of that). The fact that China has been meddling with Hong Kong's autonomy (which is suppose to be guaranteed with Basic Law) is enough of an unstabling factor to drive foreign investment away.

In fact, if you look at the hong kong legislature, you can even argue that the china-leaning "puppets" have inserted enough barriers and other busy matter in the way (like article 23) just to stall any real progress on things that matter to the people.
 

SRG01

Member
Yeah but you guys have "royal to the Queen" in the constitution until the 60s? So Canadian and the Brits were in the same bed most of the time.

Uh, no. Many Commonweath countries list the British monarchy as their Head of State to this date. Our governor general is the official representative of the Queen, yet we maintain our own sovereignty.

Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Act_1982

Isn't hong Kong water, electricity, and defense are provided by China.

Hong Kong still rely on Chinese tourist for most of their revenue, at this point I don't think hong Kong can self sustain.

Everyday people from the mainland cross the borders (pregnant mainlanders), actual hong Kong people are literally getting bred out, a lot of the people speak with a mandarin accent.

Exaggerations from both sides. Hong Kong is not being outbred by mainlanders. In fact, mainland Chinese still comprise a small percentage of Hong Kong's total population.

On the other side, Hong Kong provides its own water, IIRC. There are several major water basins that were created after a few water crises... somewhat after WWII I believe? Not sure about electricity, but I'm sure Hong Kong has its own. As for defense, well, I don't think Hong Kong ever had an army so what's the point of bringing that up? As well, Hong Kong's economy is self-sustaining (their finanicial sector is larger than tourism: http://www.censtatd.gov.hk/hkstat/sub/sp80.jsp?tableID=189&ID=0&productType=8 ) and was before and after the handover. What kind of rhetoric is this?
 

Firemind

Member
Isn't hong Kong water, electricity, and defense are provided by China.

Hong Kong still rely on Chinese tourist for most of their revenue, at this point I don't think hong Kong can self sustain.

This is true. EVERY salesman/woman spoke Mandarin during my stay this year. So many mainlanders going there now compared to ten years ago. Truly remarkable.
 
Isn't hong Kong water, electricity, and defense are provided by China.

Hong Kong still rely on Chinese tourist for most of their revenue, at this point I don't think hong Kong can self sustain.
IIRC, Hong Kong is self sufficient for electricity. Civil defense (police, special forces) are strictly within Hong Kong (and, also the crux of the protests over Article 23). Water is the odd one out, imported from China through the Dong River. This had always been a source of discussion and worry (and often satirized in political cartoons in HK), that basically if China wants to break HK, all they need to do is just to choke their water supply out.
 

jtb

Banned
Isn't hong Kong water, electricity, and defense are provided by China.

Hong Kong still rely on Chinese tourist for most of their revenue, at this point I don't think hong Kong can self sustain.

I wouldn't say they rely on tourism for most of their revenue... it's not like Hong Kong isn't one of the most important financial centers in the world and a very busy shipping hub.
 

SRG01

Member
IIRC, Hong Kong is self sufficient for electricity. Civil defense (police, special forces) are strictly within Hong Kong (and, also the crux of the protests over Article 23). Water is the odd one out, imported from China through the Dong River. This had always been a source of discussion and worry (and often satirized in political cartoons in HK), that basically if China wants to break HK, all they need to do is just to choke their water supply out.

Yeah, with the import of water, they don't have to rely on the various freshwater basins anymore. However, it's still kind of a stretch to say that water is Hong Kong's main weakness when they've certainly overcome this issue in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_...in_Hong_Kong#Freshwater_reservoirs_in_the_sea
 

otapnam

Member
I wouldn't say they rely on tourism for most of their revenue... it's not like Hong Kong isn't one of the most important financial centers in the world and a very busy shipping hub.

Some people r too young to remember what HK was about pre '97 and how that date affected the Hong Kong people for decades before
 
Isn't hong Kong water, electricity, and defense are provided by China.

Hong Kong still rely on Chinese tourist for most of their revenue, at this point I don't think hong Kong can self sustain.

Are they asking for more autonomy or complete independence? Because if it's the former I'd imagine they'd still get resource/defense from the mainland.
 

otapnam

Member
How was it before? Id really like to know.

It had its own culture, govt, and society separated from china. Who knew wtf was going to happen back then? Nobody knew what china was going to be like now. It seems like 17 years later alot of those fears are coming true, no?
 
Some people r too young to remember what HK was about pre '97 and how that date affected the Hong Kong people for decades before
Exactly. The bulk of the exodus from Hong Kong to Australia, US and Canada happened post 89 all the way to 97, for many reasons like education, economic growth, and what china's willing to regarding democracy (and 89 scared the hell out of everyone).

More importantly, given the last few year's push on education front (and with this ongoing event), those fears of China meddling is definitely proving to be true. I think my dad, despite the constant complaint about how things are going in Hong Kong, is honestly laughing his way seeing how right he was about how the education is going, and how much "brainwashing" and whitewashing is taking place within education.
 

SRG01

Member
How was it before? Id really like to know.

I'll sum it up with several descriptors: Economic freedom. Prosperity. Hope for a better, democratic future. Despair over communist China. Worrying about a family's future under Chinese rule.

The fear of things being drastically different after the takeover was very real for many people. It was the primary reason why many people emigrated to other countries in the 80s and 90s. While the Basic Law did have some guarantees for democracy, many people had a deep mistrust of the mainland's intentions.

Oh, that and Tienanmen Square. That scared people like hell and was the last straw for most.

Exactly. The bulk of the exodus from Hong Kong to Australia, US and Canada happened post 89 all the way to 97, for many reasons like education, economic growth, and what china's willing to regarding democracy (and 89 scared the hell out of everyone).

More importantly, given the last few year's push on education front (and with this ongoing event), those fears of China meddling is definitely proving to be true. I think my dad, despite the constant complaint about how things are going in Hong Kong, is honestly laughing his way seeing how right he was about how the education is going, and how much "brainwashing" and whitewashing is taking place.

There's a Hong Kong community in Australia? Whereabouts? I'd love to visit there if I had the chance...
 
I remember when Hong Kong was featured in Street Fighter.
ii27P9iHVkIPN.png


And so was the USSR.

Oh shit...

Exactly. The bulk of the exodus from Hong Kong to Australia, US and Canada happened post 89 all the way to 97, for many reasons like education, economic growth, and what china's willing to regarding democracy (and 89 scared the hell out of everyone).

More importantly, given the last few year's push on education front (and with this ongoing event), those fears of China meddling is definitely proving to be true. I think my dad, despite the constant complaint about how things are going in Hong Kong, is honestly laughing his way seeing how right he was about how the education is going, and how much "brainwashing" and whitewashing is taking place within education.

Could you talk about this some more? HK has always been a very interesting subject for me. By brainwashing do you mean it in the sense that the mainland is censor/altering the education system?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom