firehawk12
Subete no aware
I suppose they could just convince the super rich to move there and start families at that point.
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Hong Kong marches for democracy (Live: Police begins to remove protesters)
- Thread starter Shiggy
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Just a quick note about speculative properties: Canada is suffering from the same issue in certain housing markets. Certain properties in Vancouver are heavily inflated because of overseas money coming in.
Secondly, the Chinese buying property has a lot to do with how individual Chinese citizens can park their money. There are a lot of restrictions on investments and stuff, so the only feasible avenue for the rich is real estate. They don't merely buy up foreign property but also domestic property as well.
There was speculation about a Chinese housing bubble, but it hasn't happened after years of 'Oh, it's totally going to happen ohnoes!!'
What is scary about mainland money is the Shadow Banking industry. No one truly knows what the debt/leverage level is at in China, and there aren't the typical transparency laws that Western governments enjoy.
Chinese are buying a lot of property here too, mainly in the South East of England.
After visiting Hong Kong and China last year and learning about their political history I can't say that I am surprised because in 2047 Hong Kong has to fully integrate with China both politically and economically. I am just confused by this because Hong Kong is one of the most successful places in the world economically as they have a GDP that is ranked around the top 20 for countries. Plus they have been voted as the most democratic place in the world. Again I can't say that I am surprised at China's action only that I am surprised that it is coming so soon and not closer to 2047.
Quite impossible this is real.
This isn't even close to being true.
The CCP can afford to be patient. I can see HK just continuing to slowly move towards China and China slowly move towards HK, until they are almost indistinguishable. Any sudden moves would be pretty stupid, politically.
It's not comparable at all. A small and old flat (yes, a really small flat) in a remote area close to the Chinese border already costs about 200k-300k Euros. And flats are incredibly small, I don't think I've seen something comparable in Germany. For 200k Euros you can get a decent house in lots of places in Germany.
Also, in Germany you at least have the chance to move to some suburban area which might be cheaper. In Hong Kong even those areas are not exactly affordable. I think all of my friends who recently left university are still living at home with their parents as they cannot afford their own (leased) apartment. I don't think that's acceptable to most Germans - for me it certainly would not be.
I think that was the hope for many and it was true in that China has changed more than HK in the decade and. Half after handover. Things have been markedly different since Xi Jinping took the reins though. Who knows though, chances are China will go through more change and upheavals than HK before 2046.
As for the colonial flag, it is particularly provocative towards Beijing and probably not wise, but it's not really longing for the British to return or anything like that. But there is a nostalgia or a time when HK's most valued institutions were established, the ICAC, the rule of law and press freedom etc that is clearly being eroded. Before 1997, the mentality was different. There was this expiry date and you have no idea what will happen after. Which is why people who could looked to move abroad and it was all about the perpetual present and everything felt temporary. This sentiment can be seen in all WKW movies like Chungking Express or movies like Commrade, Almost a love story. After 97, you suddenly have a generation that has to think about HK as a permanent thing. That is when people started to think about the value of heritage and preserving the city's identity.
This is a normal thing in Asia though. Most young people don't move out of their parent's homes after graduation due to cost reasons. A lot of my friends from Singapore, Korea or HK simply choose to stay with their parents. 200 000 to 300 000 Euros would give you a normal apartment in certain parts of Germany, but nothing too great either. I know that in Stuttgart, a 90 square m apartment can cost between 300 000 to 400 000 depending on their location and age. This is more of a moot point however as most places in Europe aren't as crowded as some Asian cities. A better comparison would be the mortgage prices in Tokyo or Seoul.
For my friends in Hong Kong it's not just a cultural thing though. They simply cannot afford renting out a place because of high leases and low salaries.
Also, what you are saying about Germany is correct. The difference is that you still have the choice to move to a cheaper area relatively close to the city. That's simply not an option in Hong Kong. And 90 square m would be pretty large for a HK flat, isn't it?
You dont know anything about Canada.
90 sq m is the equivalent of a real big house in HK. With 300 000 you have a appartment which the average European would classify as a shoebox, that is the difference.
ProfessorMoran
Member
Rather than a country that stripped them of their properties, has a policy of forced brainwashing and mass killing?
Yeah I'd take Britain over that shit any day of the fucking week.
ProfessorMoran
Member
It's funny money, we don't really know how much the rmb is actually worth, government is buying up properties and people have money in their hands which they used to invest in Canadian real estate, that and our lax refugee policy does not help in stopping mainlanders from driving real estate prices up.
You dont seem to understand that what HK'ers are not saying that everything was perfect under the British, but that the current situation and a climate of decreasing freedoms is much worse then it used to be.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
There's no way this could spread to China and possibly change the status quo over there?
You don't seem to understand that when you fight for your freedom you don't ask for a regime that never gave you freedom and discriminated against you.
You pave your own path instead of asking to be the slaves of a slightly better master.
Classic Stockholm syndrome.
Yes, and most Asian countries I know of have much smaller living spaces due to higher population density. My room in Japan was a literal shoe box of 6 Sq. meters. 300 000 would probably get you less than half the living space in most Asian metropolitan cities. Again this isn't something unique to HK hence why in Asian countries, nobody would look down at you for living with your parents after graduation. Heck I remember a German colleague of mine who was living with his in-laws in Shanghai. I guess I just fail to see how this relates to their China problem as whole, seeing as all apartments cost a fortune in Asian cities.
There are a few factors that cause the high unrealistic high real estate price in HK. One of them being that HK has a small libertarian government and the city is really run by the 4 major real estate families. The other is there are too many middle class wealth tied in to the real estate value. Any measure of trying to bring down the real estate price has met frious resistant from both the rich people and middle class.
So basically this cyclical policies, plus the fact that HK is losing its regional trade importance, has push the affordable apartments out of the hands of young people.
You have to compare HK to cities of similar status. Now look at Shenzhen, which is literrally right next door to HK. People on average live in much bigger apartment and have much larger personal space on average. Why is that? Now look at HK government and how many, or lack of new space thats being auction off to build new apartment buildings, and you will get an idea.
Ive been travelling to hk yearly for the last 7 years (worked and studied there for abit too), and you definately feel an exponential increase in chinese presence especially in the last 4 years. The disdain for the mainlanders from the hong kong people have gone up quite abit as well i think.
Stop being obtuse, people in HK aren't asking to go back to British rule (although every place have their few nutters)
AlphaTwo00
Member
This. In many democratic societies, there's always bickering about how people feel like they have to choose between the lesser of two evils when it comes to political parties/personalities, or the siding with the devil you know vs the one you don't (hey, we're practically seeing this EVERYWHERE in the western hemisphere when it comes to election), so somehow when the Hong Kong people do it, it's Stockholm syndrome?
HAHAHAHA. Not even close. The fact that the march was about universal suffrage should tell you enough about the state of democracy in HK.
Okay I didn't know about the development of new spaces that is going on in HK, is the government there just using the available landmass for other commercial purposes? I mostly assumed the higher mortgage costs is due to HK having only limited living space anyway since they are on a small Island.
I don't know in which dimension you're living in but in this reality the pro-democracy drive in HK is for democracy, no-one is talking or wanting about a return to British colonial rule except from maybe some extremely minor number of radical nutcases.
There are plenty of space in HK proper. There are even deserted villages in Hong Kong. Why don't people like to live in the countryside, the rest of the world, including the mainlanders, will never know. You have to ask why don't the HK government build more apartments, or push forward mass transit projects that's large scaled enough to shift the city centers to the empty spaces.
Look at Guangzhou, again just next to HK, it shift the center of the city to the east side of the old Guangzhou in just 20 years. Why isn't the Hong Kong government doing enough to lower the living expenses pressure of the people, which has zero interference from Beijing? Look at the Hong Kong people's complain, "rich mainlanders are coming in to buy up the apartments." Huh? The mainlander rich people arent even living in those apartments, they are just using the ownership of the real estate to get a HK "passport". Why isn't HK government use this golden opportunity to make tons of money by taxing mainlander buyers? Whose fault is it? Is Dubai government complaining that the foreign money is buying up their useless empty apartments?
Warning: there's a really long post coming.
Chinese speculation had been touched upon in this thread, so I won't talk about that anymore.
With regards to public housing, which I find hilarious because of your repeated statements about Hong Kong's supposed Libertarian government, is that about half of Hong Kong's housing is public housing of some sort. The best way to describe it is mass public housing projects, with different subsidized rents or ownership schemes. Public housing is a huge deal, especially after the huge fire in the 1950s. Incidentally, much of my family and extended family has gone through public housing at one point or another.
On the other side, you have private housing as well, such as Mei Foo which I lived in before emigrating. Housing estates and complexes such as these account for about the other half of the Hong Kong market.
So now that's covered: ironically, public housing measures may have some effect in driving private prices too because of unmet demand. The lack of land is another issue as there are massive restrictions on where real estate can be built. (Fun fact, IIRC there is more untouched green land than developed areas in the entirety of Hong Kong) What ends up happening is that the only people who have money to bid on the land auctions are the housing oligarchs -- similar to the wireless auction that the Canadians in this thread may know about.
Lastly, the solution to this problem is, in my opinion, a massive expansion of public housing with a move to all public housing eventually as well as measures to increase competition in the private housing market. Set-asides or newcomer-only auctions could be held to broaden the ownership of land. The other alternative - complete elimination of the public housing market and subsidy - won't worn because of the massive amount of mainland money within the market. There will never be provisions in place to restrict that flow, so the private market is pretty much screwed.
There's a lot of factors involving infrastructure, sustainability, as well as preserving the natural environment of Hong Kong. They've already opened up the NT for development years and years ago so. Not sure if housing development had really started on Lantau, but it makes me sad just to think about it. It's a really nice place. Incidentally, Chow-Yun Fat grew up there.
If you actually attempted to follow the discussion rather than just randomly jumping on me you would see that my initial comment and the subsequent posts was referring to those radical nutters in the picture.
I never talked about people in HK in general. So who is being obtuse now??
Next time try to follow the thread before posting, yeah?
Uh, even with regards to that photo, equating public demonstrations to some huge deal about the existence of Hong Kong democracy is a bit of a stretch.
I mean, isn't that the point? Demonstrating for British, Western, democratic values? They aren't nuts for holding up the colonial flag.
Those are a small number of nutters but if you want to defend them more power to you.
AlphaTwo00
Member
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/police-clear-hundreds-of-protesters-from-hong-kong-s-financial-district-1.1895401
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5862242/beijing-allied-politician-in-hong-kong-some-degree-of-violence-is
Well then... I'm honestly not sure how things are going to play out.
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5862242/beijing-allied-politician-in-hong-kong-some-degree-of-violence-is
Well then... I'm honestly not sure how things are going to play out.
ProfessorMoran
Member
Being ruled by China is not a better alternative, you're still discriminated, except now it's by mainlanders who hold a deep grudge because they used to envy people in HK, now they fucking own you because they have all this funny money. Nobody is saying the Brits are perfect, but they have a certain level of morality, now people in HK are dealing with motherfuckers who would try to sell you everything from fake baby formula to fake watermelon, the level of morality post- cultural revolution is at a fucking disgusting level, I wouldn't trust these guys with my dog.
It's ok. tell us what you really feel.
ProfessorMoran
Member
Let me clarify that, people who sell you fake baby formula and fake watermelons are motherfuckers, however there's no real public outrage in china to stop this kind of stuff from happening, corruption has become the norm, you don't see massive protests for better air quality and cleaner drinking water, shit has to literally hit the fan before anybody does anything.
I'm not sure there's anything anybody can do anyway. You see Chinese tourists in HK with carry-ons buying baby formula because they don't trust the stuff they sell back in China, would you trust them when they don't even trust their own? I think HK people have generally resigned to their fate, all they care about is the fascade of economic prosperity but that's not going to last.
He can't even read properly. Nobody said it's better and conveniently brushed aside every single valid point.
But whatever, I'm sick of dealing with people with absolutely no sense of history glorifying the oh so wonderful colonialism.
I'm not really sure why they would. I can't see why they would have fought for 'democracy' specifically when it was functioning more like a democracy than mainland China was.
They didn't really fight for independence, but then a large part of the population never really had any history in the region to begin with. Barely anyone lived there when the British took over apart from a few fishermen. A large part of the population were migrants fleeing the Chinese civil war. There was nothing really to fight for.
AlphaTwo00
Member
So in your view, all those people who were on the streets for the march and demonstrating are all idiots glorifying "oh so wonderful colonialism", including several prominent lawmakers, educators from the various universities, and religious leaders who were all arrested. I guess those were the idiots too.
I get your position and how you view all of this, but I think the time-lapse video of all the people marching in Hong Kong feels differently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfBOJN1prpk
So how many times do I have to repeat that my entire discussion was about the fringe group of nut cases in the image on the first page?
The majority of the protesters were not doing that and I have not made a negative single comment on them at all. Those people who protest and got arrested were NOT asking for the UK back. Got it?
But keep on making strawmen because for some reasons you can't even handle criticisms of fringe groups and without a valid argument you have to pretend it's about something else.
AlphaTwo00
Member
I see. Well considered it dropped. Frankly I had no idea you're still hung up on that image. I wrote that off as the the absurdist statement that it is, but throughout the entire time it reads like you're complaining about the majority of the protesters.
I wasn't hung up on that image at all. I made an offhand comment disparaging them because they actually hurt the people who are fighting for the real cause.
And then people started replying to me as if I was attacking something else. So what am I supposed to do? Just ignore it?
SecretMoblin
Member
didn't want to make a new thread, but just saw this: China rules out open Hong Kong chief executive poll
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