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[jason10mm]

I'm setting up a refugee camp in my bed for that last girl @2:53

Sadly that is probably the fate of most of those girls/women.

 

[Thaedolus]

There can be blame passed around for Afghanistan broadly. This particular operation, the one we are watching fall apart before our eyes, lies at the feet of this administration. The previous administration negotiated some deal. The Biden administration negotiated another one. They chose this date. If they were not going to be able to meet their own deadline without this level of chaos, they should have negotiated another date. They should have consulted more closely with allies. It’s a debacle. Maybe it was always going to be. But they look like fools running around talking about how the Taliban were at best months away from taking Kabul, then it happens over a weekend. That blame, again, lies solely with this administration.

I don’t want to get dragged into a full on political discussion with the new rules, so I’ll just say your analysis is deeply flawed in that it’s myopic and oversimplifying the situation.

 

[DeepBreath87]

I don’t want to get dragged into a full on political discussion with the new rules, so I’ll just say your analysis is deeply flawed in that it’s myopic and oversimplifying the situation.

It’s not political at all. Your inability to see accept the reality of the situation might be, but nothing I have said is political. They ran around since the spring saying Afghanistan was months from full collapse, that Kabul would hold literally a couple of weeks before it fell. Then it fell in the span of 10 days. They negotiated this date in order to have some bullshit symbolism with 9/11. This isn’t me making things up. They’ve literally said these things.

These are facts. If you want to abdicate the responsibility for the decisions they made and have openly said they would have made regardless of the previous administration, that is your politics clouding your own judgement. Joe Biden has said, on the record, he was going to do this. He negotiated this date. This is entirely his administration’s operation. No amount of whining from you will change that.

 

[Thaedolus]

It’s not political at all. Your inability to see accept the reality of the situation might be, but nothing I have said is political. They ran around since the spring saying Afghanistan was months from full collapse, that Kabul would hold literally a couple of weeks before it fell. Then it fell in the span of 10 days. They negotiated this date in order to have some bullshit symbolism with 9/11. This isn’t me making things up. They’ve literally said these things.

These are facts. If you want to abdicate the responsibility for the decisions they made and have openly said they would have made regardless of the previous administration, that is your politics clouding your own judgement. Joe Biden has said, on the record, he was going to do this. He negotiated this date. This is entirely his administration’s operation. No amount of whining from you will change that.

Again I’m not saying there isn’t blame for the administration, what I’m saying is this:

They own this. Entirely. No excuses.

…is an incredibly simplistic and dumb take on the situation. Yes, 8 months to prevent a complete debacle should’ve been enough time, especially if you’re going to present yourself as the adults being back in charge, but 8 months isn’t enough time to undo 20 years of horseshit.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Again I’m not saying there isn’t blame for the administration, what I’m saying is this:


…is an incredibly simplistic and dumb take on the situation. Yes, 8 months to prevent a complete debacle should’ve been enough time, especially if you’re going to present yourself as the adults being back in charge, but 8 months isn’t enough time to undo 20 years of horseshit.

Who says it was? Is that some attempt to obfuscate what we are discussing here? No one thinks they could’ve fixed Afghanistan in 8 months. We are talking about the way the exit has played out. That is entirely their responsibility. This was their plan. No one is blaming Joe Biden for the whole failure of the Afghan government.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I havent followed whats going on and not going to skim through 6 pages of posts. I do faintly remember news articles about people fleeing Afghanistan so no doubt it looks like the usual Middle East "they will always fight forever" world event. It can be the year 50,000 and The Borg have taken over Earth and you'll still get warlords and rebels fighting there against government, the US and their own people. It's like born and bred in their blood.

With that said, I'm enjoying not getting into politics (read or contributing to world events much). Unless it's jammed in my face like Biles in every Olympics telecast and sports site, I'm happily surfing business, sports and game sites for entertainment.

It was bugging me for a couple days as I couldnt remember which game it was with a tune stuck in my head..... Then I remembered. I thought it came from 16-bit days, but it was Panzer Dragoon - Empire track.

 

[Thaedolus]

Who says it was? Is that some attempt to obfuscate what we are discussing here? No one thinks they could’ve fixed Afghanistan in 8 months. We are talking about the way the exit has played out. That is entirely their responsibility. This was their plan. No one is blaming Joe Biden for the whole failure of the Afghan government.

Don’t you think if the Afghan government hadn’t failed this would’ve played out differently? And if so, why would the entire responsibility for the exit fall completely on this admin? Do you understand why I think it’s far more complicated than you’re making it out to be when you start asking questions about how we got to where we are?

 

[DeepBreath87]

Don’t you think if the Afghan government hadn’t failed this would’ve played out differently? And if so, why would the entire responsibility for the exit fall completely on this admin? Do you understand why I think it’s far more complicated than you’re making it out to be when you start asking questions about how we got to where we are?

You understand that the fall was precipitated by our pulling of all air support, correct? And the Biden administration was using bad intelligence about the fortitude of the Afghan military. They are responsible for the decisions they make and the information they trust.

Did they or did they not try to coordinate this withdraw to align with 9/11?

 

[Thaedolus]

You understand that the fall was precipitated by our pulling of all air support, correct? And the Biden administration was using bad intelligence about the fortitude of the Afghan military. They are responsible for the decisions they make and the information they trust.

Did they or did they not try to coordinate this withdraw to align with 9/11?

You’re still not engaging with my point at all. You don’t need to me concede that they’ve bungled this operation, I’ve already said they’re deserving of criticism for how they’ve handled it. My point is that your continued insistence that they own it in its entirety while accepting that it’s a much more complicated situation than that is ridiculous and untenable.

They were handed a shit sandwich they had to eat and saying it’s all their fault they dripped some on the new carpet while ignoring how the predicament started is silly.

 

[infinitys_7th]

There can be blame passed around for Afghanistan broadly. This particular operation, the one we are watching fall apart before our eyes, lies at the feet of this administration. The previous administration negotiated some deal. The Biden administration negotiated another one. They chose this date. If they were not going to be able to meet their own deadline without this level of chaos, they should have negotiated another date. They should have consulted more closely with allies. It’s a debacle. Maybe it was always going to be. But they look like fools running around talking about how the Taliban were at best months away from taking Kabul, then it happens over a weekend. That blame, again, lies solely with this administration.

Afghanistan collapsing was inevitable - it's never been a real united country, just land a bunch of warring factions occupied that the west wanted to pretend was or was capable of being a cohesive whole. However, the withdraw should have been orderly (especially with the 4 month delay) and the complications could have been adapted to (as Britain and other countries have proven with superior evacuation of citizens).

8 months isn’t enough time to undo 20 years of horseshit.

Biden, all the Obama carryovers in his administration, and all the other octogenerians from the Bush years in both parties that still fill the legislature, were directly involved with and supportive of 8-16 years of that bullshit and did nothing to end it.

Beyond being a major force in starting the war and the post-9/11 national security apparatus that plagues the US, Biden voted for funding the war and nation building throughout the Bush administration. Him being nominally against "the surge", which was a political stunt both parties utilized to bolster their bases, is not sufficient to dismiss his culpability. Once VP, Biden was always claimed as a moderating influence, and Obama's (at the time) so-called radical promise to end the Iraq and Afghan wars mysteriously vanished after the 2008 election.

This is Biden's war about as much as it is anyone else in the bipartisan establishment that supported it and refused to end it until an outsider set the wheels in motion. His being VP for 8 years means he shares more responsibility for it than his fellow Senators, although he obviously has less responsibility than Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/etc. He can't complain about his own mess.

 

[infinitys_7th]

Biden vows revenge for Kabul attack that killed 13 U.S. service members

The attack outside the walls of Kabul's airport left scores of Afghans dead, and made for U.S. forces' deadliest day in Afghanistan in years.

www.cbsnews.com

Washington — At least two explosions near the main airport in Kabul resulted in "a number of US & civilian casualties" on Thursday, the Pentagon said, the worst-case scenario for U.S. efforts to evacuate Americans and Afghan allies from Afghanistan ahead of President Biden's August 31 deadline to withdraw.

"We can confirm that the explosion at the Abbey Gate was the result of a complex attack that resulted in a number of US & civilian casualties," Pentagon press secretary John Kirby said on Twitter. "We can also confirm at least one other explosion at or near the Baron Hotel, a short distance from Abbey Gate. We will continue to update."

I'm hearing on CNBC that some of the casaulties are confirmed deaths that include children. This is absolutely heartbreaking.

Apparently it looks likely that an ISIS affiliate is behind the attack rather than the Taliban, per Sheppard Smith.

 

[DeepBreath87]

You’re still not engaging with my point at all. You don’t need to me concede that they’ve bungled this operation, I’ve already said they’re deserving of criticism for how they’ve handled it. My point is that your continued insistence that they own it in its entirety while accepting that it’s a much more complicated situation than that is ridiculous and untenable.

They were handed a shit sandwich they had to eat and saying it’s all their fault they dripped some on the new carpet while ignoring how the predicament started is silly.

At this time, we are talking past each other. If you agree they bungled this operation, then we agree. The broader failure of US foreign policy is a larger discussion. But the pullout from Afghanistan was their responsibility and they have failed to do it competently.

 

[Thaedolus]

Afghanistan collapsing was inevitable - it's never been a real united country, just land a bunch of warring factions occupied that the west wanted to pretend was or was capable of being a cohesive whole. However, the withdraw should have been orderly (especially with the 4 month delay) and the complications could have been adapted to (as Britain and other countries have proven with superior evacuation of citizens).



Biden, all the Obama carryovers in his administration, and all the other octogenerians from the Bush years in both parties that still fill the legislature, were directly involved with and supportive of 8-16 years of that bullshit and did nothing to end it.

Beyond being a major force in starting the war and the post-9/11 national security apparatus that plagues the US, Biden voted for funding the war and nation building throughout the Bush administration. Him being nominally against "the surge", which was a political stunt both parties utilized to bolster their bases, is not sufficient to dismiss his culpability. Once VP, Biden was always claimed as a moderating influence, and Obama's (at the time) so-called radical promise to end the Iraq and Afghan wars mysteriously vanished after the 2008 election.

This is Biden's war about as much as it is anyone else in the bipartisan establishment that supported it and refused to end it until an outsider set the wheels in motion. His being VP for 8 years means he shares more responsibility for it than his fellow Senators, although he obviously has less responsibility than Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/etc. He can't complain about his own mess.

I can’t really disagree with any of that except: from everything I understand about the Obama years, Biden was against the troop surges and had realized what a mistake it all was by 2010. There’s even a letter he sent to Obama expressing as much. But you’re right, he owns his vote as a senator along with the rest

 

[Ownage]

i'm pissed that we (not US) have been at war for 20 years and pretty much nothing has been achieved except wasted billions/trillions and thousands of deaths.

the innocent people there who can't escape will be in hell. fuck the taliban. they ain't fooling anyone.

this is an embarrassment not only for the US but the UK, canada, germany, italy, australia, new zealand, etc

A sobering reality check that the war machine fuels the American economy. I give it 24 months before another major conflict arises to fuel the stagnating economy.

 

[infinitys_7th]

I can’t really disagree with any of that except: from everything I understand about the Obama years, Biden was against the troop surges and had realized what a mistake it all was by 2010. There’s even a letter he sent to Obama expressing as much. But you’re right, he owns his vote as a senator along with the rest

That's the thing - I remember how everyone acted back then. I used to be a neocon back in HS/college and listened to all the Republican talk shows, and I remember how the surge was used by both parties. Hannity and the like used to say "If you don't support the president, you don't support the troops" while Bush was in office (particularly with regards to the surge), then pretended that there was a constant threat of Obama withdrawing troops during the 2008 election and afterwards. Democrats pretended that being against the surge was being "anti-war" when they continued to vote for general funding for the war and nation-building. They also did nothing to end the Bush wars once they had the White House for 8 years after getting in partly on the promise that they would end the wars (the recession being the other part).

And, again, Biden was promoted as being a moderating influence, even mentor, on Obama during the 2008 election, and Obama's policies definitely moderated/diminished/attenuated/(however you want to put it) from what he promised. I don't buy that was because of Biden, of course, but that was the narrative. So Biden can say he was against it in 2010, but the administration he was supposed to be a powerful force in did nothing for 6 years after he did. It's as empty as all the rhetoric I've heard from both parties' establishments about the wars for 20 years has been.

 

[CGiRanger]

That's the thing - I remember how everyone acted back then. I used to be a neocon back in HS/college and listened to all the Republican talk shows, and I remember how the surge was used by both parties. Hannity and the like used to say "If you don't support the president, you don't support the troops" while Bush was in office (particularly with regards to the surge), then pretended that there was a constant threat of Obama withdrawing troops during the 2008 election and afterwards. Democrats pretended that being against the surge was being "anti-war" when they continued to vote for general funding for the war and nation-building. They also did nothing to end the Bush wars once they had the White House for 8 years after getting in partly on the promise that they would end the wars (the recession being the other part).

And, again, Biden was promoted as being a moderating influence, even mentor, on Obama during the 2008 election, and Obama's policies definitely moderated/diminished/attenuated/(however you want to put it) from what he promised. I don't buy that was because of Biden, of course, but that was the narrative. So Biden can say he was against it in 2010, but the administration he was supposed to be a powerful force in did nothing for 6 years after he did. It's as empty as all the rhetoric I've heard from both parties' establishments about the wars for 20 years has been.

And remember how much they stonewalled Trump on trying to leave? There were those leaked "rumors" of "Russian Bounties" that were likely done by the Military/Intelligence agencies that were used by congresspeople to thwart any legislation to assist in the process. And of course you had reports of Military deliberately lying to Trump about troop numbers and such, which somehow they were able to totally escape scrutiny for. Because Orange Man Bad I guess.

 

[Thaedolus]

fuck

 

[EviLore]

 

[Sybrix]

Videos on Twitter show at least 100 dead

Idiotic situation, the enemy has now taken over and the other enemy attacking the retreat.

Biden either needs to send in a full ground assault to secure the airport or get the fuck out of there in the next 24 hours

Biden a few days ago - ' If US troops are attacked, there will be swift and devastating response'

 

[CGiRanger]

Videos on Twitter show at least 100 dead

Idiotic situation, the enemy has now taken over and the other enemy attacking the retreat.

Biden either needs to send in a full ground assault to secure the airport or get the fuck out of there in the next 24 hours

Biden a few days ago - ' If us troops are attacked, there will be swift and devastating response'

And then you have asshole Military Industrial Complex reps being interviewed by the "mainstream media" (HR McMaster this time) calling for more war in reponse...

The media is totally in bed with them.

 

[FunkMiller]

fuck

Seriously, bang up fucking job all round on this one.

 

[CGiRanger]

Grennel is right here, and again, fuck others like HR McMaster who were in charge of this debacle for YEARS, people like him should be dragged before congress to answer for this (of course it won't happen)



EDIT: And Greenwald here is spot on about the Deep State goons like McMaster

 

[betrayal]

Biden a few days ago - ' If US troops are attacked, there will be swift and devastating response'

The attacks were carried out by the Islamic State, who are enemies of the Taliban. The Taliban will find this just as shitty as the rest of the world. Biden, or anyone else, can do nothing at all here.

 

[Sybrix]

Biden, or anyone else, can do nothing at all here.

The mightiest military in the world can do nothing....... a shocking indictment of the last 20 years

 

[FunkMiller]

The attacks were carried out by the Islamic State, who are enemies of the Taliban. The Taliban will find this just as shitty as the rest of the world. Biden, or anyone else, can do nothing at all here.

Yep. The bunch of backwards head choppers really hate the other bunch of backwards head choppers.

 

[BouncyFrag]

 

[FunkMiller]

Dozens dead. Including little kids.

Every single American politician who has been part of the invasion and withdrawal of Afghanistan should hang their fucking heads in shame.

 

[Halo is Back]

I don't think anyone outside of the states views US foreign policy as anything than utter hilarity, it's so blatantly obvious that the country is run by incompetent arseholes serving a very rich elite and you guys have to pay for it with your lives and leave the places you bring "Freedom" too in utter ruin, yeah I know China / Russia bad but fuck me I've yet to see China and Russia mobilize and occupy foreign nations like the yanks do bringing untold misery to the local populace and all for what? You've pretty much left all the gear necessary for the Taliban to secure and hold onto power... Well done lads, so whose next? Those American shareholders need to buy new Gulfstream jets...

Russia also occupied Afghanistan in the 80s, they suffered their own "Vietnam" and as a result, they lost the war and thus USSR crumbled. Also, look up the Ukraine famine.

 

[Atrus]

RIP Afghans and soldiers who died in the blast.

There really needs to be an inquiry as to how this got so bad in such a short time and how the ‘Intelligence’ community got it so wrong.

 

[CGiRanger]

Damn. Number went up

 

[pramod]

Damn. Number went up

Holy shit. The suicide bomber must have walked right up to the troops pretending to be one of the refugees.

I don't even know how you defend against that or in the future. Sounds to me this is the end of the "evacuations".

 

[haxan7]

I watched a video of the aftermath. Words don't really do that kind of thing justice. They should just show that shit uncensored on the US news so people wake the fuck up to what evil in this world really is.

 

[dcll]

The gender minister of Canada is reaching out to her brothers the Taliban for getting safe passage for everyone

 

[Lukaku's First Touch]

Fucking sad. Well done Biden.

 

[ntropy]

abandoning Bagram was the critical mistake
and why didn't Biden communicate with NATO allies?

 

[FunkMiller]

US service death toll now above 10. Likely to rise much more.

Make no mistake, the botched withdrawal of Afghanistan is now the single biggest stain on American foreign policy decision making for decades.

 

[CGiRanger]

abandoning Bagram was the critical mistake
and why didn't Biden communicate with NATO allies?

Exactly. Again, my issue with this administrations disastrous handling of this, is NOT the decision to LEAVE (as has been stated over and over again, 20 years is way too long and overdue, and this should have happened long ago) and fuck any gaslighter who tries to spin criticism of this withdrawal as criticism to leave.

My issues are the lack of the supposed "transparency" this administration promised. The weasely and wishy-washy way they would phrase statements and trying to pretend that everything was going as smooth as possible all the way up until things went to hell. Then the lack of any leadership by the President or any strength on display at all. And the worst decisions to abandon military-grade hardware with no plans for destroying it at all even after things went bad and the Afghan army and President jumped ship.

The fact that no contingency was in place for this is already an indictment of the people in charge. No one made a suggestion "destroy our weapons and hardware in the event of a government collapse?". Considering intelligence over the years kept indicating that the Afghan army was incompetent and the government couldn't stand without US Support, it's negligent it wasn't considered, and criminal if it was deliberately overlooked.

I agree with Biden when he said there was likely no way to do this without some kind of a "mess" occurring. Even after we left, I'm sure the US would take a lot of media blame for the conditions in Afghanistan deteriorating and the Taliban's eventual takeover since again the Afghani Army was overall incompetent and the Government was not legit in many eyes (as noted before, governing Afghanistan as it exists as a country today seems to be impossible no matter what). But what's happening now is freaking worst-case scenarios.

 

[Thaedolus]

I can't imagine US commercial airlines are going to keep sending planes in there at this point.

 

[Halo is Back]

Damn. Number went up

This is getting crazy, completely unnaceptable.

 

[CGiRanger]

Again the lack of leadership. As of now no word from the President, Vice President, or any other direct Senior Official.

 

[BouncyFrag]

Pentagon giving press conference now on news

 

[infinitys_7th]

RIP Afghans and soldiers who died in the blast.

There really needs to be an inquiry as to how this got so bad in such a short time and how the ‘Intelligence’ community got it so wrong.

I'm afraid all its going to be used for is to try to go back there. That seems to be the drumbeat of the media.

Exactly. Again, my issue with this administrations disastrous handling of this, is NOT the decision to LEAVE (as has been stated over and over again, 20 years is way too long and overdue, and this should have happened long ago) and fuck any gaslighter who tries to spin criticism of this withdrawal as criticism to leave.

My issues are the lack of the supposed "transparency" this administration promised. The weasely and wishy-washy way they would phrase statements and trying to pretend that everything was going as smooth as possible all the way up until things went to hell. Then the lack of any leadership by the President or any strength on display at all. And the worst decisions to abandon military-grade hardware with no plans for destroying it at all even after things went bad and the Afghan army and President jumped ship.

The fact that no contingency was in place for this is already an indictment of the people in charge. No one made a suggestion "destroy our weapons and hardware in the event of a government collapse?". Considering intelligence over the years kept indicating that the Afghan army was incompetent and the government couldn't stand without US Support, it's negligent it wasn't considered, and criminal if it was deliberately overlooked.

I agree with Biden when he said there was likely no way to do this without some kind of a "mess" occurring. Even after we left, I'm sure the US would take a lot of media blame for the conditions in Afghanistan deteriorating and the Taliban's eventual takeover since again the Afghani Army was overall incompetent and the Government was not legit in many eyes (as noted before, governing Afghanistan as it exists as a country today seems to be impossible no matter what). But what's happening now is freaking worst-case scenarios.

These hard decisions are like taking off a bandaid - you can do it slowly and carefully to avoid as much pain as possible, or you can pull it off quickly under your control, or you can hand the pulled-up part over to the local sadist to rip off at his whim. It looks like the US choose the last option.

We could have controlled the situation, especially with all the time the delays provided, but we stalled until the Taliban built up enough of a coalition to steamroll the country. And the stalling (particularly wanting to "officially" leave on 9/11/21, which was distasteful then and far worse now) was so arbitrary, with a long wait after inauguration to even announce delaying withdrawal past the May deadline.

I can't imagine US commercial airlines are going to keep sending planes in there at this point.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Those liners (and potential passengers) that got donated to the evacuation effort are not going to be risked now. If ISIS can get in the gates, it won't be long before they get on a plane and hijack/crash it.

 

[Dark Star]

Fucking sad. Well done Biden.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Jesus Christ. What a fucking nightmare.

 

[haxan7]

This is depressing as hell. Only a garbage administration would allow this to happen. We used to wake up to America winning, now we wake up to Americans getting blown up by the Taliban.

Great work.

 

[DeepBreath87]

This is depressing as hell. Only a garbage administration would allow this to happen. We used to wake up to America winning, now we wake up to Americans getting blown up by the Taliban.

Great work.

It’s like we’ve gone back in time to 2006.

 

[Punished Miku]

Tragic, but this is the kind of thing that has been happening in Iraq and Afghanistan since these two wars started.

The entire media pushing for mass evacuations literally asked for them to take thousands and thousands and thousands of people from a warzone. It was clearly a huge security risk for everyone involved. There's not really a way to fill up planes with tens of thousands of people and not be vulnerable to a suicide bomber.

Still think that Biden did the right thing 100%, and that ending the war is one of the most courageous acts we'll see from the executive branch in my lifetime. I think if you read between the lines, he is being hung out to dry by everyone that's pro-war. I have doubts that Trump would have even followed through with the withdrawal based on his previous waffling, and statements from his staff that are saying they never intended to follow through. The military clearly didn't plan any logistics of withdrawal effectively, they lied to leadership and the US population about the training of the Afghan army for 20 years and that got us to this point.

If anything had improved over the last 20 years, this wouldn't be happening. But instead what happened is that we were all fed very obvious lies. All you're seeing now is the reality of how it's been all along. The only thing that's changed is that the Taliban got 20 years of experience fighting the best military in the world, and then got billions of dollars in free bases, weapons, and intel.

 

[Star-Lord]

Members of the US military have been killed and there are "many Afghan casualties" following two explosions near Kabul airport on Thursday. The two blasts hit Abbey Gate at the airport and near the Baron Hotel, where the UK has been processing Britons and Afghans eligible for evacuation.

It is unclear exactly how many people were hurt in the attacks in Afghanistan, US defence spokesman John Kirby said there were an "unknown number of casualties". Two unnamed US officials said at least 12 troops had been killed, and warned the number would grow.

Afghanistan: Biden vows to make ISIS-K 'pay' for Kabul airport suicide attacks | ITV News

At least 90 people were killed in the attacks, among them 60 Afghans and 13 US military personnel. Many more were injured. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

Christ.

 

[Apocryphon]

RT reporting a 3rd explosion now.

 

[Apocryphon]

Dozens dead. Including little kids.

Every single American politician who has been part of the invasion and withdrawal of Afghanistan should hang their fucking heads in shame.

Maybe they should just hang.