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Huge XS ep2 review (or 'how we flunked game design school') spoiler-free

WarPig

Member
Cloudy said:
Don't fret, Xenofans. They all said ep 1 sucked as well :p

And damn if they weren't right.

I'll echo the general complaints about Hosoe's tunes, by the way. Comparing the dungeon tunes with H-game BGM is entirely apt -- I was thinking the same thing myself this weekend.

DFS.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
As for Kajiura, yes I too LOVE the samples on the site and my Soundtrack CD is on pre-order too, but they just fail to work in the game context 90% of the time. Not powerful enough for the scene or sometimes just plain wrong for the scene.

I think I can see this as well...

I've viewed a number of cutscenes already, and noticed that the music was very quiet and "in the background". It really didn't seem to make any kind of impact on the scenes, which is quite disappointing. However, a couple of the samples are composed of songs which were present during those scenes that I DID see...and I enjoyed them a lot on their own.

So, I'm still looking forward to the upcoming soundtrack...just disappointed that it doesn't work with the game.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
What I dont get is....after so many people complained about the length of Ep1, they actually make Ep 2 shorter?

Are they going for a .hack formula or something? :/
 

Bebpo

Banned
Ok, just woke up (the joys of sleeping at 9am ^^;; ) Going to try to field the questions:

Mashing wrote
Hmm, so would you say Baten Kaitos is the better of the two Monolift Soft rpgs this year?

I hope atleast one of them is good... I like EP1 and Xenogears is one of my favorite games so it pains me to hear EP2 is so horrible

Baten Kaitos is better than XS ep2 in every way. My only complaints with Baten Kaitos is that it's seems like it will be an epic great story at the beginning but eventually becomes a pretty generic 16bit era rpg story with generic characters. That might seem like a big complaint, but the battle system in BK is really really good. The environments are great and gorgeous, and the music is fantastic. It's also a good sized 50-60 hour rpg. The game is a tad easy, but otherwise if you can live with a pretty normal story (Which still has some good events) you'll have a really enjoyable rpg. To me BK was an 8.9 game and far above XSep2 IMO.

Dark10x wrote
I assume the dialog is at about the same level as Xenosaga Ep1, yes? I will be in Japan by the time the US version is released, so I'd have to import in order to play it in English. I can already handle plenty of Japanese games, but XS Episode 1 was not one of those games. However, it will obviously be a LOT cheaper to simply play the Japanese version than it would be to get the US version. Despite your impressions, I do want to play it...

It's pretty playable if you don't mind missing out on the story. The battle system doesn't have too much Japanese in it, and the puzzles are mainly trial and error. But I will say that ep1 & 2 are the most difficult Japanese story-wise I've encountered in import gaming. Lots and lots of huge kanji names and overall a high-level word choice. Though there are summaries already on the internet so you can just check them. Also I do encourage you and everyone to still buy the game and make your own opinion, especially since I want ep3 and to get that a lot of people need to by the game first even if it's not that great :p I think the point of my review is just to get people to lower their expectations ALOT so they won't be as severely dissapointed when they are playing it.

Drinky Crow wrote
Um, isn't that BAD dungeon design? Pretty doesn't make a dungeon good; clever puzzles and smart critical pathing make a dungeon experience entertaining. See: Zelda TOoT and Alundra for good dungeons.

Yeah for the most part you are right. Stuff like that in the dungeon is bad design...but the dungeon does have a lot of good design. Most of the puzzles are pretty fun and require a little thinking and the actual environments you go through are huge and greatly detailed. Also they are nice and long usually with several boses which I found very satisfying. So despite the problems with them, I still had the most fun in the game when I was going through giant dungeons for several hours.

Dark10x wrote
What exactly DO you like? :p

I swear, it seems like you purchase RPGs with the sole intention of bashing the hell out of them.

To be fair, I met and have known Duckroll since 2002 when XS ep1 came out as we were both part of Jetfuel's Xenosaga Madness project (the 700+k FAQ at gamefaqs). He's a huge Xeno~ universe fan as were all of us on the project, and really the ones who are the biggest fans of the series are the ones who are disappointed the most due to all the steps backwards. Also besides ToS, I know Duckroll enjoyed Baten Kaitos for the most part, although the story issues disappointed him a lot more than me.

Mairu wrote
Hosoe?

Don't mean to be an ass, just wondering if it's the same person... if so, that's too bad . He has done some amazing arrangements, his track on the ESPGALUDA soundtrack is great.

It really pains me to hear the complaints about the music, Kajiura is such a fantastic composer

Sorry, I wrote the review at ~8am after no sleep so I got a lot of things like names spelled wrong :( Anyhow I'm sure Hosoe can write music, but his style really really does not fit in this game and just is not the sound you want for "rpg town/dungeon".

Dark10x wrote
Well, based on the samples, Xenosaga Ep.2 should be her BEST game soundtrack. The other three games which she has composed for all had soundtracks ranging from bland to almost decent. :p I love most of her work, but she doesn't seem to be geared for game music composing. That being said, the music in the trailers was fantastic and the 1 minute clips on her site were also very good. I don't think I'll be TOO disappointed in her work...

I don't think I can fairly judge Kajiura's works until I get the soundtrack and listen for a few days. Just like how Mitsuda music was handled badly in ep1, Kajiura's is handled even worse in ep2. Basically the music is really quiet in the background and you don't even notice it and then every once and a while it'll come up into the foreground but those times are quite rare :(

Charles wrote
Not much chance that they'll completly rework the game for the US release is there?

Nope, but who knows maybe they do an ep2 directors cut where they rework the battle and skill system, add in a bunch of character development scenes, and speed up the ES mechs and oh include a UMN database.

Speaking of which I forgot two things in my review that I should mention:
--UMN Database is gone. This sucks because like ep1 the game is full of terms left and right, and having a comprehensive database of all of them in ep1 was very helpful and an enjoyable read through. If I had to make a guess, I think they will release an expansion type disc with a database, kinda like how Xenofreaks had a database for ep1. (Btw, the Xenofreaks comic story and the Xenosaga Outer File audio dramas connect to ep2 slightly which is a good thing IMO since I spend $90 on those damn audio dramas :p)

--The way the game handles status effects. You know how in most rpgs you if your character is poisened they have a poisen drop or something to indicate that they are poisened? A sleep indicator/paralyze ect... Anyhow in ep2 they game just puts a white ball above a character with a bad stat effect, or a red ball if it's a majorly bad stat effect. There is no way visually to tell if the white ball over guy B's head means they are poisened or have physical attack down. To do that you must go into the menu and specifically point a item/spell at that character just to figure out what ailment they have. Pretty clumsy design IMO.
 

Mashing

Member
Baten Kaitos is better than XS ep2 in every way. My only complaints with Baten Kaitos is that it's seems like it will be an epic great story at the beginning but eventually becomes a pretty generic 16bit era rpg story with generic characters. That might seem like a big complaint, but the battle system in BK is really really good. The environments are great and gorgeous, and the music is fantastic. It's also a good sized 50-60 hour rpg. The game is a tad easy, but otherwise if you can live with a pretty normal story (Which still has some good events) you'll have a really enjoyable rpg. To me BK was an 8.9 game and far above XSep2 IMO.

Most excellent.... that jumps BK up my most wanted a list a few notches.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
It's pretty playable if you don't mind missing out on the story. The battle system doesn't have too much Japanese in it, and the puzzles are mainly trial and error. But I will say that ep1 & 2 are the most difficult Japanese story-wise I've encountered in import gaming. Lots and lots of huge kanji names and overall a high-level word choice. Though there are summaries already on the internet so you can just check them. Also I do encourage you and everyone to still buy the game and make your own opinion, especially since I want ep3 and to get that a lot of people need to by the game first even if it's not that great :p I think the point of my review is just to get people to lower their expectations ALOT so they won't be as severely dissapointed when they are playing it.

I don't really want to miss the story, though...but it sounds pretty tough. For comparison sake, I was able to understand about 65-75% of the written text in Star Ocean for the SFC. I really haven't played a ton of Japanese RPGs, though. However, if the kanji usage is as high as you say, I might have no choice but to import it from the US (as I still only know about 750 Kanji characters or so). :( Who woulda thought? Importing a game TO Japan rather than from... :p

I don't think I can fairly judge Kajiura's works until I get the soundtrack and listen for a few days. Just like how Mitsuda music was handled badly in ep1, Kajiura's is handled even worse in ep2. Basically the music is really quiet in the background and you don't even notice it and then every once and a while it'll come up into the foreground but those times are quite rare

Eh, that really does suck. As noted above, I got that impression from the few cutscenes I've watched...

What is it with Monolith and music usage? I've heard that Baten Kaitos doesn't even put Sakuraba's fantastic score to great use (lots of repetition).
 

Bebpo

Banned
dark10x said:
I don't really want to miss the story, though...but it sounds pretty tough. For comparison sake, I was able to understand about 65-75% of the written text in Star Ocean for the SFC. I really haven't played a ton of Japanese RPGs, though. However, if the kanji usage is as high as you say, I might have no choice but to import it from the US (as I still only know about 750 Kanji characters or so). :( Who woulda thought? Importing a game TO Japan rather than from... :p

Well if you still want to get the Japanese version, I have an extra sealed Asian version of ep2 (long story short, my order at NCSX shipped before I could cancel it as I had driven to an import store in LA and bought it the day before). I'm willing to sell it for pretty cheap since I don't really see the point in owning 2 asian versions of a game I didn't even like that much.

PM me if you're interested.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Bebpo said:
Well if you still want to get the Japanese version, I have an extra sealed Asian version of ep2 (long story short, my order at NCSX shipped before I could cancel it as I had driven to an import store in LA and bought it the day before). I'm willing to sell it for pretty cheap since I don't really see the point in owning 2 asian versions of a game I didn't even like that much.

PM me if you're interested.

Well, that's a mighty fine offer...but I don't have a Japanese PS2 yet, so I can't actually use it. >_<

Perhaps I'll still consider, though...we'll see. :p
 

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
The mini games in Ep1 was probably the best thing about it. Thanks for the write up Bebpo, looks like I'll definately be picking this up when it goes budget price, if I still have any interest in the game
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Wario64 said:
The mini games in Ep1 was probably the best thing about it. Thanks for the write up Bebpo, looks like I'll definately be picking this up when it goes budget price, if I still have any interest in the game

Dude, you do realize what you posted in a DRIV3R thread right?

And they're expecting this game to sell 10 million copies world wide. I can't wait to pick it up for $10 next month
 

duckroll

Member
Finally finished the game. And whoa, the ending sequences were COOL. Definitely a good thing for Xenosaga fans. The entire game is still pretty damn terrible and broken but at least those playing now can look forward to the light at the end of the very dark tunnel.

Based on the foreshadowing in the epilogue and the direction things are going now, can't wait for Ep3! But first they need to FIRE the current director. >_<
 
duckroll said:
Based on the foreshadowing in the epilogue and the direction things are going now, can't wait for Ep3!

Episode III is going to be a ZOMBIE SLASHER FLICK starring UNDEAD KOS-MOS!

XENO-BOX_13.JPG
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
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Another complaint about loading problems...

I suppose that it really is a problem with the game itself considering everybody who has played it has those problems (and Gamespot's videos showed them as well). :\

I was thinking that it might be related to the system being used. For example, on my older PS2, MGS2-Substance (DVD9 as well) would often pause very badly between scenes and codec screens. You would even see a spinning disc icon that was NOT normal. Xenosaga also would only load 50% of the time. However, I haven't seen a single person say that the battles begin without skipping like that...

If that doesn't scream UNPOLISHED, I don't know what does...

Does Episode 2 support loading to the HD like the original did (well, I believe it did anyways)?
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
DeadStar said:

Thats odd, why take out the HDD support for the second game? Correct me if I'm wrong but the original Japanese release of Episode 1 was on 2 discs, right? And since everyone is saying that Episode 2 is much shorter, I'm guessing it is only on 1 disc this time around. So maybe Namco didn't think they needed to add in HDD support this time around...but I still find the whole thing very odd.

Thanks a lot for the impressions, great read. I'm one of those people that actually liked Episode 1 to death. I saw the problems and the simplicity in the gameplay but still ate it up for the story presentation. Hopefully I'll be able to find something to like in Episode 2 as well.

The only thing that is really scaring me off is the length, I found Episode 1 to be very easy and I'm not one of those people that breezes through rpgs. Something about the battle systems and boss battles just clicked with me and I never really ran into a problem throughout the whole game. I know I would be very pissed if I beat Episode 2 in less than 24 hours, thats just not a full rpg experience these days.
 

duckroll

Member
Grizzlyjin said:
Thats odd, why take out the HDD support for the second game? Correct me if I'm wrong but the original Japanese release of Episode 1 was on 2 discs, right? And since everyone is saying that Episode 2 is much shorter, I'm guessing it is only on 1 disc this time around. So maybe Namco didn't think they needed to add in HDD support this time around...but I still find the whole thing very odd.

Wrong. Ep1 was on 1 dual-layer DVD. Ep2 is on 2 single-layer DVDs.

As for why.... why is a great way to start many sentences about XS Ep2. Like...

Why:

is there no money?
are there no character equipment?
are there no minigames?
is there no UMN database?
are there less cutscenes?
are there no techs?
is there no Ether tree?
is the battle system retarded?
are all the new secondary characters pointless?
are all the new secondary characters undeveloped?
is there no explaination on Anima relics beyond 1 line?
is there no further story on the Gnosis?
is there nothing further on the Zohar Emulators?
are most of the bosses non-plot related nonsense that just appear?

I could go on and on and on. XS Ep2 is the very incarnation of the word WHY.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
duckroll said:
Wrong. Ep1 was on 1 dual-layer DVD. Ep2 is on 2 single-layer DVDs.

As for why.... why is a great way to start many sentences about XS Ep2. Like...

Why:

is there no money?
are there no character equipment?
are there no minigames?
is there no UMN database?
are there less cutscenes?
are there no techs?
is there no Ether tree?
is the battle system retarded?
are all the new secondary characters pointless?
are all the new secondary characters undeveloped?
is there no explaination on Anima relics beyond 1 line?
is there no further story on the Gnosis?
is there nothing further on the Zohar Emulators?
are most of the bosses non-plot related nonsense that just appear?

I could go on and on and on. XS Ep2 is the very incarnation of the word WHY.


Good lord, that sounds flat out awful. Very disappointing to hear...

It seems as though their "grand scheme" to release 6 episodes is NOT panning out very well. People want them to create each new game fairly quickly, but they do not seem capable of delivering quality in such little time...
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
duckroll said:
Wrong. Ep1 was on 1 dual-layer DVD. Ep2 is on 2 single-layer DVDs.

As for why.... why is a great way to start many sentences about XS Ep2. Like...

Why:

is there no money?
are there no character equipment?
are there no minigames?
is there no UMN database?
are there less cutscenes?
are there no techs?
is there no Ether tree?
is the battle system retarded?
are all the new secondary characters pointless?
are all the new secondary characters undeveloped?
is there no explaination on Anima relics beyond 1 line?
is there no further story on the Gnosis?
is there nothing further on the Zohar Emulators?
are most of the bosses non-plot related nonsense that just appear?

I could go on and on and on. XS Ep2 is the very incarnation of the word WHY.

Your scaring me, please stop. No UMN database? Less cutscenes? No Ether Tree? No Gnosis? God, that does sound like crap. If even half of what you are saying is true, I'm not even going to want the game anymore. Those are the things I liked about Episode 1...


So they they took out Xenocards? I loved that game. :(

Why Monolith, Why!!??
 
It seems as though their "grand scheme" to release 6 episodes is NOT panning out very well. People want them to create each new game fairly quickly, but they do not seem capable of delivering quality in such little time...

There was a 2 1/3 year interval between XSepI and epII, so that's not really such little time. They were working on Baten Kaitos at the same time, though, and possibly epIII overlapped as well. So the problem might not be so much lack of time per se as having to divide the staff between two or more games, unless they've hired enough new people to make up the difference. I've also heard that there was a lot of interference from Namco management this time, and tension between them and the developers, which is supposedly why Mitsuda left and Takahashi semi-left.
 

WarPig

Member
I've heard it on fairly good authority that Episode II had a much smaller budget than the first game. Would explain why they didn't shell out for the orchestra this time ^_^

DFS.
 
Damn, this is some sad news for Xeno fans. The trailers made the cutscenes at least look all kinds of awesome. Disappointing to hear it sucks.
 
Blech, I loved Xenogears and Xenosaga. Sounds like Monolith really shit the bed with Episode 2. I will still be getting the game, but my expectations just took a major drop. How can there be no character equipment or money? That makes so little sense...

Does completing the side campaign things win you items or anything?

Hopefully the US version will have better loading or something, because that sounds terrible. Maybe the HDLoader will help.
 

Bebpo

Banned
Raise Havok said:
Does completing the side campaign things win you items or anything?

Yeah, by completing each mission type thing in the side-campaign you win all kinds of items, skills, decoder keys, duel-techs.
 

kiryogi

Banned
Woohoo, as much Saga2 sucks, I actually got the bonus dvd with with. Makes me wonder how many preorders NCSX had.. I placed mine in may. o_O
 

Bebpo

Banned
kiryogi said:
Woohoo, as much Saga2 sucks, I actually got the bonus dvd with with. Makes me wonder how many preorders NCSX had.. I placed mine in may. o_O

Yeah I got the bonus dvd from NCSX also. At first I was wondering why it wouldn't play in my Jpn PS2 and then I realized it was a region 3 dvd :\ Hmm, I didn't even know they did the pre-order bonus for the asian version.
 

kiryogi

Banned
Me? Nah, I have a regionless DVD player. It's just a minor thing, on another note, the bonus dvd rocks. Namco would just release this seperately for sale, with a few more cutscenes. :D
 

ferricide

Member
JackFrost2012 said:
Famitsu indicted in pay-to-review scandal; no one is surprised.
it's not like you have to pay famitsu. they rate based on Other Factors than playing the games. like, how big the title is, how popular the series is, and how much it reawakens their childhood memories of playing DraQue.
 
ferricide said:
it's not like you have to pay famitsu. they rate based on Other Factors than playing the games. like, how big the title is, how popular the series is, and how much it reawakens their childhood memories of playing DraQue.

You forgot cover art! I heard that they sometimes even read the back of the box, to make sure gamers get the "whole story."
 

Tabris

Member
Okay, game design, graphics, and music aside.

If you just completly forgot about those, and only rated it just by the story, dialog and characters. How would you rate it?

and compare that both to Xenosaga and Xenogears

...and before anyone but people who've played Episode II chime in, I don't care to hear your opinion :p
 

Tabris

Member
and also a seperate question, this one may be tricky.

Without spoiling anything, do you think it's leading closer to Xenogears (Episode V) or further? (knowing that so far we only got Zohar being harnessed and Abel making contact done in Episode I, and knowing we still need Deus being created to happen).

Once again, without spoiling, further or closer is all I need to know.

Thanks for very much for your answers :)
 

Bebpo

Banned
The story is alright. There is a lot of good scenes, but the story is pretty rushed and short. All the good stuff is saved for the ending ^^;;

Compared to XG it's definitely a weaker story and you really can't even compare them due to length issues. Compared to XS ep1 it's a weaker story just because so many characters were introduced and developed in ep1 and lots of story points and questions were brought up. Ep2 just continues the line of bringing up more questions for ep3 and answering few, but as I keep mentioning it's pretty short. If you think of it like a movie, ep1 is the start, ep2 is the middle which is just setting up for the finale, and ep3 will be where everything happens hopefully. So you can see how ep2 would be the weakest if not done properly.

Is it closer to XG? Yea maybe. On one hand the main story is moving far far far away from XG, but it may be going so far away from the XG perfect works as to trick you into thinking it's not following it and then voila it may end up doing it after all. The ending cutscenes in particular when pulled into pieces seem like the series may be heading into XG territory. But for now it's certainly not.
 

kiryogi

Banned
A guess theres a small bit of light for you folks that still believe, check out some other impressions on gamefaqs. I'm still waiting to get my import PS2 before giving it a whirl :/


edit: or they could be smoking crack, but hey, YOU GOTTA BELIEVE right? :p
 

Tabris

Member
See, now that's an opinion I can trust. I'll still obviousely give it my own run through.

So it's kind of like The Two Towers (movie) of the Xenosaga trilogy. (I know 3rd one ends the Shion/Kos-Mos arc) It's going to disappoint some of the fans, but that's cause the creator is saving all the good stuff for the last one?

and before you go off on me for comparing lotr with xenosaga, it was the only trilogy I could think of where it worked like that, so live with my analogy :p
 

duckroll

Member
Tabris said:
(knowing that so far we only got Zohar being harnessed and Adam making contact done in Episode I, and knowing we still need Deus being created to happen).

I dunno, did you play a different Ep1 from me? Cause those things sure as hell didn't happen in Ep1. :p
 

Tabris

Member
duckroll said:
I dunno, did you play a different Ep1 from me? Cause those things sure as hell didn't happen in Ep1. :p

Yes, they did.

The Zophar was harnessed and the emulators were made. God (the "existence") was stripped from Heaven (through the path of sephirot) and manifested (through the Zohar, and thus linked to all the emulators (one of which will be linked to Deus)). Also, Abel has made contact with the Zohar. (Abel shown at the end)

All that needs to take place is for Deus to be created (which may already have happened before Xenosaga Episode I took place and may be explained in another, there's several scenes and conversation that could back up this theory), humanity to realize it's error and attempt to contain him, then for him to eventually break loose (in the Eldridge) over the planet Xenogears will take place under.
 
then for him to eventually break loose (in the Eldridge) over the planet Xenogears will take place under.

Seems unlikely they'd shift the focus to one backwater planet after giving us a grand space opera setting for however many episodes. It wouldn't seem to make much dramatic sense. But what do I know?
 
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