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[Primethius]

Thanks a lot, man. Really good ideas here. To be honest, I have wondered if I'm packing too much in this game. Indeed, as if a 530 sq. miles map isn't enough, there are almost too much to do too. However, I was thinking, what if the player was given a lot of freedom? The game won't tell you how to play the game, you just learn and decide how you want to spend the day. And of course, a stamina system would completely ruin the game, so I never thought about putting it in.


I don't disagree, but as I said, I wanted to keep the OP short and simple. Also, this is my first time laying out my ideas, so pardon my lack of experience.

The problem with allowing the player the freedom as to what to do presents a game design issue is that you can have so much to do, but what if none of it is deep enough to keep the player playing? I hate Skyrim. It's a bore. But it gives the player a lot of freedom. But it's all so simplistic and poorly designed.

That's why you need some sort of core gameplay loop that constrains the player. You probably need to figure that out so you can start narrowing down the feature list to the stuff that would actually make sense to work on.

Harvest Moon constrains the player via the stamina system. Persona constrains the player via the schedule.

These constraints force user's to make choices and having to choose between three deep mechanical subsystems to partake in (farming/hunting/exploration for example) will be much more rewarding and fun then being able to dabble in a several dozen simplistic sub-systems.

 

[thomasmahler]

Please elaborate. I never claimed to be a professional game developer or anything, no idea why you have to be a dick. You can leave constructive criticism and I more than welcome that. If you're just going to go "you're doing it all wrong", you're not helping anyone.

Also, I'm not sure why you expected a prototype from me. I am NOT developing this game. The reason this thread was made is to discuss the concept of it.

Wasn't trying to be a dick, I just don't think it's cool to write in a gaming forum like GAF where you btw have plenty of gays that you think gay marriage is 'weird'.

And if you don't plan on making anything based on that idea, then what do you expect people to say about it? Holy shit, you're a genius, cause you made a list of arbitrary things? Nobody will have an image or an experience in their heads based on what you put down here, since it's far too ambiguous, that's why asking people at this point whether they have any criticism makes no sense yet.

As an analogy, imagine me asking you this: I'm thinking of a woman, she's brunette, her name is Lisa. Do you think Lisa is attractive?

You can't possibly know. It's all too vague and you need more details to really be able to form an image in your head. And remember that ideas are cheap, everyone has a gazillion of them and nobody will ever care at all about the ideas you have. If you wanna make it in the games industry, you have to become a person who can execute upon those ideas. You always lead by example.

 

[archangelmorph]

Some critique from an ex-game dev (myself)...

- Why have 10 character presents? Why not have a custom creator with composable personality/profile attributes to automatically define the character's overall backstory? That way it's more dynamic and also you can use discrete [combinations of] said attributes to influence aspects of the game's narrative (kind of an evolution of what Morrowind did)

- You have way too many gameplay systems in-place here. It sounds nice from a pie-in-the-sky, "wouldn't it be great if..." gamer POV, but practically speaking, you'd need a full blown Skynet to playtest and balance all those gameplay systems and make them work well enough together to provide sufficient value to the player. When designing gameplay systems you shouldn't think about them in isolation, but in how you expect them to interrelate with the rest of the game, both in terms of the narrative (i.e. thematic cohesion) as well as the core gameplay loop (e.g. entry criteria, dependencies, rewards that tie into other gameplay systems etc). If you have too many side-systems that are too far away from the main bread-and-butter play, you can pretty much expect most players just won't engage with them at all, which would have been a colossal waste of your dev resources.

- It's not particularly clear here what your core gameplay loop is? You have lots of listed mechanics but no detail on the core play drivers, what the character is there to do in the world? What their purpose or raison d'être is. This is super important to understand right out the gate, because without it, players will quickly lose interest in play due to a lack of motivators. For example, you have all this land, and all these creatures.. Why should the player explore the world? What's driving them to travel such long distances? Why visit all these towns and villages? Why would they want to get married? Why would they even want/need to fight the dinosaurs? They can have a part-time job? what do they need money for?

- Be careful with economic balance, the fact that you've listed so many systems leads me to believe you haven't thought through enough, the concept of value in the world and how it relates to them. You can have a part-time job? so there's a currency. Why is it valuable? what can you do with it? How scarce is it to obtain? Are there any other assets (items, equipment, weapons, mounts etc...) in the game that maintain a sense of intrinsic [or otherwise] value*? Are they fungible? Are the inter-tradable? How are they inter-tradable? What have you done to ensure your designs around the fungibility and tradability of assets of value in the world balance out economically? This is a very hard and complicated area to work through in terms of design, and if you don't think through it properly, you can easily end up with broken gameplay, which will ruin it for the majority of players. It's better to start very small, with one or two core resources, then plan and scale them out accordingly. If you need more then having several micro-economies in the game world, that directly tie one or two assets of value exclusively with a subset of gameplay and narrative systems, maybe much easier to define, measure, predict and balance at the end of the day. Then, to build more complexity (only if you *really* need to, and have the resources to test and balance), you have well-defined points of exchange between those micro-economies, whose parameters are easy to tweak and control. Ultimately though, you need to think in terms of value, what's valuable to the player, why do they care, why would they want to obtain it and why would they want to sell/consume/exchange it etc.

*By asset of value, it could be something discrete like a wolf pelt or a category of items like several different kinds of animal pelts, obtainable in the game by hunting, and maintaining consistent behavioural properties and constraints.

- I hope by "form hunting parties" you're not talking about incorporating MP


Good luck with iterating on this though and fine tuning your designs. It's always nice to see enthusiasts challenging themselves to learn how to design and think about game construction and form. I take it you'd like to get into the field professionally one day?

 

[Javin98]

The problem with allowing the player the freedom as to what to do presents a game design issue is that you can have so much to do, but what if none of it is deep enough to keep the player playing? I hate Skyrim. It's a bore. But it gives the player a lot of freedom. But it's all so simplistic and poorly designed.

That's why you need some sort of core gameplay loop that constrains the player. You probably need to figure that out so you can start narrowing down the feature list to the stuff that would actually make sense to work on.

Harvest Moon constrains the player via the stamina system. Persona constrains the player via the schedule.

These constraints force user's to make choices and having to choose between three deep mechanical subsystems to partake in (farming/hunting/exploration for example) will be much more rewarding and fun then being able to dabble in a several dozen simplistic sub-systems.

Ah, I definitely get where you're going now. Thanks again, I'll give it some thought. If I were to axe a feature, it would be farming, most likely. I'm pretty sure most would find farming a chore anyway.

Wasn't trying to be a dick, I just don't think it's cool to write in a gaming forum like GAF where you btw have plenty of gays that you think gay marriage is 'weird'.

And if you don't plan on making anything based on that idea, then what do you expect people to say about it? Holy shit, you're a genius, cause you made a list of arbitrary things? Nobody will have an image or an experience in their heads based on what you put down here, since it's far too ambiguous, that's why asking people at this point whether they have any criticism makes no sense yet.

As an analogy, imagine me asking you this: I'm thinking of a woman, she's brunette, her name is Lisa. Do you think Lisa is attractive?

You can't possibly know. It's all too vague and you need more details to really be able to form an image in your head. And remember that ideas are cheap, everyone has a gazillion of them and nobody will ever care at all about the ideas you have. If you wanna make it in the games industry, you have to become a person who can execute upon those ideas. You always lead by example.

Thank you! Now this is the kind of post I appreciate. Thanks for the "gay" heads up. I'm such an idiot to think that it wouldn't offend some. In any case, I admit, my OP might be a bit bare bones, but we're all free to discuss on what I mean.

 

[Nozem]

-530 sq. miles map

That is oddly specific. Why?

 

[Javin98]

That is oddly specific. Why?

You have no idea how many map sizes I've compared to, so when I finally settled on one, I decided to just write it down.

 

[Llyrwenne]

I think you might be confusing 'ambitious' with 'vague and broad'. This is not how game design works. You don't put a list of 'cool things I just thought up' together and then add random statistics ( this game will have X sidequests / take Y hours to complete ) that are based entirely on nothing.The 'features' you list are all very broad and fairly non-specific. 'Open World RPG' isn't a feature, it's a genre descriptor. There are many kinds of open worlds, many kinds of RPGs, and many kinds of Open World RPGs. What do I do in this open world? How do I navigate this world? Is it truly go-anywhere open or more structured into zones? Why is it that kind of open world and not the other? Why is it an open world in the first place? What do you mean by RPG? What kind of RPG elements does your game have? If there is a skill tree, what exactly would it look like? What would the progression be like? What skills would be on the skill tree? How does one gain experience? Can I create my own character? Do I need to pick base skills? Can I pick any base skill or do I need to pick from a limited pool? Are different areas meant for different levels or does everything level up at the same rate as you? How do you balance the leveling system / make sure it can't be broken? Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. The same goes for all of your other points.

These species of wildlife, how do they interact with one another? How do they interact with the cities? How does the game play in to this 'dynamic ecosystem'? These 15 tribes, what are they? Are they factions I can join? Do they have different philosophies and what are those based on? Why 15? How do these tribes interact with one another? These 'towns of various sizes', what can I do in them? Are they linked to the tribes? If I can buy stuff, what is the in-game economy like? How do you make sure players don't break it? How do the towns interact with the 'dynamic ecosystem'? Are they safe zones? How does the day / night cycle affect the game? Is it purely visual? Do certain things happen at night? This 'complex' dating system, how exactly does it work point by point? This 'simple, yet effective' carfting system, how exactly does it work? Where do I get the materials? How do you prevent the need for material grinding? What can you craft? Can I craft anywhere or do I need a crafting station? Does crafting pause the game? What is the combat system like? Is it turn-based? Real-time? Hybrid? How do I fight some beast? Can I dodge? Are there stun-states? Status effects? How strong are the enemies? What kind of moves do they have? What can I do?This 25 hour long main quest line, what is the story? Who are the characters i will encounter? Are there points of no return where certain things will be no longer accessible after doing a certain mission? What is the mission strucure like? Who is the player character? What is his or her motivation? Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Ad infinitum.

No offense to you personally, but this is not something that I would even call a concept. This is something you think up in a single evening. You have a very, very, very broad list of 'features' and threw in some statistics ( The world is X square miles!, It will have X sidequests! There are X romance options! The story will be X hours long! ) based on nothing. You have given zero detail on how anything would work or look or play. I have absolutely no idea what the mechanics of your game are and what the hook is with which you will pull the player in. It's not really 'ambitious' as much as it is 'broad and vague'.

As of right now, this kind of feels like a game pitch that could've been put together by Donald Trump. "My game will have the best open world. The best. It will have all of the jungle, all of the mountain and all of the ocean. It will be the biggest and best open world you have ever seen, it's that good! And you can do stuff - you can do so much stuff. Hunt, date the most beautiful women, grow things, hunt, and so much more. You'll be able to do all of this stuff, everything you ever could have wanted to do! And there will be towns! and cities! Small, big, it'll have all of them! And they will be the best cities, the best. This game will be tremendous, it will be the most tremendous game you will have ever played in your life. The best. And I'll make Mexico pay for it!"

If you are serious about wanting to expand on this, you will need to spend a lot of time working out what exactly this game would be and how exactly everything would even work. Sketch things out. Write things out. Make some mock-up prototypes of some of the systems you would want to implement. What you present in OP is much too broad, much too vague, and also lacks insight into game development and what is possible on current hardware.

What exactly can I do and why would I do it?
How exactly do I do it and why like that?
How do you prevent me from breaking it?
How will you get this to work?

 

[Javin98]

*snip*

Holy freakballs! Long post, dude!

On a more serious note, this could very well be the best post in this thread. I'm honored to have an ex game dev criticize this. Anyway, I think I wasn't clear enough.

The bachelorettes are not the player character. They are the choices for the player to choose from. Increase your relationship with them and eventually marry them.

I'm well aware that this project could turn out to be a bloated mess. What you and a few others say is true, I'll probably scratch farming off the list. It's probably not worth investing in farming mechanics.

As for the currency, I'm still working on this, but right now, I've decided that currency can be used to purchase higher grade weapons and armour. I'm also deciding if currency can be used for properties and such. I would say it's very similar to the currency in The Witcher 3, for instance.

The hunting party actually consists of AI characters, not real human players. That raises another problem as AI is tough to write. But this is all a concept, so it sounds good in practice to me.

Anyway, yeah, I do plan on finding my place in the industry one day. Thanks again!

 

[Javin98]

*snip*

Another great post. Thanks for the effort! If it hurts me to read that wall of text, it must hurt you even more to write it. I really appreciate the effort, though.

Anyway, to clarify, the OP is meant to be short. Partly because I still have some things to work and balance out, but also to keep it easy to read.

I won't expand on everything as there is simply too much in your post, but I will elaborate on the ecosystem. Think of the past few Far Cry games. They have a fairly simple ecosystem with predators hunting prey and all. Well, imagine it taken to the next step. What if you have all that but further expanded? I would think of it as being part of a National Geographic documentary. You can watch as a Tyrannosaurus ambushes a pack of wooly mammoths for instance. Also, I was thinking that the large theropod dinosaurs could destroy towns and villages and you have the choice to help or ignore. Your choice will affect the game world in the long term.

As for the tribes, they have their own traditions and beliefs with their lifestyle reflecting their living conditions. I'm going to use The Witcher 3 as an example. The smaller tribes are more akin to White Orchard while the largest tribes live like first class citizens in Novigrad.

To add even more, I have not thought up a story because I was thinking of nailing the core mechanics first. 25 hours is merely an estimation or target of how long it could be.

 

[casiopao]

Well, the info you put out there is a bit too broad and you try to incorporate everything into one without any focus which is why i think some feel confused here but let me have a take here.

Lets see here.

Open World Rpg itself is already one huge kind of game where you will need to balance between the battle system(gameplay loop), exploration, and progression through the world.

But suddenly u mention, u wanted bachelorette and farming system in the game which will surely slow your exploration progression as farming will put your character stuck on a single location while dating system is going to make you waste tons of your time wooing the girl you like. (For example, Rune Factory 4 is a game which combined jrpg, dungeon exploring, dating system and farming into one package.)

I would suggest you trimming your idea there. The game maybe huge but it still needs a clear focus.

Xenoblade X for example. The game boast a very huge world. But it had clear focus on how to tackle the world and what you do in that world.

You are exploring that gigantic planet planting probes, looking for relics, ancient artifacts, part of your destroyed space ship and fighting powerful indigents. When you reached halfway, you will be given a mech which will help you progress the story even more and allowed you to reach those unreachable location before. Those mech will also allowed you to defeat all those super powerful monster that would wreck you in one hit before.

This is the gameplay loop you should be focusing first as that is the thing that will give you clear sight on where to progress in the game making progress in future.

 

[Shifty]

Just to add, obviously there are heavy inspirations from other games such as Harvest Moon, The Witcher 3 and Far Cry Primal

I was gonna say. So what you basically want, is 1800s King Kong Far Cry with Crafting and built-in Hearthfire DLC?

Spoiler

I'm aware that's a fairly reductive way of looking at it, but open world/crafting stuff is all blurring together these days.

 

[Silent Chief]

Guns and dinosaurs.

 

[Javin98]

Well, the info you put out there is a bit too broad and you try to incorporate everything into one without any focus which is why i think some feel confused here but let me have a take here.

Lets see here.

Open World Rpg itself is already one huge kind of game where you will need to balance between the battle system(gameplay loop), exploration, and progression through the world.

But suddenly u mention, u wanted bachelorette and farming system in the game which will surely slow your exploration progression as farming will put your character stuck on a single location while dating system is going to make you waste tons of your time wooing the girl you like. (For example, Rune Factory 4 is a game which combined jrpg, dungeon exploring, dating system and farming into one package.)

I would suggest you trimming your idea there. The game maybe huge but it still needs a clear focus.

Xenoblade X for example. The game boast a very huge world. But it had clear focus on how to tackle the world and what you do in that world.

You are exploring that gigantic planet planting probes, looking for relics, ancient artifacts, part of your destroyed space ship and fighting powerful indigents. When you reached halfway, you will be given a mech which will help you progress the story even more and allowed you to reach those unreachable location before. Those mech will also allowed you to defeat all those super powerful monster that would wreck you in one hit before.

This is the gameplay loop you should be focusing first as that is the thing that will give you clear sight on where to progress in the game making progress in future.

Yep, I can clearly see why some are confused and I don't blame them. After the feedback of this thread, I've definitely come to the conclusion that it is a bit too bloated. I think the issue is that I wanted to combine too many aspects from several games into one. I'll probably omit farming and part time jobs to trim the game down. As for the exploration aspect, I could be alone, but I find the idea of just wondering in the wilderness with countless animals tied to a daily basis of killed or be killed to be intriguing.

I was gonna say. So what you basically want, is 1800s Far Cry with Crafting and built-in Hearthfire DLC?

Spoiler

I'm aware that's a fairly reductive way of looking at it, but open world/crafting stuff is all blurring together these days.

Well, Far Cry does have lite RPG elements, but overall it's not an RPG. I think The Witcher 3 with dinosaurs and real world animals would be more apt. Hell, or even Horizon but with fleshy creatures instead. This is somewhat generalizing though.

Guns and dinosaurs.

Ain't got guns in the 1800's, bruh

 

[Llyrwenne]

Another great post. Thanks for the effort! If it hurts me to read that wall of text, it must hurt you even more to write it. I really appreciate the effort, though.

Anyway, to clarify, the OP is meant to be short. Partly because I still have some things to work and balance out, but also to keep it easy to read.

Hey, np. I see you clearly have passion for this and that is greatly appreciated. <3 I would love to help you on the road to more clearly defining your idea through this discussion. That said, I will use this post to drive my point further home as I believe you missed some of the points I was trying to make.

I won't expand on everything as there is simply too much in your post, but I will elaborate on the ecosystem. Think of the past few Far Cry games. They have a fairly simple ecosystem with predators hunting prey and all. Well, imagine it taken to the next step. What if you have all that but further expanded? I would think of it as being part of a National Geographic documentary. You can watch as a Tyrannosaurus ambushes a pack of wooly mammoths for instance. Also, I was thinking that the large theropod dinosaurs could destroy towns and villages and you have the choice to help or ignore. Your choice will affect the game world in the long term.

What if I haven't played Far Cry? That would be a problem, because then I wouldn't know what you meant. If you want to sell your game idea, then describe your idea in your own words. How does your idea work? Don't say 'well, this part is like X, and this part is like Y'. Don't assume people know X or Y. Your pitch for your idea should stand on its own. What is your idea, how does it work, and why is it cool? And again with the broad and vague statements; what specifically do you mean by 'taken to the next step', what do you mean by 'further expanded', what do you mean by 'think of it as a Nat Geo documentary'? Tell me specifically how it would work and avoid vague language like that.The same goes for 'I was thinking... destroy towns' and 'long term consequences'; How would they destroy towns? Are all environments destructible? What effect would this specifically have? If this happens dynamically, how do you prevent all towns from being destroyed before the player even reaches them? How would a player know something is under attack on the other side of the map? Seeing as this is an RPG, what if the beast is simply too strong? Does the player lose the town forever because he or she was not leveled high enough? What exactly do you mean by 'long term consequences'? Etc.

As for the tribes, they have their own traditions and beliefs with their lifestyle reflecting their living conditions. I'm going to use The Witcher 3 as an example. The smaller tribes are more akin to White Orchard while the largest tribes live like first class citizens in Novigrad.

But what are those traditions? How did they come to those traditions? Why are there 15? How do they interact with eachother? How do I interact with them? Are they important to the story? If the towns can be destroyed, can the tribes inhabiting them be too? What if that tribe was important to the story? What if I haven't played The Witcher 3 and still don't understand what you mean? If it's just like another game, what makes your use of it unique or interesting? Etc.

To add even more, I have not thought up a story because I was thinking of nailing the core mechanics first. 25 hours is merely an estimation or target of how long it could be.

So at this point, 'the story is 25 hours long' doesn't mean anything. It's not really based on anything. It doesn't get me excited. It doesn't tell me what your game is about. Perhaps it would be better if you would focus on describing a single gameplay slice, one single scenario instead of trying to broadly and vaguely describe every feature you would want. Describe to us one specific scenario from start to finish. Start with the player in some location, then have them go to a town to accept a quest. Describe the actions the player takes. What do I do, why do I do it, how do I do it, and why like that? Describe specific gameplay interactions. Describe what the environment looks like. How do I navigate through this environment? What do I encounter in this environment and how specifically do I deal with it? If I get in a combat encounter, describe specifically how such an encounter would unfold. How do I know where I need to go? When I arrive at the town, what exactly happens? What actions do I need to undertake to accept a quest from an NPC? How do I know an NPC has a quest? Can I refuse the quest? Can I fail the quest? What is the quest? Does it go into a quest log? Etc. Ad infinitum.

Create several of those gameplay slices - in detail - for yourself. See what works and what doesn't. See what is too big to be applied to the whole game. See what elements are most interesting and iterate on them.

Ain't got guns in the 1800's, bruh

But they did have guns throughout the 1800s though. Things like these are exactly why you can't just throw a broad statement out and assume that everyone will know what you actually mean by it. Be specific. Don't assume people know what you mean. Don't explain by comparing to other games. People may not have played those games. Explain how your idea works, why your idea works like that, and why your idea will be great. Again;

What exactly can I do and why would I do it?
How exactly do I do it and why like that?
How do you prevent me from breaking it?
How will you get this to work?

As I said in my other post; if you want to make this work and if you want it to be taken seriously, you need to put a lot of time in working out the specifics. Sketch, make prototypes if you are able to, write, whatever you can do to bring vague and broad ideas down to specific, concrete elements of your game. Describe slices of gameplay, plan out the workings of the mechanics, find out what your main gameplay hook is, detail the progression, etc. Do that first. When you have a well thought out collection of sketches and prototypes and descriptions and mechanics, then you have something you can share with someone and have it taken somewhat seriously. Right now it feels like you are just expecting everyone to fill in the details themselves and that is not a way to successfully present your idea.

 

[Javin98]

*snip*

Yeah, I don't blame those who are confused by my vague explaination and bullet points. The thing is, though, I have always just imagined this whole project in my head. I never thought about doing sketches and design documents. Hell, the reason I posted this thread was actually to see if others were even interested in the whole concept anyway. Now that I've seen some interest, I might move things further along even though I most likely will never develop this game.

You do raise a lot of questions that I never even thought of and I didn't realize I was using examples of other games excessively. About the tribes, I forgot to elaborate on them in the OP, but I always pictured them as groups of people with different ethnics and economical lifestyles. For instance, one tribe who make their living of hunting animals are nomadic by nature and are typically temperamental. On the other hand, another tribe that trades materials with other tribes are wealthy and live in a massive city. As such, the personalities of the bachelorettes reflect the tribe they come from. I haven't thought of the story, but I've been thinking about rivalry among some of the tribes and it's up to the player character to quell it or pick a side.

As for the large theropods levelling the towns, I think it could work as a randomized event and the player will be notified when checking the bulletin board. This would then work as a side quest. The towns don't have to be fully destructible. Just as long as some random villagers are being tossed around and eaten, I think that will suffice. I have never given the level differences a thought, though, so thanks for that! Anyway, if the player fails, the town and its villagers are desolated. In the grand scheme of things, the bachelorette will be unavailable and the tribe won't be involved in the main story line, in which they could be helpful or enemies.

The 'dynamic ecosystem' bit is probably the most complicated and ambitious part, though. I always wanted a game where the animals react realistically like they would in the wild. I will describe another example to try and re-illustrate my point. A pack of raptors slowly stalk a lone bull mammoth. When they strike, they work in unity as a pack. Dynamic is probably not the right word to describe it. Basically, animal behavior in a living, breathing world as in real life.

As for guns, remember that the tribes are isolated from the rest of the world, so their technology is primitive. The villages are mostly basic wooden houses while only the large cities are brick structures.

Your advice about picturing the game in vertical slices is invaluable. Thanks again!

 

[Sesha]

That's the problem, I don't even know how to name it! Sorry, it's my first time laying my ideas on GAF. Can a mod switch it to something more appropriate?

I should add that I'm really nervous right now. Don't know what most people will think.

I would've suggested Speculation: Personal ideas for an open world RPG. Or, What I want to see in an open world RPG. But looking at the thread more closely, I guess that's already been solved.

Btw, OP, even though you said you're not making a game, I'd like to see you take a stab at it anyway, and use this thread as a jumping off point. Can't hurt to try.

 

[Javin98]

I would've suggested Speculation: Personal ideas for an open world RPG. Or, What I want to see in an open world RPG.

Haha, yeah, you're right. I admit, I was overly nervous and didn't know what to name the thread.

 

[Adam Prime]

When I was in elementary school during a boring day of class, I would "invent" my own game in a notebook. I would have pages and pages and write down all of my ideas for my fictional game that I had no intention of ever creating. I would then show all of my friends to my ideas during lunch or recess and we all collaborated how to make our fake game SO AWESOMER THAN STREET FIGHTER AND MORTAL KOMBAT COMBINED!


...This thread is that experience for the OP.

 

[Javin98]

When I was in elementary school during a boring day of class, I would "invent" my own game in a notebook. I would have pages and pages and write down all of my ideas for my fictional game that I had no intention of ever creating. I would then show all of my friends to my ideas during lunch or recess and we all collaborated how to make our fake game SO AWESOMER THAN STREET FIGHTER AND MORTAL KOMBAT COMBINED!


...This thread is that experience for the OP.

Well, great, thanks for sharing and showing how childish I am, then. You happy now?

 

[Nottle]

Open world is very hard to get right.

Personally in this theororetical game I would reduce the scale and make it more Zelda like than Farcry like. Give the world design more thought than a typical open world, it may not be as vast but using a smaller world that is more enjoyable and memorable to explore is more interesting to me. Areas can unlock via story and character skill progression rather than we that mountain you can go there and do nothing except find collectibles.

Speaking of which, in open world games collectibles have to be fun, interesting and rewarding.

First off there needs to be a reward for the collectible. Something noticeably different has to change with your character. I'm playing Mafia 2 right now and as far as I can tell collecting the playboy magazines does nothing except make me want to google vintage porn. Heart pieces or the books in fallout are a good example of this done well. You explored and now you are more survivable.

2nd, it's probably a good idea to design the collectibles well, meaning you want to not make too many, you don't want them to be either too obvious or too hidden. Bringing back Zelda, in a Link Between Worlds you collected those tiny octopus guys for upgrades. They made a noise to alert you to start looking around the area, sometimes they involved some light puzzle element to get them, and there were I believe just 100 of them. I got them all because I felt like they benefited my character, they were not a chore, and they served as a nice diversion. I didn't feel like I ever needed a guide, but didn't feel like they were just spots on my map to check off either.

 

[Javin98]

Open world is very hard to get right.

Personally in this theororetical game I would reduce the scale and make it more Zelda like than Farcry like. Give the world design more thought than a typical open world, it may not be as vast but using a smaller world that is more enjoyable and memorable to explore is more interesting to me. Areas can unlock via story and character skill progression rather than we that mountain you can go there and do nothing except find collectibles.

Speaking of which, in open world games collectibles have to be fun, interesting and rewarding.

First off there needs to be a reward for the collectible. Something noticeably different has to change with your character. I'm playing Mafia 2 right now and as far as I can tell collecting the playboy magazines does nothing except make me want to google vintage porn. Heart pieces or the books in fallout are a good example of this done well. You explored and now you are more survivable.

2nd, it's probably a good idea to design the collectibles well, meaning you want to not make too many, you don't want them to be either too obvious or too hidden. Bringing back Zelda, in a Link Between Worlds you collected those tiny octopus guys for upgrades. They made a noise to alert you to start looking around the area, sometimes they involved some light puzzle element to get them, and there were I believe just 100 of them. I got them all because I felt like they benefited my character, they were not a chore, and they served as a nice diversion. I didn't feel like I ever needed a guide, but didn't feel like they were just spots on my map to check off either.

Yep, I can agree with this. Ubisoft games have a ton of collectibles, but they often feel like a chore to collect. I simply do it to get that 100% and my money's worth. More open world games should take influence from GTA5's collectibles. When the collectibles are all picked up, a short mission is available as the conclusion for each set. In my dream project, I never once thought about putting in useless collectibles. Exploring mines, caves and dungeons allow you to mine for objects which can be sold to merchants. As for scale, if it were significantly smaller, to me, it wouldn't feel right as a ecosystem simulation.

Werewolves.

Not sure if you're kidding, but I always planned for a semi grounded world. Unlike most RPG's, there are no elves and dwarves.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Werewolves.

 

[Llyrwenne]

Yeah, I don't blame those who are confused by my vague explaination and bullet points. The thing is, though, I have always just imagined this whole project in my head. I never thought about doing sketches and design documents. Hell, the reason I posted this thread was actually to see if others were even interested in the whole concept anyway. Now that I've seen some interest, I might move things further along even though I most likely will never develop this game.

I struggled with that a lot too. I'd think up an idea, think up all kinds of cool stuff in my head, but then would not put them on paper or really work them out much. I still occasionally come up with ideas I think are cool ( though maybe not on quite such a large scale as you >w< ) and I always force myself to write them down or draw parts of them. It really helps make your ideas more concrete. In the long run, it will also help you communicate your ideas to others.

You do raise a lot of questions that I never even thought of and I didn't realize I was using examples of other games excessively. About the tribes, I forgot to elaborate on them in the OP, but I always pictured them as groups of people with different ethnics and economical lifestyles. For instance, one tribe who make their living of hunting animals are nomadic by nature and are typically temperamental. On the other hand, another tribe that trades materials with other tribes are wealthy and live in a massive city. As such, the personalities of the bachelorettes reflect the tribe they come from. I haven't thought of the story, but I've been thinking about rivalry among some of the tribes and it's up to the player character to quell it or pick a side.

As for the large theropods levelling the towns, I think it could work as a randomized event and the player will be notified when checking the bulletin board. This would then work as a side quest. The towns don't have to be fully destructible. Just as long as some random villagers are being tossed around and eaten, I think that will suffice. I have never given the level differences a thought, though, so thanks for that! Anyway, if the player fails, the town and its villagers are desolated. In the grand scheme of things, the bachelorette will be unavailable and the tribe won't be involved in the main story line, in which they could be helpful or enemies.

See, here you delve into a few points just a little bit deeper and you can already create an interesting dynamic with what you described. You now have a more defined idea of what the tribes will do ( some offer a date-able character, you can trade with them, and they are part of the story - either as friends or enemies ), and some basic idea of what happens when you fail ( date-able character dies / is unavailable, lose access to the tribe in some way, tribe becomes less friendly ), and from that spring interesting dynamics such as the player being able to decide not to help a certain tribe because they are already hostile to them or perhaps still helping them after all in an effort to improve their relationship with them. This is still fairly broad and still a way off from a fully thought out concept, but it does help in painting an interesting picture / selling your idea.

One last thing as a general tip here ( and something others have brought up too ); don't just keep adding things. It might be easy to get carried away by constantly seeing new opportunities for things to add or to expand existing mechanics, but remain aware that everything you add makes the game more complicated. Try and find that one thing you find central to the idea and stick to that. When you add something that doesn't directly relate to or enhance that core, you might want to re-evaluate it.

Your advice about picturing the game in vertical slices is invaluable. Thanks again!

Happy to help. Good luck with further exploring your ideas! ^w^

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Not sure if you're kidding, but I always planned for a semi grounded world. Unlike most RPG's, there are no elves and dwarves.

I was half-kidding. I've just really wanted a Werewolf: The Apocalypse game on PC so if someone asks for open world RPG ideas that's the first thing that comes to mind.

 

[Javin98]

I struggled with that a lot too. I'd think up an idea, think up all kinds of cool stuff in my head, but then would not put them on paper or really work them out much. I still occasionally come up with ideas I think are cool ( though maybe not on quite such a large scale as you >w< ) and I always force myself to write them down or draw parts of them. It really helps make your ideas more concrete. In the long run, it will also help you communicate your ideas to others.See, here you delve into a few points just a little bit deeper and you can already create an interesting dynamic with what you described. You now have a more defined idea of what the tribes will do ( some offer a date-able character, you can trade with them, and they are part of the story - either as friends or enemies ), and some basic idea of what happens when you fail ( date-able character dies / is unavailable, lose access to the tribe in some way, tribe becomes less friendly ), and from that spring interesting dynamics such as the player being able to decide not to help a certain tribe because they are already hostile to them or perhaps still helping them after all in an effort to improve their relationship with them. This is still fairly broad and still a way off from a fully thought out concept, but it does help in painting an interesting picture / selling your idea.

One last thing as a general tip here ( and something others have brought up too ); don't just keep adding things. It might be easy to get carried away by constantly seeing new opportunities for things to add or to expand existing mechanics, but remain aware that everything you add makes the game more complicated. Try and find that one thing you find central to the idea and stick to that. When you add something that doesn't directly relate to or enhance that core, you might want to re-evaluate it.Happy to help. Good luck with further exploring your ideas! ^w^

Well, I don't usually draw stuff because I'm horrible at drawing and I mostly rely on others for art related stuff. Also, I don't usually write it down unless I'm alone because I just get so nervous about others seeing it. I'm glad that I elaborated enough that you get the gist of what I'm trying to achieve in this project, though. Of all the posts in this thread, yours helped me the most in trying to communicate my ideas. Sometimes, I just find it hard to word my imaginations and fantasies and I need help with that.

As for adding too many things, thanks to the feedback from this thread, I realized my original vision was indeed more of a bloated mess. So I decided to axe farming and part time jobs. With those out of the way, I'm currently more focused on moving it to exploration based. See, this is exactly why I posted this thread. Because only other enthusiastic gamers can tell me what's wrong.

Again, thanks a lot to you and everyone else who took the time to criticize constructively.

I was half-kidding. I've just really wanted a Werewolf: The Apocalypse game on PC so if someone asks for open world RPG ideas that's the first thing that comes to mind.

Well, in a world where the creatures came to being through somewhat grounded but exaggeration scientific explainations, werewolves wouldn't fit in this, unfortunately. Perhaps you should try out The Witcher 3? Open world RPG with lots of werewolves to kill.

Btw, OP, even though you said you're not making a game, I'd like to see you take a stab at it anyway, and use this thread as a jumping off point. Can't hurt to try.

Oh, damn, I didn't see this edit. Thanks a lot for this. Means a lot to me.

 

[Crayon]

You've got spunk, op.

Make a smaller game first, tho.

 

[Javin98]

You've got spunk, op.

Make a smaller game first, tho.

Haha, if I wanted to make a game on my own or with a small team, I would definitely try to make a game with simple but addictive mechanics first. This is just a "What if" project. For me, it's nice to imagine what could be done if you have the right resources. Making my game is really a matter of when, not if. I do plan on becoming a game developer.

 

[Fishious]

I think others have expounded on this already, but I'd really like to drive it home. The OP is basically a list of bullet points that gives little indication about how the game would actually play. Many of the specifics you listed are natural consequences of the content in the game and the gameplay. Let me give you an example of how it looks to me and probably most of the other people in this thread.

Let's say I'm a chef and I want to take the culinary world by storm, so I set out to create the most delicious snack food. It will have:

1. A delicious chocolately taste.
2. Also have some ham in there because ham is yummy.
3. Only 100 calories per serving so even people on diets can enjoy it.
4. It'll cost $5.00 for 4 oz.

So what actually would this be? Is it chocolate with bits of ham in it? Is it some sort of glazed ham? Is it ham inside a chocolate doughnut? My first point is open world RPG is entirely too broad. And simply likening it to other games is insufficient because some people haven't played those, plus you might want certain mechanics from one, but not others and it might give people the wrong idea.

The second issue. Why ham and chocolate? Sure they both taste good, but do they actually complement each other? In your list it doesn't seem like you've given much thought to how each component ties in to the others. This doesn't necessarily mean the list needs to be trimmed down (since you've already admitted it's basically impossible to create), but we need to know how each fits into the other. Why would I form a hunting party? What am I hunting? If I hunt whatever, what do I get out of it? Do I have to share the spoils with the rest of the party? Is the tribe chief going to care if I get them all killed? Why would they even go with me in the first place? I could make some inferences like I need to hunt for food and materials to keep my character alive and craft items. Maybe I can trade excess to curry favor with the tribes, etc. But without any of this info I'm only guessing.

The 3rd and 4th items I listed aren't decisions I can actually make until I have a better idea of what my chocolate/ham atrocity actually is. I can't know how many calories it will have or how much it will cost if I don't even know what it is. In the same why you can't know how many sq miles the map needs to be, how many tribes there are, how long the quest is, etc until you have a fair number of systems in place. For the size of the map, you'll need to look at how you'll populate it with interesting things that will give the player a reason to go there. If I need mammoth hide, but I can get that right where I start, why would I go elsewhere to hunt mammoths? With a space that large you need to generate a sizable amount of unique content to fill it. Likewise, as you flesh out the histories, cultures, and territories of the tribes you might find you only actually have enough ideas to make 8 or maybe you need 21 to better cover the map. And finally play time can't accurately be judged until you have most of the content in place. You can't even accurately estimate until you know how long on average a single combat encounter will take, how long it takes to travel, etc.

In short your ideas are pretty half baked and there's not a lot we can really say about them, even with your later clarifications. Even if you think this idea is totally impossible and will never get made, at least take the time to flesh it out to the best of your ability. Try writing a design document. Even though you'll never make this game, maybe one day you'll pull a few pieces from the doc for something you actually do make.

 

[Javin98]

*snip*

Thanks for taking the time to read the OP and writing this post! Now, I don't know if it's entirely fair to say that this is all half baked. The thing is, although there is still much to work and balance out, I did already plan out how the mechanics are incorporated into the game and how they compliment one another. However, I wanted to keep the OP short and simple so most people won't have to read walls of text. My mistake was assuming that most people would be able to picture it. To make it more clear to you, I'll answer your questions.

Hunting parties are formed to take down animals which are otherwise too difficult to take down on your own. Examples would be large theropods like Tyrannosaurus and Spinosaurus or the huge sauropods like Brachiosaurus. Before other members will agree to even join, they will request for a significant amount of the cut. You are then given the choice to agree if you find it reasonable or bargain if you find it outrageous. Why risk their lives you ask? Well, meat and hide can be used for food or sold to merchants for a high price. That's how one of the tribes, the hunting tribe live.

As for the map size, number of quests and playtime, that's more of a target of how long I would propose the game to be. But yeah, probably not the best idea.

 

[jdstorm]

Thanks for taking the time to read the OP and writing this post! Now, I don't know if it's entirely fair to say that this is all half baked. The thing is, although there is still much to work and balance out, I did already plan out how the mechanics are incorporated into the game and how they compliment one another. However, I wanted to keep the OP short and simple so most people won't have to read walls of text. My mistake was assuming that most people would be able to picture it. To make it more clear to you, I'll answer your questions.

Hunting parties are formed to take down animals which are otherwise too difficult to take down on your own. Examples would be large theropods like Tyrannosaurus and Spinosaurus or the huge sauropods like Brachiosaurus. Before other members will agree to even join, they will request for a significant amount of the cut. You are then given the choice to agree if you find it reasonable or bargain if you find it outrageous. Why risk their lives you ask? Well, meat and hide can be used for food or sold to merchants for a high price. That's how one of the tribes, the hunting tribe live.

As for the map size, number of quests and playtime, that's more of a target of how long I would propose the game to be. But yeah, probably not the best idea.

A lot of what you are proposing from an open world RPG standpoint is similar to the Xenoblade games. Those can take anywhere between 40-300 hours because there is a wealth of content.

Anther series that you could be inspired by within the RPG genre is mass effect and those games are shorter and more focused but will still take you anywhere between 15-60 hours depending on the sidequests you chose to do.

Another game that is equally ambitious is No Man's Sky and it has a lot of what you are thinking about. And in its initial impressions thread it's divisive because while some enjoy the exploring others find it boring.

Reading your posts has definitely inspired my creativity, and I can envision multiple working prototypes of something that fulfills your criteria in my head. But like someone previously mentioned. Right now you are a chef who is listing ingredients.

Imagine you are a chef and you say start a thread.. Ideas for lunch it will have Flour, water, oil, meat and cheese. That could be anything, a Burger, a Pizza, a Pie, curry with nan bread, Tacos ect

If I were you I'd start with genre. Is it an action game about hunting, is it a management sim like tropico, is it a dating/relationship sim where relationship interactions are the most important element.

Once you have the Base gameplay mechanics, then you can start building elements on top of that.

 

[Javin98]

A lot of what you are proposing from an open world RPG standpoint is similar to the Xenoblade games. Those can take anywhere between 40-300 hours because there is a wealth of content.

Anther series that you could be inspired by within the RPG genre is mass effect and those games are shorter and more focused but will still take you anywhere between 15-60 hours depending on the sidequests you chose to do.

Another game that is equally ambitious is No Man's Sky and it has a lot of what you are thinking about. And in its initial impressions thread it's divisive because while some enjoy the exploring others find it boring.

Reading your posts has definitely inspired my creativity, and I can envision multiple working prototypes of something that fulfills your criteria in my head. But like someone previously mentioned. Right now you are a chef who is listing ingredients.

Imagine you are a chef and you say start a thread.. Ideas for lunch it will have Flour, water, oil, meat and cheese. That could be anything, a Burger, a Pizza, a Pie, curry with nan bread, Tacos ect

If I were you I'd start with genre. Is it an action game about hunting, is it a management sim like tropico, is it a dating/relationship sim where relationship interactions are the most important element.

Once you have the Base gameplay mechanics, then you can start building elements on top of that.

Huh, glad to hear my posts inspired your creativity. Thanks, I rarely ever get that. See, I do indeed have a lot of the mechanics planned out, but I think it's fair to say I was a bit directionless before I made this thread. I was afraid most people would call the project a rip off of other games or they would find it unappealing. But the general consensus seems to be that the project could be interesting, I just didn't flesh it out enough. Now that I've received feedback, I've begun to trim down some mechanics and started focusing more on the core ones, exploration and hunting.

It would be kinda hard to pinpoint the specific genre, since my scope seems to be encompassing several aspects from a few genres. Hell, the 'dynamic ecosystem' may as well spawn a new 'ecosystem simulator' genre entirely. But to simplify, I'd say by and large, it is an RPG more focused on action. Exploration is entirely up to the players. There are many interesting places to find and each sector of the island is filled with species not found elsewhere. Take for example the Allosaurus. To avoid the larger predators, Allosaurus mostly resides in the jungle areas, where it uses ambush attacks on prey. However, players are not forced to explore the island if they choose not to with the exception of quests.

The dating and marriage system is also entirely optional, just to add more depth and content to the game world. I hope you get a better idea of what I'm envisioning.

Also, the resemblance to Xenoblade is completely unintentional. I never even played those games before.

 

[Milijango]

I don't see the point in having a 530 square mile world for a 25-50 hour game. How long to beat lists the Witcher 3 as taking ~45 hours to complete the main story, and 100-200 hours for anyone looking to do optional content. That game is "only" 52 square miles, and a considerable amount of that is ocean at that, yet I've never ever heard anyone complain it wasn't big enough.

You can also get a lot more mileage out of an open world if it's small enough to not demand fast travel. Red Dead Redemption is 12 square miles and about 7 minutes' ride end-to-end.

 

[Javin98]

I don't see the point in having a 530 square mile world for a 25-50 hour game. How long to beat lists the Witcher 3 as taking ~45 hours to complete the main story, and 100-200 hours for anyone looking to do optional content. That game is "only" 52 square miles, and a considerable amount of that is ocean at that, yet I've never ever heard anyone complain it wasn't big enough.

You can also get a lot more mileage out of an open world if it's small enough to not demand fast travel. Red Dead Redemption is 12 square miles and about 7 minutes' ride end-to-end.

Trust me, I've considered this a lot. However, the world of my dream project is very different from the world of The Witcher 3. The latter is mostly focused on the rural areas and large cities. The monsters are just sort of there for Geralt to do his thing. He is a monster slayer for hire after all. The monsters have no special place in the world. On the other hand, my project is filled with many species of wildlife and they all form a ecosystem. They are not there just for the sake of it, they are there to make the island feel like a wonderful but dangerous place to explore. I don't mean to be bringing up examples again, but if you watched King Kong, just imagine Skull Island which you can explore. If the world was considerably smaller, I feel it would diminish the immersion of being in a living, breathing world.

 

[jdstorm]

For instance here's a quick pitch based on the ideas you have presented (but tweaked a little bit) which is probably nothing like what you have envisaged

Savage is the story of the Chiefs of the Blank tribe of the Misterious Island.

The player is stranded on an island isolated from the modern world, where everyone is illiterate and no one can speak English. Use your superior hunting skills to gather resources and your powers of perception and ability to read people to rule this island, find love and ultimately have your own son/daughter and start the adventure all over again.

Gameplay loops
All characters will have several base systems that will need to be kept in balance
Happiness Hunger/thirst Anger, Fear. Strength vs speed This can be done by the player hunting and exploring the island to gain more resources or sharing those of his village with others on the island. The system will rate each NPCs Happiness Hunger, anger and Fear in a Binary way (numbered 1-50) with each NPCs personality generated by RNG version of those stats ie A character you might want to date is only happy at a +40 happiness rating so they will be much harder to impress then someone who only requires a +20 rating) the player will gather items to fill these needs by hunting and crafting IE. picking Flowers and giving them to someone = +1 happiness

Combat/gameplay loop. This will be a typical 3rd person cover based shooter/melee game where you will use linear corridors of designated gameplay space that are all interconnected to give the impression of a fully realised island paradise of 530sq miles however the playable area is coser to 50sq miles

Exploration Metroidvania based on developing simple items such as rope swings and Ladders to unlock new areas. Secret dungeons with mystery bosses.

I've never done game design, but this to me feels like a half baked pitch

Yet you probably have a very specific idea of the game I am presenting

 

[jdstorm]

All good creative works build on Archtype and pre existing ideas. What makes them new and interesting is how they combine them. Just look at Destiny. It could be described as Borderlands/mass effect/Halo with double jump. Yet it is still very much it's own unique thing

the only reason I keep bringing up Xenoblade is because I think it's a great game and learning about what already exists allows you to expand on good ideas you might want to adapt, or refine the things that don't work as well

 

[Javin98]

For instance here's a quick pitch based on the ideas you have presented (but tweaked a little bit) which is probably nothing like what you have envisaged

Savage is the story of the Chiefs of the Blank tribe of the Misterious Island.

The player is stranded on an island isolated from the modern world, where everyone is illiterate and no one can speak English. Use your superior hunting skills to gather resources and your powers of perception and ability to read people to rule this island, find love and ultimately have your own son/daughter and start the adventure all over again.

Gameplay loops
All characters will have several base systems that will need to be kept in balance
Happiness Hunger/thirst Anger, Fear. Strength vs speed This can be done by the player hunting and exploring the island to gain more resources or sharing those of his village with others on the island. The system will rate each NPCs Happiness Hunger, anger and Fear in a Binary way (numbered 1-50) with each NPCs personality generated by RNG version of those stats ie A character you might want to date is only happy at a +40 happiness rating so they will be much harder to impress then someone who only requires a +20 rating) the player will gather items to fill these needs by hunting and crafting IE. picking Flowers and giving them to someone = +1 happiness

Combat/gameplay loop. This will be a typical 3rd person cover based shooter/melee game where you will use linear corridors of designated gameplay space that are all interconnected to give the impression of a fully realised island paradise of 530sq miles however the playable area is coser to 50sq miles

Exploration Metroidvania based on developing simple items such as rope swings and Ladders to unlock new areas. Secret dungeons with mystery bosses.

I've never done game design, but this to me feels like a half baked pitch

Yet you probably have a very specific idea of the game I am presenting

This is a good idea, actually. I love this potential game you have presented, but you're right. The game I envisioned is much different. To start with, having mystery bosses who are human characters would be nice, but in the semi grounded world I crafted having some strange dinosaur hybrid or even dragons would be so out of place. Remember, the existence of these creatures are explained in an exaggerated but still somewhat acceptable scientific reasoning. As for the combat, my vision is more melee focused. Different weapons have different attributes and are more effective against certain enemies. Swords hit hard and fast but axe hit harder but slower. Bows are handy to kill smaller prey from range and are the only logical way to bring down a Tyrannosaurus aside from spears and bombs. As for the map size, perhaps I'm the only one who thinks it needs to be this big. Think of Just Cause and its sandbox design, but this encompasses animals in a sandbox.

As for the story bit, fighting other tribes is a good but generic idea to me. It's been done too many times. Instead, I propose a story where the theme revolves around the coexistence of the tribes with the dangerous creatures on the island.

All good creative works build on Archtype and pre existing ideas. What makes them new and interesting is how they combine them. Just look at Destiny. It could be described as Borderlands/mass effect/Halo with double jump. Yet it is still very much it's own unique thing

the only reason I keep bringing up Xenoblade is because I think it's a great game and learning about what already exists allows you to expand on good ideas you might want to adapt, or refine the things that don't work as well

I agree and I definitely will be checking out Xenoblade more.

 

[Javin98]

Due to the main criticism being that the OP is vague and confusing, I've added in a lot more info. Hopefully it clarifies things if anyone is still interested.