that's not what he's saying though, he's suggesting that games can achieve more, not that what he did in Heavy Rain is the only path to that.
And you know what? He's right.
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Interview with David Cage: 'I'm not a frustrated filmmaker'
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
- Start date
that's not what he's saying though, he's suggesting that games can achieve more, not that what he did in Heavy Rain is the only path to that.
And you know what? He's right.
The_Hitcher89
Member
The truth has no place in a David Cage thread.
CambriaRising
Member
Very true. People have an almost irrational hate for this guy.
rockman zx
Member
Great interview, thanks for the translation.
I've spent years as a student of storytelling, in all its forms, and I can say with confidence that David Cage is just plain bad. It's not a subjective claim, either, but one that would take a lot more in-depth discussion than I'm able to get in right now.
I am mature enough to be able to divorce what I like and dislike from what is good and bad.
I'd compare Heavy Rain to Dragon's Lair with more then one path. Or a visual novel with lots of qtes. Take your pick.
dragonelite
Member
Jep for me is im afraid the industry is going his way.
Im glad a guy like Cliffy B and others have seen that scripted events aren't really that funny for a big group. I want full control over my character how am i to get immersed into a game when my immersion gets interrupted every 10min for a cutscene.
Give me a zelda or Gears over what Cage is making any day of the week.
And im pretty sure the people that hate him also feel the same.
He wants games to be interactive story/movies instead of being Game people play.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Room for all types of games, and its not like Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit have had any kind of effect on gaming as a whole, let alone a negative one. I can see why people would hate CoD, but David Cage games? Nah
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I never liked his stuff, either. Sure, it had potential, but I would call it good.
Just because something is non-traditional doesn't mean that it is automatically good, and too much as that is rooted in today's gaming culture.
ShineALight
Member
I do not see video games as the best medium to express a narrative or tell an engaging story. It is, at best, the fourth-most capable in that regard behind literature, film and stage plays. It would be a tremendous endeavor for even a very skilled writer to successfully convey emotion and to craft an engaging narrative in a film or book, but to do that in a story with moving parts?
It's hard to convey meaning in an effective way when you have limited control over your characters and how events unfold, and that's a problem with Quantic's games for both players and the creators. For whatever reason Cage is passionate that these narratives play out in the medium of video games while having a seeming distaste for the things that games are best at and a tenuous grasp on storytelling, so his works come out gimped from both sides.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory when I say that the closest analogue I can think of for his games in another medium is "Choose Your Own Adventure" books, except those were marketed to a "Young Adult" demographic rather than a "Adult Gamer" demographic. I'm very interested in seeing if Quantic can recapture the commercial success of Heavy Rain with Beyond, because I always thought the numbers that it and L.A. Noire put out were very unusual for what were essentially adventure games and suspected that many that purchased them did so based off of the strong marketing and hype more than an interest in playing a modern take on the adventure genre.
All that being said, I'm not opposed to storytelling in video games, it just takes a very delicate touch to balance a narrative with interactivity and it's something we've rarely seen done successfully.
It's hard to convey meaning in an effective way when you have limited control over your characters and how events unfold, and that's a problem with Quantic's games for both players and the creators. For whatever reason Cage is passionate that these narratives play out in the medium of video games while having a seeming distaste for the things that games are best at and a tenuous grasp on storytelling, so his works come out gimped from both sides.
I'm not trying to be inflammatory when I say that the closest analogue I can think of for his games in another medium is "Choose Your Own Adventure" books, except those were marketed to a "Young Adult" demographic rather than a "Adult Gamer" demographic. I'm very interested in seeing if Quantic can recapture the commercial success of Heavy Rain with Beyond, because I always thought the numbers that it and L.A. Noire put out were very unusual for what were essentially adventure games and suspected that many that purchased them did so based off of the strong marketing and hype more than an interest in playing a modern take on the adventure genre.
All that being said, I'm not opposed to storytelling in video games, it just takes a very delicate touch to balance a narrative with interactivity and it's something we've rarely seen done successfully.
Cyber Caesar
Member
Why can't we have the best of both worlds?
Femmeworth
Banned
Oh dear, that was painful.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Heavy Raid did well because it was unique. LA Noire did well because it said Rockstar on the box and there was a huge number of questionable (for me) reviews. Both were hyped, but hype and marketing alone don't give you sustained sales like Heavy Rain's
Love Heavy Rain. I want more games in this vein. There are enough place in the gaming industry for all sorts of games. Quantic Dream heading towards this direction does not mean other developers will follow suit. If they're not interested in this kind of game then they are not going to make it. But I'm happy that there is one company that at least makes this kind of game. Those who don't like this kind of games, well, FFS, there are many other types of games for you to play.
Glad to read that. At the end of the day, GAF is just a small representation of the gaming public. There are others who really enjoy Heavy Rain, resulted in its commercial success. Also glad to hear that Sony wasn't in the mindset for making sequel but rather developing other unique experiences.
Glad to read that. At the end of the day, GAF is just a small representation of the gaming public. There are others who really enjoy Heavy Rain, resulted in its commercial success. Also glad to hear that Sony wasn't in the mindset for making sequel but rather developing other unique experiences.
I give him credit for trying to make games like this but he's got the writing skills of Tommy Wiseau. Both the games he's released we're utter garbage. When he's made one that isn't the video game equivalent of The Room, maybe I will take him seriously. I'm not sure Geist x Heavy Rain is going to do that.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Latter. It's no Dragon's Lair (essentially a reflex game... with much more beautiful visuals).
Don'tBeWeird
Member
Games like Heavy Rain need to exist, if only for the purposes of variety. I do not want every game to be the same, so I enjoy it when someone tries something a little different - even if that 'something different' isn't as enjoyable to some people as a traditional videogame.
Define "achieve more". Are we talking about narrative? Then he's talking specifically about narrative games and shouldn't downplay gameplay focused, traditional games. And if we're talking about narrative, Cage himself should try harder to achieve more, Heavy Rain is by far not the best narrative game I've played.
This is an apt comparison.
I wish I could find the interview he did with some European site (Joystiq?) some time ago where they asked him what games he liked to play and be inspired by, and his answer was basically: What? I don't really play games, said in a derisive way. I wonder if he still thinks the same.
Anyway, I don't really dislike his games for what they are, but for games that are almost all about narrative, his narrative skills are sub par. I think most of it is cheap emotion in order to engage the player, but then again, I haven't really felt compelled to finish any of them, so they might just be really boring to me.
out0v0rder
Member
Damn right he isn't, he's a successful videogamesman
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You can still be different without being horribly written!
Cyber Caesar
Member
Achieve more- enough vision not to continue and compete down the same path half the industry is going with FPS clones.(it's go big or go home) If just 2 million people decide they want to play something that is a big departure from the mainstream, Mr. Cage will continue to have success. His games are marketed to a niche market that wants a switch up from the status quo. His strength is his ability to couple a somewhat novel concept for a game with some of the industries best production values. To me that effort alone is achieving more.
"I am not interested in giving them 'fun', I want to give them meaning; I don't want to challenge their thumbs, I want to challenge their minds." -David Cage
Mr. Cage's only downfall is he doesn't understand we do want to challenge our thumbs at the same time as challenging our minds. Fun never hurt anybody.
I would agree with this, although i don't think there is a single "right way" to do it.
There's way, way more to the current state of gaming than FPS clones. I should know because last FPS I bought was on the N64. He's not doing anything special as far as I'm concerned, he's not the first or the best at making narrative-driven games. And that quote sums it up for me - he doesn't want his games to be fun. And how is Heavy Rain any mind challenging? I just completely disagree with his philosophy, personally.
ComputerMKII
Banned
fun is not the sole goal of any other widely accepted form of entertainment. why should it be true for video games? You're too willing to gloss over the video aspect of videogames. Fun is a very specific kind of enjoyment and it's not a bad idea to be able to enjoy games for something other than being fun.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Doesn't make Heavy Rain any less bland and subpar.
I'm okay with all kinds of games existing and being successful, including Heavy Rain, but his stuff isn't special and elevated because he actively wants to remove the fun from video games. It rubs me the wrong way how he dismisses traditional gaming and believes his stuff is inherently superior, I really don't know why people think fun for the sake of fun is so bad. Making a good, fun, creative, challenging game is more praise worthy than aping Hollywood, in my opinion. The "strong emotional situations" in Heavy Rain are no different to me than cheap jump scares in horror games.
May I suggest an alternative interpretation:
Heavy Rain didn't do well enough to warrant a sequel, which is why Sony didn't ask for a sequel, and decided to ask Cage to try something else.
Maybe you should read the conversation instead of just the post.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Oh I know. I read that, but the crux of the argument is essentially defending Heavy Rain's conception.
Cyber Caesar
Member
The state of gaming from a perception standpoint, is that of one dominated by online shooters. I've never played a game about a distraught father. Yes, that was challenging for me. That was a new experience that wasn't run of the mill. How it was conveyed was a unique game experience for me. I felt like I was somehow responsible. That challenged my concept for what a game could be.
You could say it's dominated by Hollywood-like games, in which case Heavy Rain is part of the "problem". Now, and this is where we'll have to agree to disagree since we clearly have different priorities in games, I don't see how being about a distraught father makes Heavy Rain somehow a more enjoyable experience. Let alone a higher form of gaming. I'm pretty sure Plumbers Don't Wear Ties was a very unique experience for its time.
Don't mistake "hollywood-like" for cinematic. Our blockbuster games for the mainstream are CoD and Angry Birds.
In an industry where garbage dominates revenue, there's always a place for games that try deliver a more meaningful experience, even if the guy can be misguided at times.
But no one is saying there's no place for his games.
Imagine Yoshinori Ono stating how his games are superior and a more elevated form of game than every other kind of game. He'd be ridiculed to no end, because that's a very dumb thing to say when gaming is not about one single kind of experience. Cage shouldn't get a free pass just because his games aren't shooters. Especially when his games aren't probably the best games of its kind.
Doesn't matter what Cage thinks. You have to separate the art from the artist, in every medium. Many artists are straight up assholes or worse. But what Cage actually creates are valid forms of gaming I'm really glad exist.
Isn't this a thread about David Cage, though? Again, I don't mind the existence of his games and I'm glad he pleases his audience.
Well, no. Apparently because he's full of himself he's a bad storyteller and his games are shit.
Back to your original point, being a distraught father set the whole tone for Heavy Rain. It actually does make it a more enjoyable experience because we were brought into his life just as it crumbled.
I don't think anyone thinks he's a bad storyteller because he's full of himself, but because people genuinely don't like his stuff. In my case, when I played and didn't like Heavy Rain I honestly didn't even know about David Cage's existence.
drkOne
Member
I was able to enjoy Farenheit and Heavy Rain because they were different experiences from what I get year after year.
The story or whatever didn't keep me from enjoying the game. They are games, not movies.
Farenheit does hit a point where the story loses its interest, but it was one of the most memorable games I played in the last couple years, and I'm thankful we have someone like Cage in our industry.
The story or whatever didn't keep me from enjoying the game. They are games, not movies.
Farenheit does hit a point where the story loses its interest, but it was one of the most memorable games I played in the last couple years, and I'm thankful we have someone like Cage in our industry.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I dunno, narrative is pretty important if you're gonna have little "gameplay" in it after all. I mean, in point and click you only point and click, so their saving grace is a very well done script and plot.
Then again The Room was terrible yet watching it was one of the most amazing experiences I have ever had.
Then again The Room was terrible yet watching it was one of the most amazing experiences I have ever had.
The part that ticked me off was when he said we [developers] need to grow up.
Adding mindless, stupid, immature content into games isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean Saints Row is ALL mindless, stupid, immature content and the game is more fun than Heavy Rain. Not everything needs to be oh so serious and go for some stupid cliche cinematic feel that he's trying to replicate with his games.
I like his games and all, but essentially saying that mindless fun in games is something we should avoid is just so absurd.
Adding mindless, stupid, immature content into games isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean Saints Row is ALL mindless, stupid, immature content and the game is more fun than Heavy Rain. Not everything needs to be oh so serious and go for some stupid cliche cinematic feel that he's trying to replicate with his games.
I like his games and all, but essentially saying that mindless fun in games is something we should avoid is just so absurd.
rosaceadude2112
Member
My other favorite part of Heavy Rain is the psychiatrist who doesn't tell the cops he thinks his patient is a murderer, despite it being his legal obligation to do so, and lets them rough him up for a while.
Cyber Caesar
Member
Games that tackle fringe subject matter will get a free pass because gamers crave new experiences. Cage's games are eccentric enough to almost sell on concept alone and that is saying something about the homogeneity of the industry. Gamers are on the edge of their seats to see what eccentric concept he's cooking. He creates enough controversy to make you perk up to see what his games are about. It's fine to judge them.