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[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

I just don't understand why there's people who feel like they can control what content others experience.

Like, fuck off already, it's a free country, I can play whatever the fuck I want and if I like fanservice then so be it and if developers refuse to ever cater to an audience like me, I have every right to voice displeasure at that.

We live in the age of control freaks.

 

[Inviusx]

Why do these threads consistently get 200+ replies while actual gaming discussion get overlooked?

 

[LegendOfKage]

Why do these threads consistently get 200+ replies while actual gaming discussion get overlooked?

3:17 time-stamp and onward, in particular.

 

[petran79]

Why do these threads consistently get 200+ replies while actual gaming discussion get overlooked?

No fanservice means no lingerie, no teasing mode, no extra pics and videos, no revealing costume dlc, bad cover art etc...

How can there be a gaming discussion without all of this?

 

[Cybrwzrd]

I will never understand people who get their panties in a wad over a little fan service in media. Entertainment is supposed to be fun.

 

[Saruhashi]

???

New games in the series are new products. Nobody is going back and changing old pointy boob Lara Croft games. New TR games are being designed to cater to a bit of a different audience. It's up to you if you want to buy it or not. This argument that they're changing something doesn't really apply; every new release is a new product. Fallout 3 is not Fallout 2. Rise of the Tomb Raider is not Tomb Raider Underworld.

Right and my point still stands. The new games are not completely new products. They are carrying the "Tomb Raider" brand and therefore are bringing the history, or maybe you prefer to say baggage, of the brand with them.

As you say people have the choice to buy or not buy so the bottom line is whether or not the income generated from new fans is greater than the income lost to fans that don't return.

Fallout 3 is not Fallout 2 but it does try to capture the fans of Fallout in general.

When designing a new Fallout the philosophy probably isn't "Fallout fans are only 15% of all gamers so lets design a game that appeals to the other 85% instead". That would result in failure. The tried and true process is to give something that appeals to your existing fans but also to use marketing to make it exciting to potential new fans. If existing fans are happy enough with the new product then word of mouth alone will start to bring in new players.

When you give the loyal fans things that they actively do not want then you inevitably lose a lot of potential sales.

Tomb Raider is a title with a specific history and a specific fanbase.
"There's 50% of the community that this does not appeal to" is probably a fair enough statement about the original Tomb Raider.

So the question I would have is to what extent a redesign of Lara Croft's character encourages more sales or even encourages more ladies to pick up a Tomb Raider game?

Shadow of the Tomb Raider sales were apparently down 70% compared to the 2013 reboot. That seems like a lot.

Which means that this newest Tomb Raider that is supposedly "designed to cater to a bit of a different audience" is actually not finding much of an audience at all.

In conclusion is it unfair to say that they abandoned their existing audience to appeal to an audience that didn't want to buy their game?
Because that's what it looks like.

They DID change something. They essentially said to long term Tomb Raider fans, probably their main customer base, "the new Tomb Raider isn't for you". Great. How did that work out?

Like I said, they turned one of the most iconic video game characters of all time into Discount Nathan Drake. For what? To gain a "new audience" that would rather play Uncharted?

To stick with the McDs idea. It's like if McDs threw their entire brand identity and history out of the window to try and be more like Burger King but they just ended up becoming a crap version of Burger King.

So if it's true that there is 50% of the population that the industry isn't serving very well then isn't it better to create new and specific IPs targeted at that 50%?

Redesigning Tomb Raider in a way that doesn't appeal to long term fans any more and is now aimed at an audience who won't buy it is just guaranteeing that everybody loses.

 

[El_Belmondo]

bad cover art

What?

 

[underberg]

The audience is getting more diverse and the content is becoming a bit more homogenous... this is not a good trend or path.

Is that true? I don't think so.

Until a few years ago, the vast majority of AAA games had a white male protagonist. Now you can see much more diversity in terms of gender and ethnicity which is, in my opinion, a very good thing (I'm a white male, by the way).

 

[Dunki]

Is that true? I don't think so.

Until a few years ago, the vast majority of AAA games had a white male protagonist. Now you can see much more diversity in terms of gender and ethnicity which is, in my opinion, a very good thing (I'm a white male, by the way).

But the characters in general become more boring due to it. For example you can basically exchange every female mainprotagonist today because developer can not take risks anymore because they fear backlash from the SJW crowd who mostly not even buy their games. I do not know but western characters have become real boring.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Shadow of the Tomb Raider sales were apparently down 70% compared to the 2013 reboot. That seems like a lot.

Which means that this newest Tomb Raider that is supposedly "designed to cater to a bit of a different audience" is actually not finding much of an audience at all.

In conclusion is it unfair to say that they abandoned their existing audience to appeal to an audience that didn't want to buy their game?
Because that's what it looks like.

They DID change something. They essentially said to long term Tomb Raider fans, probably their main customer base, "the new Tomb Raider isn't for you". Great. How did that work out?

Like I said, they turned one of the most iconic video game characters of all time into Discount Nathan Drake. For what? To gain a "new audience" that would rather play Uncharted?

To stick with the McDs idea. It's like if McDs threw their entire brand identity and history out of the window to try and be more like Burger King but they just ended up becoming a crap version of Burger King.

So if it's true that there is 50% of the population that the industry isn't serving very well then isn't it better to create new and specific IPs targeted at that 50%?

Redesigning Tomb Raider in a way that doesn't appeal to long term fans any more and is now aimed at an audience who won't buy it is just guaranteeing that everybody loses.

Just wanting your personal opinion, here. If the game featured Lara with a much sexier design and wearing less clothing, but the story and gameplay was exactly the same, do you think sales would have been a lot better? And do you think the first reboot game struck a better balance between the sexuality of the original games and the lack of sexuality in the latest installment?

I think there's more to it than all that, but I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts.

 

[llien]

Like, fuck off already, it's a free country, I can play whatever the fuck I want

You can't play games with sexy characters, if there are no games with sexy characters.
Obviously

Why do these threads consistently get 200+ replies while actual gaming discussion get overlooked?

A typical game thread is of interest only to those into that type of games.
This thread is not limited to particular title or even gender, it's about nearly all games, hence, there are more stakeholders.
.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

I will never understand people who get their panties in a wad over a little fan service in media. Entertainment is supposed to be fun.

The only thing I can guess is that it's motivated purely by spite and outright hostility, that they just want to make games less fun for a straight male audience.

 

[llien]

So the question I would have is to what extent a redesign of Lara Croft's character encourages more sales or even encourages more ladies to pick up a Tomb Raider game?

Is there even proof that ladies (not from the certain camp/faculty) do not like games with sexy looking female characters?

Spoiler

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Is that true? I don't think so.

Until a few years ago, the vast majority of AAA games had a white male protagonist. Now you can see much more diversity in terms of gender and ethnicity which is, in my opinion, a very good thing (I'm a white male, by the way).

Is this even true or was it even ever disproportionate to the west’s demographics?

Most of the most iconic gaming characters don’t even come from western games. The biggest reason for this is that most big western games don’t even have a protagonist that isn’t user generated.

Really, up until a few years ago, most game protagonists were pixel art or blurry polygons with limited texture mapping. They still had more character than many of the generic multicultural protagonists we have seen pushed on us lately.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

There was a period of time there, during the 7th gen, where yeah, most protagonists were either white bald space marine type guys or white Nathan Drake everyman types.

But the moment passed, so what's the big deal now? And what does this have to do with sexual content?

 

[underberg]

Is this even true or was it even ever disproportionate to the west’s demographics?

Most of the most iconic gaming characters don’t even come from western games. The biggest reason for this is that most big western games don’t even have a protagonist that isn’t user generated.

Really, up until a few years ago, most game protagonists were pixel art or blurry polygons with limited texture mapping. They still had more character than many of the generic multicultural protagonists we have seen pushed on us lately.

Uhm, no?

Just look at the protagonists of the most important AAA games of the previous generation. They are mostly white males/males.

Grand Theft Auto. Assassin's Creed. Uncharted. Infamous. Red Dead Redemption. Watch Dogs. Gears of War. Dead Space. Lost Planet. Dead Rising. And counting.

 

[Saruhashi]

Just wanting your personal opinion, here. If the game featured Lara with a much sexier design and wearing less clothing, but the story and gameplay was exactly the same, do you think sales would have been a lot better? And do you think the first reboot game struck a better balance between the sexuality of the original games and the lack of sexuality in the latest installment?

I think there's more to it than all that, but I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts.

Honestly, I think it's not necessarily as simple as "a much sexier design and wearing less clothing".

I think of it as more "allowing Lara to be more true to the original". I mean that in both design and character expressions.
So even the story should reflect that. Not just the look of the character.

I think Lara's iconic look at character are things that would allow her, and Tomb Raider games by extension, to stand out from the crowd.
The AAA field is already pretty crowded and a lot of the protagonists ARE generic, let's be honest.

Tomb Raider already has it's own identity. Sure, it may be a little immature and it may indeed "appeal to the straight male gamer" but that's what Tomb Raider is. That's what Lara Croft is all about.

I see the recent ones as an attempt to drop the iconic Lara Croft identity while still trying to bank the "Tomb Raider" name. Same with that recent movie. The identity of Tomb Raider is thrown out but the name is kept because there's money in it.

I'm avoiding the questions though.

I believe that if the new Tomb Raider games had really tried to stick to the character or identity of the originals, including the iconic outfit, then they would have stood out more and would have been more popular and would have sold more. Yes.

On the downside, I think a super sexy Lara in 2018 is going to draw the ire of so many people. The question is whether or not that negative press would affect sales or even if the devs just want to avoid it outright.

I think that neither the 2013 reboot nor the newest games really got Lara "right" and by extension they never really got Tomb Raider right.

However the 2013 one did sell very well so that's a positive and an obviously good counterpoint to my arguments.

 

[Saruhashi]

Why do these threads consistently get 200+ replies while actual gaming discussion get overlooked?

Simple. Interesting conversation.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Uhm, no?

Just look at the protagonists of the most important AAA games of the previous generation. They are mostly white males/males.

Grand Theft Auto. Assassin's Creed. Uncharted. Infamous. Red Dead Redemption. Watch Dogs. Gears of War. Dead Space. Lost Planet. Dead Rising. And counting.

GTA? It probably has the most diverse cast of protagonists in gaming, and they are done well.

I couldn’t even name a character in the rest of those games other then Nathan Drake. But that’s the only one out of that whole bunch I’ve played.

 

[The Chairman]

I think Lara's iconic look at character are things that would allow her, and Tomb Raider games by extension, to stand out from the crowd.
The AAA field is already pretty crowded and a lot of the protagonists ARE generic, let's be honest.

Even the creators of the Ready Player One movie was like, this new Lara looks boring lets just use the old Lara design in the movie.

 

[ROMhack]

It's hard to say without any numbers. I started gaming with the SNES and Western games never seemed to have as much sex appeal as Japanese titles and I don't think YouTube comments are proof that anything has changed.

You're not wrong but...

Pahaha yeah I can't defend myself.

 

[petran79]

What?

Difference between western and japanese covers throughout history

 

[ROMhack]

There was a period of time there, during the 7th gen, where yeah, most protagonists were either white bald space marine type guys or white Nathan Drake everyman types.

But the moment passed, so what's the big deal now? And what does this have to do with sexual content?

In fairness it kinda does because it reflects how piss poor Western game developers are at designing characters.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

And why do you think that Sony and now Steam censor Japanese/anime games?

They hate you, the straight (white) male and wish you to vanish of their spot.


When Anita Sarkesian admitted she came to our hobby to change it, that is what she meant, to make straight white males get lost from gaming.

 

[El_Belmondo]

Difference between western and japanese covers throughout history

That comes more from western publishers wanting to do their own thing and thinking that they know how to cater to the western audience. It has been there since forever, man.

It has anything to do with fanservice, it's pure arrogance.

to make straight white males get lost from gaming.

Oh god, the paranoia.

If you do think you're getting left out of gaming because of the reduction of virtual tiddies then it's you who have the issue. Also, if you do feel that straight white males are getting thrown out of the gaming landscape, how do you think every single other audience feels?

And with that i mean ranging from little kids (To whom gamers gatekeep the media like crazy) to (GASP) women.

This is a fuck you, got mine straight from the book. And we can critizise women for critizising sexualised dexigns all we want, but when a male design is too sexualised for our tastes or cater to the female audience way too much we wont doubt to complaint and cry until is changed. Final Fantasy has become the poster child for this, with the main character of Mobius Final Fantasy and FFXII's Vaan as primary examples

Fanservice is good and all, until it doesn't cater to us.

 

[JordanN]

I just don't understand why there's people who feel like they can control what content others experience.

Like, fuck off already, it's a free country, I can play whatever the fuck I want and if I like fanservice then so be it and if developers refuse to ever cater to an audience like me, I have every right to voice displeasure at that.

We live in the age of control freaks.

If you read the Resetera thread on Women characters, it's because they're absolutely fucking nuts.

It's one thing to be offended or dislike a character design, but they literally believe all video game characters are real.

We use to tease kids for believing Santa Claus is real, yet there are adults in real life who think virtual pixels and polygons must have feelings.

Why developers give in to these people is still a mystery to me. The biggest whiners are not even their biggest consumers. Like when the Dragon's Crown controversy took off, how many of those people complaining about Sorceress even knew who Vanillaware was or bought their games?

 

[El_Belmondo]

It's one thing to be offended or dislike a character design, but they literally believe all video game characters are real.

Yeah, the Bayonetta has no real agenda and can't own her sexuality because she is a character created by a man or something. It was a mentality installed so you could never put any single example of actual female characters who owned their sexuality. It used to drive me nuts.

 

[Fuz]

Tomb Raider already has it's own identity. Sure, it may be a little immature and it may indeed "appeal to the straight male gamer"

This is false.
Back then, girls loved Lara. I even had some female friends who didn't usually play games go and play the first 2-3 Tomb Raiders, and mostly because Lara was a positive female heroine, strong & sexy.

And yes, the "sexy" part played an important role in it.

 

[JordanN]

Yeah, the Bayonetta has no real agenda and can't own her sexuality because she is a character created by a man or something. It was a mentality installed so you could never put any single example of actual female characters who owned their sexuality. It used to drive me nuts.

Don't forget there are also actual women designers who make attractive characters too. I believe the Hyperdimension Neptunia series was made by Female leads.

But it doesn't count for some reason.

 

[Fuz]

They hate you, the straight (white) male and wish you to vanish of their spot.

Nah, they still want your money.

 

[Dunki]

That comes more from western publishers wanting to do their own thing and thinking that they know how to cater to the western audience. It has been there since forever, man.

It has anything to do with fanservice, it's pure arrogance.



Oh god, the paranoia.

If you do think you're getting left out of gaming because of the reduction of virtual tiddies then it's you who have the issue. Also, if you do feel that straight white males are getting thrown out of the gaming landscape, how do you think every single other audience feels?

And with that i mean ranging from little kids (To whom gamers gatekeep the media like crazy) to (GASP) women.

This is a fuck you, got mine straight from the book. And we can critizise women for critizising sexualised dexigns all we want, but when a male design is too sexualised for our tastes or cater to the female audience way too much we wont doubt to complaint and cry until is changed. Final Fantasy has become the poster child for this, with the main character of Mobius Final Fantasy and FFXII's Vaan as primary examples

Fanservice is good and all, until it doesn't cater to us.

The problem I have with your straight white male argument is that these people are never satisfied. For example E3 2016 I think it was. 67% of the games presented there were lead by female protagonists and people like Anita still went their own agenda saying it is not enough.

The beliieve that this industry mostly have straight white males even today is bullshit. I rarely play western games anymore since I think they have become stale. But even I know that this is not the true at all. The last straight white male was maybe Arthur Morgan after that? Before that I do not even know. Divversity is fine but still trying to push there are mostly white males as Protagonists is a straight up lie.

 

[El_Belmondo]

This is false.
Back then, girls loved Lara. I even had some female friends who didn't usually play games go and play the first 2-3 Tomb Raiders, and mostly because Lara was a positive female heroine, strong & sexy.

Even so, you can't deny what audience Tomb Raider was catering to

Not necessarily white, but straight and male that's for sure.

Now, the fact that Lara Croft was a cool character women could identify with, and admire, that's undeniable.

Samus is the same, gamer women who i know that knos Samus admire her, but then you can't deny was Samus ultimately cater to

And let me tell you, i actually don't care, i love my male oriented tillilation, but let's not pretend that women liking a female character doesn't mean that it caters to the opposite audience.

I know girls that actually loves Dead or Alive and we all know the audience of that series ffs.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

This is a fuck you, got mine straight from the book.

No, it from the book of - "why did you stop making things for your core audience". It would be like if the NFL changed the rules of football to better cater to the segment who doesn't like sports and then when the fans complain the media labels sports fans as the bad guys.

Final Fantasy has become the poster child for this, with the main character of Mobius Final Fantasy and FFXII's Vaan as primary examples

No one gives a shit if Square (a Japanese company) gives some eye candy to the ladies as well.

 

[El_Belmondo]

The problem I have with your straight white male argument is that these people are never satisfied. For example E3 2016 I think it was. 67% of the games presented there were lead by female protagonists and people like Anita still went their own agenda saying it is not enough.

The beliieve that this industry mostly have straight white males even today is bullshit. I rarely play western games anymore since I think they have become stale. But even I know that this is not the true at all. The last straight white male was maybe Arthur Morgan after that? Before that I do not even know. Divversity is fine but still trying to push there are mostly white males as Protagonists is a straight up lie.

But Anita isn't satisfied no matter what and i don't care about her.

Sure the industry is changing, but there's still a lot to do, and with that i mean in terms of diversity AND mentality. It's no use to add female/LGBT/PoC leads if we're going to have a Battlefield V or AC:Oddisey situation every single time.

No, it from the book of - "why did you stop making things for your core audience". It would be like if the NFL changed the rules of football to better cater to the segment who doesn't like sports and then when the fans complain the media labels sports fans as the bad guys.

This isn't a good simile in the slightest. The industry isn't obviously going to stop developing games, but it's trying to exapnd the audience catering to people ouside of the usual and there's nothing wrong with that.

Don't forget there are also actual women designers who make attractive characters too. I believe the Hyperdimension Neptunia series was made by Female leads.

But it doesn't count for some reason.

Yes, don't remind me. Thank god i never got into that particular mine field, but a lot tried that card and were dogpiled.

Well, in that thread they dogpile on you for nothing.

 

[Dunki]

Sure the industry is changing, but there's still a lot to do, and with that i mean in terms of diversity AND mentality. It's no use to add female/LGBT/PoC leads if we're going to have a Battlefield V or AC:Oddisey situation every single time.

The battlefield thing was not because of women....... I do nto know how often people have to try to push it like that.

And what was the case with Odessey I heard nothing about it.

You want to to diversity right? Take a look how Indy developers do it. They do not make it their focus marketing. They just do it as something totally normal.

 

[El_Belmondo]

You want to to diversity right? Take a look how Indy developers do it. They do not make it their focus marketing. They just do it as something totally normal.

And that's exactly how we need the AAA publishers to do it too. Sadly the indie market is seen as insignificant so their advances in the issue doesn't matter.

 

[underberg]

GTA? It probably has the most diverse cast of protagonists in gaming, and they are done well.

I couldn’t even name a character in the rest of those games other then Nathan Drake. But that’s the only one out of that whole bunch I’ve played.

All GTA characters are straight male.

Not being able to name any character in those games doesn't mean that protagonists weren't white males/males.

Big AAA games during the previous generation had 90% 20-30 yo straight (mostly white) males as protagonists.

 

[KiteGr]

I'm fairly sure it's because in those instances, females do exist as passive entities largely for the sake of sexual gratification. They're like puppets and I think that's what any vocal critic in the West tends to hate. I've personally never heard women I know complain about sexiness if the character isn't a complete weakling. I don't doubt it happens but I think crappy characters + gratuitous sexiness is the thing people are against. Unfortunately developers don't really get it so have used 'covering up' as some sort of idiotic simple solution.

Ghost in the Shell is a brilliant example to bring up, although I'll have to disagree that the 1995 movie is bad because it's serious. The sexualised art-style of Motoko is well known as a strong deconstruction of female body image. Motoko initially exists as a puppet lacking free-will. In the beginning she has nude scenes and could easily be considered as existing for sexual stimulation, but over the course of the story grows more human-like. The philosophical themes of free will and technology mean she stops being defined by her body (and ergo sexuality). She ends up offering strong characteristics that make her both an excellent hero and an autonomous being. NieR Automata does a similar thing with 2B.

You've said the movie is too serious so maybe you'll disagree but I think this is exactly the point of Matoko (and the American movie is WAY more po-faced by avoiding it!).

radewagon This is perhaps a better example of what I meant when I said games could do more than just covering up tits.

Sorry for the late responce, I had a busy day. (and lost my post among the replies).

I actually LOVED the GitS movie!
Having prized the GitS PS1 game for using Masamune Shirow's art style, I'll be the first one to admit that the movie wouldn't be nearly as good if they had it. Shirow's strong point was the amazingly detailed world building, and Mamoru Oshii was the second genius that filled it with symbolism. If you want to see another of Shirow's work that follows his style and fits like a glove, watch the Anime Ovas Dominion Tank Police. If you search Shirow's work even more, you'll see that these days he does mostly porn.

My point is...
The PS1 game was more Arcade-y than most other GitS media, and since they didn't had any grand phylosofical story, they aimed for the fun side of the series. And that's the key world. Games are after all, supposed to be entertainment.
I hate how anime over-use fanservice, because it's a cheap selling point, and most of the times comes at the cost of a good plot and story.
In games I feel like everything tries to be Politically correct in the recent years, and go to the opposite direction, even when there is zero effort in the sophisticated aspects like the story. There is only one Yoko Taro after all.

Regardless, we are both off topic.
We are supposed to be talking about western games, and to that, I can't think anythink other than the Lara Croft or the occasional crappy PS2 game back in the days. Westerners rarely did fan-service well, and the few that I've seen was usually distasteful and/or unappealing.

 

[Dunki]

And that's exactly how we need the AAA publishers to do it too. Sadly the indie market is seen as insignificant so their advances in the issue doesn't matter.

Just do not do it for the marketing and you are fine. And with Battlefield they tried to play some victim card even though it was never aout MA women in Battlefield but about the presentation, they way they did it etc.

hell there is a whole video about the game how they rewrite history presenting the french soldiers as utterly racist while the black soldiers are high level moral not even killing the fleeing enemy while they brutally murdered their own folk before. Battlefield tried to play we are woke game and lost.

 

[InterMusketeer]

This isn't a good simile in the slightest. The industry isn't obviously going to stop developing games, but it's trying to exapnd the audience catering to people ouside of the usual and there's nothing wrong with that.

But that wasn't what he said. He never said they would stop doing football (or develop games) but that things are changed about the core product to appeal to a new audience, alienating the current fans in the process. And that's exactly what we're seeing here, as developers have all but stopped producing certain kinds of content, probably out of fear of outrage and accusations of sexism or racism, or because of an agenda to make progressive games and force that political view on the players. At least, that's the premise of this thread, and no one has presented any evidence showing otherwise.

 

[Dunki]

Even so, you can't deny what audience Tomb Raider was catering to

Not necessarily white, but straight and male that's for sure.

Now, the fact that Lara Croft was a cool character women could identify with, and admire, that's undeniable.

Samus is the same, gamer women who i know that knos Samus admire her, but then you can't deny was Samus ultimately cater to



And let me tell you, i actually don't care, i love my male oriented tillilation, but let's not pretend that women liking a female character doesn't mean that it caters to the opposite audience.

I know girls that actually loves Dead or Alive and we all know the audience of that series ffs.

This was never an official Design by the Team as far as I know.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Japan does both, I mean have you guys seen this show?

There is no sexualize females but there LOTS of sexualize males.

Spoiler: NSFW

Golden Kamuy is fujo bait. As somebody who has been reading the manga for the last 2+ years I can confirm. Even more fujo than JoJo and that is fine tbh. Both manga's have alot of humor and wtf moments to make up for it.

 

[ROMhack]

Sorry for the late responce, I had a busy day. (and lost my post among the replies).

I actually LOVED the GitS movie!
Having prized the GitS PS1 game for using Masamune Shirow's art style, I'll be the first one to admit that the movie wouldn't be nearly as good if they had it. Shirow's strong point was the amazingly detailed world building, and Mamoru Oshii was the second genius that filled it with symbolism. If you want to see another of Shirow's work that follows his style and fits like a glove, watch the Anime Ovas Dominion Tank Police. If you search Shirow's work even more, you'll see that these days he does mostly porn.

My point is...
The PS1 game was more Arcade-y than most other GitS media, and since they didn't had any grand phylosofical story, they aimed for the fun side of the series. And that's the key world. Games are after all, supposed to be entertainment.
I hate how anime over-use fanservice, because it's a cheap selling point, and most of the times comes at the cost of a good plot and story.
In games I feel like everything tries to be Politically correct in the recent years, and go to the opposite direction, even when there is zero effort in the sophisticated aspects like the story. There is only one Yoko Taro after all.

Regardless, we are both off topic.
We are supposed to be talking about western games, and to that, I can't think anythink other than the Lara Croft or the occasional crappy PS2 game back in the days. Westerners rarely did fan-service well, and the few that I've seen was usually distasteful and/or unappealing.

Thanks for the reply. I've seen Dominion Tank Police OVAs but didn't know it was based on something by Shirow.

And yeah, I don't think Western games are particularly well known for fan service either.

 

[radewagon]

OP just gave you an example of the opposite (portraying a man as a doll for female amusement).

It's like left leaning people can't grasp the concept of double standards.

Really... That's what you think that is? You think "undies spidey" is there just to appeal to the ladies? Okay. Have fun being right leaning?

It sounds like you are incorrectly claiming that a non-analogous situation proves the existence of a double standard. Not saying there isn't one, BTW, just saying your evidence is a poor example of it.

 

[The Chairman]

Western devs seems to be afraid of fiminists. this becomes clear to me when i saw this interview between Anita and the Co-Creative Director of Arkane Studios who made the Dishonored games and Prey 2.




She tell him that she was critical of Dishonored 1 because it was "not good to women" so he panicked and told her that he will take her comments to his Grave and he makes an oath of allegiance to her that all his future games like Dishonored 2, Prey 2 and Dishonored expansion will be fiminist games.

What i find funny here is that all of these 3 games failed miserably.

 

[ROMhack]

Western devs seems to be afraid of fiminists. this becomes clear to me when i saw this interview between Anita and the Co-Creative Director of Arkane Studios who made the Dishonored games and Prey 2.




She tell him that she was critical of Dishonored 1 because it was "not good to women" so he panicked and told her that he will take her comments to his Grave and he makes an oath of allegiance to her that all his future games like Dishonored 2, Prey 2 and Dishonored expansion will be fiminist games.

What i find funny here is that all of these 3 games failed miserably.

I didn't know about this but it totally checks out. Arkane are a special bunch and I've long thought they make some of the least interesting games in all of mainstream gaming. Dishonored is such a bland series and it beggars belief given how much attention they put into the visuals. Prey too, albeit to a lesser extent.

They definitely seem to be lacking something, maybe it's the fear.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

This isn't a good simile in the slightest. The industry isn't obviously going to stop developing games, but it's trying to exapnd the audience catering to people ouside of the usual and there's nothing wrong with that.

It is exactly the same idea. If the gaming industry decides to alienate their core audience and their sales suffer for it, who is at fault? Do you think NFL fans would be happy if the players had to perform ballet after every 4th down?

Big AAA games during the previous generation had 90% 20-30 yo straight (mostly white) males as protagonists

You mean big AAA games that don't have a character creation process and have a human main character. And I bet the percentage is lower than 90%. Western developed female protags this gen include Lara Croft, Faith Connors, Ellie, and Aloy, just off the top of my head.

In how many games does the sexual preference of the player character even matter or have relevance to the story? Call of Duty isn't a dating simulator.

And yeah, the majority of western developed games are going to have white characters because that is the largest percentage of the player base in the west, and since many of our stories take place in western countries, the characters are going to match the surroundings.

 

[frogx]

Let games be games again

 

[petran79]

Irony is that when it comes to non-scifi pregnancy and motherhood, all video games become suddenly affectionate and ultraprotective and all future video game mothers return to stereotypes. Both east and west! Very few exceptions (Catlady).
Even some things have limits to inject social theories in video games.

I shudder to think what would happen today if you were allowed to hit your pregnant wife, even in a cartoony way, like in Twinsen's Odyssey.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Every time I think of an example I remember that the thread is about western games.

I think Persona 5 handles “cute and sexy females” perfectly, but obviously that’s not a western game