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[benjipwns]

Meanwhile some schools still struggle to update their 10 year old textbooks.

Explain to me why education should be on the state level again?

You think the feds aren't going to operate like this? Nobody flits from fad to fad with none of them ever dying off for good like the feds.

And you'll have President Palin mandating creationism.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Wow, America really is rich isn't it? Ipad for kids?

It's okay they get to pay it back 100 fold when they want further education once they finish highschool

 

[Cagey]

I worked for a charter school network that served the poorest areas of NYC, and iPads were loaned to all students above a certain grade (elementary school on up). They were fantastic tools to deliver content, measure student progress, and help determine macro and micro trends among the students in where they succeeded or struggled.

Kids don't need them? Sure, 100% true. Kids can't benefit tremendously from them? Laughable.

 

[entremet]

I have yet to see how computers enhance learning other than khan academy videos. And that is a basically a video.

Can you give me an example of how it enhances learning? From my experience they are mostly used to fuck around and distract kids from what the teacher is talking about.

Education is very different now. Yes there is a lecture portion, but there are free activity portions for classwork. That's when these are used. Much more stuff is collaborative as well. Traditional lecture style only teaching is on its way out.

 

[Cat Party]

I support investing heavily in technology for kids, but iPads seem overpriced to me. Though I suppose the walled garden is preferable in this situation.

 

[Zoe]

I support investing heavily in technology for kids, but iPads seem overpriced to me. Though I suppose the walled garden is preferable in this situation.

It's too walled off. It's a pain for IT to monitor and lock down.

 

[deviant1]

This is only happening because it's an high profile school district. LAUSD is the biggest outside of NYC's school system in the US.

But deployments of tablets, including iPads, have been done successfully by many districts.

But anyone in school IT deployment could tell you this was botched from the beginning.

This case was certainly botched, but deploying iPads in a school district is still a monumental nightmare.

I work in a K-8 district and we started deploying iPad carts 2 years ago because my boss has a total hard on for anything Apple. Within a year, most of the carts sat unused by everyone but the lowest grade levels where they were used for simple Apps and edutainment type stuff.

Everything about deploying and managing them is just difficult and iPads are just not the right answer for school work. Producing any actual work like documents or spreadsheets and dealing with a shared user environment is just not what iPads were ever designed for. Also locking them down is pretty difficult since the users can just add an Apple ID and go wild changing any settings and installing whatever they want. Even with some of the management software solutions out there for iPads, there's no way to really lock them down and make the distribution of apps any easier or better.

Last year we setup a Google domain and our district piloted a 1:1 program with Chromebooks for just our 6th grade classes and it worked near flawlessly. We've fully made the move to Google Apps for Education and this year we're moving from Exchange to Gmail and we've now purchased Chromebooks for all Middle School students (Grades 6,7,8). All of our 4th and 5th grade classrooms have 10 Chromebooks per room to be shared, and our iPad carts have now been relegated to being used in our K-3 grades for the simple stuff.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I don't see how computers enhance learning either.

Eventually it comes down to students and teachers working their asses off. There is no app to get around it.

Because the interface for computers is more appropriate to the functionality and internal design than the interface of a tablet.

A computer is Boolean logic. Ones and zeroes. A keyboard maps nicely to that - press a key, display its associated symbol. Teach someone how to type, they work within the limitations of the computer.

On the other hand, people write with a series of strokes and continuous movements. Writing on a screen, you need to create software which recognizes and interprets a series of strokes and movements, and predict heuristically what a series of strokes is supposed to represent based on what has already been input (This is why auto-correct has caught on - it has to be designed as part of the tablet interface already - if someone's i looks like their l, software has to differentiate based on context. Writing "parcel," the software sees "p" "a" "r" "c" "e" "i/l" and chooses "l." But writing "ceiling", the software might see "c" "e" "i/l" and at that point, it assumes you're trying to write either ceiling, or cello, but probably ceiling in most contexes, so it decides the key you're writing is "i".)

So you see, instead of the user being taught how to work within the limitations of the machine and interact with the machine in a way that both the machine and the user can understand (a keyboard), a tablet interface tries to bring the machine up to the capabilities of the human using it. But a tablet doesn't know how to write. Writing the character "a" doesn't map nicely to a binary function. Determining the strokes for "a" versus "e" doesn't, either.

That's just one example.

 

[rokkerkory]

Terrible to take advantage of our kids

 

[davepoobond]

Terrible to take advantage of our kids

It's not the kids that are being taken advantage of. It's the taxpayers. The kids are only caught in the middle of it

 

[kswiston]

In the industry this is called 1:1. So each kid gets a device. The devices are centrally managed so students can't install stuff.

There is a lot of content creation done with them. I heard of a school where students did oral presentations--elementary school kids--and taped themselves on their iPads and were given feedback on how to improve.

Pretty awesome stuff. Lots of dinosaurs in this thread. These are tools. How you use the tools is the important part. Most deployments give students agency on taking care of them and such.

I can see having 2-3 class sets of devices in an elementary school that can be signed out for a handful of periods a week, but these devices are basically garbage after 3 or so years of shared student use, and at $600 per iPad, outfitting every student in a school/school board seems like a expensive waste of resources.

There are better ways to use tech in the classroom than give everyone an iPad.

 

[kirblar]

I worked for a charter school network that served the poorest areas of NYC, and iPads were loaned to all students above a certain grade (elementary school on up). They were fantastic tools to deliver content, measure student progress, and help determine macro and micro trends among the students in where they succeeded or struggled.

Kids don't need them? Sure, 100% true. Kids can't benefit tremendously from them? Laughable.

It's more "Is an Ipad really the best and/or most cost-effective way to do this?"

 

[bionic77]

Because the interface for computers is more appropriate to the functionality and internal design than the interface of a tablet.

A computer is Boolean logic. Ones and zeroes. A keyboard maps nicely to that - press a key, display its associated symbol. Teach someone how to type, they work within the limitations of the computer.

On the other hand, people write with a series of strokes and continuous movements. Writing on a screen, you need to create software which recognizes and interprets a series of strokes and movements, and predict heuristically what a series of strokes is supposed to represent based on what has already been input (This is why auto-correct has caught on - it has to be designed as part of the tablet interface already - if someone's i looks like their l, software has to differentiate based on context. Writing "parcel," the software sees "p" "a" "r" "c" "e" "i/l" and chooses "l." But writing "ceiling", the software might see "c" "e" "i/l" and at that point, it assumes you're trying to write either ceiling, or cello, but probably ceiling in most contexes, so it decides the key you're writing is "i".)

So you see, instead of the user being taught how to work within the limitations of the machine and interact with the machine in a way that both the machine and the user can understand (a keyboard), a tablet interface tries to bring the machine up to the capabilities of the human using it. But a tablet doesn't know how to write. Writing the character "a" doesn't map nicely to a binary function. Determining the strokes for "a" versus "e" doesn't, either.

That's just one example.

I was not comparing them to tablets.

I am comparing them to books and a pad of paper.

What advantage do they have over that? Granted I am not in school anymore but I grew up when they were trying to integrate computers into the classroom (in the 80s) and it was always just something extra. The actual learning was always accomplished the old fashioned way. Other than computer programming we only used computers to fuck around (ie Oregon Trail, typing games, etc).

Has the software actually improved to the point where using a laptop/desktop is actually advantageous in the classroom?

I am not saying that computers are not useful in school. I have personally used computers for research, programming, math programs, etc. But that was always higher education,

I just don't see how they are going to help younger students in primary school. I feel like smaller classrooms and more teachers with better training would be far more effective.

 

[Rentahamster]

Shogmaster redeemed

 

[Cizeta-Moroder]

Give them customized Raspberry Pis that operate as dumb terminals for the school's server. Cheap, flexible and disciplined, perfect for schools.

 

[AbsolutBro]

You think the feds aren't going to operate like this? Nobody flits from fad to fad with none of them ever dying off for good like the feds.

And you'll have President Palin mandating creationism.

At least we can balance out/supplement the funding for schools the way block granting is done. There are a ton of poor schools that can barely afford books for their kids. How on earth are those kids going to get a fair shot at education, compared to some kid whose school almost shits money way on iPads?

And really, the fed doesn't "flit from fad to fad", they pick one and stick with it for ages because getting shit changed sometimes literally takes an act of congress. I mean, shit, lots of Departments were still using Blackberry devices until last year!

 

[Dany]

some meat eaters can be real dicks too.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Don't need an iPad to teach kids.

They're just going to crack them and surf for games and porn.

 

[-COOLIO-]

80 dollar Chinese android tablets makes way more sense

 

[RastaMentality]

Although iPads aren't the way to go, technology being fully integrated in classes is pretty much inevitable. I just hope it's done in a way that actually improves the educational experience.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Although iPads aren't the way to go, technology being fully integrated in classes is pretty much inevitable. I just hope it's done in a way that actually improves the educational experience.

That's sometimes a problem. Depending on how the tech is implemented. Just handing kids an iPad doesn't improve education.

 

[NotBacon]

Why the hell wouldn't they get Chromebooks? They're half the price, have a keyboard, and are far more functional for education. Wtf.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

The digital part of education is already becoming a scam in higher education, so I see that it will eventually be a scam for younger students. For instance, this semester we are required to use this years updated Biology book that costs $300 + $100 online code fee. We could have just as easily used last years book alone that costs $40 used, the online stuff is mainly useless. Even the updates to the book make up only about 15% of the total updates, yet the course is designed so that the homework required focuses only on the updates.

And another thing, I took some math classes that were done on computers at the school, and at home. They stuck like 4 classes into one room and only had 1 teacher and an aid. They did this to save money, the problem is it short changes my education. I mean fuck, if your going to do this I might as well get college credit for watching YouTube cat videos. The point is that I worry that some states will use this technology as a way to save money to the point it makes education worse instead of better.

 

[kirblar]

I was not comparing them to tablets.

I am comparing them to books and a pad of paper.

What advantage do they have over that? Granted I am not in school anymore but I grew up when they were trying to integrate computers into the classroom (in the 80s) and it was always just something extra. The actual learning was always accomplished the old fashioned way. Other than computer programming we only used computers to fuck around (ie Oregon Trail, typing games, etc).

Has the software actually improved to the point where using a laptop/desktop is actually advantageous in the classroom?

I am not saying that computers are not useful in school. I have personally used computers for research, programming, math programs, etc. But that was always higher education,

I just don't see how they are going to help younger students in primary school. I feel like smaller classrooms and more teachers with better training would be far more effective.

You need to get the kids typing, get them used to computer interfaces, etc. If they don't have a PC/internet access at home, these are skills that they're going to develop later in life than their classmates, and they're skills that could potentially kneecap their potential, given the necessity of PC operation in the modern school and workplace.

 

[Alchemy]

Tablets need to replace school books eventually, the cost of those books is fucking absurd.

 

[erawsd]

No surprise.

Deasy and the board went ahead with this even though teachers, IT staff, and parents begged them to pump the brakes. Its happening again with the MSIS rollout, the committee advised against it and Deasy and his puppets decide to do it anyway.

 

[Faddy]

Tablets need to replace school books eventually, the cost of those books is fucking absurd.

The cost of the material has nothing to do with the delivery method. Textbook publishers make a fortune whether paper or digital.

 

[davepoobond]

Tablets need to replace school books eventually, the cost of those books is fucking absurd.

Ebooks will cost the same if not more than regular textbooks in the future.

 

[Davis_McGee]

Ebooks will cost the same if not more than regular textbooks in the future.

They already do. You're likely to get 10-15% off at best for a digital copy of an academic text. They're almost always worse value for money because they can easily have DRM or less-than-preferable commercial terms (e.g. redistribution/lifetime) applied.

Plus let's face it, there's nothing stopping a school using second hand or previous edition books. Arithmetic doesn't change year-on-year.

 

[Dart]

Our Junior high students use iPads & our high school students use windows surface rt.

They still have to take typing courses though.

 

[spyder_ur]

Not defending the contract, Apple, or especially Pearson here, but the iPad, when used right, is one of the better educational tools ever invented. The simplicity, reliability, durability, and software combine are great for learning. I say this as a former teacher and an uncle.

The paper and pen crowd here are laughable.

 

[GabDX]

As an instructor, if cost wasn't an issue, a Windows-based system like the Surface is the best choice out there considering the sheer number of software/utilities available to educators and students. The practical alternative is a cheap laptop.

And OneNote is indeed one of the best note-taking programs out there.

Pen and paper is pretty damn good too and barely cost anything.

 

[samn]

We've seen a bunch of people here who have experience with iPads in education who say they're really useful tools. And on the other side, we have people who haven't got that insight who are making a snap judgement they're a waste of money because 'common sense'.

 

[GabDX]

Tablets need to replace school books eventually, the cost of those books is fucking absurd.

You think the PDF versions will be much cheaper! Haha!

 

[Pickles Spill]

We've seen a bunch of people here who have experience with iPads in education who say they're really useful tools. And on the other side, we have people who haven't got that insight who are making a snap judgement they're a waste of money because 'common sense'.

People aren't saying they're bad, they're saying that they're not the most cost-effective/most useful devices out there.
Also:

This case was certainly botched, but deploying iPads in a school district is still a monumental nightmare.

I work in a K-8 district and we started deploying iPad carts 2 years ago because my boss has a total hard on for anything Apple. Within a year, most of the carts sat unused by everyone but the lowest grade levels where they were used for simple Apps and edutainment type stuff.

Everything about deploying and managing them is just difficult and iPads are just not the right answer for school work. Producing any actual work like documents or spreadsheets and dealing with a shared user environment is just not what iPads were ever designed for. Also locking them down is pretty difficult since the users can just add an Apple ID and go wild changing any settings and installing whatever they want. Even with some of the management software solutions out there for iPads, there's no way to really lock them down and make the distribution of apps any easier or better.

Last year we setup a Google domain and our district piloted a 1:1 program with Chromebooks for just our 6th grade classes and it worked near flawlessly. We've fully made the move to Google Apps for Education and this year we're moving from Exchange to Gmail and we've now purchased Chromebooks for all Middle School students (Grades 6,7,8). All of our 4th and 5th grade classrooms have 10 Chromebooks per room to be shared, and our iPad carts have now been relegated to being used in our K-3 grades for the simple stuff.

 

[Dart]

Not defending the contract, Apple, or especially Pearson here, but the iPad, when used right, is one of the better educational tools ever invented. The simplicity, reliability, durability, and software combine are great for learning. I say this as a former teacher and an uncle.

The paper and pen crowd here are laughable.

Agreed. Conservative GAF strikes again.

 

[thefit]

We've seen a bunch of people here who have experience with iPads in education who say they're really useful tools. And on the other side, we have people who haven't got that insight who are making a snap judgement they're a waste of money because 'common sense'.

My kids use ipods, android tablets and chromes books at their elementary that get assigned them many of their assignments are online based now so they are useful and will be even more common place in schools in the future. I think your right that a lot of the reactionary outrage is from past generations that see those devices as entertainment and don't fully grasp that everything is going to be digital in the future. Spending money on new textbooks every couple of years is more wasteful in my opinion its dated technology and book information sometimes becomes irrelevant or outdated fast were as with digital its always up to date.

A lot of the outrage on the radio here in socal has a racial tinge too its like omg how dare one of the biggest school districts, which also happens to have a lot of black and latino poor students, dare spend money on them they're all going to steal them!

 

[FunkyMunkey]

I'm all for integrating current technology into schools, but fucking ipads? Lol. Why not get one of the million cheaper, better alternatives. And maybe something with a keyboard to actually help, I don't know, teach typing? Do these schools think learning how to use apps and navigate the hyper-simplistic iPad OS is going to help with computer-related skills? I agree it can to a degree, but it's nothing compared to an actual laptop-based OS. I can just imagine the job interview:

"So, it says here you have a lot of experience with technology. Care to elaborate? What's your WPM, and can you do any debugging or anything?"

"WPM? What? And what's debugging? No, but I am really fast on an iPad and iPhone and know how to install apps! I have played candy crush."

I have family who teach in schools integrating this kind of stuff, and they are now leaning towards chromebooks (which is still an app-based OS) because of costs. After using tablets for a couple years, the kids were tested for computer-proficiency and the ones who couldn't do much with computers beforehand still couldn't afterwards.

Not defending the contract, Apple, or especially Pearson here, but the iPad, when used right, is one of the better educational tools ever invented. The simplicity, reliability, durability, and software combine are great for learning. I say this as a former teacher and an uncle.

The paper and pen crowd here are laughable.

It's a great learning tool, as are other tablets. But it won't help increase regular computer proficiency. You can download a ton of great music apps, drawing apps, math apps, etc, but as far as familiarizing kids with useful tech, it falls short. When the kid needs to write a research paper all of a sudden, knowing how to move apps around and install/uninstall them isn't going to do anything for them. Documents, spreadsheets, data migration, etc? Forget it.

This case was certainly botched, but deploying iPads in a school district is still a monumental nightmare.

I work in a K-8 district and we started deploying iPad carts 2 years ago because my boss has a total hard on for anything Apple. Within a year, most of the carts sat unused by everyone but the lowest grade levels where they were used for simple Apps and edutainment type stuff.

Everything about deploying and managing them is just difficult and iPads are just not the right answer for school work. Producing any actual work like documents or spreadsheets and dealing with a shared user environment is just not what iPads were ever designed for. Also locking them down is pretty difficult since the users can just add an Apple ID and go wild changing any settings and installing whatever they want. Even with some of the management software solutions out there for iPads, there's no way to really lock them down and make the distribution of apps any easier or better.

Last year we setup a Google domain and our district piloted a 1:1 program with Chromebooks for just our 6th grade classes and it worked near flawlessly. We've fully made the move to Google Apps for Education and this year we're moving from Exchange to Gmail and we've now purchased Chromebooks for all Middle School students (Grades 6,7,8). All of our 4th and 5th grade classrooms have 10 Chromebooks per room to be shared, and our iPad carts have now been relegated to being used in our K-3 grades for the simple stuff.

This what my anecdotal experience has been. The iPads are being steered towards early-ish child development for the fun, colorful, learning apps, while the chromebooks are steered towards middle and high school.

I agree with your concerns about costs and further tech/typing training being needed, but my point is simply that these are a great teaching and learning tool when used right. The usability is unrivaled. Whether they are a wise investment for this school district is another story altogether.

Oh yeah I agree for the most part, I kind of jumbled my post together haha. I definitely think tablets (iPad in particular) are great learning tools, just more useful (for helping technological proficiency) to a younger bracket of kids in comparison to high school and such. I believe, and many districts are finding, that a physical keyboard and less bare-bones OS are more beneficial to older kids who will be entering the workforce/college soon, where app-based computing for academia or a computer-based career is more niche than a full-fledged OS. But there are some programs that do absolutely benefit more from being an app on a tablet. Some of the music-learning ones in particular blew me away a few years ago.

 

[GameGuru59]

Possibly the most ridiculous and ostentatious waste of money by a school district I've ever heard of.

Seconded. The stupid is strong with this idea that kids need Ipads/Tablets to learn shit. Maybe I could see giving a kid a PC, but only if the school district used it to teach programming or something.

One defense is that you could put books and other learning stuff on the Ipad, but why not go with the cheaper Kindle or Android tablet?

 

[spyder_ur]

I'm all for integrating current technology into schools, but fucking ipads? Lol. Why not get one of the million cheaper, better alternatives. And maybe something with a keyboard to actually help, I don't know, teach typing? Do these schools think learning how to use apps and navigate the hyper-simplistic iPad OS is going to help with computer-related skills? I agree it can to a degree, but it's nothing compared to an actual laptop-based OS. I can just imagine the job interview:

"So, it says here you have a lot of experience with technology. Care to elaborate? What's your WPM, and can you do any debugging or anything?"

"WPM? What? And what's debugging? No, but I am really fast on an iPad and iPhone and know how to install apps! I have played candy crush."

I have family who teach in schools integrating this kind of stuff, and they are now leaning towards chromebooks (which is still an app-based OS) because of costs. After using tablets for a couple years, the kids were tested for computer-proficiency and the ones who couldn't do much with computers beforehand still couldn't afterwards.

It's a great learning tool, as are other tablets. But it won't help increase regular computer proficiency. You can download a ton of great music apps, drawing apps, math apps, etc, but as far as familiarizing kids with useful tech, it falls short. When the kid needs to write a research paper all of a sudden, knowing how to move apps around and install/uninstall them isn't going to do anything for them. Documents, spreadsheets, data migration, etc? Forget it.

I believe you are thinking a bit too narrowly here. They can help to teach reading. They can help to teach math. They are especially fantastic for children with learning disabilities or ESL students, of which this district has many.

Good luck giving a young child a Chromebook and trying to get anything done. No they are not a paper writing device - I hope that's not how they are intended to be used. And anybody arguing that paper and pen are almost free should take a peek at some of the reports about school district expenditures - they have never exactly been known as frugal.

I agree with your concerns about costs and further tech/typing training being needed, but my point is simply that these are a great teaching and learning tool when used right. The usability is unrivaled. Whether they are a wise investment for this school district is another story altogether.

 

[sadceph2001]

Great, now they can get Chromebooks - a far wiser option.

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

I don't see a problem with this. Would be great preparation for taking classes in college.

Yeah, you need to know how to navigate twitter & buy from the app store, so you can be college material.

 

[Cipherr]

Great, now they can get Chromebooks - a far wiser option.

Wouldnt something Windows based be better in terms of educational ecosystem? I know Google has been working on that with Chromebooks and ChromeOS in the edu field but I still think windows is likely way ahead in that regard.

Its funny to me because something like those fucking surfaces with the keyboard pads are probably the best method here, yet they probably aren't even considering them.

 

[Dead Man]

Good riddance.

I'm all for technology in students' hands, but iPads aren't the answer.

Pretty much.

 

[Timedog]

A tablet isn't progress. Nothing about a tablet enhances a students ability to learn over a computer.

It's why offices aren't dumping out their desktops and replacing them with tablets.

I disagree with this completely. Touch engages you in a way that typing and mousepad do not. Learning doesn't just come from hearing or seeing. Depending on the student and how their brain works there could be a world of difference.

That said, I think this is overly expensive and chromebooks would be much better from both a cost and versatility standpoint.

 

[googleplex]

They could get twice as many android pads for the same price.

 

[sadceph2001]

Wouldnt something Windows based be better in terms of educational ecosystem? I know Google has been working on that with Chromebooks and ChromeOS in the edu field but I still think windows is likely way ahead in that regard.

Its funny to me because something like those fucking surfaces with the keyboard pads are probably the best method here, yet they probably aren't even considering them.

Absolutely, I wasn't really taking into account the necessary skills that are developed through using Windows. Discounting that point, I would certainly recommend Chromebooks based purely on usability and price.

Surfaces would probably be ideal, but aren't they still rather pricey?

 

[linsivvi]

"I believe we would have to make sure that your bid is the lowest one," wrote Aquino, who was an executive with a Pearson affiliate before joining L.A. Unified.

This guy is corrupted to the core.

ehh... *so much hate* *smh*

Last year's GAF thread (06-19-2013) My tax dollars being fucking wasted: LA spends $30M on iPads for schools.

I remember that thread. *snigger*

Just the usual suspects.

 

[mrklaw]

you gave two pieces of software (even if the two most widely used). The point is you don't know their planned curriculum, training, or other currently licensed software. To just say "well android has these two apps" isn't anywhere near as definitive as you are making it out to be.

edit - and apple has always gotten in at the educational level because of the fact that it was always vertical from the hardware down to the application software. it's the same reason they STILL get in at the education level. A lot of that was offset during the 00s with the computer consulting firms handling vendor and support contracts as well.. but there is still a cut there to be had by those firms that apple can still undercut simply by being vertical.

if you're about to spend $500m on equipment for your schools, you could probably get the subcontractor to spend some money making android versions of their ios apps..

For schools, IMO laptops are a simpler solution. You want affordable and rugged. Ideally you get parents to provide laptops for kids at home, and then subsidise with laptops for those households that can't afford them (like with free school meals).

I get the initial appeal of tablets - its like a little book but the pages never get torn. And they are interactive. But it still seems a long way from being a financially smart move IMO considering the likely cost of replacement/repair for thousands of ipads Vs basic books.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Bumping this.

The LA School District is seeking a refund from Apple/Pearson, and might possibly sue them. Apparently the iPads have been a giant clusterfuck.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ipad-curriculum-refund-20150415-story.html