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[Fixed2BeBroken]

Not the same because the problem of Chalices is not the concept but some of it's implementation.

The analogy with a bad game doesn't work because unlike a bad game chalices have good gameplay and enemies.

The only problem with Chalice dungeons is that there are too much unnecesary Depths. They should have been endgame only. Make them only 1-2 depths at most, and always root based for BB2/DS4 (I don't think neither will ever happen) and problem solved.

Good gameplay and enemies? you mean the same spiders and skeletons you fight over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

It's more than just implementation, and the analogy does work. because in order to get to the "good stuff" you HAVE to play through the bullshit.

Bad game design is bad game design. period. You can enjoy it, but it's still bad.

 

[Ferr986]

Good gameplay and enemies? you mean the same spiders and skeletons you fight over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

It's more than just implementation, and the analogy does work. because in order to get to the "good stuff" you HAVE to play through the bullshit.

Bad game design is bad game design. period. You can enjoy it, but it's still bad.

And watchers, ghost girls, giants with cannons, knight zombies, the heave metal screaming dudes, the witches.... Not counting base game enemies like werewolfes, brainsuckers or emissaries.

Of course the regular ptumerians are more frequent, but same like in base game you fight the same yahrnam villagers for half the game. There's actually a lot of different enemies in Chalices.

And I still say, a bad game is the one that simply plays bad. Chalices don't play bad. If Chalices are a bad game then Bloodborne is a bad game, because they share the same gameplay.

Chalices are a flawed design, it's the first time FROM does procedural generated dungeons and it shows. But IMO it's far from bad if you take what Chalices are. Just badly implemented with a useless stuff in them (lower depths and material farming).

 

[Opa-Pa]

People hate Chalice Dungeons because the series is known for its top-notch level design and these are procedurally generated and the algorithm isn't very remarkable so they all feel very samey and simplistic, it's simple.

I still don't think they're utter trash, but the quality of the experience is abysmal compared to the base games for obvious reasons. I still think there's merit in them if you have done everything in the main game and want more of the great combat, though, there's some decent challenge in them and they're mandatory for the platinum anyways, so might as well give them a try.

I thought they were alright for the most part, except the one where your HP is halved, I like challenge but getting one-shot by fucking spiders sucked and the bosses there were more irritating than actually hard. But yeah, it wasn't as awful as people made it out to be, and getting closure by beating Yharnam was worth all the hassle in my case.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

My favourite is definitely Maria though, wanted to fight her again immediately after winning.

I know that feeling. I just want to keep fighting Maria. Such an amazing boss fight. 1 vs 1, Hunter against Hunter.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

And watchers, ghost girls, giants with cannons, knight zombies, the heave metal screaming dudes, the witches.... Not counting base game enemies like werewolfes, brainsuckers or emissaries.

Of course the regular ptumerians are more frequent, but same like in base game you fight the same yahrnam villagers for half the game. There's actually a lot of different enemies in Chalices.

And I still say, a bad game is the one that simply plays bad. Chalices don't play bad. If Chalices are a bad game then Bloodborne is a bad game, because they share the same gameplay.

you do realize level design is a big part of game design and gameplay. Level design effects gameplay in a large way. Bad level design can destroy good gameplay easily. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you. and playing cut and paste bad level design over and over can make good gameplay within that unbearable.

Listen to that podcast I linked. If you can argue against EVERY point they make (there are TONS) that show why its bad game design. then fine. but I doubt you can or will.

And I still say, a bad game is the one that simply plays bad. Chalices don't play bad. If Chalices are a bad game then Bloodborne is a bad game, because they share the same gameplay.

This is just FACTUALLY wrong and it's like looking at it as if it were black and white. Surely you are more intelligent than this and you understand that the base game and some tacked on copy and paste bullshit, while on the surface may appear to be the same due to the combat remaining the same, but in actuality are very different due to everything surrounding the combat being completely different.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

And watchers, ghost girls, giants with cannons, knight zombies, the heave metal screaming dudes, the witches.... Not counting base game enemies like werewolfes, brainsuckers or emissaries.

Of course the regular ptumerians are more frequent, but same like in base game you fight the same yahrnam villagers for half the game. There's actually a lot of different enemies in Chalices.

And I still say, a bad game is the one that simply plays bad. Chalices don't play bad. If Chalices are a bad game then Bloodborne is a bad game, because they share the same gameplay.

Chalices are a flawed design, it's the first time FROM does procedural generated dungeons and it shows. But IMO it's far from bad if you take what Chalices are. Just badly implemented with a useless stuff in them (lower depths and material farming).

Agreed. The level design is more simplistic, though I like the heavier use of traps, but the combat is still excellent and some of the best boss fights in the game are in the dungeons.
Though why are we arguing about Chalice Dungeons in a thread about The Old Hunters exactly?

 

[MMaRsu]

Currently going through the DLC myself and I'm stuck on Lady Maria, probably because I did a dumb Arcane build just to use all the spells (40 Arcane was a mistake, it's nothing but trash). It feels like I've hit a brick wall so I decided to start a new playthrough to do a proper strength/agility build.

What lvl are you? Love to help you out, best fight in the game

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Agreed. The level design is more simplistic, though I like the heavier use of traps, but the combat is still excellent and some of the best boss fights in the game are in the dungeons.
Though why are we arguing about Chalice Dungeons in a thread about The Old Hunters exactly?

because someone asked if they should do chalice dungeons for lore reasons and i said hell no, dont do it, they suck.

and because some people feel because bloodborne is so amazing, that you cant dislike anything in the game even if its some tacked on copy and paste bullshit, otherwise you dislike bloodborne as a whole which is just sheer stupidty.

"BLOODBORNE IS PERFECTION, you can't dislike anything about it otherwise you don't really like bloodborne"

like really?
its just stupid.

 

[MMaRsu]

because someone asked if they should do chalice dungeons for lore reasons and i said hell no, dont do it and that they sucked.

and because some people feel because bloodborne is so amazing, that you cant dislike anything in the game even if its some tacked on copy and paste bullshit, otherwise you dislike bloodborne as a whole which is just sheer stupidty.

"BLOODBORNE IS PERFECTION, you can't dislike anything about it otherwise you don't really like bloodborne"

like really?
its just stupid.

Did you even read his posts tho?

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Did you even read his posts tho?

well i responded to them by reading it tho?

I dont understand this post.

 

[Laughing Banana]

One thing is for sure.

I'd rather do my Trophy hunting in Chalices instead of doing Silver Knights over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

 

[Screaming Meat]

I like Chalice Dungeons. They're the equivalent of Challenge Rooms. They have a few nasty surprises too.

 

[MMaRsu]

well i responded to them by reading it tho?

I dont understand this post.

I meant Ferr986 posts explaining why the Chalice Dungeons arent bad perse.

I mean, you going off the hinge about Bloodborne being perfect was kinda funny, but I havent seen those type of posts here.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

I meant Ferr986 posts explaining why the Chalice Dungeons arent bad perse.

I mean, you going off the hinge about Bloodborne being perfect was kinda funny, but I havent seen those type of posts here.

I mean, obviously i was exaggerating and just playing off these two points which maybe you just didn't read?

Indeed. Someone who "hates" Chalice Dungeons doesn't really like Bloodborne as much as they say.

If Chalices are a bad game then Bloodborne is a bad game,

which are just dumb statements to me and lack true merit.

And yes, I read his posts, and disagreed with him and not only offered reasons why but linked a whole entire podcast that audibly expresses just about the samethings I feel about chalice dungeons in vast detail.
did you read my posts and listen to that podcast tho?
I <3 bloodborne, have spent a little over 200+ hours with it so far during the short time I have owned it (as I said in my first response to the OP that I was also LTTP) and have made 6 characters with different builds, and I hate chalice dungeons with a passion. you CAN both Love Bloodborne the game and hate chalice dungeons.

anyways, to be honest, nothing really more needs to be said about this. as both our arguments dont really need anymore discussion as they both are pretty clear at this point.

 

[Ferr986]

People hate Chalice Dungeons because the series is known for its top-notch level design and these are procedurally generated and the algorithm isn't very remarkable so they all feel very samey and simplistic, it's simple.

Of course, I would hate a full game being like Chalices dungeon RNG levels.
But Chalices are just side content. The reason they are RNG is just for replayability. There's the base game for that level design experience.

This is just FACTUALLY wrong and it's like looking at it as if it were black and white. Surely you are more intelligent than this and you understand that the base game and some tacked on copy and paste bullshit, while on the surface may appear to be the same due to the combat remaining the same, but in actuality are very different due to everything surrounding the combat being completely different.

It's you that are making everything either black or white, saying Chalice are just shit and people is crazy for liking them.
I already said it's a flawed design, but as a side content there's good on it. I mean there's full games that are based in this RNG level design gameplay system too. Not that I would like them for a full DS/BB game though. But I still think that, if well impremented, it's a great side content for replayability.

And I'm not going to listen to the podcast. I don't like listening podcasts and I don't really care about the opinion, but the biggest reason is that I barely can understand spoken english

Btw, I don't think Bloodborne is perfect. I still rank Dark Souls 1 higher, for example.

Agreed. The level design is more simplistic, though I like the heavier use of traps, but the combat is still excellent and some of the best boss fights in the game are in the dungeons.
Though why are we arguing about Chalice Dungeons in a thread about The Old Hunters exactly?

You're right, sorry, didn't want to derail his LTTP.

 

[Son Of D]

I did find earlier dungeons easy and quite dull. But I enjoyed the Ailing Loran Chalice since I felt it was a good difficulty. Also got caught off guard by the spiders being able to run into the lamp room on layer 3.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Of course, I would hate a full game being like Chalices dungeon RNG levels.
But Chalices are just side content.

so can you understand someone that doesn't like chalice or thinks chalice is bad can still like bloodborne and theink bloodborne is good right? since it's just side content?

and I'm not making anything black and white. I said my opinion on the opinion that its good is crazy, but I accept it cause it's an opinion afterall. I used the qoute "you can enjoy bad game design, but bad game design is bad game design"

slightly back on topic...The world building/lore in this game is super fascinating to me, and it's something I didn't think I'd care about because I'm not the biggest fan of hp lovecraft, etc....like I always thought it was interesting but never "cared." however the depths of the detail that in this game in regards to the lore of it is insane.

Though why are we arguing about Chalice Dungeons in a thread about The Old Hunters exactly?

also, i thought this thread was a LTTP thread about Bloodborne as a whole, and not just The Old Hunters...No? Read the OP.

 

[Nev]

.

I played the Chalice Dungeons as I was playing the main game, so the depth difficulty escalated properly as I advanced through the story. They're not bad game design at all, they're side content and you're not forced to play them, and some people like me like it a lot, get over it.

If you complete the game and you have to snooze through depths 1-4 afterwards that is hardly the game's fault.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

I played the Chalice Dungeons as I was playing the main game, so the depth difficulty escalated properly as I advanced through the story. They're not bad game design at all, they're side content and you're not forced to play them, and some people like me like it a lot, get over it.

If you complete the game and you have to snooze through depths 1-4 afterwards that is hardly the game's fault.

you missed the whole PVP part of the discussion, which yes, you do need to play the chalice for. otherwise, I wouldn't touch chalice EVER. in fact, I would just delete it from my mind as if it didn't exist in the bloodborne game and the game would then be, indeed perfect.

you like chalice, but I don't and I believe it's bad game design and there are alot of good reasoning to justify that thinking. get over that.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

also, i thought this thread was a LTTP thread about Bloodborne as a whole, and not just The Old Hunters...No? Read the OP.

Fair enough.

Shame the Chalice dicussion seems to be going in circles though and has completely taken over the thread.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Fair enough.

Shame the Chalice dicussion seems to be going in circles though and has completely taken over the thread.

I'm trying to stop, I really am, but people keep coming for me

 

[klee123]

Personally loved the idea of chalice dungeons, it seriously added a lot of replayability in one game compared to your average souls game which after beating the final boss, usually meant that I do NG+ and so on.

If they bring them back for BB2 the only thing I'd fix is if they make it end game content only (depth 5 and harder) and some more variations to the environments would be nice too.

 

[BigBoss007]

Couldn't beat the last boss. That motherfucker is a true pain in the ass.

I agree: Lady Maria is one of the most epic bosses in Bloodborne and Dark Souls.

 

[sn00zer]

Is it not fun simply because you think it's too hard?

Yes because the entire DLC has a completely different level of difficulty completely uncharacteristic of the rest of the game. It wasn't challenging it was frustrating. One of my favorite aspects of Bloodborne is that you don't need to level grind ever, and the DLC has easily the worst level gate I have ever encountered. Then tons of the encounter are just ambushes that don't feel nearly as fun as the main game encounters that used ambushes to a bare minimum.

It just straight up was not fun, which is a shame because some of the boss mechanics were great.

 

[Bronetta]

What lvl are you? Love to help you out, best fight in the game

I think I'm around level 90? Anyways PSN = ShinDiFire please do add me I'd love to get some help with it. The alternative is to start a new playthrough to do a Blades of Mercy playthrough (which I already did, not that I mind this game is a joy to play everytime.

At this point I'd rather get the DLC done with because I spoiled myself on the Fishing Hamlet and the final boss, those lore videos are too damn good!