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M+KB causes significantly less VR sickness than analogs and should be default on PC

nynt9

Member
Having spent hundreds of hours in VR doing development, gaming and research, and having used a plethora of control methods from EM trackers, kinects, analogs and mice, and used all kinds of VR headsets including each version of the Rift, the Vive and PSVR, I've come to a conclusion.

The Xbox controller is used to control a decent amount of VR games without full motion tracking. In games that involve bodily movement, the analogs are usually mapped to traditional 3D controls (left analog moves, right analog controls the look). While this works, it often causes motion sickness symptoms for many, which necessitates the usage of VR based movement/aiming schemes that are at 30/45/90 degree increments and with short teleports.

I've found that using M+KB actually alleviates this issue significantly. The mouse movement controls your look position instead of acceleration like the analog, so you can make fast movements akin to the discrete VR rotations. Similarly with the keyboard, your movement is velocity based instead of acceleration based so you don't get the windup-winddown cycle that seems to cause the most nausea. I've played through the entirety of Alien Isolation in the Rift with this control scheme and it was fine, but I can't play it with the analog.

We've also run experiments on both experienced VR users and casual/first time users using a factorial design to isolate different factors and the empirical results seem to suggest this as well. (We actually wrote a paper on it but ended up not publishing it because we thought other, unrelated aspects of the paper weren't strong enough).

So, PC VR users on GAF, have you also tried a MKB control scheme in VR and do you also feel this way is better?
 

FyreWulff

Member
In my development tests I found motion controls to be the best. Sticks and mouse were even for me, but I also mapped the left stick to turning and moving back and forth, because I use Legacy sticks on first person shooters, which feels more natural to me than forcing the right stick to be a mouse.

A larger problem is the update rate of IMUs + the display is still not fast enough on any platform. People still "wear out" after not very long because the brain does not like even the slightest bit of lag when you're trying to convince it that it's in another reality, even when they have their most comfortable control scheme.
 

Uzukii

Banned
I can't imagine this being very practical. Keyboards have too many keys. Soon as you move your hands away from it, you'll lose your coordination and have to peek from out your visor. I personally haven't had motion sickness from (PS)VR and it didn't take long for me to adapt to it.
 

nynt9

Member
In my development tests I found motion controls to be the best. Sticks and mouse were even for me, but I also mapped the left stick to turning and moving back and forth, because I use Legacy sticks on first person shooters, which feels more natural to me than forcing the right stick to be a mouse.

A larger problem is the update rate of IMUs + the display is still not fast enough on any platform. People still "wear out" after not very long because the brain does not like even the slightest bit of lag when you're trying to convince it that it's in another reality, even when they have their most comfortable control scheme.

I mean, motion controls are ideal obviously, but I'm talking about games that can't be played like that. Traditional games that you enable VR on with hacked DLLs, for example.

I can't imagine this being very practical. Keyboards have too many keys. Soon as you move your hands away from it, you'll lose your coordination and have to peek from out your visor. I personally haven't had motion sickness from (PS)VR and it didn't take long for me to adapt to it.

Any PC gamer who is even moderately experienced can navigate their way around the relevant keys without looking at them. I mean, I typed the entirety of this post without looking at my keyboard.
 

Crayon

Member
I've only played redout with a controller in vr. That worked out.

On flat display, some game will make me nauseous with a mouse but not controller. I think it has more to do with my aim and move habits when using a mouse, rather than the mouse itself.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Any PC gamer who is even moderately experienced can navigate their way around the relevant keys without looking at them. I mean, I typed the entirety of this post without looking at my keyboard.

All of us that can touch type like that are a tiny minority of PC users.
 

Uzukii

Banned
Any PC gamer who is even moderately experienced can navigate their way around the relevant keys without looking at them. I mean, I typed the entirety of this post without looking at my keyboard.

I figured you'd say something like that. Not everyone can type with their eyes closed. Or play games without occasionally looking down at the keyboard. Just like not everyone can handle VR without getting sick.
 

nynt9

Member
I figured you'd say something like that. Not everyone can type with their eyes closed. Or play games without occasionally looking down at the keyboard. Just like not everyone can handle VR without getting sick.

There are reduced keyboard-like controllers:

razer-nostromo-gallery-1.png
 
All of us that can touch type like that are a tiny minority of PC users.

Tiny minority? Besides something like Arma, any PC gamer worth their salt can manage the ~10 keys needed to be competent at a shooter. Hell, the hardest part is if weapons are bound to 1-9 keys, which is alleviated by a scroll wheel.
 

120v

Member
my experience with kb&m in VR have been pretty godawful but its been more of an armchair experimental kind of thing. grain of salt and all that. i could see some FPSs working out fine with it ... but as of right now, not really seeing it happen.
 

Riptwo

Member
I've found that KB+M in VR does nothing to alleviate motion sickness in comparison to a controller, while also being far less comfortable to use.
 

prag16

Banned
All of us that can touch type like that are a tiny minority of PC users.

tenor.gif


Typing: I doubt people who can touch type are a "tiny minority" of PC users nowadays.

Gaming: If you can't manage WASDQEF,ctrl,space,alt,shift (at bare minimum)... then... ok. It really doesn't take much time for at least that much to become very easy to do blind.
 

Arulan

Member
I can attest to this. If I had to guess, I'd say that the quick and immediate actions from a mouse and keyboard are much more similar to teleporting (or the 1/8 sharp camera turns some games use for 'comfort mode') than the slow and gradual response from an analog input.
 

nynt9

Member
^ Unfortunately the realities of research funding and publishing dictated that we were to move on to different subjects so we were never able to publish the full paper on this.

I can attest to this. If I had to guess, I'd say that the quick and immediate actions from a mouse and keyboard are much more similar to teleporting (or the 1/8 sharp camera turns some games use for 'comfort mode') than the slow and gradual response from an analog input.

Yeah that's what I tried to convey in my OP. That's my guess as well. The data supports it, but I can't really say why despite having my thesis on visual neuroscience lol.

VR is actually a very interesting research area for neuroscience and I'm sure it will pick up in the next few years.
 

Trojan

Member
I have not tried a KBM setup with my Vive, but this interesting. I know that the turning aspect (right stick) is typically the culprit for motion sickness. Do you think the difference with KBM has something to do with the free use of your right hand on the mouse?
 

Steel

Banned
I don't really notice a difference, honestly. Controller's more convenient spacewise. Then again, I don't get motion sick ever, even if I use artificial locomotion while standing.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Man have you seen kids these days? they learn to touch type by like grade 3 and average 90wpm by the end of high school.

The average required WPM for data entry on most jobs is 30wpm. Not 90. The majority of text input users are now on keyboardless touch phones who's most popular method of entry is one finger/thumb hunt and peck or swipe-to-type that you visually look at while it's doing it. Not two hand home key gigablazespeed cyborg type.

If you design a game or UI around 90wpm+ touch typing, more power to you, but you're not going to be accessible to most of the potential userbase.

Tiny minority? Besides something like Arma, any PC gamer worth their salt can manage the ~10 keys needed to be competent at a shooter. Hell, the hardest part is if weapons are bound to 1-9 keys, which is alleviated by a scroll wheel.

Not everyone trying or using VR is going to be a hardcore gamer. Not everyone gaming on PC is going to be a hardcore gamer.

My 9 year old daughter can type without seeing the keyboard. I don't think it would be that hard...haha

Probably because you gave her an interest in learning to do it. I volunteer in computer literacy and I've had to spend months with people just to get them up to the target minimum of 15wpm. The average 13 year old types at 25wpm.

Yeah but it's not typing, it's getting your hand one key left of the obviously nubbed F Key. Has never been an issue for me personally.

That's great, but I'm speaking about the general mass public. Not you guys. Step outside the personal ego bubble for a moment. Just because we can type super fast without looking does not extrapolate to the rest of the population automatically.

average.gif


https://imlocation.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/how-fast-do-people-type/
 
I have not tried it yet, and I trust you did some good research...but with that said, I feel like most seated experiences worth playing are cockpit/3rd person games that wouldn't make you queezy anyway. If you're playing a seated game where you need a m/kb or controller to look around, then at this point I don't know if it's a VR game worth playing (for me). Doom 3 has been adapted to motion controls, as every VR shooter from the past should be. And every new VR shooter should also go motion controls unless it's a cockpit game or something of the like. I personally don't get motion sick and therefore would likely never use a m/kb unless required, but for others I still think it has more downsides for it to be the optimal method of control in almost any game, regardless of its comfort improvement.

ITT people expose their lack of keyboard layout knowledge

If anything that makes it a more valid reason not to offer as the primary option in PC VR games. It means even people who PC game and go to a gaming forum aren't confident with using a keyboard completely blindly.
 

Mindlog

Member
I can't imagine this being very practical. Keyboards have too many keys. Soon as you move your hands away from it, you'll lose your coordination and have to peek from out your visor. I personally haven't had motion sickness from (PS)VR and it didn't take long for me to adapt to it.
See through has to be a pretty trivial matter for something like the Vive. I wonder why I haven't seen some movement on that. I would like to see that. Heck would even be willing to mount some IR lights or buy a special IR keyboard that's easy for VR setups to detect.

Pretty much exactly what PSVR can do with the DS4.
 
All of us that can touch type like that are a tiny minority of PC users.

Honestly I don't think that's the case. Almost everyone uses computers for work, and learn to type pretty efficiently without looking at their keys. I guess it might prove a problem for younger gamers who's primary experiences have been touch. But given ample time at a keyboard pretty much anyone gets used to it and for gaming purposes it's quite quickly.

Many Baby Boomers are better typists and keyboard users than those of us who are GenX or Millenials though. Although I guess that is anecdotal for now as I cannot provide evidence.
 

Steel

Banned
See through has to be a pretty trivial matter for something like the Vive. I wonder why I haven't seen some movement on that. I would like to see that. Heck would even be willing to mount some IR lights or buy a special IR keyboard that's easy for VR setups to detect.

Pretty much exactly what PSVR can do with the DS4.

Both the vive and the Oculus track their motion controllers in the virtual space(you can see the physical controlelr and the buttons being pressed and moved). The reason why the DS4 works in this context is because it can be tracked with the light and gyro. Unfortunately, keyboards and mice don't have this type of set up.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
I don't get motion sick in VR, so I will probably never try this. Sounds awkward and annoying in comparison to motion controls or a standard controller.
 
That's great, but I'm speaking about the general mass public. Not you guys. Step outside the personal ego bubble for a moment. Just because we can type super fast without looking does not extrapolate to the rest of the population automatically.

average.gif


https://imlocation.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/how-fast-do-people-type/

Again, you've missed the point. It's four to six buttons which you rest your hand on. It's not even close to touch typing like an elite gamer cool MLG guy.

You're equating being able to use a game pad with memorizing the layout of a HOTAS set up.
 
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