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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-present-intelligence-data-plane-crash-0

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said, adding at another point, "There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here."
 

FyreWulff

Member
It depends. Malaysia Airlines isn't the only airline to decide the fuel savings outweighed the potential risk... it just didn't work out for them. I think it's a foolish decision.

Well, usually you're flying high enough that only first world countries have weapons capable of hitting you, and you usually expect first world countries to not shoot down passenger airliners.

Of course, you start rolling the dice when you give highly capable weapons to those with less to lose.
 

Nilaul

Member
How reliable is this website? If true, that would be a megaton.

Gazeta is reliable when reporting news.. however gazeta took their source from Italian news "Corriere della Sera"

Further down the article they mentioned that other fellow separatists budged into the conversation and said,"Ofcourse we did not shootdown the plane, we do not have missles capable of shooting so high"
 

Goldrusher

Member
two important updates:


The black boxes have left Ukraine.

A Belgian Embraer jet has left Kiev airport 2 hours ago, with the black boxes. They will be flown to Farnborough in the UK, where the "Air Accidents Investigation Branch" will investigate them.


The first bodies are expected to arrive in The Netherlands today at 4pm local.

A Dutch C-130 and an Australian C-17 are expected to take off at Kharkiv at 11am local time.
Their landing in Eindhoven will be attended by the King, Queen, prime minister and a number of representatives of all the countries who lost people.

There will also be a nationwide minute of silence at 4pm.
 

antonz

Member
Yeah that's all diplomatic double speak. They can't prove 100% it was a Russian soldier at the controls but they know it was the Rebels so that means Russia was involved no mater what.
 

Ollie Pooch

In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
"We had nothing to do with this pla- QUICK REMOVE ALL EVIDENCE ASAP IN A REALLY HAPHAZARD OBVIOUS WAY - anyway what was I saying? Oh yes, it wasn't us" *buzz saws*
 

antonz

Member
CBS is reporting 100 bodies were not on the train as the Russians reported they were.

@CBSEveningNews · 1h

As some #MH17 crash victims make the slow journey home, we learn 100 were left behind. We're at the crash scene, now.
 

MNC

Member
Well, fuck. I arrive at Eindhoven airport 5 minutes before the bodies do. This is going to be hella awkward and depressing :/

Multiple Dutch sources say there's a national day of grieving in the Netherlands tomorrow.
 

Jenov

Member
"..Ukraine said Tuesday the Boeing 777's cockpit inexplicably had been sawed in half while under the control of Russian-backed separatists.

The monitors said said large parts of the cockpit -- and every part of the fuselage -- were carried off. They said they are not sure why such vital pieces of evidence from the downed plane were tampered with."

lol wtf is this? Really Russia?
 
...in alternate reality world:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/w...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

...People here are also heavily influenced by Russian television, which has been beamed into most every house in rebel-controlled territory after separatists took over the television towers in these areas earlier this year.

Even on the day after the crash, the conclusions drawn by people in the village of Grabovo, which was nearly crushed as the plane fell, were beginning to settle into a pattern consistent with the narrative on Russian television — that a Ukrainian plane shot down the airliner.

One woman, who had pulled up to a friend’s house in a small Lada car, was recounting through tears how she had seen the jet crash just yards from her home, when her husband interjected: “The rocket came from over there.”

She swung around and said: “There was no rocket. It was a fighter jet. One hundred percent.”

Some theories were particularly strange. A woman in central Snizhne said there was something suspicious about the flight because all the passports were new and been collected in one place, and because most of the bodies were without clothing.

“Were they all having sex before the plane came down,” said the woman, who identified herself only as Tatyana out of concern for her safety.

The Ivushka market is on the road where Ukrainian intelligence officials say the Buk moved. Lyubov Sherbakova, a clerk there, said she saw so much rebel hardware that even if she had seen a Buk, she would not have been able to distinguish it.

“We wave at them all day,” she said, referring to rebels’ heavy machinery.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Some theories were particularly strange. A woman in central Snizhne said there was something suspicious about the flight because all the passports were new and been collected in one place, and because most of the bodies were without clothing.

“Were they all having sex before the plane came down,” said the woman, who identified herself only as Tatyana out of concern for her safety.

How do you hear this and believe it?
 

El Topo

Member
the UK has been the toughest critic of Russia in all of Europe.

Doesn't stop them from making money, because why would anyone think they have higher standards than the rest? Not that cancelling the exports would change that, but it's a nice example.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/arms-export-licences-russia-pm-embargo-report

Whatever politicians/governments do, they're doing it for their own interest, not because they've suddenly found their morals.

Europe is a joke. All talk and no muscle.

Much of Europe simply has no interest in hurting itself by punishing Russia. Why would they move their muscles in this case? There's little to gain for them.
 

antonz

Member
Coffins are being loaded onto Plane for trip to Netherlands. First sign of decency in this whole thing is the Ukrainian Honor Guard present.

BtNsUD_CYAAgtwP.jpg


Those responsible are coming closer and closer to death or capture. Rebel Forces in Donetsk have been forced to abandon many outer perimeter checkpoints and flee into the heart of the city as the Ukrainian Army has retaken the airport and moving in on the city.
@StateOfUkraine 22m
Russian mil cmdr Strelkov: we've retreated from #Dontesk #Ukraine airport & Ukrainian forces are now on the northwest edge of the city

Luhansk is very similar with the Army slowly tightening the noose around the forces in the city.
 
Yes, but that don't stop me from being angry at that.

And we do have something to gain from this. They've invaded Georgia and annexed part of Ukraine; Is there a single person in the world who thinks that this is the last manoeuvre Putin will go on? As long as Putin controls Russia, Europe is a less secure place - the idea that we only have something to lose by harsher sanctions on Russia is short-termism at its worst. Even in purely economic terms, there's more to it than gas and trade; instability in Eastern Europe is bad for all of us.
 

ymoc

Member
Was this already posted?
France isn't alone. The United Kingdom ALSO still delivers weapons to russia, which is very funny after Cameron gave Hollande shit. Sniper rifles, night vision, munition for small weapons, bulletproof vests and communications equipment will be still delievered to russia.

Europe is a joke. All talk and no muscle.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...efern-weiter-waffen-an-russland-a-982433.html

Let me guess, you are American?

And we do have something to gain from this. They've invaded Georgia and annexed part of Ukraine; Is there a single person in the world who thinks that this is the last manoeuvre Putin will go on? As long as Putin controls Russia, Europe is a less secure place - the idea that we only have something to lose by harsher sanctions on Russia is short-termism at its worst. Even in purely economic terms, there's more to it than gas and trade; instability in Eastern Europe is bad for all of us.

The barbarians are coming!!!!
Would you be so kind as to give a prediction of Russia's expansion to the west? Who will they target first? Poland? Finland? The Baltic trio?
 
The barbarians are coming!!!!
Would you be so kind as to give a prediction of Russia's expansion to the west? Who will they target first? Poland? Finland? The Baltic trio?

I can't. I didn't anticipate Georgia, I didn't anticipate Crimea. And isn't that rather the point?
 

ymoc

Member
No. I am a disappointed german.

Disappointed at what exactly????

I can't. I didn't anticipate Georgia, I didn't anticipate Crimea. And isn't that rather the point?

That's exactly NOT the point. I don't think the fact you didn't expect those things means that there will be an escalation of Russia's military actions. Both times Russia acted has been in the regions with a heavy Russian population, so I think we're rather safe, don't you?
 

Chariot

Member
Disappointed at what exactly????
Careful with the question marks here, I am not sure I can hold them all.
I am disappointed because my country and the other important country in the security council can't get over themselves. Keep talking about sanctions and doing something against russias meddling where it don't have to meddle, but in the end it's just talk. I actually want that word worth something.
The war in the Ukraine has to end.
 
That's exactly NOT the point. I don't think the fact you didn't expect those things means that there will be an escalation of Russia's military actions. Both times Russia acted has been in the regions with a heavy Russian population, so I think we're rather safe, don't you?

I don't think he'll be at the fore of a tank column trampling down the Champs Élysées any time soon, no, but Georgia and Ukraine aren't the only places with high Russian populations, and those places deserve the full support of Europe - something they're currently not getting. They've already effectively invaded two countries - they don't need to "escalate" for it to be a problem; It already is.

I think I'm safe. Like I said above, though, there are economic as well as security concerns here that go beyond just gas. Again I have to ask, do you genuinely believe this is Russia's final foreign policy foray?
 

ymoc

Member
Careful with the question marks here, I am not sure I can hold them all.
I am disappointed because my country and the other important country in the security council can't get over themselves. Keep talking about sanctions and doing something against russias meddling where it don't have to meddle, but in the end it's just talk. I actually want that word worth something.
The war in the Ukraine has to end.

No sarcasm needed.
You and me both.
The hard truth is that the security council is a joke, and I'm not talking just about Russia.
Whenever these is a personal interest involved of a SC member the outcome is known even before the vote. It's just a show.
But I disagree that Russia is meddling where it has nothing to meddle with. The degree and the way they're doing it can be heavily argued though, but I think it is not unreasonable that they are invovled (diplomatically preferably) in a region with a heavy russian population.
I think the biggest problem in today's foreign affairs, like in the case of Ukraine here is that silent diplomacy seems not to exist. We don't need Kerry to spout bullshit about rebels stealing bodies. I'd expect so much more from american diplomacy...
 

Chariot

Member
What countries in Europe could Russia invade that isnt part of NATO or EU? Beside Russian puppet states that is.
jbb3Koq9h1dfB7.png

Everything that's grey, I guess.
No sarcasm needed.
You and me both.
The hard truth is that the security council is a joke, and I'm not talking just about Russia.
Whenever these is a personal interest involved of a SC member the outcome is known even before the vote. It's just a show.
But I disagree that Russia is meddling where it has nothing to meddle with. The degree and the way they're doing it can be heavily argued though, but I think it is not unreasonable that they are invovled (diplomatically preferably) in a region with a heavy russian population.
I think the biggest problem in today's foreign affairs, like in the case of Ukraine here is that silent diplomacy seems not to exist. We don't need Kerry to spout bullshit about rebels stealing bodies. I'd expect so much more from american diplomacy...
Russian population. The times of the sowjet union have long past. Those people aren't russian since decades anymore. Just because they and their anchestors were russian once, doesen't make it right to just invade another land. Actually wasn't that exactly what the third Reich did with the Sudetenland?
 

ymoc

Member
I don't think he'll be at the fore of a tank column trampling down the Champs Élysées any time soon, no, but Georgia and Ukraine aren't the only places with high Russian populations, and those places deserve the full support of Europe - something they're currently not getting. They've already effectively invaded two countries - they don't need to "escalate" for it to be a problem; It already is.

I think I'm safe. Like I said above, though, there are economic as well as security concerns here that go beyond just gas. Again I have to ask, do you genuinely believe this is Russia's final foreign policy foray?

What do you mean "full support"? What do you want us to do?

Is Georgi still a problem?

Why would you ask a silly question like that? Every country makes foreign policy forays all the time. If you mean if Russia will roll out their tanks in the future? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they're still a bit away from the USA foreign country invasion level. They also don't act as a "world policeman", so I'm pretty sure they're sticking to their backyard for the near future.

You don't have to be American to know Europe is all talk.
No you don't, but if you had known the fact that since its inception the European Community has been all about soft power, you'd know that this rhetoric is silly.
 

Chariot

Member
What do you mean "full support"? What do you want us to do?

Is Georgi still a problem?

Why would you ask a silly question like that? Every country makes foreign policy forays all the time. If you mean if Russia will roll out their tanks in the future? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they're still a bit away from the USA foreign country invasion level. They also don't act as a "world policeman", so I'm pretty sure they're sticking to their backyard for the near future.
I am not willing to defend the US here, but their failures don't make russias action any better. They just annexed part of an independent nation and seek for more. The bear is hungry and the former sowjet states tremble in fear.
 
What do you mean "full support"? What do you want us to do?

Is Georgi still a problem?

Why would you ask a silly question like that? Every country makes foreign policy forays all the time. If you mean if Russia will roll out their tanks in the future? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they're still a bit away from the USA foreign country invasion level. They also don't act as a "world policeman", so I'm pretty sure they're sticking to their backyard for the near future.

By full support I mean do what we can to stop the possibility of other countries falling prey to Russia like Georgia and Ukraine have, and my preferred solution is significantly larger economic sanctions.

Does it matter if Georgia is still a problem? Time runs linearly, that doesn't stop the suffering nor instability that was caused by their intervention.

Firstly, they have invaded foreign countries, and secondly, it's not their backyard - you own your backyard! Ukraine, Georgia, Malaysian aeroplanes are not their property, they're not somehow "Russia's" - they're sovereign countries that have had that sovereignty violated. The fact that your prediction is that any future manoeuvres on their behalf will remain in Eastern Europe isn't exactly comforting to me.

Edit: The EU *is* all about Soft Power, and this event has shown exactly how flaccid that power is.
 

spekkeh

Banned
jbb3Koq9h1dfB7.png

Everything that's grey, I guess.Russian population. The times of the sowjet union have long past. Those people aren't russian since decades anymore. Just because they and their anchestors were russian once, doesen't make it right to just invade another land. Actually wasn't that exactly what the third Reich did with the Sudetenland?
It was nice knowing ya Switzerland!

And yes, Russia is practicing blut und boden.
 
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