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[Arun1910]

now we just need to hope they have their liquid metal under control.

I'm sure it's fine. They developed it themselves over 2 years to make sure it would be suitable - https://www.tweaktown.com/news/7554...compound-to-cool-soc-sony-confirms/index.html

 

[JimboJones]

NeoGaf advertising has a sense of humour.

 

[Laconian Sword]

The concern around this stuff is ridiculous, especially for a $500 box. At the end of the day, this is a mass-produced consumer electronics product intended for general consumers, not a cobbled-together PC for hobbyists. Something engineers take into account during the design process, and any issues will be backed by the manufacturer in the usual way for any product. I don't see how these technical details, while interesting, need to be factored into anyone's buying decisions. If in the rare instance there's a problem, then there are plenty of remedies for that. Any product can be defective.

 

[jaysius]

Thanks for the laugh, you should right for the onion.

Edit: reading your blabbing post seems like you didn't bother reading the article. What makes you say PS5 should last half a year? Does having the best TIM and largest heatsink and fan assembly not satisfy your concerned ass?

Also what 8mm M2 restriction? That was for the height of the HEATSINK of the M.2 drive. PS5 actually accepts up to 110mm drives in length and they are even actively cooled by PS5 as mentioned in the article.

Wow you didn’t read about the m2 height restrictions this guy mentioned.

Babbling eh? Great counter point. Very ad hominem of you.

I didn’t say the machine would die in half a year, I’m talking about the aural acoustics.

Nice babbling response.

Definition of ad hominem
(Entry 1 of 2)
1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect an ad hominem argument
2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
Very handy for reference, Gaf is full of this logical fallacy.

 

[Birdo]

 

[LordOfChaos]

Who can guarantee that the reason Godfall ran so quietly in that youtuber playtest wasn't because the fans were programmed by a pre-release firmware to run very quiet (to the point it wouldn't be healthy for that console in the long term)?

Who can guarantee that the machine's longevity won't be sacrificed in order to give us the illusion of a quiet console for some months?

This cooling solution was supposed to be a very safe well thought out patent, and in many ways it was, but those 'we'll see how it goes' estimates for future ps5 AAA games worries me.

I'm being a bit more optimistic here. The overall system seems clearly designed for performance and silence, and the dust catching system is a smart way to keep that performance up.

What fan profile can do is measure the fleet response of PS5's fans to different games, maybe even apply some ML to the data, and help smooth out the fan curve. Rather than ramping from 2000 RPM to 4000 on a very hard level, it can anticipate that a hard load is coming up and start moving more air at 3000RPM early, and things like that.

And while the PS5 is fixed on max power rather than clock speed, as I mentioned on page one, this still doesn't mean different games won't have different thermal loads, if a game has a lot of idle times there's no sense in running at max power and saturating the thermal system, another game might give no such breaks.

 

[longdi]

Sure, PS5's cooling solution wich uses techniques such as double intake centrifugal fan, APU cooled in both sides using liquid metal (fist time for a consumer electronic product) via a new patented technique, elaborate heatsink design with silver plated base must look very 'old' and 'brute force', especially to Richard's eyes.

But thats what Richard meant, i think.
If we look in isolation, PS4->PS5, yes Sony improved their cooling techniques.
But if we can apply out of the box design, could Sony have done differently and resulting in more powerful hardware? more compactness? cheaper to build even?
Imo PS4 Pro cooling was kinda stagnant and brute forcing.
PS5 took a weird shift in exterior looks, but the interior design appear rather raw. The PCB looks overly big and barrren compared to past PS. That heatsink is rather too ginormous by Richard's words. The use of liquid metal seems rather ambitous and wont be cheaper imo.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Wow you didn’t read about the m2 height restrictions this guy mentioned.

Babbling eh? Great counter point. Very ad hominem of you.

I didn’t say the machine would die in half a year, I’m talking about the aural acoustics.

Nice babbling response.

Well you are just babbling because as far as I'm aware nobody has tested the PS5 yet?

 

[Thirty7ven]

But thats what Richard meant, i think.
If we look in isolation, PS4->PS5, yes Sony improved their cooling techniques.
But if we can apply out of the box design, could Sony have done differently and resulting in more powerful hardware? more compactness? cheaper to build even?
Imo PS4 Pro cooling was kinda stagnant and brute forcing.
PS5 took a weird shift in exterior looks, but the interior design appear rather raw. The PCB looks overly big and barrren compared to past PS. That heatsink is rather too ginormous by Richard's words. The use of liquid metal seems rather ambitous and wont be cheaper imo.

A console is meant to be a showcase of engineering in cost reduction meets maximum performance. If you deliver a high performance console, while keeping it cool and quiet, while maintaining costs down, then you win.

If mid next year, there are 50% more PS5 on the market than there are Xbox, who hit the mark? Do we even know how many units does MS plan to have on shelves by April? Why is this a secret? A more expensive APU and a more expensive cooling solution on XSX doesn't exactly make it look like they are breaking any barriers and more like they are eating it on the chin and producing less units.

 

[Aguero9320]

Imagine how big the PS5 would have been without the liquid metal

Seems like a risk to me, but it will be fun to watch what happens over the next few years. Not just with the liquid metal, especially with that SSD expansion - metal cover, people running without heatsinks etc. I'm sticking with stock storage for sure, at least until things settle down.

 

[Digital Gex]

The fact they are even saying this about the fan is telling.

 

[M1chl]

Imagine how big the PS5 would have been without the liquid metal

Seems like a risk to me, but it will be fun to watch what happens over the next few years. Not just with the liquid metal, especially with that SSD expansion - metal cover, people running without heatsinks etc. I'm sticking with stock storage for sure, at least until things settle down.

That really does not have anything to do with how big it would be, it's more of how hot it would be...

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

A console is meant to be a showcase of engineering in cost reduction meets maximum performance. If you deliver a high performance console, while keeping it cool and quiet, while maintaining costs down, then you win.

If mid next year, there are 50% more PS5 on the market than there are Xbox, who hit the mark? Do we even know how many units does MS plan to have on shelves by April? Why is this a secret? A more expensive APU and a more expensive cooling solution on XSX doesn't exactly make it look like they are breaking any barriers and more like they are eating it on the chin and producing less units.

Out of curiosity how do you gather that MS has a more expensive cooling solution? The use of liquid metal, an enormous heatsink, the special fan, and a larger profile in general would seem to much more elaborate to me then the fan and smaller profile of the XSX.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Out of curiosity how do you gather that MS has a more expensive cooling solution? The use of liquid metal, an enormous heatsink, the special fan, and a larger profile in general would seem to much more elaborate to me then the fan and smaller profile of the XSX.

Because it's a vapor chamber. The whole point is that they delivered the performance of a vapor chamber by more conventional, cheaper means. Money was spent on the R&D side. Otherwise they would've gone with a vapor chamber.

"Special fan"? It's a custom fan, that's all.

 

[cormack12]

Out of curiosity how do you gather that MS has a more expensive cooling solution? The use of liquid metal, an enormous heatsink, the special fan, and a larger profile in general would seem to much more elaborate to me then the fan and smaller profile of the XSX.

That is definitely not the case imo, liquid metal, silver plate, massive amounts of copper and aluminium instead of nickel points to this being very premium in terms of components. It's the thing that sort of allays a lot of my questions as they are high quality components.

 

[iconmaster]

Two exhaust holes are provided for the expansion SSD slot.

This is very interesting. Now I'm trying to find those holes in teardown photos. perhaps at the top and bottom rather than the sides?

 

[Nickolaidas]

What fan profile can do is measure the fleet response of PS5's fans to different games, maybe even apply some ML to the data, and help smooth out the fan curve. Rather than ramping from 2000 RPM to 4000 on a very hard level, it can anticipate that a hard load is coming up and start moving more air at 3000RPM early, and things like that.

What I don't understand is, why does the ps5 need to have the potential for a separate 'fan speed instruction' via firmware update for a specific game? Isn't it capable of adapting its fan speed by temperature alone?

I mean, will the PS5 go like, "OH SHIT!! THE TEMPERATURE IS 75 Celcius and RISING! IT'S - huh? Oh, it's God of War? Yeah, ok. Give me more heat. S'all good."

 

[Rentahamster]

So, Sony can alter fan speed after a game’s release to allow for better airflow? Even 3rd party games? Is that what he meant?

If it's like a PC, it means you can alter the algorithm that controls the fan behavior in order to make it less or more aggressive at cooling, depending on the circumstances.

When you know the max power draw and will be there most of the time in next generation games you set the cooling to just run to exhaust that much heat it is simple. No need to move around the fan speeds per game unless Sony is omitting something. The system would be designed to run 24-7 at max with no real strain and with that beefy cooling system it should be zero issue. Slowing Down the fan won't add life when it is a big slow spinner. It should spin up to one speed in game mode that's it since power draw is known. None of the rev up and down like a fixed clock unit.

No. The APU isn't going to be at 100% load 100% of the time. You want the fan to spin up faster only when it needs to. This is how PCs do it.

Obviously I know nothing about electrical engineering and the like, but for me this all sounds rather overcomplicated with lots of possible points of failure. I hope their concept works because it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we see tons of faulty machines in the first year.

It sounds pretty normal. PCs have had these types of solutions for years.

The PCB looks overly big and barrren compared to past PS.

So what?

That heatsink is rather too ginormous by Richard's words.

He said it was "big". Fact. He didn't say it was "too big". Opinion.

The use of liquid metal seems rather ambitous and wont be cheaper imo.

It is ambitious mostly because it's different and the flaws are hard to engineer around, but it sounds like Sony did it. Of course we'll need to test it IRL, but their explanations for their designs make sense. Liquid metal by itself isn't cheap, but if it allows you to save on the heatsink, then the overall system cost is kept in check.

The fact they are even saying this about the fan is telling.

No its not. It's a standard question.

What I don't understand is, why does the ps5 need to have the potential for a separate 'fan speed instruction' via firmware update for a specific game? Isn't it capable of adapting its fan speed by temperature alone?

I mean, will the PS5 go like, "OH SHIT!! THE TEMPERATURE IS 75 Celcius and RISING! IT'S - huh? Oh, it's God of War? Yeah, ok. Give me more heat. S'all good."

Different games have different needs. Some games will be more demanding than others and require more aggressive cooling profiles. I don't see the harm in evolving those profiles over time with user data in order to get the sweet spot of maximum performance with minimum noise. It would be even better if users could choose what kind of profile they want to use (e.g. hotter and quieter vs noisier and cooler) like you can do in a PC.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Good to know that they're going serious with the cooling even after release.

 

[LordOfChaos]

What I don't understand is, why does the ps5 need to have the potential for a separate 'fan speed instruction' via firmware update for a specific game? Isn't it capable of adapting its fan speed by temperature alone?

I mean, will the PS5 go like, "OH SHIT!! THE TEMPERATURE IS 75 Celcius and RISING! IT'S - huh? Oh, it's God of War? Yeah, ok. Give me more heat. S'all good."

I'd imagine it'll just be smarter about anticipating a high heat load coming up. By adapting to meet the load before it comes up you can smooth out the fan changes and perhaps keep it quieter longer rather than relying on a pure temperature curve.

Think of a budget laptop that just reacts to chip temperature, vs a premium one that may use a moving average, but going even further because they can collect data on how the PS5 responds to different parts of games so can anticipate a coming load.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I'd imagine it'll just be smarter about anticipating a high heat load coming up. By adapting to meet the load before it comes up you can smooth out the fan changes and perhaps keep it quieter longer rather than relying on a pure temperature curve.

Not a problem on PS5 with gigantic, 6-pipe heatsink and liquid metal with fixed power draw. Cooling is power-draw based instead of conventional, old-school heat based.

 

[FrankWza]

Good to know that they're going serious with the cooling even after release.

I don’t see how it can be looked at any other way. Further proof they listened to the main concern from current gen with fan noise and addressed everything they possibly could have. And I thought that before this news. We’ll see how it works out but at least we know they are going for it

 

[Lysandros]

This is very interesting. Now I'm trying to find those holes in teardown photos. perhaps at the top and bottom rather than the sides?

Air going out by the rear vents is looking much more likely to me.

 

[MasterCornholio]

i mean they went though the trouble of coating the damn heatsink in SILVER, because copper wasn't good enough.

Nah Sony is just racist towards lycanthropes. PS5 for all except werewolves.

Back on topic. The liquid metal was shown to have a slight chance to corrode copper. After Sony saw this in their research they decided to coat the bottom of the heatsink with silver.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I don’t see how it can be looked at any other way. Further proof they listened to the main concern from current gen with fan noise and addressed everything they possibly could have. And I thought that before this news. We’ll see how it works out but at least we know they are going for it

It's also smarter than other conventional methods. It's power-draw based, so you can expect much better responsive cooling instead of old-school heat based.

 

[GymWolf]

When making homemade lightsabers go too far.

 

[reezoo]

Does this mean a chance of clock speed going up even further in future like psp? Recall cerny said in road to ps5 that they have to cap while there was still room.

Even power supply has lots of room.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Does this mean a chance of clock speed going up even further in future like psp? Recall cerny said in road to psp that they have to cap while there was still room.

Even power supply has lots of room.

I think they said they were able to clock it so high with the new methods that it became the accompanying chip logic that couldn't keep up. Future upclocks are pretty well a myth on stationary consoles, apart from last minute overclocks like the XBO. Once it's in consumers hands, it's settled.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

No, you don't get it. Sony is aiming for a certain cooling target. And when using regular thermal paste they were forced to use huge fans to reach that target and form the V shape dev kits we saw last year. But seriously, i am not sure what is so controversial about it. PS5 has more sophisticated cooling than PS4, is that suppose to be a negative now? i mean they went though the trouble of coating the damn heatsink in SILVER, because copper wasn't good enough.

Not for that, actually, but liquid metal, like Gallium, could affect certain metals. Other liquid metals could too. So they coated it wit silver just around the APU area IIRC:

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Thanks for this documentary about the side effects of hot sauce.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

What I don't understand is, why does the ps5 need to have the potential for a separate 'fan speed instruction' via firmware update for a specific game? Isn't it capable of adapting its fan speed by temperature alone?

I mean, will the PS5 go like, "OH SHIT!! THE TEMPERATURE IS 75 Celcius and RISING! IT'S - huh? Oh, it's God of War? Yeah, ok. Give me more heat. S'all good."

Fan speed will depend on workload. If Sony knows how much heat the console outputs at specific workloads, then they can have the cooling system directly respond to whatever the PS5 is processing. This is more efficient than responding to die and system temperature because it takes time for the die and system to heat up. That lag time is what we refer to as thermal latency.

 

[cormack12]

Fan speed will depend on workload. If Sony knows how much heat the console outputs at specific workloads, then they can have the cooling system directly respond to whatever the PS5 is processing. This is more efficient than responding to die and system temperature because it takes time for the die and system to heat up. That lag time is what we refer to as thermal latency.

So instead of peaking and troughing, the fan can kick in earlier and pre emptively maintain the temperature. Sort of proactive cooling instead of reactive?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

So instead of peaking and troughing, the fan can kick in earlier and pre emptively maintain the temperature. Sort of proactive cooling instead of reactive?

Yup, as been explained by Cerny before, it's tied to power draw instead which is much more predictable and near instant.

 

[Vawn]

PS5 is looking like a damn impressive piece of hardware.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Called it.

You see those 2 notches on the left... that is where the fan will be pulling the heat out of them when both covers are on.

Some are trying way too hard.

This is very interesting. Now I'm trying to find those holes in teardown photos. perhaps at the top and bottom rather than the sides?

The "holes" are those two notches on the left of the first photo. The plate sits on top and the air gets sucked out of the two there.

 

[iconmaster]

The "holes" are those two notches on the left of the first photo. The plate sits on top and the air gets sucked out of the two there.

Oh, I bet you're right. Those gaps would remain even with the cover on. It seems like the compartment is cut off from the main airflow since it's not open on the front side (AFAICT), but maybe the fan is close enough to those gaps to pull air from it?

Edit: it could be that the cover isn't airtight on the front, so air is flowing from front to back over the SSD.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I know PCs do this all the time, but this also just reinforces the notion that these consoles are practically PCs at this point.

The fact you aren't even guaranteed to buy a new $500 console on day one, take it home, and play away without needing to do tedious updates or constantly connect to the internet to send cooling system data to then download an update that you'd better hope works or else might risk causing a system error so you'd better hope you've got a previous system image backed up somewhere on the storage to restore (okay I'm being a tad exaggerating there, I'm sure the systems have default hardware config profiles stored on some EEPROM chip or whatnot on the board), is almost laughable.

Kind of defeats the purpose of a console IMO, these were the sort of things generally in the realm of PC gaming for the longest time. It also has me asking a question regarding as to what default cooling system settings and degree of in-house testing Sony's already done so far. I'd figure they would've already had a bank of fan profiles that could be enabled/disabled on the fly for any range of heat dissipation. That isn't too much different from the fixed power gating most consumer electronics (that don't use a variable frequency) already utilize, so what gives?

All in all it sounds like a bunch of extra work that's ultimately unnecessary. I can look at it as a Ferrari tuning each tiny squared point of an Enzo to ensure maximum thermodynamics, or a Ford preciously trying to keep a Pinto from falling apart, or anything in-between at this point to be perfectly honest

 

[Black_Stride]

This is very interesting. Now I'm trying to find those holes in teardown photos. perhaps at the top and bottom rather than the sides?

They are here (Forgive my bad Windows Snip images)

OP is wrong to call it active cooling, its passive cooling but relying on pressure to get the air out of the SSD slot..
Basically the intake fan kinda sucks air outta that slot due to pressure built up inside the clamshell.

So for people using the SSD slot and also planning to get rid of the clamshell......DONT it helps to create the pressure necessary to actually suck air out.

 

[Rentahamster]

I know PCs do this all the time, but this also just reinforces the notion that these consoles are practically PCs at this point.

Consoles are closer to PCs than they've ever been in terms of hardware, but not necessarily in terms of software or functionality or purpose. They are not "practically" PCs, nor is being more PC-like necessarily a bad thing.

The fact you aren't even guaranteed to buy a new $500 console on day one, take it home, and play away without needing to do tedious updates or constantly connect to the internet to send cooling system data to then download an update that you'd better hope works or else might risk causing a system error so you'd better hope you've got a previous system image backed up somewhere on the storage to restore (okay I'm being a tad exaggerating there, I'm sure the systems have default hardware config profiles stored on some EEPROM chip or whatnot on the board), is almost laughable.

Kind of defeats the purpose of a console IMO, these were the sort of things generally in the realm of PC gaming for the longest time. It also has me asking a question regarding as to what default cooling system settings and degree of in-house testing Sony's already done so far. I'd figure they would've already had a bank of fan profiles that could be enabled/disabled on the fly for any range of heat dissipation. That isn't too much different from the fixed power gating most consumer electronics (that don't use a variable frequency) already utilize, so what gives?

All in all it sounds like a bunch of extra work that's ultimately unnecessary. I can look at it as a Ferrari tuning each tiny squared point of an Enzo to ensure maximum thermodynamics, or a Ford preciously trying to keep a Pinto from falling apart, or anything in-between at this point to be perfectly honest

You're overthinking this. There is little reason to think that these processes are not mostly going to be invisible to the end user like they have been for the last decade of PS3 and PS4, with the option of tinkering available to power users.

 

[Md Ray]

Red Ring of Death 2 incoming.

As usual spreading FUD.

 

[MilkyJoe]

As usual spreading FUD.

Such a milksop

 

[Nickolaidas]

Fan speed will depend on workload. If Sony knows how much heat the console outputs at specific workloads, then they can have the cooling system directly respond to whatever the PS5 is processing. This is more efficient than responding to die and system temperature because it takes time for the die and system to heat up. That lag time is what we refer to as thermal latency.

Hmm ... nice.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Well I looked into building a similar specced PC and came to €900-1100.

 

[Ps5ProFoSho]

Very assuring. Thank you.


I'm going to keep my PS5 sitting horizontally, just to be safe.

I really can't tell so I have to say: I really hope everyone is joking about this.
You know the console is going to end up in about 100 different orientations by the time it gets in your hands, right?

 

[RoadHazard]

It's weird how none of the translated text says what the thread title says.

Still, cool info.

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

Because it's a vapor chamber. The whole point is that they delivered the performance of a vapor chamber by more conventional, cheaper means. Money was spent on the R&D side. Otherwise they would've gone with a vapor chamber.

"Special fan"? It's a custom fan, that's all.

Still seems like a lot of speculation. Vapor chambers would still be more conventional than what Sony did for the PS5, as they've been used for years. Looks like the One-x is a vapor chamber and servers use them as well. Sony developed their own formula of liquid metal over a two year research period. Money was spent on both sides for R&D the only difference is MS can use some of this knowledge for their other services. I thought there was rumors that the XSX and their server hardware had r&d bleed over (unless I'm making that up, which could be possible too, lol).

And a custom fan would be a special fan.. Still R&D, still production costs.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I feel like people are overthinking the comment about measuring how games cause different thermal scenarios. I highly doubt they are going to do per-game fan profiles that they need to release firmware patches for or something. He's just saying they can see real world results and adjust settings if need be.

 

[LordOfChaos]

OP is wrong to call it active cooling, its passive cooling but relying on pressure to get the air out of the SSD slot..
Basically the intake fan kinda sucks air outta that slot due to pressure built up inside the clamshell.

So for people using the SSD slot and also planning to get rid of the clamshell......DONT it helps to create the pressure necessary to actually suck air out.

Negative pressure created by a fan is called active cooling. It's doing work for the intended effect.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Still seems like a lot of speculation. Vapor chambers would still be more conventional than what Sony did for the PS5, as they've been used for years. Looks like the One-x is a vapor chamber and servers use them as well. Sony developed their own formula of liquid metal over a two year research period. Money was spent on both sides for R&D the only difference is MS can use some of this knowledge for their other services. I thought there was rumors that the XSX and their server hardware had r&d bleed over (unless I'm making that up, which could be possible too, lol).

And a custom fan would be a special fan.. Still R&D, still production costs.

You seem to be under this illusion that because something is new or different it makes it more expensive. Or that Sony went through the trouble of spending time researching and developing a cooling method that is more expensive than what they would otherwise get from a vapor chamber. They literally say it in the teardown vídeo that they managed to get same performance as a vapor chamber...

A custom fan doesn’t mean it’s more expensive to manufacture.

Either make sense or keep believing whatever you want.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Still seems like a lot of speculation. Vapor chambers would still be more conventional than what Sony did for the PS5, as they've been used for years. Looks like the One-x is a vapor chamber and servers use them as well. Sony developed their own formula of liquid metal over a two year research period. Money was spent on both sides for R&D the only difference is MS can use some of this knowledge for their other services. I thought there was rumors that the XSX and their server hardware had r&d bleed over (unless I'm making that up, which could be possible too, lol).

And a custom fan would be a special fan.. Still R&D, still production costs.

I think this bit might be relevant

The main reason is cost. In thermal design, you have to put the cost close to the heat source. As a general thermal design metaphor, let's say you spend 10 yen for a TIM and 1,000 yen for a heat sink in the cooling structure of a certain system. If you change to a 100 yen TIM, you can get the same cooling effect with a 500 yen heat sink. In other words, you can reduce the total cost.

By spending slightly more on TIM, they were able to spend less on a heatsink, and they say it performs like a vapor chamber would.

Perhaps more R&D, but less per unit cost.