At what price though?480hz monitors are coming soon.
If that was the criteria, projectors are unbeatable.How much do large 55 inch crts weigh? How deep are they? That might put some perspective in this crts are the greatest bullcrap around here these days.
I’m curious what the perceived difference is. What I mean is that most of the audio we consume daily is lossy. Likewise video. And it’s fine right now, a massive improvement over what lossy audio and video was like ten years ago. I guess what I’m asking is that, is this a genuine issue, or is this the usual enthusiast fodder where the 0.0001% dude listens to a 256 kbps VBR MP3 and swears he can hear the compression artifacts.480hz monitors are coming soon.
https://blurbusters.com/expose-stea...e-oleds-by-boe-china-surprising-blur-busters/
So the old CRT TVs had essentially zero motion blur, whereas modern day LCDs/OLEDs have a lot of motion blur, so the only way to fix this is to have 1,000 frames per second according to Blurbusters. And believe it or not it doesn't stop there, we are eventually going to need 10,000fps, why? Because there is a screen artifact called the phantom array effect that doesn't go away till you hit 10,000 frames per second. So this means we would need a computer capable of playing a game at 10,000 fps and a screen capable of displaying a 10,000hz refresh rate (I think this will take 50 years or more to accomplish). Look at the screenshot, that's the founder of Blurbusters, it's from the Blurbusters forum.
I agree, this is in part why I can't stand today's gaming. Between the shitty looking panels especially in motion, and the introduction of ambient occlusion in developers rendering pipelines almost a decade ago (blown out high contrast, glowing characters ect.), just awful.We still have a Sony 34XBR960 CRT and lately Ive been playing Ghost N Goblins Resurrection on it via Switch (the tv has 1 HDMI input thankfully) It really is crazy how much smoother 60fps/60Hz looks on a CRT vs. even my main 144Hz PC LCD and I won't even get into how much better the contrast ratio & black levels are on a decent CRT.
But the convergence has slipped a bit on the XBR960 over the years, thats one downside w/ CRT they need occasional calibration to keep things looking crisp.
Quite huge actually. We're used to it but LCD screens are very blurry in motion while OLED is too clear but not perfect either.I’m curious what the perceived difference is.
Video improved a lot, but audio didn't.What I mean is that most of the audio we consume daily is lossy. Likewise video. And it’s fine right now, a massive improvement over what lossy audio and video was like ten years ago. I guess what I’m asking is that, is this a genuine issue, or is this the usual enthusiast fodder where the 0.0001% dude listens to a 256 kbps VBR MP3 and swears he can hear the compression artifacts.
Profectors are garbage and need to be used in pitch black rooms. And it's not the criteria. CRTs are gone for a reason. You can buy one if you want. You can buy a projector too. No one is stopping you (except the drawbacks).At what price though?
I feel that in 2022 at a 50% premium against 1080p 75Hz screens you should have 2160p (4K) available. Instead they cost double and are often just 60 Hz.
I also feel 120 Hz screens (and 4K) should be common place once you get to the 300€ territory, it's nowhere near that.
So 480 Hz will be very expensive and I'd like them to focus on giving me 240 Hz at a price I don't have to sell a kidney.
If that was the criteria, projectors are unbeatable.
Yes the phantom array effect also known as the mouse cursor stepping effect will not disappear on LCDs/OLEDs til we hit 10,000 frames per second (yes that's right ten thousand frames per second!!!) I imagine it will be 50 years or more before we ever see screens with a 10,000hz refresh rate. And don't take it from me take it from the founder of blurbusters, look at the screenshot, it's from the blurbusters forum.Whats even worse is that mouse trail effect gets fainter as the refresh goes up, but gets alot more distracting since you can still see it, and more of it.
BFI (black frame insertion) is what all VR headsets are currently using to combat the atrocious motion blur that LCDs/OLEDs have. Every single VR headset is using black frame insertion, it was the only way to fix the horrible motion blur. I know this because I was reading the blog of Michael Abrash who is a virtual reality pioneer and is now developing the Oculus Quest for Zuckerberg (I would provide the link to the blog but unfortunately it was removed from the internet for some reason).I'm happy with the lower power consumption and lower weight given that the only trade off is motion blur.
I enjoy BFI on the monitors I've used it on, and if they could improve that technology (brightness counteraction, etc) and make it compatible with a wider range of refresh rates and VRR tech then it will definitely be good enough for all but the smallest niche.
Some more expensive Sony professional grade sets were able to autocalibrate geometry. that would be the future, I think.But the convergence has slipped a bit on the XBR960 over the years, thats one downside w/ CRT they need occasional calibration to keep things looking crisp.
Projectors can be good. I was pointing out that if it's down to weight when you get more inches weighting less with them.Profectors are garbage and need to be used in pitch black rooms. And it's not the criteria. CRTs are gone for a reason. You can buy one if you want. You can buy a projector too. No one is stopping you (except the drawbacks).
Yes. And BFI is basically simulating how CRT operated in the first place.BFI (black frame insertion) is what all VR headsets are currently using to combat the atrocious motion blur that LCDs/OLEDs have. Every single VR headset is using black frame insertion, it was the only way to fix the horrible motion blur. I know this because I was reading the blog of Michael Abrash who is a virtual reality pioneer and is now developing the Oculus Quest for Zuckerberg (I would provide the link to the blog but unfortunately it was removed from the internet for some reason).
16k will probably be mainstream before TV manufacturers start offering effective motion features beyond interpolation and TVs go beyond 120Hz. LG going backwards with BFI on the C2 isn’t a good sign. I don’t think microLED offers inherently better motion than the tech we have today, and you can bet it will be pushed first and foremost with uber-high resolution and other buzzwords when it’s ready for the mass market.I wonder if MicroLED will improve motion clarity when they go mainstream.
I still get a kick out of people telling me these sets would be in stores by 2021…I wonder if MicroLED will improve motion clarity when they go mainstream.
It isn't quite though, CRT refresh pulse is on a curve, not an even refresh split, not to mention being refresh rate limited to begin with.Yes. And BFI is basically simulating how CRT operated in the first place.
I'm not sure that they are though, afaik VR HMDs keep pixels lit for only around 1/3rd-1/4 of the refresh, which would mean their panels would have to run at ~480hz if it was just bfi. But maybe some hw engineer can answer how viable that was over 6 years ago.BFI (black frame insertion) is what all VR headsets are currently using to combat the
Same here, what's that motion blur people talk about? I've been playing on a crt tv up until 10 years ago alongside with playing on LCD and never noticed it... I'm a 20/20 eyes person btw so clearly my eyes are not the problem hereI know there is motion blur on my OLED and my LED, but I don't know that I am even bothered by it or notice it.
He may be confusing motion blur with low motion clarity. (motion blur can come from the source itself and not the display)Same here, what's that motion blur people talk about? I've been playing on a crt tv up until 10 years ago alongside with playing on LCD and never noticed it... I'm a 20/20 eyes person btw so clearly my eyes are not the problem here
I notice the stutter (what you guys are calling blur) when I look for it on my OLED. I can see it on 60fps content and barely on 120 fps content. Unfortunately I can't use BFI when VRR is enabled so I can't tell you if that will make a true difference.Same here, what's that motion blur people talk about? I've been playing on a crt tv up until 10 years ago alongside with playing on LCD and never noticed it... I'm a 20/20 eyes person btw so clearly my eyes are not the problem here
I wanna say they don’t exist (someone correct me if I’m wrong), that’s specifically talking about a glass screen CRTV. Once they started to sell the 55”screen to retail, it was a plexiglass glass (which introduced a whole new set of problems for image quality) screen and those are rear projection TVs at a 4, 9 ratio.How much do large 55 inch crts weigh? How deep are they? That might put some perspective in this crts are the greatest bullcrap around here these days.
its glorious never get rid of it.There is a reason why I whip out this baby (not too often, pic from last year).
1024x768 at 120hz ! (or like 1600x1200 at 75)
There are no 55 inch crts unless they're projection tvs. They're horrible.I
I wanna say they don’t exist (someone correct me if I’m wrong), that’s specifically talking about a glass screen CRTV. Once they started to sell the 55”screen to retail, it was a plexiglass glass (which introduced a whole new set of problems for image quality) screen and those are rear projection TVs at a 4, 9 ratio.
Ok, that I can understand because these days was looking for a way to avoid 30 looking so choppy on my TV, that's why I hate 30fps, but maybe that's the motion clarity thing some talk about and can't do nothing against itHe may be confusing motion blur with low motion clarity. (motion blur can come from the source itself and not the display)
When moving, the sharpness/detail on modern displays tends to fade a lot which shouldn't be the case ideally.
Just try to read something like text/signs when the camera scrolls/pans in games or text/signs on a moving truck across the screen.
www.testufo.com shows the motion clarity improving the more hz your display can do.
30fps indeed further degrades motion clarity - the dreaded 'soap-opera' effect is in part due to increased temporal clarity from higher refresh allowing us to see details that are otherwise mushed together at lower framerate.Ok, that I can understand because these days was looking for a way to avoid 30 looking so choppy on my TV, that's why I hate 30fps, but maybe that's the motion clarity thing some talk about and can't do nothing against it
I had a 36 inch CRT Sony tv, that thing weighed over 200lbs, it had an amazing picture though, sadly it was 4:3 so in HD it was letterboxed. That was pretty much the biggest CRT tv that was made, there may have been some other kind of specialty CRT that was out there somewhere but that was the biggest one you could find in a regular store.How much do large 55 inch crts weigh? How deep are they? That might put some perspective in this crts are the greatest bullcrap around here these days.
this makes it sound like interpolation is uncovering new details in source material (or un-mushing it), which isnt really true.the dreaded 'soap-opera' effect is in part due to increased temporal clarity from higher refresh allowing us to see details that are otherwise mushed together at lower framerate.
was it a VT20?I used to have a 60" Panasonic plasma (which I think was 1080p) and replaced it with a 65" Sony 4k 900e.
Call me crazy, but I dont think the 900e was any better. It definitely caused me more issues with dead pixels and audio issues. And I bought the Panny in like 2011.
I didnt do a side by side comparison, so I'll assume the resolution is much better on the 4k. But I think everything else was better on my plasma.
So there's two separate things here - one is perception.this makes it sound like interpolation is uncovering new details in source material (or un-mushing it), which isnt really true.
interpolation generates new frames between each frame of the original source material, but the new frames tend to be inaccurate/imperfect which is why you get the weird "soap opera" effect.
VT? No, that model I think those were the grand daddy models! I had the base model S30 I think. My brother got a 65" Panny plasma a few years later which I think was ST60 model. He still has it and still looks fantastic.was it a VT20?
Awesome set. No lcd is an upgrade to that when it comes to image, and OLED comes with image clarity issues.
I have a 2013 65VT60 at home. It's awesome. 4K. Is not interesting unless it improves motion.
S30/ST30 was awesome. I forgot they made those with up to 65".VT? No, that model I think those were the grand daddy models! I had the base model S30 I think. My brother got a 65" Panny plasma a few years later which I think was ST60 model. He still has it and still looks fantastic.
They're really good but not going to happen. Power consumption is high as is circuit/panel complexity. So peak brightness was also a problem against LCD.So what I’m reading here is we need plasmas back? Right?
Not going to happen. The tech is good but it was developed and patented by a videowall company called Prysm.How about laser-powered phosphor displays?
doesn't the brain itself have a wagon wheel like effect, as the brain and eye only have finite Hz processing?As I remember it CRTs still had that wagon wheel issue. Just wanted to point that out.
The fact that a perceptual experience akin to the familiar wagon-wheel illusion in movies and on TV can occur in the absence of stroboscopic presentation is intriguing because of its relevance to visuo-temporal parsing. The wagon-wheel effect in continuous light has also been the source of considerable misunderstanding and dispute, as is apparent in a series of recent papers. Here we review this potentially confusing evidence and suggest how it should be interpreted.
Some years ago we wrote a paper that described and analyzed an intriguing perceptual phenomenon, pointing out its possible implications [1]: when the spokes of a wheel or other stimuli with elements that move continuously in one direction are observed in sunlight, the elements are sometimes seen to be moving in the opposite direction. Because of the general similarity to the backwards motion of wagon wheels in movies, TV or other forms of stroboscopic presentation, we called this phenomenon the ‘wagon-wheel illusion in continuous light’ (see Box 1) and suggested on this basis that the visual system can segregate visual information into meaningful episodes from which perception is then constructed.
I know. I used to sell them. One reached 40 - the Sony XBR Trinitron. Fucking humongous and weighed like a 747. 4:3 aspect.I had a 36 inch CRT Sony tv, that thing weighed over 200lbs, it had an amazing picture though, sadly it was 4:3 so in HD it was letterboxed. That was pretty much the biggest CRT tv that was made, there may have been some other kind of specialty CRT that was out there somewhere but that was the biggest one you could find in a regular store.
There are diminishing returns of natural motion blur. You can’t expect to read or see details that scroll by fast.He may be confusing motion blur with low motion clarity. (motion blur can come from the source itself and not the display)
When moving, the sharpness/detail on modern displays tends to fade a lot which shouldn't be the case ideally.
Just try to read something like text/signs when the camera scrolls/pans in games or text/signs on a moving truck across the screen.
www.testufo.com shows the motion clarity improving the more hz your display can do.
Good luck trying to find a high res crt pc monitor that isn't in the thousands of dollars.CRTs have better motion clarity. They also have nearly zero input lag. A high-res PC monitor is better than an LCD in almost every way.
Living room TVs are different. Because size matters, there are more benefits having a big LCD.
Smaller CRT exist. And they don't consume much power.Go try to find a 55 inch CRT? LMFAO
The thing would weight well over 500lbs. Also they were power hogs and mostly did not come in wide screen.