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[methane47]

I don't understand how Devs max out the 360, using all of the 3 cores, but they are able to make the game run on the Ps3 using only 1 core that is underpowered in comparison to 1 of the 3 of the 360.

It's so weird.

Unless the "We don't use the SPEs" doesn't mean "The spes are just idle" and instead it means "We don't optimize properly for the SPEs, but still they are running code".

I have a hard time believing that the SPEs aren't doing anything, sorry, sounds bogus.

Please inform me of this game you are referring to that has maxed out The 360's 3 cores...


Remember that Bottlenecks in a system keep that system from running at the theoretical limits..

So just because the Xenon is more capable than the PPU on its own.. If all the CPU is doing in the first place is delegating.. and passing information to the GPU then you dont need your CPU to run at 100% if you can only pass so much data at a time.

Maybe a game doesn't need the Xenon processing at 110 jiggawatts in order for it to run properly.. Maybe all it needs is the PPU

 

[PistolGrip]

It just seems strange that one would complete ignore a major part of the console. I guess some developers do this but it would be like saying lets ignore 2 of the cores on 360.

Were you being ironic? because for the first year almost none of the 360 games used more than one core. Good thread btw.

As our expectations continue to rise and game developers get in touch with parellel programming we can expect this trend to continue upwards. I really cannot wait until what the future brings a few years from now.

 

[Psychotext]

It's my understanding that the PPU in the PS3 and an individual core of the 360 is identical: the IBM PowerPC 3.2 ghz chip. How could the same chip be underpowered on one system?

Not quite, but they are very similar.

 

[Merovingian]

The clue is in the name. CELL. The pieces are able to operate together in unity or operate seperately if the developer chooses. In the games named such as FEAR, the SPUs simply aren't active.

Even Carmack commented on the fact that most third parties don't use the SPUs in any way shape or form. They instead try and cram everything onto the PPE and that's when the PS3 gets stuff like Madden running at 30 fps. (For example)

Doesn't sound plausible.

The question still stands, how are they getting soo much performance from a lesser PPU in comparison to what they are getting out of the 3 of them, faster ones, on the 360?

Doesn't make any kind of sense.

Please inform me of this game you are referring to that has maxed out The 360's 3 cores...


Remember that Bottlenecks in a system keep that system from running at the theoretical limits..

So just because the Xenon is more capable than the PPU on its own.. If all the CPU is doing in the first place is delegating.. and passing information to the GPU then you dont need your CPU to run at 100% if you can only pass so much data at a time.

Maybe a game doesn't need the Xenon processing at 110 jiggawatts in order for it to run properly.. Maybe all it needs is the PPU

When i say max, is that all of the cores are working at full speed running the game code. And i hardly understand what you are trying to prove with the 2nd part of your post.

It's my understanding that the PPU in the PS3 and an individual core of the 360 is identical: the IBM PowerPC 3.2 ghz chip. How could the same chip be underpowered on one system?


What I find interesting is that at Factor 5, they're using the Cell for a lot of graphical stuff as well and not solely depending on the RSX to do all the heavy lifting as far as graphics go.

They have the same speed clock and share similar architecture, but Xenon has added capabilities. And while obviously not as fast as the SPes for such applications, Xenon can run graphics code too, kinda like how Xenos can run physics.

 

[sprocket]

Warhawk is a beautiful game. the clouds and water are just amazing.

 

[CoG]

The clue is in the name. CELL. The pieces are able to operate together in unity or operate seperately if the developer chooses. In the games named such as FEAR, the SPUs simply aren't active.

Actually, the Cell name does not refer to the SPEs, it refers to each Cell processor's ability to talk to other Cells to share tasks. For instance, your Cell-powered HDTV can upscale the video from your Cell-powered cable box. Very Ken Kat pie-in-the-sky stuff.

 

[MikeB]

Added the following comment to the OP.

11) Uncharted: Drake’s fortune

"Like the PS2 the PS3 is a sophisticated and powerful piece of hardware. Our engineers are working very hard at making specific optimizations to take full advantage of the Cell and its SPU's. However, there is so much depth to this machine, that much like the PS2, you will continue to see developers squeeze more and more out of it over the course of what I am sure is going to be a lengthy life-cycle."

Source: IGN

 

[PistolGrip]

Doesn't sound plausible.

The question still stands, how are they getting soo much performance from a lesser PPU in comparison to what they are getting out of the 3 of them, faster ones, on the 360?

Doesn't make any kind of sense.

They are most like not using the three 360 cores effeciently either if at all. Most of the porting problems from the 360 to the PS3 are due the way memory is implemented in one vs the other. Most company just don't bother to optimize it for the ps3.

 

[godhandiscen]

The PS3 has been out for a year and ppl still talk about its processor? I do not remember a level of hype so high for any other console processor.

 

[garrickk]

Not really, If you have an unoptimized PC game running well on one CPU core, there's a very good chance you can get almost the same performance on a Xbox 360 or PS3 even when you completely ignore the multiple-CPU Cores/SPEs in those machines. A game like Oblivion isn't optimized for the 360 at all, that was how Bethesda could promise this title so soon. Their only real problem was to make the game run well without a HD.

Not really. Any PC processor is designed for "general purpose", unoptimized code and some architectures have as much as 30% of their total transistor budgets dedicated to predictive branching execution. This allows them to maximize the total number of completed transactions at a given operating frequency.

A 3GHz PC processor will SMOKE the 360 or PS3 CPU's on any code that makes generous use of branches. In the long run, the game consoles will benefit from ripping out this branch prediction logic and instead multiplying cores. These are also much simpler processors to design because a lot of the "art" involved is actually in the branch prediction.

It's my understanding that the PPU in the PS3 and an individual core of the 360 is identical: the IBM PowerPC 3.2 ghz chip. How could the same chip be underpowered on one system?

This is wrong. It's been 9 months since I've read the breakdowns, but there are some functional differences. At the very least, the PPU has a cache all to itself that is 1/2 the size of the cache in the 360 that is shared to the 3 cores. I believe the PPU cache in the Cell is also quite a bit faster and of course dedicated to one core. For all we know (which is next to nothing), developers "maxing" out the 360 cores aren't filling up execution slots in the processors, but are bumping up against cache bandwidth (or system bandwidth). If this was the case (I HIGHLY doubt it is), the PPU of the Cell could be, in real world performance, 2-3 times "faster" than the 360 processor. We don't know.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Kameo was using 6 threads and PGR3 5 threads and they were launch games.

And neither Rare nor Bizarre Creations have any particularly close ties to MS that would have helped them to do that!


...wait.

 

[sakuragi]

The cell is the beast and that is pretty obvious, especially since Sony spent billions on it. To say its comparable to the Xbox 360's CPU is laughable by any stretch of imagination, and that is what Microsoft's PR wants you to think, that the PS3 and Xbox 360 are comparable in power. And then they might sight a few third party games and say they look pretty much the same but with the graphical edge given to the Xbox 360 like all the comparison video we see now and then from games video and gametrailers. Yet the funny thing is, most third party games dont even take advantage of the cell and the PS3's architecture. 3rd party games aren't the barometer to measure the capabilities of the 2 systems :lol . Oh dear, when will they get the memo.

 

[Memphis Reigns]

The cell is the beast and that is pretty obvious, especially since Sony spent billions on it. To say its comparable to the Xbox 360's CPU is laughable by any stretch of imagination, and that is what Microsoft's PR wants you to think, that the PS3 and Xbox 360 are comparable in power. And then they might sight a few third party games and say they look pretty much the same but with the graphical edge given to the Xbox 360 like all the comparison video we see now and then from games video and gametrailers. Yet the funny thing is, most third party games dont even take advantage of the cell and the PS3's architecture. 3rd party games aren't the barometer to measure the capabilities of the 2 systems :lol . Oh dear, when will they get the memo.

I hate fanboys like you. I don't even like PS3, but I came in for an interesting read. But all I read are sad posts like this.

 

[Merovingian]

The cell is the beast and that is pretty obvious, especially since Sony spent billions on it. To say its comparable to the Xbox 360's CPU is laughable by any stretch of imagination, and that is what Microsoft's PR wants you to think, that the PS3 and Xbox 360 are comparable in power. And then they might sight a few third party games and say they look pretty much the same but with the graphical edge given to the Xbox 360 like all the comparison video we see now and then from games video and gametrailers. Yet the funny thing is, most third party games dont even take advantage of the cell and the PS3's architecture. 3rd party games aren't the barometer to measure the capabilities of the 2 systems :lol . Oh dear, when will they get the memo.

O_O

 

[tanod]

The PS3 has been out for a year and ppl still talk about its processor? I do not remember a level of hype so high for any other console processor.

The cell is sufficiently different than any other processor currently available commercially and thus, interesting to talk about. This thread is about the architecture, not about hype.

 

[ex0du5]

Almost a year out and people are still trying to defend the CELL cpu. This is getting old and boring. Can we please drop it and just start concentrating on games?

How about you get out of the ****ing thread then? Some of us enjoy talking and reading about the more technical aspects of gaming. If you don't like it, then there are plenty of other threads for you to participate in.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

The PS3 has been out for a year and ppl still talk about its processor? I do not remember a level of hype so high for any other console processor.

Blame or commend Sony's marketing

 

[sakuragi]

I hate fanboys like you. I don't even like PS3, but I came in for an interesting read. But all I read are sad posts like this.

So you dont like the PS3 but happen to lurk in a PS3 specific thread and then you dare label me a fanboy? But please, instead of throwing labels at people, why dont you tell me what part of my post makes me a fanboy? did I say something to offend you or did I make up some facts? Care to elaborate? What part of my post is "sad"

 

[ex0du5]

What I find interesting is that at Factor 5, they're using the Cell for a lot of graphical stuff as well and not solely depending on the RSX to do all the heavy lifting as far as graphics go.

This seems to be key. It seems like the more work they stuff on the SPEs, the better, and they can leave the RSX to take care of vertex and pixel calculations and drawing. Alot of the devs seem to be using it for animations and determining what can be seen by the player... in other words: the non-concrete calculations regarding visuals.

 

[Merovingian]

This is not about hype or PR guys. It's about the validity of claims about the ammount of usage Cell as a whole gets.

Cell is a very interesting CPU, and from a theoretical standpoint, you can have CELL being 2 and 1/2 times as fast as Xenon. The question here is, if they aren't using Cell's strenghts, how in the hell is it keeping up so well with the 360?

It's either a case of

"Heh, 360 can run this fine as it is, no need to get to much into it" and they just trow the code at it, or this is all pretty much BS, and when they say they don't use the SPes, what they are saying is that they haven't optimized much for them.

 

[Orlics]

If Nostromo or someone would care to comment it would really, really help.

 

[noonche]

each SPE has its own very fast local memory storage and are real processors (not like a vector unit). The PS3 also has an additonal AltiVec unit.

While each SPE has some local memory it isn't very large. Additionally, it was my understanding that SPE's are not general purpose processors. They don't do out-of-order execution or branch prediction, and as such are really best suited to performing mathematical computations; kind of similar to the stream processors that are on new high-end graphic cards.

 

[Memphis Reigns]

So you dont like the PS3 but happen to lurk in a PS3 specific thread and then you dare label me a fanboy? But please, instead of throwing labels and people, why dont you tell me what part of my post makes me a fanboy? did I say something to offend you are did I make up some facts? Care to elaborate? What part of my post is "sad"

Its your attitude about it. You are just as arrogant as Sony. "laughable by any stretch of imagination"? Please, this is obviously just your opinion. Because any account i've read comparing the power of the two systems don't come close to saying that PS3s is THAT much better, especially not "laughable". That is why I labeled you a fanboy, because that is how your post came across. Are you telling me you aren't a Sony fanboy?

 

[noonche]

This is not about hype or PR guys. It's about the validity of claims about the ammount of usage Cell as a whole gets.

Cell is a very interesting CPU, and from a theoretical standpoint, you can have CELL being 2 and 1/2 times as fast as Xenon. The question here is, if they aren't using Cell's strenghts, how in the hell is it keeping up so well with the 360?

It's either a case of

"Heh, 360 can run this fine as it is, no need to get to much into it" and they just trow the code at it, or this is all pretty much BS, and when they say they don't use the SPes, what they are saying is that they haven't optimized much for them.

Or the games only run on a single core on the 360, so they port the code to PS3 and only run it on the PPC. This is likely what happens. This also explains why PS3 games don't have motion blur and some of the other post processing effects that 360 games do. The Xenos has a much higher fill-rate then RSX.

Think about it, games like Half-Life 2 came out years ago for PCs that didn't have multicores and graphics technology that wasn't as advanced as Xenos or RSX. Is it really surprising that they don't make use of the parallel architecture in the 360 or the PS3?

 

[sakuragi]

This is not about hype or PR guys. It's about the validity of claims about the ammount of usage Cell as a whole gets.

Cell is a very interesting CPU, and from a theoretical standpoint, you can have CELL being 2 and 1/2 times as fast as Xenon. The question here is, if they aren't using Cell's strenghts, how in the hell is it keeping up so well with the 360?

It's either a case of

"Heh, 360 can run this fine as it is, no need to get to much into it" and they just trow the code at it, or this is all pretty much BS, and when they say they don't use the SPes, what they are saying is that they haven't optimized much for them.

From what I understand with my lack of developing knowledge, Developers don't need to take advantage of the cell SPE or whatever for multiplatform game since there isn't a need for them. Like valve mentioned, they didn't need to use any of the cells SPE for half life to orange while they had to use 90 something percent of the Xbox 360's power capacity. Which from this quote, indicates that even without the cell's SPE, the PS3 is as powerful as the Xbox 360. However, if they did use all of the PS3's capabilities, the PS3 is indeed leaps and bounds ahead of the Xbox 360 in terms of power.

 

[WickedLaharl]

So you dont like the PS3 but happen to lurk in a PS3 specific thread and then you dare label me a fanboy?

well, are you not a sony fanboy? you've only got a handful of posts to dig through for anyone to make an argument against you about it.

anyway this thread was bound for system wars from the get go.

 

[tanod]

While each SPE has some local memory it isn't very large. Additionally, it was my understanding that SPE's are not general purpose processors. They don't do out-of-order execution or branch prediction, and as such are really best suited to performing mathematical computations; kind of similar to the stream processors that are on new high-end graphic cards.

All of the processors for the PS3 and the 360 are in-order processors, not general purpose. It's not just the SPEs.

 

[Zabka]

From what I understand with my lack of developing knowledge, Developers don't need to take advantage of the cell SPE or whatever for multiplatform game since there isn't a need for them. Like valve mentioned, they didn't need to use any of the cells SPE for half life to orange while they had to use 90 something percent of the Xbox 360's power capacity. Which from this quote, indicates that even without the cell's SPE, the PS3 is as powerful as the Xbox 360. However, if they did use all of the PS3's capabilities, the PS3 is indeed leaps and bounds ahead of the Xbox 360 in terms of power.

Stop quoting that bullshit interview. Valve is not a person, and all those "answers" came from an anonymous doofus on ps3forums.com who didn't even know EA was doing the PS3 version.

 

[Draft]

From what I understand with my lack of developing knowledge, Developers don't need to take advantage of the cell SPE or whatever for multiplatform game since there isn't a need for them. Like valve mentioned, they didn't need to use any of the cells SPE for half life to orange while they had to use 90 something percent of the Xbox 360's power capacity. Which from this quote, indicates that even without the cell's SPE, the PS3 is as powerful as the Xbox 360. However, if they did use all of the PS3's capabilities, the PS3 is indeed leaps and bounds ahead of the Xbox 360 in terms of power.

You're right, a Valve dev from Vivendi did confirm that. No amount of bitter Xbot tears can change that simple statement.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

From what I understand with my lack of developing knowledge, Developers don't need to take advantage of the cell SPE or whatever for multiplatform game since there isn't a need for them. Like valve mentioned, they didn't need to use any of the cells SPE for half life to orange while they had to use 90 something percent of the Xbox 360's power capacity. Which from this quote, indicates that even without the cell's SPE, the PS3 is as powerful as the Xbox 360. However, if they did use all of the PS3's capabilities, the PS3 is indeed leaps and bounds ahead of the Xbox 360 in terms of power.

Computation power and you would be foolish to believe that article

 

[sakuragi]

Its your attitude about it. You are just as arrogant as Sony. "laughable by any stretch of imagination"? Please, this is obviously just your opinion. Because any account i've read comparing the power of the two systems don't come close to saying that PS3s is THAT much better, especially not "laughable". That is why I labeled you a fanboy, because that is how your post came across. Are you telling me you aren't a Sony fanboy?

So now If I prefer the PS3 over the Wii and Xbox 360, Im a fanboy? I find it rather Ironic since I dont have a PS3 yet but I'm planing to buy one though. However, I do have a Wii so that makes my a Nintendo fanboy now? I dont get how me stating that the PS3 is more powerful that the Xbox 360 (which is a fact) makes my a fanboy now. My tone my have sounded rather strong, but thats just me when im fed up of all the misinformations and bullshit that comes out of site such as the ones I mentioned previously. Arent fanboys the ones who spread false information? If thats the case, then my post was clearly not fiction. Or maybe you're definition of fanboy is different from mine.

 

[Merovingian]

Or the games only run on a single core on the 360, so they port the code to PS3 and only run it on the PPC. This is likely what happens. This also explains why PS3 games don't have motion blur and some of the other post processing effects that 360 games do. The Xenos has a much higher fill-rate then RSX.

Think about it, games like Half-Life 2 came out years ago for PCs that didn't have multicores and graphics technology that wasn't as advanced as Xenos or RSX. Is it really surprising that they don't make use of the parallel architecture in the 360 or the PS3?

Unfortunately, i don't know enough about about the technical side of developing for a console. For me i allways saw it as "these guys know what they are doing, and they know how the console works before they get their hands on it", so i've been very surprised to see that apparently, they know very little in the beggining. I have this idea that programmers love this stuff and know alot, but lately all i hear is "lazy" :lol

From what I understand with my lack of developing knowledge, Developers don't need to take advantage of the cell SPE or whatever for multiplatform game since there isn't a need for them. Like valve mentioned, they didn't need to use any of the cells SPE for half life to orange while they had to use 90 something percent of the Xbox 360's power capacity. Which from this quote, indicates that even without the cell's SPE, the PS3 is as powerful as the Xbox 360. However, if they did use all of the PS3's capabilities, the PS3 is indeed leaps and bounds ahead of the Xbox 360 in terms of power.

Hmm, well....i don't really know how to respond to that.

 

[sakuragi]

Computation power and you would be foolish to believe that article

I may be ignorant but Im not foolish. I assume a developer would know how to develop games better than I :lol . I merely stated what I have understood from their quotes.

 

[tanod]

Stop quoting that bullshit interview. Valve is not a person, and all those "answers" came from an anonymous doofus on ps3forums.com who didn't even know EA was doing the PS3 version.

QFT. People need to stop quoting that. The interview isn't real.

BTW, I knew EA was doing HL2 but which EA studio is doing it?

 

[soco]

Cell is a very interesting CPU, and from a theoretical standpoint, you can have CELL being 2 and 1/2 times as fast as Xenon. The question here is, if they aren't using Cell's strenghts, how in the hell is it keeping up so well with the 360?

2.5 times? where does that number come from? is this one of those "if you're an application only happens to do floating point work, the PPC is X times faster than the X86" circa 1997 statements.

the answer to the last question, though, is likely that most games, are probably limited more by the GPU (and probably mostly by a lack of optimization on both platforms) than the CPU.

 

[Psychotext]

You're right, a Valve dev from Vivendi did confirm that. No amount of bitter Xbot tears can change that simple statement.

:lol

 

[tanod]

2.5 times? where does that number come from? is this one of those "if you're an application only happens to do floating point work, the PPC is X times faster than the X86" circa 1997 statements.

I think he meant simply 8 (1 3.2ghz PPU + 7 3.2 ghz SPUs) divided by 3 (3 3.2 ghz PPUs) equals about 2.5.

FYI: There are 8 SPUs on the PS3 cell chip and 1 is disabled to improve chip manufacturing yields. Additionally, another 1 of the SPUs is partially reserved for the XMB.

 

[chris0701]

Mike B, did you refer that a mulit-platform game was not using SPEs at all if there were no info of them?

 

[Memphis Reigns]

So now If I prefer the PS3 over the Wii and Xbox 360, Im a fanboy? I find it rather Ironic since I dont have a PS3 yet but I'm planing to buy one though. However, I do have a Wii so that makes my a Nintendo fanboy now? I dont get how me stating that the PS3 is more powerful that the Xbox 360 (which is a fact) makes my a fanboy now. My tone my have sounded rather strong, but thats just me when im fed up of all the misinformations and bullshit that comes out of site such as the ones I mentioned previously. Arent fanboys the ones who spread false information? If thats the case, then my post was clearly not fiction. Or maybe you're definition of fanboy is different from mine.

Did you read my post? I told you why I thought you were a fanboy. ITS YOUR ATTITUDE. And nowhere in there did I say I thought you were a fanboy because you "preferred" it. Don't respond to this because I am done arguing with you.

 

[Merovingian]

2.5 times? where does that number come from? is this one of those "if you're an application only happens to do floating point work, the PPC is X times faster than the X86" circa 1997 statements.

Yeah, vector performance. But in think the PS3 can only use 6 spes, so that figure would be lower.
But yeah i mean, it's all theoreticall, i don't know real performance numbers. I don't code for these things :lol

And since every 3rd party developer is deemed a liar, it's hard to understand the reality. Obviously, i hear carmack, and he says the Ps3 has about 20% more theoreticall power, and hell they even have one of the best PS3 coders working with them, and i like to believe them, but then everybody says its bs.
And developers (like nostromo) hardly ever say anything concrete about it, so...hey:lol

 

[Draft]

:lol

Why are you laughing? PS3 is more powerful that the X360 (which is a fact) and trusted devs like Valve from Vivendi are confirming that publicly every day now.

 

[Psychotext]

I think he meant simply 8 (1 3.2ghz PPU + 7 3.2 ghz SPUs) divided by 3 (3 3.2 ghz PPUs) equals about 2.5.

=O

That's really not how processors work! :lol

 

[Beer Monkey]

Leaps and Bounds? :lol

There are great games for both systems. All this hardware wars stuff, just, wow.

 

[tanod]

=O

That's really not how processors work! :lol

I know that. :lol I was just trying to figure out what he meant. Read my post a little more closely.

 

[Dire]

It's largely irrelevant how well the 360 or PS3 can ideally/optimally perform. A system's performance is strictly limited by a developer's ability to practically exploit said performance. A console's 'potential' means nothing if it is impractical to unleash it.

 

[soco]

Yeah, vector performance. But in think the PS3 can only use 6 spes, so that figure would be lower.
But yeah i mean, it's all theoreticall, i don't know real performance numbers. I don't code for these things :lol

yeah you probably don't wanna throw that number out much anymore. if you wanna do it, you should at least consider that each of the 360 cores can handle two simultaneous threads (there are restrictions on how that works, but in essence, it's possible) and adjust the math accordingly, but still, it's a useless calculation in a technical discussion there's also a bit more to that, such as both having special opcodes which can accelerate certain calculations on both platforms.

the CELL's PPE is supposed to be similar to the Xenon's cores, which would likely explain how it's able to keep up with many 360 games, without using the SPUs. (knowing, still, that many games don't fully utilize those cores very well, if at all)

 

[sakuragi]

:lol

It nice to know that you have a sense of humor and all, but from your laughter

Spoiler

( or fake laughter with bitter tears)

I sense that you disagree with me that the PS3 is indeed more powerful than the Xbox 360. So I would like to read what opinion do you have in this matter. Thanks in advance.

 

[Beer Monkey]

It nice to know that you have a sense of humor and all, but from your laughter

Spoiler

( or fake laughter with bitter tears)

I sense that you disagree with me that the PS3 is indeed more powerful than the Xbox 360. So I would like to read what opinion do you have in this matter. Thanks in advance.

Dude, you are the guy who says that the PS3 is 'leaps and bounds' more powerful than the 360. I'd say the burden of proof is on you. :lol

 

[sakuragi]

Leaps and Bounds? :lol

There are great games for both systems. All this hardware wars stuff, just, wow.

Its funny because I could have sworn the discussion was about Hardware rather than software. We already have hundreds of thread about great games already.

 

[pr0cs]

sigh...
as usual a semi-interesting thread discussing software development and how different devs leverage the hardware has gone down the fucking toilet due to system wars.

where is the banhammer when you need him.