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Sen No Kiseki III |Import OT| Teacher by day, Military Officer by night

Bebpo

Banned
i don't think it would take them two years. Falcom always has one major release in September right before they close the fiscal year and we have no indication on any other game whatsoever besides Sen4. They also have most assets and direction anyway so i don't expect it to take more than a year. Especially not with the ballsy ending.
It also depends how true the rumour about Chinese publishers asking for a split is true though .

The way I see it, it's one way or the other. You either get your expanded final chapter cut off from Sen 3 in a year, or you get a full big standalone game that's 100 hours in two years. Everyone whose finished Sen 3 expects Sen 4 to be more like the latter, so realistically I'm expecting two years.

Also after Sen 1 came out I thought like within a week or two Falcom made an official statement that said don't worry about the cliffhanger, Sen 2 will be out in a year. No statements about Sen 4's release window yet...

Also the Chinese publisher thing is bs.
 

nivorae

Member
The way I see it, it's one way or the other. You either get your expanded final chapter cut off from Sen 3 in a year, or you get a full big standalone game that's 100 hours in two years. Everyone whose finished Sen 3 expects Sen 4 to be more like the latter, so realistically I'm expecting two years.

Also after Sen 1 came out I thought like within a week or two Falcom made an official statement that said don't worry about the cliffhanger, Sen 2 will be out in a year. No statements about Sen 4's release window yet...

Also the Chinese publisher thing is bs.

we're having a big Dengeki issue half November that probably will indicate the future. I do have faith they will achieve the next game, complete, in a year still.
another sen2-ish game would make everything too unresolved because we still have the Steel that has to be split, the Golden Divine Knight, probable purification of Valimar, Osbourne and Ourorboros fighting over the fire sept-terrion, what is going to happen with the earth one. And that are just the major plot points.
 
Reading Amazon reviews, I wonder if some fans will drop the series after Sen III.

we're having a big Dengeki issue half November that probably will indicate the future. I do have faith they will achieve the next game, complete, in a year still.
another sen2-ish game would make everything too unresolved because we still have the Steel that has to be split, the Golden Divine Knight, probable purification of Valimar, Osbourne and Ourorboros fighting over the fire sept-terrion, what is going to happen with the earth one. And that are just the major plot points.

Does "we're having a big Dengeki issue" mean that there will be some sort of Falcom blow out? Just after a major game was released?
 

PK Gaming

Member
Reading Amazon reviews, I wonder if some fans will drop the series after Sen III.



Does "we're having a big Dengeki issue" mean that there will be some sort of Falcom blow out? Just after a major game was released?

Don't count on it. Those fans aren't going to pass up a chance for "closure"

(not to mention complaining about the sequel)
 
Don't count on it. Those fans aren't going to pass up a chance for "closure"

(not to mention complaining about the sequel)

Of course, many fans who are upset with elements of a long running series like Kiseki will buy the following title anyways, but the review page is full of fans who don't feel like they've received any amount of closure in the past 3 titles and are beginning to doubt that they ever will. I don't think the reviews of Sen III are just people who love to complain. They're largely fans of the series who have mixed to negative reception of Sen III. The biggest complaints seem to be

1. The ending
2. The lack of plot movement / excess of posturing
3. Quality of the Japanese dialogue.

Even the 3 star reviews are highly critical.
 

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
Feels more like sen 1/2 backlash lack of plot movement is hard to understand. Sen III is such a full game. Again I believe people are mostly soured on the first two and that bleeding into Sen III reception + Falcom should have just outright said Sen III is not the finale.
 

nivorae

Member
Reading Amazon reviews, I wonder if some fans will drop the series after Sen III.



Does "we're having a big Dengeki issue" mean that there will be some sort of Falcom blow out? Just after a major game was released?
we have no idea but it's generally expected to have a lot of information
Of course, many fans who are upset with elements of a long running series like Kiseki will buy the following title anyways, but the review page is full of fans who don't feel like they've received any amount of closure in the past 3 titles and are beginning to doubt that they ever will. I don't think the reviews of Sen III are just people who love to complain. They're largely fans of the series who have mixed to negative reception of Sen III. The biggest complaints seem to be

1. The ending
2. The lack of plot movement / excess of posturing
3. Quality of the Japanese dialogue.

Even the 3 star reviews are highly critical.
Amazon reviews in Japan are a shitshow because they are fuelled by rage and overreaction. I don't think anyone is satisfied with the ending but the ending does not invalidate how good everything else in the game is. But it also is Kondo's fault because he was giving the impression this would be the finale which it clearly is not.
 
There are rage reviews, but there are also "positive" reviews that are critical of the same elements. A number of reviews are rather lengthy, from fans who clearly took the time to write up their honest thoughts about the game. Thoughts that made an attempt to point out what they felt was good about Sen III.

Feels more like sen 1/2 backlash lack of plot movement is hard to understand. Sen III is such a full game. Again I believe people are mostly soured on the first two and that bleeding into Sen III reception + Falcom should have just outright said Sen III is not the finale.

Sen I & II surely play a part in their reaction, but they are talking about Sen III.

Regarding the plot, one word came up again and again - "思わせぶり"

Review after review contains this sentiment:

長年軌跡やってる自分でも嫌気がさして呆れました
本当このシリーズ自分が死ぬまでに完結してないんじゃないかな

Falcom needs fans to do more than want to see what will happen next. They need fans to be satisfied with what they have played to look forward to another satisfying experience. If I were Falcom, I would be worried.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Yeah, AmazonJP reviews are pretty much a joke.

The experiences from people I trust hold a lot more weight than a bunch of angry, entitled fans. Not to say that the game is faultless, but those reviews tend to completely miss the mark. Even positive ones, like Persona 5's near universal praise was misleading.
 

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
Sen I & II surely play a part in their reaction, but they are talking about Sen III.

"思わせぶり"

What I'm saying is that Sen 1/2 is influencing their judgement on Sen III maybe unfairly and way too strongly. I've seen the reviews and a lot of complaints don't seem very logical(like the plot movement one as I already explained). They just scream to me people went it with the expectation that sen 3 is the finale + getting tired of erebonia after Sen1/2 padded so badly. I strongly believe the tune would be entirely different if Sen1/2 were one game. Cause Sen 3 is really great. Every chapter has it's own climax with real stuff going down. It also doesn't help that Sen 3 at it's core shares a lot of similarities in content to the first two only adding to the tiredness.

I myself had to readjust my expectations but once I got over that and took Sen 3 for what it was I can only say I was pretty happy.
It's very much unlike sen 1/2 which I still liked but even when finishing they did not feel as great as the sky saga, I can only imagine it being even worse for people that got to sen after crossbell which I'd say was Falcom's magnum opus for their sprite based games.
 

Nyoro SF

Member
I think Falcom will be just fine. Their finale games don't fail to deliver on the hype and the story beats.

Also JP release dates as a reminder;
Zero - 09-30-2010
Azure - 09-29-2011
Cold Steel 1 - 09-26-2013
Cold Steel 2 - 09-25-2014
Cold Steel 3 - 09-28-2017

People saying that they'll be dead before the Kiseki series finishes are being drama queens. Though Amazon reviews can be useful to get opinions, it can also be a platform for venting.
 

Shouta

Member
It's a catch-22 for Falcom. They have folks complaining now but if Falcom sped up their timetable or abridged their storytelling just to reveal points and get further, then folks would complain even more about them not doing things properly.

I can understand some of the annoyance with the teasing in the game as you definitely want to see everything be revealed and why the hell is there all this crazy shit. We're on the cusp of understanding the motivations of the villains in this unlike Sky or Crossbell and that really adds to the anticipation. That's not Falcom's claim to fame. It's always been about their well-realized, detailed world building and plot/story lines. Being able to go back and look at different things and seeing it in a different light because of stuff that happens later

I will agree that the dialogue needs a little bit more clean-up though. Falcom's dialogue can definitely feel a little mechanical at times. They use いずれにせよ too goddamn much.
 

Jiraiza

Member
I will agree that the dialogue needs a little bit more clean-up though. Falcom's dialogue can definitely feel a little mechanical at times. They use いずれにせよ too goddamn much.

One of the side effects of having way too many characters.
 

Bebpo

Banned
I’m fine with the speed of the overall plot movement at this point. I mean Erebonia never should’ve been 4 games, and the dual story arcs with Zero/Ao was way too ambitious most likely. But it is what it is and whether it’s one year or two years or even three years, when we get Sen IV that’s it, that’s the end that will wrap all this up and I’m fine with it. I can wait a few years knowing there’s no more delay, no more padding, the next game is it, the conclusion to this all.

Now if they pull a Sen V, that’s when I bail :p

People saying that they'll be dead before the Kiseki series finishes are being drama queens.

Welllllll, depends on how old you are and your luck with life ;p

I mean if Calvard (which country-size is as big as Erebonia) is 3-4 games and then another arc or two of 2-4 game arcs...idk I mean we’re probably looking at another 10-20 years easy.

And that’s only if they do Calvard, the Church country and that’s it. If they decide to expand the series scope and start covering countries in Eastern Zemuria too, lol Hondo’s gonna be 90 when he finished the story. I don’t think they’ll go that direction though. Maybe after they finish the series they’ll start a new overarching sequel story there.
 

Thoraxes

Member
I think a lot of expectations also figured that this game would end the stuff from the end of Ao as well, in addition to the two other huge things in Erebonia. At least I certainly dod, and thought that it would be an an same amount of ground to cover in one game.

So I guess in that regard, given what I've played so far and where I think they'll end the game, I'm actually happy that stuff has room to breathe. Rushing it wouldn't have done the great material justice.

I agree about the writing a little too though, in addition to all the fufu, haha, heh, etc. This is my first JP Kiseki game though, so if they were in the previous games, I have no way of knowing. Some of the repeated text helps me read faster though, haha.
 

Bebpo

Banned
Speaking of JP text, is it just me or does Kiseki use pretty high level of Japanese for a game? Every time I come across kanji I don’t know and look it up it’s always JLPT 1 level stuff.

Reminds me of stuff like Xenosaga compared to most jrpgs that are very teen level of Japanese like Tales or FF.

I mean I like it, makes the writing feel more mature with varied prose. It feels fairly well written to me.

Which kind of contrasts with the BIG BOOB 13 year old redesigns. That was such a mistake. Hell, I’m pretty sure that like Tales, a huge portion of the Kiseki players are women. Then again the game has lots of Bishy guys too. And lolis, hmmmm....fanservice for all? Which is totally unnecessary for an intellectual story with developed characters like this.
 

Bebpo

Banned
Btw, been meaning to write a post about how Kiseki is very behind the ball (along with many Japan developers) when it comes to handling sexual diversity. There’s almost no LGBT characters in the world and when there are like Angelica it’s ridiculously overdone and played like a joke that she incredibly creeps on every female in the game -_- It’d be one thing to just not include any LGBT characters, but including them and making them exaggerated or creepy for laughs is a problem so many jrpg developers have (like Persona).

Like it’d be nice, since Kiseki so slice of life and has so many cast members who are very developed, if they had a main character dealing with their sexuality as their character arc, like I kinda felt early on they might go that way with Elliot or Kurt.
 

Thoraxes

Member
I don't think I'd call it fanservice for all... I'd just call the casts diverse. I think trying to classify everyone by a trope and body type doesn't really do the game justice. That's just how I look the characters though.

Obviously their sexual representation has a ways to go (as can be said for almost all games), and Zemuria has a different set of races in the West than East, but I think in terms of gender/body types the diversity of the casts/NPCs has always been pretty good.

And with the text, yeah. I've been making heavy use of online resources, which is why I'm going so slow.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Btw, been meaning to write a post about how Kiseki is very behind the ball (along with many Japan developers) when it comes to handling sexual diversity. There's almost no LGBT characters in the world and when there are like Angelica it's ridiculously overdone and played like a joke that she incredibly creeps on every female in the game -_- It'd be one thing to just not include any LGBT characters, but including them and making them exaggerated or creepy for laughs is a problem so many jrpg developers have (like Persona).

Like it'd be nice, since Kiseki so slice of life and has so many cast members who are very developed, if they had a main character dealing with their sexuality as their character arc, like I kinda felt early on they might go that way with Elliot or Kurt.

For once we agree. That said, the issue isn't specific to Kiseki or game development but Japanese society as a whole. Media is a reflection society and homosexuality isn't accepted as something normal yet (and if studies are right, intolerance is still a huge problem). It's still "the quirky" thing in media, though anime and manga are getting a little better about it.

It's funny, because when I experienced Angelica for the first time I actually thought she was pretty cool. Here's this unabashed lesbian in a JRPG. No baiting or her being a bad guy or any of that supremely creepy stuff. Sure she was an obnoxious flirt, but she wasn't defined by her sexuality and a respectful character in her own right. I had hoped that Falcom would further evolve her character in Sen III. Being a flirt is nice and all, but I think the next logical step in her character arc is settling down with someone. And man, it might have seemed like I was joking with those "give Angelica a girlfriend" posts, but I really wasn't, and I think doing that would have a gone a long way towards normalizing homosexuality. Because for the most part, her lesbianism is mostly fodder for gags.

Thankfully Sen III's nowhere near as bad as Persona about it. What an absolute shitshow, and especially laughable in a game about breaking free from society's restraints.
 

Bebpo

Banned
I don't think I'd call it fanservice for all.. I'd just call the casts diverse. I think trying to classify everyone by a trope and body type doesn't really do the game justice. That's just how I look the character though.

Obviously their sexual representation has a ways to go (as can be said for almost all games), and Zemuria has a different set of races in the West than East, but I think in terms of gender/body types the diversity of the casts/NPCs has always been pretty good.

And with the text, yeah. I've been making heavy use of online resources, which is why I'm going so slow.

I mean when almost every woman who is not a flat-chested loli has giant boobs almost bursting from their clothes we're approaching Senran Kagura territory. It's a bit ridiculous and unnecessary imo.
 

Shouta

Member
Kiseki definitely uses a lot of uncommon or even obscure Japanese. Lots of kanji and words I've never encountered in regular, modern conversation. Then there's the difference in speaking styles as well.

It'd be nice to see some LGBTQ rep in Kiseki but I'm just not sure how they'd integrate it into the story. Most of the characters have backstories tied to things that are happening to the plot or their position within it. That's a huge part of what makes the Kiseki characters strong. Without it, I don't think the characterization and development would be as poignant as it has been.

That said, Sen isn't actually devoid of it. You have two characters in there,
Angelica and Shirley. Both are into women and their comments to one another when the encounter each other for the first time was kinda amusing. Though, there is a curious comment from Towa about Angelica and George being an item considering their long term relationship but even then they were like who knows, as I recall, lol.

Only real issue is Angelica's characterization in that respect, she's kind of aggressively creepy at times without the amusing. It feels like she was a bit more than what it was in Sen 1 & 2. Shirley is actually like that too but she's also batshit crazy to begin with anyway.

I mean when almost every woman who is not a flat-chested loli has giant boobs almost bursting from their clothes we're approaching Senran Kagura territory. It's a bit ridiculous and unnecessary imo.

Eh, the designs in previous games aren't that different in that area. Where it's changed in this game is the modelling is ridiculous and there's more skimpy clothing in general. They've been sliding down that slope since Zero and Ao though....
 

Loz246789

Member
I haven't been playing Sen 3 like the rest of you (I've just been lurking for spoiler free impressions, sue me), so maybe this has all changed somehow, but I think one thing Angelica excels at is being a Kiseki character. Sure, she dips into a few stereotypes here and there, but she's actually got a lot going on besides being a perverted lesbian. She likes motorcycles, she's besties with Rean and other members of her year, she's got a complicated relationship with her father, and then her fighting style has a bit of history if you look into it.

Don't get me wrong, she needs a proper girlfriend stat, but otherwise I really like her in terms of representation, she feels human. Which uh, is surprisingly rare.
 

vkrili

Member
Angelica's development in CS1 and 2 is way more empowering than any sort of melodrama or some sad backstory. She's gay and she loves and owns it and the resolution of her CS2 plot is beating the shit out of her her dad who just slightly changes himself because of it. Because Angie herself doesn't need to change. I'll take that over any Biowareian lesbian.
 

Thoraxes

Member
I mean when almost every woman who is not a flat-chested loli has giant boobs almost bursting from their clothes we're approaching Senran Kagura territory. It's a bit ridiculous and unnecessary imo.
I think that's just a flaw or inadequacy with their modeling and art pipelines rather than pandering intent (though I can't deny it doesn't exist at all, obviously). Yes some of the proportions are whack (if not somewhat consistent) The clothing and emphasis on such features though, I can agree with you. That said moving to PS4 has normalized some characters a little more than others, whIle some seem to have gone even farther.

I really like what they've done with Laura, for instance. And Claire has a more average build as well. Though they've gone super skinny for their arstyle this game overall in terms of waists, I think if they realistically had the manpower to customize each one from scratch, they'd do it.
Kiseki definitely uses a lot of uncommon or even obscure Japanese. Lots of kanji and words I've never encountered in regular, modern conversation. Then there's the difference in speaking styles as well.

It'd be nice to see some LGBTQ rep in Kiseki but I'm just not sure how they'd integrate it into the story. Most of the characters have backstories tied to things that are happening to the plot or their position within it. That's a huge part of what makes the Kiseki characters strong. Without it, I don't think the characterization and development would be as poignant as it has been.

That said, Sen isn't actually devoid of it. You have two characters in there,
Angelica and Shirley. Both are into women and their comments to one another when the encounter each other for the first time was kinda amusing. Though, there is a curious comment from Towa about Angelica and George being an item considering their long term relationship but even then they were like who knows, as I recall, lol.

Only real issue is Angelica's characterization in that respect, she's kind of aggressively creepy at times without the amusing. It feels like she was a bit more than what it was in Sen 1 & 2. Shirley is actually like that too but she's also batshit crazy to begin with anyway.
Re: George, if you did the festival bonding event in Sen I, Crow also talks about that relationship, basically telling Rean that he's blind if he can't see it.

(Also I totally agree with your previous points as well)
 

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
I'm pretty glued to jisho a lot of times when rose, lianne, when characters using old speak appear. Kiseki is def challenging kanji wise but I'm happy to reached a point in my ability where it still feels mostly comfortable with how much I have to look up.
 

Shouta

Member
I think that's just a flaw or inadequacy with their modeling and art pipelines rather than pandering intent (though I can't deny it doesn't exist at all, obviously). Yes some of the proportions are whack (if not somewhat consistent) The clothing and emphasis on such features though, I can agree with you. That said moving to PS4 has normalized some characters a little more than others, whIle some seem to have gone even farther.

I really like what they've done with Laura, for instance. And Claire has a more average build as well. Though they've gone super skinny for their arstyle this game overall in terms of waists, I think if they realistically had the manpower to customize each one from scratch, they'd do it.
Re: George, if you did the festival bonding event in Sen I, Crow also talks about that relationship, basically telling Rean that he's blind if he can't see it.

(Also I totally agree with your previous points as well)

Oh, I think I missed that in Sen I since I didn't see all of the bonding events. I'll have to pay more attention the next time I play Sen 1 and Sen 2 and see how they interact with each other.
 

PK Gaming

Member
That said, Sen isn't actually devoid of it. You have two characters in there,
Angelica and Shirley. Both are into women and their comments to one another when the encounter each other for the first time was kinda amusing. Though, there is a curious comment from Towa about Angelica and George being an item considering their long term relationship but even then they were like who knows, as I recall, lol.

Only real issue is Angelica's characterization in that respect, she's kind of aggressively creepy at times without the amusing. It feels like she was a bit more than what it was in Sen 1 & 2. Shirley is actually like that too but she's also batshit crazy to begin with anyway.

Wait, is
Shirley into women too? That's actually pretty neat. I mean her going around groping is a big no-no, but the simple fact that they avoided having a single character be "the gay one" is interesting.

Also Towa's a dumbass in regards to Angie's relationship. She always seems to think she's kidding around, even though she has a little harem of women...
 

Nyoro SF

Member
My Japanese has gotten much better since my Crossbell playthrough but, all these extremely specific military terms are out of my league. Whenever Claire or Michael starts talking in their ultra polite speech describing these esoteric military scenarios it just becomes impossible for me. Randy's slang doesn't help either but that's always been a problem. Can't forget to many times where more archaic Japanese is used.
 

Cruixant

Member
Language-wise the Kiseki series is probably the hardest I've encountered in videogames too, although I haven't played Xenosaga. A lot of the words I search seem to be hyougaiji, with a bunch of N1 kanji popping up as well. Although, I also find that Falcom can tend to use a lot of the same vocabulary and set phrases at times. This is probably more of an issue with how they write some minor cutscenes though. Like for example when they start talking about your 特務活動演習 objectives.

Regarding the pace of the kiseki series and Sen 4, I'm getting more comfortable with the idea because Sen 3 already starts answering some of the lingering questions you had since 1 tied to the backstory, even if it doesn't necessarily advance the plot by a great deal per se (at least at the point I'm currently at). It definitely feels like the equivalent of SC and Ao instead of another "first chapter". If Sen 4 can manage this pace while solving the remaining mysteries it's going to be one hell of a ride.
 

Jiraiza

Member
Whoa, all this LGBT talk and Michel gets Zero mention? Probably the best gay guy done in a JRPG I've seen. And a small mention to Randy, too; not that he's gay, but that he handles the situations where homosexuality comes up pretty well and funny to boot. All Zero and Ao stuff, though.

latest
 
Neither Angelica nor Shirley have anything to do with LGBT representation. Being female excuses them from harassment intended to excite male players, that would otherwise be considered distasteful from male characters.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Neither Angelica nor Shirley have anything to do with LGBT representation. Being female excuses them from harassment intended to excite male players, that would otherwise be considered distasteful from male characters.

Half right, half wrong

It's true that CS plays into that with Angelica, but they also do a good job of establishing that she is in fact, a lesbian, with characters treating her as such. Alisa's discount grandpa referring to her as his "lady killing protege", Crow griping about how much better she is at picking up women and other incidental dialogue (she has literal girlfriends) do a good job of selling her homosexuality. I mean the fact that she loves motorcycles is pretty... overt.

Whoa, all this LGBT talk and Michel gets Zero mention? Probably the best gay guy done in a JRPG I've seen. And a small mention to Randy, too; not that he's gay, but that he handles the situations where homosexuality comes up pretty well and funny to boot. All Zero and Ao stuff, though.

Holy shit, this guy looks lit.
 
I don't even think Angelica is gay, pretty sure several characters have alluded to a George-Angelica pairing. She's just constantly stuck in a "rebel without a cause"-phase and aggressively hitting on females is part of that. She's a pretender.

And poor Randy. They put him in a Sen game and behold! He turned boring, like the rest of the cast. Writing in these games really went down the shitter after the Crossbell arc.
 

Shouta

Member
Whoa, all this LGBT talk and Michel gets Zero mention? Probably the best gay guy done in a JRPG I've seen. And a small mention to Randy, too; not that he's gay, but that he handles the situations where homosexuality comes up pretty well and funny to boot. All Zero and Ao stuff, though.

Michel is pretty great but I was mostly referring to characters that are a bit closer to the forefront myself, lol.

Angelica is definitely lesbian but potentially bi if what Towa and Crowe had said is true. I brought up Shirley because she definitely has an interest in women in that way as her interactions with the men are a bit different. Granted, she's a psychopathic monster with a massive fucking chainsaw but she's definitely into the ladies.

I just finished Chapter 4 and maaaaaan, so much stuff in that chapter.
 

Jiraiza

Member
And poor Randy. They put him in a Sen game and behold! He turned boring, like the rest of the cast. Writing in these games really went down the shitter after the Crossbell arc.

Randy's still pretty fun, if you ask me. Though not having someone like Tio to bounce off at all times does make it hard for him to shine like he did in the Crossbell games. But hey, the occasional moments he gets with Tio in CS3 are absolutely golden. Randy, Agate, and Tita are another fun combination, too.
 
Well I beat the game. Here are my thoughts.

STORY

The good:

I thought I would loathe the decision to go back to school and to start over again. But Rean as a teacher worked better than I thought. I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that he has "grown as a character," but I think that the student/teacher relationship aspect made him a more interesting character than he already was. He does seem to have "grown up" a bit.

I enjoyed the new nana-kumi more than I thought I would. I also liked the way that they interacted with the plot. Particularly on the train, when Kurt says "oh well, I guess Rean is right," Yuuna is there to say "that's bullshit" and they end up being involved in Rean and co's encounter with "the society." Yuuna is a fun character and it'll be interesting to see her take a role in the rest of the series.

The questionable:

First of all, a few pages back I referred reviews that complained the game fell into singular patterns and a lack of plot movement. There were disagreements with what I posted, but I decided to save a response to this post, because I too hold similar feelings about the game and the series. First of all, "tests" are not plot movement. "Tests" are useless. We don't need the society to test its "magic." It's magic. We'll believe it works when it comes into play. The only thing the tests serve, is to set up meaningless conflict between the protagonists and the villains. In SC this was largely bullshit, but the game still came together in the end and delivered. These chapters are less forgivable when you have something like Sen III. It's not really apparent that the major conflict of the first three chapters will lead anywhere at all. They certainly don't set up the final chapter of the game. Maybe they will make more sense in Sen IV. Or Sen V. This is Falcom's weakpoint. Falcom spends games setting up all the pieces, hinting at future developments, and showing off said game pieces that will be put into play. Sometimes this works brilliantly. But not all of the staging is justified. Sometimes it's just a lot of posturing and Falcom doesn't really have a need for things to happen between A and C.

I was bracing myself for a title that didn't really move the plot forward or answer the characters' questions prior to Sen IV. I was enjoying the set up with Calvard's special units, the characters realizing that they were largely information gathering, only to have them be a clever scapegoat to justify a move towards war. And then the plot gushed out of the mouths of Rose and Thomas - only to make a sharp left turn. Suddenly the actions of the characters are playing into some prophecy that brings about some sort of "dawn" that signifies the end of the world. And the society is taking part. What happened to the 幻焔計画? I thought that Osborne had "taken" it from the society? Suddenly the society is aiding the black workshop - and the members of the society don't seem to know why. It's "the will of the master." Later on Campanella reveals that the master is pursuing the "dawn" plan in place of the phantom blaze plan. It looks like the series might be dropping what it's been foreshadowing for several games now, even in Sen III itself. This is where the interactions with the society and the story make even less sense. What happened in Sen III? Who can say for sure. The society appeared to be "testing" of of Eidos' treasures, but it doesn't look like it's either of the empire's ones. Then there's Osborne's motives. What? Maybe it's a lapse in my Japanese comprehension, but what he said didn't seem to make any sense to me. He wants to fill the world with conflict in order to elevate humanity, what?

PRESENTATION

At a first glance the graphics appear to have made a major improvement. I've mentioned in this thread before that the character models, at least at a glance, appear to be one of the better transitions of anime to 3D, and often I found myself impressed by how great the game's cities looked. Not only do s-crafts look great, there are dozens of them. But outside of battle, combat scenes don't really work. The bigger ones sometimes look something akin to PS1 era Final Fantasy combat on a large scale. They were actually much more capable when they were relying on sprites. While cities look great, fields sometimes look like they were lifted from a previous incarnation intended as another PS3/Vita title. Then there are the female characters. Falcom may have awkward animations, but they made damn sure to have Sara's boobs move as she walks or runs. It's ridiculous - the 3D rendering equivalent of clown paint that is ever present during the cutscenes Falcom expects us to take seriously. Then there's the matter of spectacle. This game has its own 煌魔城, but instead of a grand introduction like Sen II, Sen III includes what is essentially a flash of light and then it just appears. Having just watched Sen II, it feels like the presentation is actually on a downward trajectory. I was left wondering if Falcom would be able to portray the phantom blaze plan that I expected to make an appearance in Sen IV. Now it doesn't appear that it will, so I guess that's not really relevant? Maybe a war with Calvard and more black smoke flying all over the place?

Then there's a matter of the music. There has been a noticeable drop in quality. Despite the fact that the games themselves aren't incredible, the music of Sen I & II is. Sen III? Not so much. Cheap trick plays over and over again, when it's probably one of the weakest tracks in the series. The name seems to suggest it was intended for the mercenaries, but it's used for everything. I found it grating. Then there was the track that plays around the black grail, like when the Courageous blows up. It's just not good. I know it's supposed to evoke "chaos," but it's just not good. Better music would go a long way in selling the scenes that the character animation wasn't able to.

GAMEPLAY

I don't want to go into depth about the gameplay, but I will say that I largely enjoyed it and considered it to be the best in the series until the end. Then it became apparent that either the enemy was too powerful or you were. I was breaking enemies and absolutely destroying them on hard mode, before most of them really got a chance to move. There were some exceptions to this, but I found the final boss to be one of the easier battles in the game. It's probably just a balancing issue. Overall I think it was good, however.

Having completed Sen I & II I wasn't exactly inspired, but I didn't feel as if I couldn't expect great things from the series' future. Now I'm not so sure.

Edit: Regarding LGBT characters - Michel does seem like an intentional attempt at LGBT inclusion, Angelica feels like she's there to make comments about female characters and serve as a joke.
 

preta

Member
A lot of stuff

Ouroboros hasn't forgotten about the Phantasmal Blaze Plan - the reason they're helping Osborne and the Black Workshop with the Great Twilight Plan is because the conditions it would bring about would make it possible (or maybe just easier? I forget) for them to complete the Phantasmal Blaze Plan.
 

PK Gaming

Member
I don't even think Angelica is gay, pretty sure several characters have alluded to a George-Angelica pairing. She's just constantly stuck in a "rebel without a cause"-phase and aggressively hitting on females is part of that. She's a pretender.

No, you're completely off base.

There was a period in Angelica's life where she rebelled against her father sure, but that didn't mean her attraction towards women were false or temporary. Cold Steel 1/2 went through great lengths to convey this without having her outright say "hello yes I'm a gay". Other characters constantly reference this on multiple occasions. Angelica herself reiterates this throughout CS1/2... Even her design and penchant for motorbikes scream gay.

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Those moments weren't fake. Those feelings weren't a phase, and to imply that they were is just so unbelievable cynical. And "several characters alluding to a George/Angelica relationship" amount to pretty much just 2 (Crow and Towa). And the latter just says that she thinks George has a crush on Angie. That's it. There are no instances of her ever showing attraction to George (or pretty much any male character for that matter) or heavy shipteasing moments between the 2. Crow's conversation with Rean is pretty much your only leg to have to stand on and even that doesn't amount to anything. Even CS3 keeps it up too, with her acting like a womanizer long after settling things with her father
to the point where she says Shirley's her type.

And poor Randy. They put him in a Sen game and behold! He turned boring, like the rest of the cast. Writing in these games really went down the shitter after the Crossbell arc.

Or maybe Randy's still great and you're holding him and Sen III to the impossible ideal that is "being like the Crossbell games." Not to downplay how (supposedly) good they are, but they're nowhere near as sancrosanct as its fanboys like to make it out to be, and I'm positive an english translation (official or otherwise) will make that clear to everyone.
 

Loz246789

Member
If you believe every time a character ships a pairing, I'm pretty certain half the main cast would *actually* be queer. (If someone wants to argue this though, I'm not going to stop them)

I actually wouldn't rule out Angelica being a little bi with a preference for women, but the evidence against it FAR exceeds the evidence for it. She has a very... het-yay? Homosexual life partners? generally very close due to both being into mechanical stuff? relationship with George, I think she even describes his handiwork as beautiful at one point if you talk to her. But for every scene like that with him, there's an entire female character who Angelica has attempted to seduce. I honestly think George is just a get out of jail free card in case people didn't like Angelica's gayness, that probably won't end up being used. If they REALLY wanted to make Angelica bi, she would have had more ship tease with Rean. And if they wanted to make her "straight", they would have done something whilst she was still in highschool, aka CS1/2, to go along with the whole schoolgirl lesbian friendship thing that's popular in Japanese culture for some reason.
 
No, you're completely off base.

There was a period in Angelica's life where she rebelled against her father sure, but that didn't mean her attraction towards women were false or temporary. Cold Steel 1/2 went through great lengths to convey this without having her outright say "hello yes I'm a gay". Other characters constantly reference this on multiple occasions. Angelica herself reiterates this throughout CS1/2... Even her design and penchant for motorbikes scream gay.

Those moments weren't fake. Those feelings weren't a phase, and to imply that they were is just so unbelievable cynical. And "several characters alluding to a George/Angelica relationship" amount to pretty much just 2 (Crow and Towa). And the latter just says that she thinks George has a crush on Angie. That's it. There are no instances of her ever showing attraction to George (or pretty much any male character for that matter) or heavy shipteasing moments between the 2. Crow's conversation with Rean is pretty much your only leg to have to stand on and even that doesn't amount to anything. Even CS3 keeps it up too, with her acting like a womanizer long after settling things with her father
to the point where she says Shirley's her type.

Angelica just comes off as one big trope to me. Falcom could have just as easily, you know, not included the other two members of original Class Seven ship them for some reason. Don't be surprised if the they end up married in Blabla no Kiseki 12, typical set-up for this shit
(as long as they don't kill off George in Sen IV)
. But sure, let her be lesbian, bi or whatever, not a very interesting point of discussion to begin with.
Or maybe Randy's still great and you're holding him and Sen III to the impossible ideal that is "being like the Crossbell games." Not to downplay how (supposedly) good they are, but they're nowhere near as sancrosanct as its fanboys like to make it out to be, and I'm positive an english translation (official or otherwise) will make that clear to everyone.

What are you even going on about. They put Randy in a somewhat prominent position (using a rather poor story justification) and proceed to do absolutely nothing with the character except making him look fucking homesick all the time. Now that's the Randy I know lol. And yeah, to me the Sen games are the poorest the Kiseki series has ever been since FC, not exactly the most controversial opinion I guess.
 

Neoweee

Member
How many hours are you all taking to beat the game, and on what difficulties? Is Nightmare for a first-run as feasible start-to-end as it was in CS2?
 
Talking about missed things, I always got an S-rating with every evaluation, but still missed at least one quest in the final part of the game, because I didn't get the trophy for all quests. Had 437 AP at the end, I think. Missing a Fire Master Quartz too, maybe that's connected.
 

TR_

Member
How many hours are you all taking to beat the game, and on what difficulties? Is Nightmare for a first-run as feasible start-to-end as it was in CS2?

I'm playin on normal. It took me 87 hours but I started to skip past enemies from the start of chapter 3. Especially in dungeons they're really boring and battles are repetitive. Should've started on hard or nightmare instead since this game give you even more things to cheese the game.



What are you even going on about. They put Randy in a somewhat prominent position (using a rather poor story justification) and proceed to do absolutely nothing with the character except making him look fucking homesick all the time. Now that's the Randy I know lol. And yeah, to me the Sen games are the poorest the Kiseki series has ever been since FC, not exactly the most controversial opinion I guess.

I do agree that Randy is not as fun and he can be boring at times but I enjoy his serious side in some scenes. I wish that he would do more in the story too but they need to concentrate on the new casts anyways. Its not really fair to expect much from Randy this time around since he had plenty of development already in Zero and Ao.
 

Shouta

Member
Randy really sort of lucked out as a character because he was in Zero, the game with the absolute smallest cast in the series. That meant there was a lot of time they could allot to his development. In addition, he's the only other major male character in Zero/Ao. The others are secondary characters. There's Wazy but honestly, considering what he says and his actions throughout the games, I think he might actually be a woman but who knows, lol

In any case, Zero and Ao aren't perfect. Ao, in particular, has a ton of problems despite being one of the more well received games. It manages to hit all the right acceleration points in regards to the story and keeping it flowing though which is why it's so highly acclaimed.

Randy's bits in Sen III are pretty great even if he doesn't get very much screen time. We get to see how much of a bro he is while getting Rean and the cast formally introduced to the Support Section. He also balances out Rean and Towa on the teaching staff in just the right ways so it doesn't feel so stuffy all the time. His bits with the students when you talk to them is great too.

Angelica getting more ship tease with Rean is the last thing I want. I mean, it'd be kinda nice to have a character like her in the Rean-rem but I wouldn't want her specifically to be there because of her position in the story and how she interacts with everyone.
 
Ouroboros hasn't forgotten about the Phantasmal Blaze Plan - the reason they're helping Osborne and the Black Workshop with the Great Twilight Plan is because the conditions it would bring about would make it possible (or maybe just easier? I forget) for them to complete the Phantasmal Blaze Plan.

I'll have to go back to check, but I'm pretty sure Campanella says it's "幻焔計画の引き換え."
 
Both of those plans look like they are the same thing anyway.

Phantom Blaze: Use the fake Goddess treasure from Crossbell to rouse the "flame" in Erebonia -> ??? -> Profit.

Twilight: Rouse the flame -> engulf the world in war -> ??? -> Profit?

No wonder the rivalry between the Black Workshop and Ouroboros was so short-lived. The fuck was the point of 80% of this game anyway?
 

Shouta

Member
Finished. Holy shit, that was just utter insanity.

I was not expecting anything like that.
It was like a giant multi-car pile-up of schemes and situations. I was not expecting them to, at least for now, kill Angelica, Toval, Victor, Millium, and fucking Olivier. I know they'll all probably be back probably but that's one helluva way to make an endgame. If they end up making these stick, it'd just be nuts. I kinda don't want that to happen but it'd be something to see.

I honestly wasn't expecting this much movement in regards to the plot but I'm pleasantly surprised that we got it. We have basically a full idea of what the Phantasmal Blaze plan is about. We also know what Osborne was up to including the Great Twilight plan as well. What's missing is the exact reason the Ouroboros and the Gnomes/Osborne are doing all of this. The Snakes are still rather unknown but at least with Osborne, there's a hint that there's a greater purpose to this than what he said at the end of the game. Rean's discussion with the Emperor at the end of chapter 4 totally points to this. so what could be important enough that they would spread a curse like this on all of Erebonia, maybe even the entire continent. Speculation is all we got at this point though I've got some odd ideas.

New Class VII worked out really well. They had just the right mix of characters that made it work. When you combine them with the smaller, more focused Thors 2nd school mates, they basically provided everything that was good about Sen 1/2's school setting while making it lean.

The old Class VII moving on to their new roles worked out really well. Getting to see them work in their main environments really helped further strengthen the base that Sen 1/2 created for them. Having them around also made the Field Trips/special training feel more important and helped lessen the impact of the school setting since we got it for a second time. In particular, Rean being a teacher was great. It showed him failing and getting some blowback for it it served to knock him down a peg a bit without totally undermining his position as the protagonist of the story. Gaius coming back as a Dominion was siiiiiiick. We knew that he'd be involved with the church but for this to happen was wild.

Biggest complaint on the character front is that they don't really setup any specific direction for the old Class VII to grow on an individual level. We have remnants of what still needs to be handled like Alisa/Sharon, Eusis/Rufus, etc but I'd definitely like to see them grow as characters further if possible. We'll see but hopefully we get some characters in the last Sen game.

As for the next game, I think they'll be handling the aftermath of everything that happened and then probably the liberation of Crossbell. This situation will likely destabilize the Empire which makes the most sense for the Ao epilogue to occur. North Ambria seems like a potential visit as well. There's some interesting things in the Black Records in regards to what happened there and it mentions there might be something out there still in regards to what happened to the Salt incident. That could lead to getting a grasp of the bigger picture of what's going on in the world.

I really liked the gameplay additions in this but Falcom definitely needs to up the difficulty since the player has gotten so much more powerful. It was super easy on Hard, more so than any other game thus far.

Graphics were good but they definitely need to a bit of work to make the modeling a little less silly on some characters. They also could optimize it so there were frame dips. There's a few places within the game where it drops pretty significantly.
 

Thoraxes

Member
Graphics were good but they definitely need to a bit of work to make the modeling a little less silly on some characters. They also could optimize it so there were frame dips. There's a few places within the game where it drops pretty significantly.
Are you on a standard PS4 or a Pro? I'm still slowly working my way through, but haven't seen anything yet like that around early Ch. 2.
 
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