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[zoku88]

Ah, I found it: http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm

By Judith Thomson.

This argument assumes that the fetus is a person by the point of conception but still argues for abortion regardless. I believe that Defiled's argument would be pretty much the same as this.

 

[Vermillion]

I'd be far happier in a world where unwanted children don't exist.

Proposing limits on abortion due to race/sex/sexuality/disease/whatever is proposing unwanted children be forced upon people.

So would their parents

But I get you, and I agree.

 

[Deified Data]

So for you it's not a matter of whether its a "child" or "foetus", "alive" or not, but whether or not it's still in the womb irregardless of everything else. It's not so much as extreme as just a pointlessly stupid opinion - it makes no sense by any measurement of rationale or ethics. I wouldn't even categorise it as a Pro-Choice position, it's just so out there lol

I get that a lot.

I consider it the ultimate pro-choice opinion. I recognize that both the mother and the fetus should have rights. However, I believe that when these rights are in opposition, the rights of the intelligent, experienced adult should take precedence.

 

[Omegasquash]

So for you it's not a matter of whether its a "child" or "foetus", "alive" or not, but whether or not it's still in the womb irregardless of everything else. It's not so much as extreme as just a pointlessly stupid opinion - it makes no sense by any measurement of rationale or ethics. I wouldn't even categorise it as a Pro-Choice position, it's just so out there lol

Not...a....word!

Anyway, that's why I brought up fetal viability earlier. But I'm about to leave work anyway, and am pretty sure I could ballpark the answer.

 

[Gaborn]

I get that a lot.

I consider it the ultimate pro-choice opinion. I recognize that both the mother and the fetus should have rights. However, I believe that when these rights are in opposition, the rights of the intelligent, experienced adult should take precedence.

That's not what you're really advocating though. There is a difference between someone having the right to their own body, and declaring that something that would be viable outside of their body can be killed while in it.

 

[Deified Data]

That's not what you're really advocating though. There is a difference between someone having the right to their own body, and declaring that something that would be viable outside of their body can be killed while in it.

I know what I advocate, thank you.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Not...a....word!

Anyway, that's why I brought up fetal viability earlier. But I'm about to leave work anyway, and am pretty sure I could ballpark the answer.

Yeah, I do that a lot..get caught in thinking of two similar words and then unknowingly mash them up together into one word when writing.

 

[Devolution]

No restrictions based on reasons.

Who gets to decide what reasons are acceptable? And why must it go beyond the idea of simply not wanting it? If she doesn't want it, it needs to go.

 

[frankie_baby]

If you look at it from the perspective of terminating infants, perhaps. I look at it through the lens of preserving the rights of women.

Thankfully women dont have the right to murder fully formed baby human beings

 

[speculawyer]

how many people do you think our planet can support? We are at 7billion (or more). What do you think is going to happen when more and more of those people start becoming middle class in modernized countries and wanting all we have here in the US? There simply isnt enough resources in the world to continue the way we are heading.

The honest truth is that will never happen. There simply are not enough resources for everyone to live like we do in the USA right now. We like to fool ourselves with terms like "the developing world" as if someday families all around the world will all have a suburban house & two cars eventually. That will never ever happen. It is a mathematical impossibility with current technology & resources.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

The honest truth is that will never happen. There simply are not enough resources for everyone to live like we do in the USA right now. We like to fool ourselves with terms like "the developing world" as if someday families all around the world will all have a suburban house & two cars eventually. That will never ever happen. It is a mathematical impossibility with current technology & resources.

Yep.

Either we will never reach equality, or we will have to reduce the global population to a level where everyone can live the middle-class lifestyle.

Of these two options, I believe the former is far more likely to happen.

 

[JGS]

What would be great is if you had unlimited abortion rights up to the first two trimesters and then nobody execise them because they value life that much.

Oh wait, we have that first part down to a science already...

 

[7Th]

A woman's body isn't a "baby creating machine" that exists for the propagation of diversity.

 

[Rambo-]

How about the women not getting pregnant in the first place, this is something both pro choice and pro lifers can agree on. There would be no controversy if the women who didn't want children just had surgery so she wouldn't get pregnant, use contraception, or used something. I'm talking about people who can afford these things but choose not to use them and then complain about unwanted pregnancy.

 

[Kalnos]

How about the women not getting pregnant in the first place, this is something both pro choice and pro lifers can agree on.

Uh... they want a child, they just don't want it to have down syndrome.

 

[Devolution]

How about the women not getting pregnant in the first place, this is something both pro choice and pro lifers can agree on. There would be no controversy if the women who didn't want children just had surgery so she wouldn't get pregnant, use contraception, or used something. I'm talking about people who can afford these things but choose not to use them and then complain about unwanted pregnancy.

That's pretty simplistic, how old are you.

 

[Deified Data]

Yep.

Either we will never reach equality, or we will have to reduce the global population to a level where everyone can live the middle-class lifestyle.

Of these two options, I believe the former is far more likely to happen.

Regrettably, I doubt reducing the global population would promote equality.

How about the women not getting pregnant in the first place, this is something both pro choice and pro lifers can agree on. There would be no controversy if the women who didn't want children just had surgery so she wouldn't get pregnant, use contraception, or used something. I'm talking about people who can afford these things but choose not to use them and then complain about unwanted pregnancy.

"Not getting pregnant" isn't always an option.

 

[7Th]

How about the women not getting pregnant in the first place, this is something both pro choice and pro lifers can agree on. There would be no controversy if the women who didn't want children just had surgery so she wouldn't get pregnant, use contraception, or used something. I'm talking about people who can afford these things but choose not to use them and then complain about unwanted pregnancy.

What if the woman wanted to get pregnant and finds out her baby will be born with a particularly painful or limiting impairment? You're simplifying this way too much.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

I get that a lot.

I consider it the ultimate pro-choice opinion. I recognize that both the mother and the fetus should have rights. However, I believe that when these rights are in opposition, the rights of the intelligent, experienced adult should take precedence.

What rights of the foetus do you recognise? By that, are you implying there are somethings the mother has no right on in terms of the foetus' development?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

How about the women not getting pregnant in the first place, this is something both pro choice and pro lifers can agree on. There would be no controversy if the women who didn't want children just had surgery so she wouldn't get pregnant, use contraception, or used something. I'm talking about people who can afford these things but choose not to use them and then complain about unwanted pregnancy.

This I agree with.
The best way to not end up with an unwanted pregnancy in the first place is to not get pregnant in the first place.

But for that to happen, we need a lot more support from the government in the form of cheap/free contraception for everyone, free vasectomies/tube tyings, and so on.

EDIT: Of course, pregnancies can still occur and that's why we have abortions.

 

[Gaborn]

The honest truth is that will never happen. There simply are not enough resources for everyone to live like we do in the USA right now. We like to fool ourselves with terms like "the developing world" as if someday families all around the world will all have a suburban house & two cars eventually. That will never ever happen. It is a mathematical impossibility with current technology & resources.

Malthusians - Still making claims, still wrong.

 

[Devolution]

This I agree with.
The best way to not end up with an unwanted pregnancy in the first place is to not get pregnant in the first place.

But for that to happen, we need a lot more support from the government in the form of cheap/free contraception for everyone, free vasectomies/tube tyings, and so on.

Not all abortions involve "whoops got knocked up" you know.

 

[Mudkips]

the semen, or the unfertilized egg for that matter, has the exact same genetic makeup of the man (or female,)

Not it doesn't. It has exactly half.

I agree that conception is one of the few points that are objective lines of demarcation (others being when it's viable outside the womb and when it's born). You can achieve the "I don't want to be pregnant" or "I don't want a baby" goal without killing using those points.

But to say something being genetically distinct means it's a new life and deserves different treatment is, as you put it, "scientifically ... simply unsound".

Are identical twins the same organism? Can one twin kill the other because they're not separate entities?

Would a cloned fetus growing inside you be the same organism as you? Would "conception" of a clone still mark that line where you can't kill it? By what basis? It "has the exact same genetic makeup" as the host.

Would subsuming a twin in utero be a crime?

 

[mr2xxx]

I'm pretty much for no restrictions. It is a private matter.


But one area that freaks me out a little is sex selection . . . if people abort girls in preference to boys, that is going to fuck up society when you end up with lots of men that can't get laid. Crime & violence go up.

Is there any data to back this up? I'm just curious. I'm assuming looking at China and the gender imbalance there might give us a indication of the issues but I haven't read much about it.

 

[frankie_baby]

How about the women not getting pregnant in the first place, this is something both pro choice and pro lifers can agree on. There would be no controversy if the women who didn't want children just had surgery so she wouldn't get pregnant, use contraception, or used something. I'm talking about people who can afford these things but choose not to use them and then complain about unwanted pregnancy.

In the uk all birth control is free, it still amazes me there is more than a minimal amount of unwanted pregnancies here

 

[Invisible_Insane]

How do you feel about a mother killing her week old child

I can't believe you've done this.

 

[Salmonax]

That's an allocation of resources problem and not really a population problem.

There is more than enough of almost anything for anyone.

I think Sam Kinison made a similar argument.

 

[Gaborn]

Is there any data to back this up? I'm just curious. I'm assuming looking at China and the gender imbalance there might give us a indication of the issues but I haven't read much about it.

The opposite is what the data shows. Look at the US with it's constantly increasing population, crime and especially violent crime is at an all time LOW.

 

[Rambo-]

That's pretty simplistic, how old are you.

I'm 19.

I'm not talking about people who DO want children. I'm simply talking about people who don't want children and complain when they get pregnant because they didn't take the necessary steps to ensure they weren't going to get pregnant.

 

[dorkimoe]

In general? Why?

Limited resources. Way to many people. We're just overpopulating this planet. We can't keep up like this

 

[mt1200]

The less people being born, the better.

This.

 

[zoku88]

I think Sam Kinison made a similar argument.

I'm not on the up and up about people who make these types of arguments. Who is this?

 

[Devolution]

I'm 19.

I'm not talking about people who DO want children. I'm simply talking about people who don't want children and complain when they get pregnant because they didn't take the necessary steps to ensure they weren't going to get pregnant.

Sometimes people fuck up and get pregnant even when they've been careful not to. It happens. Should they be denied the opportunity because of that one time they weren't careful since you're also throwing them into the same boat as people who keep fucking irresponsibly.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I'm not on the up and up about people who make these types of arguments. Who is this?

A minister who died far too young.

 

[frankie_baby]

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

 

[Deified Data]

I'm 19.

I'm not talking about people who DO want children. I'm simply talking about people who don't want children and complain when they get pregnant because they didn't take the necessary steps to ensure they weren't going to get pregnant.

Rape babies. Your move.

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

Why would it?

 

[levious]

I'm 19.

I'm not talking about people who DO want children. I'm simply talking about people who don't want children and complain when they get pregnant because they didn't take the necessary steps to ensure they weren't going to get pregnant.

we conceived our first child while she was on the pill.

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

abortions are anything but easy.

 

[zoku88]

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

Weren't abortions illegal in a lot of places in America for some time?

Didn't that turn out not so well?

 

[Devolution]

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

No. What a dumb question.

 

[Kalnos]

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

They would just have abortions illegally and it would be much more dangerous. Nothing would change.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

I wonder if religion was banned would it lead to people being a lot more logical when it comes to debate.






This is a fun game.

 

[mr2xxx]

The opposite is what the data shows. Look at the US with it's constantly increasing population, crime and especially violent crime is at an all time LOW.

Are you saying there is gender imbalance in America?

Regarding China just read something on MSNBC:

"According to their analysis, low-status young adult men with little chance of forming families of their own are "much more prone to attempt to improve their situation through violent and criminal behavior in a strategy of coalitional aggression." The growing crime rate in China which is being linked to China's massive "floating" or transient population, some 80 million of which are low-status males, seems to add weight to their observation."

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

I think it would lead to a lot more underprivileged children born to poor single-mothers/couples, and a lot more back-alley abortions.

 

[luxarific]

My body is not the property of the state. Ever.

 

[frankie_baby]

we conceived our first child while she was on the pill.





abortions are anything but easy.

Easy to arrange but horrendus to go through, i've known several girls who've attempted suicide because of them

 

[Count Dookkake]

Easy to arrange but horrendus to go through, i've known several girls who've attempted suicide because of them

I've known several girls who didn't attempt sucide afte having an abortion and then went on to lead successful lives.

I also knew a woman who had a child, but ended up killing herself.


Anecdotes, how do they work?

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

I wonder if abortions were made a lot harder to have (or even banned) would it lead to women being a lot more responsible when it comes to birth control?

Abortion rates are almost the same in countries where it is legal and countries where it's banned.

 

[luxarific]

Weren't abortions illegal in a lot of places in America for some time?

Didn't that turn out not so well?

Yes. People actually want to go back to this shit. Women on their knees, dead.

 

[Rambo-]

Sometimes people fuck up and get pregnant even when they've been careful not to. It happens. Should they be denied the opportunity because of that one time they weren't careful since you're also throwing them into the same boat as people who keep fucking irresponsibly.

I should have been more specific. I'm not referring to people who are careful and by accident get pregnant. I'm referring to people who knowingly are reckless and still choose to have an abortion. I'm not saying they shouldn't have the option. I'm pro choice. People should have the right to do what they want. All I'm trying to say is that people these days seem to forget how precious life is and many people use abortions as sort of birth control.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/11/21/or29.pdf

Also on topic, i don't think people should abort because they don't like the race of their baby, you could say this is Nazi like. What's stopping a family from aborting all their children until they are the hair color, eye color and skin color of their choosing? Is it even possible to find these things out before a baby us born, like eye color, hair color, etc?

 

[frankie_baby]

I've known several girls who didn't attempt sucide afte having an abortion and then went on to lead successful lives.

I also knew a woman who had a child, but ended up killing herself.


Anecdotes, how do they work?

Everyone has their own and it helps shape their view on things