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[Hippo_PRIME]

The right to bear arms is a right guaranteed under the Constitution.

Do you want people to be able to buy guns without a background check and ID?

I don't.

First, this is a major misdirection from showing an ID to vote.

Second, you're ignoring the determination made over and over again by the courts that this law is a not so sneaky way to disenfranchise the minorities, the poor, and generally anyone who would generally not vote Republican.

It's not that the courts are striking down the need to verify identity to vote, but striking down requirements that place an undue burden on voters' right to vote.

 

[Daedardus]

Registration for voting is done with your state government. You're assigned a polling place (usually a school, library, or some other locally accessible public building) based on your current address. You go there on voting day, give your name and they check you off your list.

People have to go to the Department of Motor Vehicles to get a government ID. These are usually driver's licenses, but you can get non driving ones if you can't drive but still want to be able to buy alcohol, go to clubs, etc.

So if I go and tell them I'm John Smith they'll check some random name off the list? Or do I have to tell them my adress too?

And how is it checked that I'm a legal US citizen? By paper birth certificate?

I'm just confused because I live in a country with one of the world's most advanced civil registry and we carry electronic ID cards all the time on us. Sounds very scary privacy wise, because the government probably knows everything of me, but it's actually very efficient and secure when you have to deal with various services such as health care, social welfare and scholarships.

 

[Zoe]

This is not the case currently. They check your Drivers License when you show up to vote now in Texas.

I was speaking generally to this:

And not all people have a common ID?

 

[aeolist]

committing voter fraud by having people vote twice or impersonate other voters is by far the least efficient and highest risk method conceivable

there's a reason it basically doesn't happen

 

[commedieu]

Voter fraud is like .002%

Right?

 

[StoOgE]

So if I go and tell them I'm John Smith they'll check some random name off the list? Or do I have to tell them my adress too?

And how is it checked that I'm a legal US citizen? By paper birth certificate?

I'm just confused because I live in a country with one of the world's most advanced civil registry and we carry electronic ID cards all the time on us. Sounds very scary privacy wise, because the government probably knows everything of me, but it's actually very efficient and secure when you have to deal with various services such as health care, social welfare and scholarships.

If there is a John Smith registered at that polling location, you might get away with it. And if you are wrong you will go to jail. And you better hope you beat the real John Smith to the polling place or you will go to jail. And if you get away with all of this, you will have effectively netted 1 vote at the risk of jail time for the candidate of your choice. And you would have to steal his voter registration card that is mailed to his home address.

Which is why it doesn't actually happen.

If you want to actually commit voter fraud you would have a couple of people certifying ballots miscount them and misreport the results and you could net thousands of votes towards the candidate of your choice in one fail swoop and the likelihood of getting caught is far lower.

 

[TopDreg]

Whoa. This ruling is HUGE. What a stupid law it was, and furthermore, we now have a contemporary legal precedent suggesting that Republicans are racist.

Edit: It's not a Supreme Court ruling, still, this gives me hope. And it's concerning Texas, no less. Further hope for a blue state.

 

[Zoe]

So if I go and tell them I'm John Smith they'll check some random name off the list? Or do I have to tell them my adress too?

And how is it checked that I'm a legal US citizen? By paper birth certificate?

I'm just confused because I live in a country with one of the world's most advanced civil registry and we carry electronic ID cards all the time on us. Sounds very scary privacy wise, because the government probably knows everything of me, but it's actually very efficient and secure when you have to deal with various services such as health care, social welfare and scholarships.

Before this law came about, you had to either produce your voter's registration card (which gets mailed to you each year and has your polling data and unique ID but no picture) or a valid ID. Those would get checked against the rolls.

 

[StoOgE]

From voterfraud.com (a non partisan group fighting against a similar law in Wisconsin)

Given that individual voter fraud does not happen you have to ask yourself why you would want to prevent something that does not occur at an expense of millions of dollars.

The answer is in the demographic breakdown of those people who would be unable to vote who are currently allowed to vote.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

My feeling on this is that if you don't need to show ID to vote than you shouldn't need to show ID to:

-Go to E3
-Fly on a plane
-Visit the RNC convention
-Visit the DNC convention
-Check out the White House lawn from inside the fence
-Buy alcohol

That said, I'm okay with not requiring ID to vote if we can ensure no one can vote twice and dead people aren't allowed to vote.

Voter ID laws are explicitly designed as poll taxes to keep minorities and young people from voting. Voter fraud was already almost nonexistent (except for Flordia in 2000) before these laws.

 

[Daedardus]

You get a birth certificate and social security administration registration at birth. The former is issues by the county you are born in, and the latter by the federal SS administration which has a unique number that identifies you.

When you register to vote you register with the county you live in, which will verify that you are an eligable voter in their county using your SSN or state ID (if you have one) and verify it against information the county has in your records about your identity.

You show up the the place you are registered to vote and cast your vote and they check your name off the list of registered voters at that polling place. So to illegally vote you would need to 1) register people who are not registered to vote. 2) Show up to the polling place and vote on their behalf. Given that there will be north of 100,000,000 votes cast in this election this is a horribly inefficient way to commit fraud and there are 31 verified cases of voter fraud out of 1,000,000,000 votes reviewed in a case study from 2 years ago. It does not happen.

There is no requirement in the US to have a national ID card, and lots of poor people and minorities lack photo identification, especially elderly voters who no longer drive or never have. Like my grandmother.

This is not about voter fraud, this is about the GOP trying to prevent people voting because the demographic groups least likely to have the requirements to vote are heavily Democratic voters.

Edit: Citation for 31 credible cases over voter fraud https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...le-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/

I understand. I also don't think the system is bad as it's now, it's just very different from what I'm used to. And if these laws are abused I'm glad to see them go. I do wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient to issue mandatory ID cards, they don't need to be tied to a gigantic database but it might help in a lot of situations where identification is needed.

 

[Stinkles]

These rules exist to disenfranchise voters for the democratic party.

I don't need to explain the makeup of the specific demographics involved. But they are race and income based.

• Anyone who denies this is a liar and should be roundly ignored.
• Anyone who thinks illegal immigrants are relaxed enough to vote illegally is dumb.
• Anyone who thinks voting is rigged at a per person level, is missing the irony of this story.

Voter ID laws ARE vote rigging. Via suppression.


The sooner you can vote online, the sooner gerrymandering will weaken and die.

And that's ignoring the fundamental CAUSES of the matter of national shame that is reflected in the red and black pie chart above.

 

[StoOgE]

I understand. I also don't think the system is bad as it's now, it's just very different from what I'm used to. And if these laws are abused I'm glad to see them go. I do wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient to issue mandatory ID cards, they don't need to be tied to a gigantic database but it might help in a lot of situations where identification is needed.

There will never be a national ID card in the United States. At least not in my lifetime. The US is very different in that state governments are in charge of lots of things

 

[Nephtes]

First, this is a major misdirection from showing an ID to vote.

Second, you're ignoring the determination made over and over again by the courts that this law is a not so sneaky way to disenfranchise the minorities, the poor, and generally anyone who would generally not vote Republican.

It's not that the courts are striking down the need to verify identity to vote, but striking down requirements that place an undue burden on voters' right to vote.

It was a legit counterpoint to the guy's only argument which was that the right to vote is guaranteed by the Constitution, not a misdirection.

I don't want to disenfranchise minorities. Just make sure no one that shouldn't be voting isn't voting... And no one should vote twice.

If that takes a national ID given to every legal citizen... So be it. I'd support that.

 

[Zoe]

I do wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient to issue mandatory ID cards, they don't need to be tied to a gigantic database but it might help in a lot of situations where identification is needed.

The problem is how do you issue and distribute them to people who don't already have valid ID?

 

[StoOgE]

It was a legit counterpoint to the guy's only argument which was that the right to vote is guaranteed by the Constitution, not a misdirection.

I don't want to disenfranchise minorities. Just make sure no one that shouldn't be voting shouldn't vote... And shouldn't vote twice.

If that takes a national ID given to every legal citizen... So be it. I'd support that.

The system we have now effectively prevents this from happening already.

Why do you want to spend millions and disenfranchise millions of minority voters to stop 31 out of 1,000,000,000 cases of individual voter fraud?

 

[ConfusingJazz]

It was a legit counterpoint to the guy's only argument which was that the right to vote is guaranteed by the Constitution, not a misdirection.

I don't want to disenfranchise minorities. Just make sure no one that shouldn't be voting isn't voting... And no one should vote twice.

If that takes a national ID given to every legal citizen... So be it. I'd support that.

People don't vote twice. It's not a problem that exists. In al studies, there have been 31 cases of it. 31 out of 1,000,000,000.

So you support creating a giant, unnecessary bureaucracy to solve a problem that doesn't exist? Do you want to pay for that?

Systemic voting fraud does happen, mostly in good ol boy counties. And where does the illegal activity take place? At the county level, where they count the votes, not at the polling location.

 

[hawk2025]

It was a legit counterpoint to the guy's only argument which was that the right to vote is guaranteed by the Constitution, not a misdirection.

I don't want to disenfranchise minorities. Just make sure no one that shouldn't be voting isn't voting... And no one should vote twice.

If that takes a national ID given to every legal citizen... So be it. I'd support that.

Alright, then, let's use your very same kind of logic and also flip it to something else, because why not.

If it takes banning any and all guns, and going into every home and confiscating what's left, so that people no longer shoot each other... So be it. I'd support that.

 

[Nephtes]

The system we have now effectively prevents this from happening already.

Why do you want to spend millions and disenfranchise millions of minority voters to stop 31 out of 1,000,000,000 cases of individual voter fraud?

I literally just said I don't want to disenfranchise millions of minority voters.
There are plenty of other benefits to a national ID card that would be worth the expenditure... Especially of the electronic format for purposes of keeping Electronic Health information in one singular repository accessible by all doctors rather than compartmentalized in every single doctor's office you visit.

 

[NimbusD]

Many states implement ID laws to disenfranchise groups of people. I'm all for having a ID designated for voting, provided it's free for all.

Not just free for all, but completely not a burden to obtain. As in, any shipping costs are covered, you don't have to travel anywhere, etc.

But also then there would have to be a grace period for if you show up and don't have that special ID. Because what, you show up and don't have the special thing you need then your voice in democracy doesn't matter?

The point is that it does, it doesn't become negated because you didn't plan properly, or don't have access to the things that are 'required', it just exists and can't be taken away, so there has to be crazy accommodations to make sure that happens.

 

[Talon]

My feeling on this is that if you don't need to show ID to vote than you shouldn't need to show ID to:

-Go to E3
-Fly on a plane
-Visit the RNC convention
-Visit the DNC convention
-Check out the White House lawn from inside the fence
-Buy alcohol

That said, I'm okay with not requiring ID to vote if we can ensure no one can vote twice and dead people aren't allowed to vote.

Which of those are citizen rights?

If you don't have a car or the time to get away from work or the inability to afford $40 for an ID, that's a huge blocker. Hell, what if you're like my grandparents and can't speak english? They're completely dependent on my uncles to get things done.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The right to bear arms is a right guaranteed under the Constitution.

Do you want people to be able to buy guns without a background check and ID?

I don't.

We require such things because lacking them is proven to create serious risks. You need IDs to do certain things because they ARE risky and dangerous, not because "what if tho"

 

[hawk2025]

I literally just said I don't want to disenfranchise millions of minority voters.
There are plenty of other benefits to a national ID card that would be worth the expenditure... Especially of the electronic format for purposes of keeping Electronic Health information in one singular repository accessible by all doctors rather than compartmentalized in every single doctor's office you visit.

Unfortunately, you don't get to pick the side effects of policies and brush them off.

 

[StoOgE]

I literally just said I don't want to disenfranchise millions of minority voters.
There are plenty of other benefits to a national ID card that would be worth the expenditure... Especially of the electronic format for purposes of keeping Electronic Health information in one singular repository accessible by all doctors rather than compartmentalized in every single doctor's office you visit.

1) Claim you don't want to disenfranchise millions of minority voters
2) Say policy proposals that are thinly veiled attempts to do that as "common sense"

 

[Daedardus]

There will never be a national ID card in the United States. At least not in my lifetime. The US is very different in that state governments are in charge of lots of things

I live in a federation too, doesn't stop a nation wide identification system.

The problem is how do you issue and distribute them to people who don't already have valid ID?

The same way voters registration works, perhaps? It might be a problem for a huge part of society now, but once you start issuing at birth it would be a lot easier to handle.

 

[VistraNorrez]

That said, I'm okay with not requiring ID to vote if we can ensure no one can vote twice and dead people aren't allowed to vote.

I don't know what other states do, but in NJ I register so they have me in the system. When I go to vote, at my designated location, they find me on a list with my signature. There is also this piece of paper they tear in 2. I have to sign this. It's used to verify my vote at the booth. There is literally no way I could vote twice or be dead and vote.

I don't have to show any identification except my signature.

 

[StoOgE]

The same way voters registration works, perhaps? It might be a problem for a huge part of society now, but once you start issuing at birth it would be a lot easier to handle.

We voting with baby photos now?

 

[Zoe]

The same way voters registration works, perhaps? It might be a problem for a huge part of society now, but once you start issuing at birth it would be a lot easier to handle.

Voter registration hardly requires any proof of who you are, and you would need a photo for any kind of meaningful ID.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

1) Claim you don't want to disenfranchise millions of minority voters
2) Say policy proposals that are thinly veiled attempts to do that as "common sense"

3) Completely ignore the long, uncomplicated history of voting without an ID

 

[aeolist]

it's telling that the only arguments that ever happen around this issue involve unrealistic flights of fancy or extreme ignorance

that's discounting the thinly veiled racism

 

[Nephtes]

1) Claim you don't want to disenfranchise millions of minority voters
2) Say policy proposals that are thinly veiled attempts to do that as "common sense"

My bad, I had no idea an electronic national ID (without photo)given to every citizen would constitute minority disenfranchisement. Not my intent at all to disenfranchise anyone who is legally able to vote.
I concede, I'm the only person in here that doesn't like the concept of voter fraud and would like to find solutions to prevent it that work for everyone...
But since apparently no one else feels it's actually a problem... I'll go find other threads to talk in.

My apologies.

 

[Imperfected]

The problem with democracy in America is clearly that people want to vote too much. Yes, that is the issue.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

My bad, I had no idea an electronic national ID (without photo)given to every citizen would constitute minority disenfranchisement. Not my intent at all to disenfranchise anyone who is legally able to vote.
I concede, I'm the only person in here that doesn't like the concept of voter fraud and would like to find solutions to prevent it that work for everyone...
But since apparently no one else feels it's actually a problem... I'll go find other threads to talk in.

My apologies.

No, you don't understand how voter fraud works, otherwise you would know that this law literally does nothing to stop it.

 

[Hippo_PRIME]

it's telling that the only arguments that ever happen around this issue involve unrealistic flights of fancy or extreme ignorance

that's discounting the thinly veiled racism

This is always the problem I have when trying to discuss voter ID laws with proponents of them. When a person cannot even acknowledge that such policies are racist in practice, I feel like what they're really saying is, "And what's the problem?"

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

My bad, I had no idea an electronic national ID (without photo)given to every citizen would constitute minority disenfranchisement. Not my intent at all to disenfranchise anyone who is legally able to vote.
I concede, I'm the only person in here that doesn't like the concept of voter fraud and would like to find solutions to prevent it that work for everyone...
But since apparently no one else feels it's actually a problem... I'll go find other threads to talk in.

My apologies.

You would like to find solutions to extremely small problems that generate larger problems?

 

[hawk2025]

My bad, I had no idea an electronic national ID (without photo)given to every citizen would constitute minority disenfranchisement. Not my intent at all to disenfranchise anyone who is legally able to vote.
I concede, I'm the only person in here that doesn't like the concept of voter fraud and would like to find solutions to prevent it that work for everyone...
But since apparently no one else feels it's actually a problem... I'll go find other threads to talk in.

My apologies.

Ew.

You are not even trying to be intellectually honest.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Texas’ losing streak continued

.

 

[Hippo_PRIME]

My bad, I had no idea an electronic national ID (without photo)given to every citizen would constitute minority disenfranchisement. Not my intent at all to disenfranchise anyone who is legally able to vote.
I concede, I'm the only person in here that doesn't like the concept of voter fraud and would like to find solutions to prevent it that work for everyone...
But since apparently no one else feels it's actually a problem... I'll go find other threads to talk in.

My apologies.

You're talking about a solution in search of a problem where there isn't one.

 

[Daedardus]

We voting with baby photos now?

I mean, my ID expires every five years just because you have to get a new picture. It's the same way it works with passports too.

The benefits of my ID are just clearly there. I went to a new doctor, he scanned my ID, saw that I got increased compensation, had to pay only 2 euros. The consultation is now in my medical file so that my usual doctor knows I had some trouble with my ear.

Last year I was brought to the hospital in an almost unconscious state. They scanned my ID, sent the bill to the right address and since they knew I had higher insurance my bill was like 1 euro. There are other benefits too, like filling in my scholarship online, looking up how many days I can still do my student job and I can easily check all the data the government has in the civil registry. I understand if you don't want it because it sure is a lot of data centralised in one place, but you can't deny that there are benefits to the system too. I feel like you are too heavily weighing in on the voter fraud part,which I don't see as a problem, but I also don't see a mandatory ID card introduced over a larger timeframe as a possible problem for minorities if done right.

 

[Stinkles]

My bad, I had no idea an electronic national ID (without photo)given to every citizen would constitute minority disenfranchisement. Not my intent at all to disenfranchise anyone who is legally able to vote.
I concede, I'm the only person in here that doesn't like the concept of voter fraud and would like to find solutions to prevent it that work for everyone...
But since apparently no one else feels it's actually a problem... I'll go find other threads to talk in.

My apologies.

The number one driver of voter fraud is voter ID laws. They deny voters their constitutional right through fraud at a legislative level.

You're deliberately ignoring that. There IS NO INDIVIDUAL VOTER FRAUD PROBLEM. None.

 

[Hale-XF11]

I believe it was shut down in Wisconsin as well, though it's still law. At voting time, voters with no ID will be able to sign an affidavit testifying their inability to obtain an ID, then they will receive a ballot, uncontested. Hilarious and sad, but true.

 

[Africanus]

The largest amount of voter fraud in the United States occurs in Kindergarten line leader elections.
We must stop this.

 

[ExVicis]

My feeling on this is that if you don't need to show ID to vote than you shouldn't need to show ID to:

-Go to E3
-Fly on a plane
-Visit the RNC convention
-Visit the DNC convention
-Check out the White House lawn from inside the fence
-Buy alcohol

That said, I'm okay with not requiring ID to vote if we can ensure no one can vote twice and dead people aren't allowed to vote.

I don't want to dogpile on this post but...going to E3 is definitely not the same as voting.

 

[Imperfected]

The largest amount of voter fraud in the United States occurs in Kindergarten line leader elections.
We must stop this.

Don't worry, we've got a plan.

It starts with electing the Crown Prince of Kindergarteners...

 

[Loudninja]

With the Ted Cruz stuff this makes for a pretty funny day.

 

[Gattsu25]

My feeling on this is that if you don't need to show ID to vote than you shouldn't need to show ID to:

-Go to E3
-Fly on a plane
-Visit the RNC convention
-Visit the DNC convention
-Check out the White House lawn from inside the fence
-Buy alcohol

That said, I'm okay with not requiring ID to vote if we can ensure no one can vote twice and dead people aren't allowed to vote.

Always good when people expose themselves. Comparing the importance of going to E3 as the constitutional right to vote both shows how little you value the constitution and a severe lack of understanding.

 

[besada]

Both excellent and unsurprising that they found the law in violation. Now if my state legislators would quit wasting my tax money on trying to disenfranchise citizens of the state, things would be peachy.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Let's spend a large amount of money on a solution to an occurrence that is statistically insignificant.

 

[Timedog]

If you know that voter fraud is almost nonexistent, yet still want these laws passed knowing full well that so many minorities will not have their say in the Democratic process, you're a racist. Thanks for being the glue that keeps our country fractured.

 

[Gattsu25]

Let's spend a large amount of money on a solution to an occurrence that is statistically insignificant.

It IS statistically significant. It's just not the stated issue they are trying to "solve":

From voterfraud.com (a non partisan group fighting against a similar law in Wisconsin)

Given that individual voter fraud does not happen you have to ask yourself why you would want to prevent something that does not occur at an expense of millions of dollars.

The answer is in the demographic breakdown of those people who would be unable to vote who are currently allowed to vote.