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[Team Andromeda]

What if Sega had listened to Tom Kalinske and taken on the architecture which would later form the Ultra 64, (N64) surely that would have done away with the mesh effects? Also they say that at the time with the TVs you would have they wouldn't look as ugly as when you are looking at those textures now in all their HD glory...

The N64 didn't come out till 1996 could hardly handle games at 30 FPS had no sound hardware and couldn't handle High Res graphics, oh and was harder to develop on than a Saturn and it's development environment was far more costly than a Saturn. SEGA Japan we're right to turn it down. If only they carried on their project with N Vidia mind.

 

[nkarafo]

The N64.... couldn't handle High Res graphics

Where is this coming from? There are a few high-res N64 games that don't need the expansion pack.

 

[SnapShot]

No 3D Sonic, No buy

Sonic Jam's Sonic World was decent tho

 

[RAIDEN1]

No 3D Sonic, No buy

Sonic Jam's Sonic World was decent tho

The Saturn needed a Sonic Mania .....plays to the systems strengths of 2d....more so as they were having trouble in recreating their own Mario 64...(See Sonic Xtreme for that!)

 

[SirTerry-T]

The Saturn wasn't that much of a pain in the arse to code for if you were one of those hardcore coders who did stuff the old fashioned way a.k.a assembly language rather than use all that middleware stuff that was entering the scene around that time.

It was said at the time, on numerous occasions, that the Saturn was a "coders machine", complicated hardware sure but great for the rocket scientists who like digging away at all that silicon.

AM2 and Travellers Tales' John Burton are just two examples.
You could probably add Game Arts and Lobotomy to that list too.

 

[nkarafo]

You could probably add Game Arts and Lobotomy to that list too.

The Slave engine did wonders for the system.

 

[Sephimoth]

Loved my Saturn back then, still play it from time to time for nostalgia. Shame it was mismanaged by Sega and died.

What could have been...

 

[SmokedMeat]

After this, Sega locked UMK3 for themselves on 32-bit, which is the superior version of MK3. But by then the hype was down. I think UMK3 barely did anything despite the game being way better. MK3 was also getting old by this time.

I preordered UMK3 for Saturn, and in a total kick to the balls Midway announced Mortal Kombat Trilogy for PS1 around the time of, or shortly after UMK3 Saturn launched. Of course Saturn was excluded, and didn’t receive a port until much later.

As a Saturn owner it felt like you just couldn’t get a win with third parties.

 

[dave_d]

I preordered UMK3 for Saturn, and in a total kick to the balls Midway announced Mortal Kombat Trilogy for PS1 around the time of, or shortly after UMK3 Saturn launched. Of course Saturn was excluded, and didn’t receive a port until much later.

As a Saturn owner it felt like you just couldn’t get a win with third parties.

I had to look it up, released June 26 1996. I think they announced MKT at E3 in May of 96. (Came out October 10 96 for the PSX, Nov 4 for the N64) That was a definite suck for Saturn owners.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

It was more difficult to program for, didn't do 3d as well as its competitors, initially cost more, didn't have enough games in its library to appeal to the western market, and had an absolute mess of a launch in the us. It did very well in Japan, but was doa everywhere else.

Anecdotally, I never knew anyone growing up who had one. Everyone either had a ps1 and or n64.

It did okay in Japan; the gap between it and N64 there wasn't that big and if Nintendo had officially manufactured N64 a bit longer, they probably would have overtaken Saturn's sales there. Sega also hurt Saturn late-life sales by rushing the Dreamcast to the Japanese market, mainly to beat PS2 by 16 months.

If Sega had held off on Dreamcast in Japan until at least early-mid 1999, stock would've been better and maybe more Saturn owners would have been ready to move on to 6th gen. They could've still kept the September 1999 release for NA they just would have worked in a more compressed time span.

 

[cartman414]

The N64 didn't come out till 1996 could hardly handle games at 30 FPS had no sound hardware and couldn't handle High Res graphics, oh and was harder to develop on than a Saturn and it's development environment was far more costly than a Saturn. SEGA Japan we're right to turn it down. If only they carried on their project with N Vidia mind.

When the hardware was proposed, was the RSP part of the package? 4 KB instruction + 4 KB data RAM was way too little to work with. (The PS2 carried this type of philosophy along with using Rambus DRAM over.)

 

[Team Andromeda]

When the hardware was proposed, was the RSP part of the package? 4 KB instruction + 4 KB data RAM was way too little to work with. (The PS2 carried this type of philosophy along with using Rambus DRAM over.)

It came over budget and 2 years late and was a system that was even harder to develop on than a Saturn, add in no sound hardware, how you can count on one had the number of games that run at 60 FPS, how so many games suffered from fogging and blurry low res graphics and SEGA were right to turn it down IMO along with Bullfrog/M2

Its a shame SEGA stopped its work with Nvidia mind, but hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[Team Andromeda]

Where is this coming from? There are a few high-res N64 games that don't need the expansion pack.

It comes from owning the system. So many games run in low res and suffer washed-out blurry graphics

 

[Team Andromeda]

There are no double standards here. The Model 2 was an amazingly powerful system that could produce dazzling high res graphics, with plenty of detail, at 60 fps. People were too busy being impressed to nitpick about quads or transparencies.

The Saturn had none of the Model 2's positives but all of it's negatives. There wasn't anything to hold on so you can ignore it's shortcomings. The only thing it had going for it was it's reputation for being better at 2D... in a time where 3D was the next big thing.

That's why it makes no sense comparing these two, they are completely different cases.

There is a wave of double standards. A bet many people didn't even know that the Model 2 had to use Mesh effects, they either can't remember or are too busy watching YouTube videos with games being played on an emu that doesn't show the mesh effects in use.

It's bad for the Saturn, but ok for Model 2. Then the best of the lot is how the USA Saturn cost more than PS, had the worst USA launch line up and was harder to programme for. All that goes out the window for the PS2 mind, it cost more than the DC was hardware to programme for and its USA launch lineup was crap compared the USA DC launch. I know what's coming next, how you all bought a PS2 to watch DVD's

In the end what killed Saturn was SEGA America wasting everyone's time with the 32X and messing up Sonic next gen project.
Without the 32X and if SEGA Japan had Sonic Team make a Sonic game. I would have said the Saturn could have won against the N64.

 

[nkarafo]

It comes from owning the system. So many games run in low res and suffer washed-out blurry graphics

I own the system too. NFL Quarterback Club 98 runs at 640 x 480 (no expansion pack required) with no blurriness and no frame rate issues while having some of the best 3D graphics and models in a sports title at the time.

You specifically said for the N64 how it "couldn't handle High Res graphics", which is demonstratively false.

Then you go on and imply that the lack of many 60 fps games must be a hardware issue instead of a developer choice and the fact that the N64 only had a handful of 2D games (that generally run at 60fps).

I like how you complain when others bash the Saturn but here you are, touting and inflating every N64 negative and adding a few myths of your own to spice it up.

How's that for a double standard?

A bet many people didn't even know that the Model 2 had to use Mesh effects, they either can't remember or are too busy watching YouTube videos with games being played on an emu that doesn't show the mesh effects in use.

Nah, they were just too busy being impressed instead of focusing on it's flaws.

 

[Panajev2001a]

When the hardware was proposed, was the RSP part of the package? 4 KB instruction + 4 KB data RAM was way too little to work with. (The PS2 carried this type of philosophy along with using Rambus DRAM over.)

True, but I guess it had other issues that pained people (like fill rate performance being halved with z buffer on, Direct RDRAM for PS2 being a bigger step up in bandwidth and latency [it got a bad rep on PC thanks to Intel and quite demonstrated carrel by other manufacturers, there was nothing inherently horrible about it hence why Alpha went with it for EV7/EV8 with seemingly great resulta] inability for many devs to tweak the ucode for the RSP and default ucode not being that performant/bit too conservative).

By comparison VU’s had tons more memory to work with: VU1 had 16 KB of data and 16 KB of instruction memory, VU0 was the one with 4 KB of data and 4 KB of instruction memory and on top of that quite fast 16 KB of scratch pad shared for the EE core (both VU’s had a quite fat register file, not sure about the RSP would need to double check that). I dunno… I always had a soft spot for this design, warts and all .

 

[cireza]

As a Saturn owner it felt like you just couldn’t get a win with third parties.

Yet we were playing an awesome port of X-Men COTA first year.

 

[Team Andromeda]

I own the system too. NFL Quarterback Club 98 runs at 640 x 480 (no expansion pack required) with no blurriness and no frame rate issues while having some of the best 3D graphics and models in a sports title at the time.

You specifically said for the N64 how it "couldn't handle High Res graphics", which is demonstratively false.

Then you go on and imply that the lack of many 60 fps games must be a hardware issue instead of a developer choice and the fact that the N64 only had a handful of 2D games (that generally run at 60fps).

I like how you complain when others bash the Saturn but here you are, touting and inflating every N64 negative and adding a few myths of your own to spice it up.

How's that for a double standard?



Nah, they were just too busy being impressed instead of focusing on it's flaws.

You can list the games on one hand that run in High Res mate for the N64. If you want to talk good looking sports games how about Decathlete a game that runs at 60 FPS and at a screen res of 704X480
How's that for a double standard

And please don't make out that when people talk of why the Saturn failed, they don't bring up the launch software or it was hard to programme for.

I was impressed with the Saturn despite it's flaws. Has a SEGA fan I was well used to SEGA poor support for colour laying

 

[nkarafo]

You can list the games on one hand that run in High Res mate for the N64. If you want to talk good looking sports games how about Decathlete a game that runs at 60 FPS and at a screen res of 704X480

Decathlete looks significantly simpler than NFL and it can only render two 3D models in that big, flat stadium, the rest are replaced by ugly 2D sprites that stick out like a sore thumb.

It's one of the most lifeless looking games IMO. Flat and empty.

But whatever, your claim was false anyway. A few games being high-res means the console can do high-res. After that, it's a developer's choice. Same with 60fps.

Btw, the N64 had a smaller library than the Saturn. Fewer games in general = fewer high res games and fewer 60fps games. It's simple statistics.

How's that for a double standard

Huh? I never claimed the Saturn can't do high-res or 60fps or anything of the sort. You did that for the N64 and i just proved you wrong.

Do you even know what a "double standard" is?

Your responses seem childish or overly butt-hurt. Yeah, your favorite console was a failure. Deal with it, it's been 25 years.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Decathlete looks significantly simpler than NFL and it can only render two 3D models in that big, flat stadium, the rest are replaced by ugly 2D sprites that stick out like a sore thumb.

It's one of the most lifeless looking games IMO. Flat and empty.

But whatever, your claim was false anyway. A few games being high-res means the console can do high-res. After that, it's a developer's choice. Same with 60fps.

Btw, the N64 had a smaller library than the Saturn. Fewer games in general = fewer high res games and fewer 60fps games. It's simple statistics.



Huh? I never claimed the Saturn can't do high-res or 60fps or anything of the sort. You did that for the N64 and i just proved you wrong.

Do you even know what a "double standard" is?

Your responses seem childish or overly butt-hurt. Yeah, your favorite console was a failure. Deal with it, it's been 25 years.

Still better than anything on the N64. You want nice High Res 3D graphics then WorldSeries 98 is a joy to behold And there's nothing fake about how many more Saturn games run at a higher res or supported 60 FPS compared to the N64. If you owned an N64 at the time lack 60 FPS and burly graphics (how does one say it.) stuck out like a soar thumb.

I don't care how well a console sells either or a game, some of my fav games are the biggest flops of all time

I'm simply correcting your Saturn bashing , and I do it for another 25 years too

 

[SkylineRKR]

I preordered UMK3 for Saturn, and in a total kick to the balls Midway announced Mortal Kombat Trilogy for PS1 around the time of, or shortly after UMK3 Saturn launched. Of course Saturn was excluded, and didn’t receive a port until much later.

As a Saturn owner it felt like you just couldn’t get a win with third parties.

I understand the sentiment, when Trilogy was announced I thought it was the MK that would end all MK games. But I ended up hating it. Its an unbalanced mess, almost a MUGEN project. I liked UMK3 on Saturn more. UMK3 is objectively better, its also the game that went on to be released on XBLA etc.

 

[nkarafo]

Still better than anything on the N64. You want nice High Res 3D graphics then WorldSeries 98 is a joy to behold.

You mean the Baseball?

That's not even a high res game! Unless you only count the title screen and menus

If you owned an N64 at the time lack 60 FPS and burly graphics (how does one say it.) stuck out like a soar thumb.

True, there weren't as many as i would like. But i owned a bunch of them (F-Zero X, Smash Bros, MK4, Yoshi's Story). Which was 1/4 of my total collection btw.

It's also true the N64 had a blurry output, which was one of it's negatives. But back in the day, on a CRT, it was fine. Plus, the N64 had some other benefits over the Saturn and Playstation. Like how it can do better, stable 3D geometry.

I don't care how well a console sells either or a game, some of my fav games are the biggest flops of all time

Yeah but it does make you act a bit butt-hurt though. Which i get. The Playstation made a lot of Sega and Nintendo fans but-hurt back then.

I'm simply correcting your Saturn bashing , and I do it for another 25 years too

It's my least favorite console of the 3. But i don't really "bash" it the same way you undermine the N64 like it had no positives at all. I can still say a lot of good things for the Saturn myself. Like how it had the best versions of Duke Nukem 3D, Quake and Powerslave. These games were amazing on the Saturn and IMO much more technically impressive than any hi-res or 60fps game on the same console. I also think it's the best console for 2D shooters by far. So, dunno, i just don't think it's the perfect gift from god. If that counts for "bashing" ok.

 

[RoboFu]

Loved my Saturn back then, still play it from time to time for nostalgia. Shame it was mismanaged by Sega and died.

What could have been...

That game is crazy.. it has multiple characters with poly counts like VF 2 but with full detailed 3D backgrounds .
and it supposedly just used the ram cart to make it all happen. If that’s true then not pushing the ram cart was a big mistake.

 

[Team Andromeda]

You mean the Baseball?

That's not even a high res game! Unless you only count the title screen and menus

It runs in semi res, which is still higher than 90% of N64 games.
I got my N64 on import for the USA launch and bar Mario 64 almost every N64 game I owned had issues with blurry graphics, I was far more impressed with the games than the chipset. Back in those days with new systems one expected and saw advancements in frames or screen res, the N64 was in many cases worse than the previous gen and I also felt the N64 was a step backwards from even the SNES sonically too. So I was not impressed with the N64 chipset at all, the games were a different matter.

And don't try and lecture me on being childish either. Needing to bring up sales & use terms like flops is the stuff of Kindergarten school and you're also talking the wrong person over it. Three of my fav films NightBreed, JC's The Thing and BladeRunner were horrible flops or failures, My fav handheld of all time was and still is the Neo Geo Pocket, which was a horrible flop, one of my fav games of all time is Kung Fu Choas which was a horrible flop.

I care not about sales and just care about the enjoyment a game or film gives me...

 

[Team Andromeda]

That game is crazy.. it has multiple characters with poly counts like VF 2 but with full detailed 3D backgrounds .
and it supposedly just used the ram cart to make it all happen. If that’s true then not pushing the ram cart was a big mistake.

The game run on a stock Saturn and did not look to use the RAM cart.

I don't like to use it myself though and look to use finished retail games and there were plenty of great looking games on the Saturn and some that really had impressive 3D graphics too.

 

[MadchesterManc]

Love me some Saturn A shame that when I last pulled it out the other week the battery had died and wiped my Shining the Holy Ark & Story of Thor 2 saves. Should really invest in one of those Ram/Save carts I guess.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I understand the sentiment, when Trilogy was announced I thought it was the MK that would end all MK games. But I ended up hating it. Its an unbalanced mess, almost a MUGEN project. I liked UMK3 on Saturn more. UMK3 is objectively better, its also the game that went on to be released on XBLA etc.

I never picked up MK Trilogy, so I’m not aware of how it turned out. Just felt like we had something to be excited about at the time, and then got one upped.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Love me some Saturn A shame that when I last pulled it out the other week the battery had died and wiped my Shining the Holy Ark & Story of Thor 2 saves. Should really invest in one of those Ram/Save carts I guess.

Shining the Holy Ark was easily in my top three Saturn games. It was no doubt the template for Golden Sun.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Yet we were playing an awesome port of X-Men COTA first year.

True. I think I rented Children of the Atom, and would later go on to buy Night Warriors.

A local Mom and Pop videogame store near me carried all the cool import Saturn and PlayStation games. Should’ve grabbed X-Men vs Street Fighter, which was an incredible port on Saturn.

 

[RAIDEN1]

It makes you wonder though, the amount of money Sega lost on the Saturn project, yet they come back and create the Dreamcast with no margin for error....everything had to be absolutely perfect, but it seems even the day it released it was on borrowed time from day-one...

 

[cireza]

the amount of money Sega lost on the Saturn project

Saturn years were profitable though.

UMK3 is objectively better, its also the game that went on to be released on XBLA etc.

This. UMK3 was a product from Midway, while MKT was a "best of" game developed by some other developer. They put all the assets they had from previous games but didn't make proper efforts to adjust them. MK1 and MK2 characters lack proper animations for running for example. Honestly, it is a mess. I prefer UMK3 as well. Feels more polished really.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Saturn years were profitable though.

I suppose.....when you consider it was Sega's most successful console in the land of Japan, compared to its predecessor

 

[Fatnick]

Consumer revenue dropped by 30% between 1994 and 1997 at the same time as costs were rising. Sega would have felt the pinch sooner had they not seen a revenue increase on the arcade operating/machine manufacturing side.

 

[scydrex]

In Japan yes, the Saturn actually sold better than N64 there. It was Sega's most succesful console in Japan. Carried by the likes of Sakura Taisen and VF2. But Europe? I am very sure the N64 outsold the Saturn by a wide margin. Saturn was pretty much being ignored from 1997 onwards, many stores didn't carry it anymore. N64 was available until the new millenium, like PSX.

In fact I had to advise people not to buy a Saturn at some point. We sold it for the equivalent of 100 bucks, and the PSX was about 150 ish I think. But I would tell the Saturn is actually more powerful, it can do certain things very well, however its support is dying. Its funny how this all works. Before N64 came out, we were hyping it up like the next best thing and even saying to consumers that CDs are prone to damage while cartridges are more safe. But when the cat was out of the bag, we were all PSX. Biggest stream of games, best distributions and profits. Its also about distribution, that Sony won this generation by a landslide. Sega and Nintendo were really stuck in the past, where it was kind of normal, but the gaming industry evolved and Sony understood it better than those 2. Especially cartridges were a pain.

I still have my Wipeout 3 disc in original form and still play the music fine in any radio or cd rom.

 

[SkylineRKR]

It makes you wonder though, the amount of money Sega lost on the Saturn project, yet they come back and create the Dreamcast with no margin for error....everything had to be absolutely perfect, but it seems even the day it released it was on borrowed time from day-one...

Dreamcast never stood a chance. The mind was set on PS2. Dreamcast would be a stop gap system, PS2 would blow it away. That was the general assumption.

Commercially, DC did almost nothing. It never outsold the PS1 in any month I think, bar its launch. Sega didn't have the third party support to combat Sony. The few games they had, like RE CV, they had by chance because Capcom cancelled RE2 on Saturn. For the rest most third parties would either put quick PC ports on it, or their hardcore games Sony probably blocked in the first place.

They could have not release it and go third party from the get go, and lose less money in the process.

But Sega's problem has always been that most of their IP don't sell. Those are legendary IP like Shinobi, Golden Axe, Outrun... they don't sell. PS2 versions were made of those IP, and no one bought them. Like those DC projects moved on to Xbox, and those PS2 versions of Headhunter, Ecco etc.. no one gave a shit.

 

[Calverz]

For decades I have toyed with the idea of buying a Saturn. It’s the only major home console I have never owned at any point. But being in the UK, I know the software library wasn’t particularly big. I’m not into bullet hell shooters or jrpg anymore so importing is pointless.

Tbh I’d probably just want it for actua soccer, tomb raider and resident evil ports. Probably the virtua games too.

 

[cireza]

For decades I have toyed with the idea of buying a Saturn. It’s the only major home console I have never owned at any point. But being in the UK, I know the software library wasn’t particularly big. I’m not into bullet hell shooters or jrpg anymore so importing is pointless.

Tbh I’d probably just want it for actua soccer, tomb raider and resident evil ports. Probably the virtua games too.

I have always defended and will continue to defend the excellent PAL library. People will always focus on Japanese games for whatever reasons, but the PAL library was perfectly fine and kept me playing until the arrival of the Dreamcast.

It is too late however to invest in Saturn. Used game prices have reached absurd heights. You are never going to buy many games because of this. If you buy a Saturn, you should probably opt for some other ways to play games on it (like the Fenrir, for example). Also CRT + RGB Scart is the way to go. Excellent cables a retrogamingcables.co.uk

 

[Calverz]

I understand the sentiment, when Trilogy was announced I thought it was the MK that would end all MK games. But I ended up hating it. Its an unbalanced mess, almost a MUGEN project. I liked UMK3 on Saturn more. UMK3 is objectively better, its also the game that went on to be released on XBLA etc.

Was that original xbla version of UMK3? Not the arcade kollection? I had that in the early 360 days. It was great playing online. I remember a uni mate came round and watched me. He just couldn’t believe I was fighting some American somewhere on my tv (he wasn’t a gamer really).

 

[Calverz]

I have always defended and will continue to defend the excellent PAL library. People will always focus on Japanese games for whatever reasons, but the PAL library was perfectly fine and kept me playing until the arrival of the Dreamcast.

It is too late however to invest in Saturn. Used game prices have reached absurd heights. You are never going to buy many games because of this. If you buy a Saturn, you should probably opt for some other ways to play games on it (like the Fenrir, for example). Also CRT + RGB Scart is the way to go. Excellent cables a retrogamingcables.co.uk

Yea I toyed with idea going all the way back to 2008/9. I should’ve bought one then but was a poor student. Iv missed the boat. I recently tried resident evil saturn through emulation on my series x and realy liked the differences to the psx version. Also sega rally. But I yearn to play them on the big black box and that kidney bean controller as originally intended.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

Good video overall, except for this part :

VDP2 was rumored to be included later in development

First time I hear this one ! Makes absolutely no sense.

think he got confused with sega adding a second SH-2 CPU later in development (w/ of course the rumor being it was due to sega mgmt getting wind of the playstation's 3d performance... or maybe it was the n64's, who knows).

interesting story from hitachi's POV (saturn CPU producer)

 

[sachos]

Nice system to find some hidden gems in.

 

[cartman414]

think he got confused with sega adding a second SH-2 CPU later in development (w/ of course the rumor being it was due to sega mgmt getting wind of the playstation's 3d performance... or maybe it was the n64's, who knows).

interesting story from hitachi's POV (saturn CPU producer)

Thanks. I forgot about that interview. It was, weirdly enough, more of a response to the output of the N64 chip.

 

[Celine]

Saturn years were profitable though.

Sega consumer division (console) started going into red from the fiscal year beginning April 1995. Sega arcade divisions were what was covering up those losses for Sega in its entirity.
Financial performance began going south for Sega consumer division the previous fiscal year during which profitability shrunked over 75% from the FY before.

 

[cartman414]

Sega consumer division (console) started going into red from the fiscal year beginning April 1995. Sega arcade divisions were what was covering up those losses for Sega in its entirity.
Financial performance began going south for Sega consumer division the previous fiscal year during which profitability shrunked over 75% from the FY before.

Sega had their hands in too many pots at the time (i. e. GameWorks).

 

[nush]

Sega had their hands in too many pots at the time (i. e. GameWorks).

They were supporting something like 7 systems as well.

 

[RAIDEN1]

I saw this article, thought I'd post it here about Sega's very own Final Fantasy: https://www.denofgeek.com/games/panzer-dragoon-saga-gamings-great-lost-rpg/

 

[SkylineRKR]

Was that original xbla version of UMK3? Not the arcade kollection? I had that in the early 360 days. It was great playing online. I remember a uni mate came round and watched me. He just couldn’t believe I was fighting some American somewhere on my tv (he wasn’t a gamer really).

Yes there was a UMK3 released seperate on XBLA way back in the first year of the 360. For me it was crazy to play it online too. And it was decent I remember, I had some good matches on there and combos worked well.

 

[dave_d]

I saw this article, thought I'd post it here about Sega's very own Final Fantasy: https://www.denofgeek.com/games/panzer-dragoon-saga-gamings-great-lost-rpg/

Hmm, maybe they would have been better off with a slower development and releasing it for the Dreamcast instead since they only sold 20k here in the US according to that. (Maybe if they did that they wouldn't have killed 2 of the developers)

 

[Calverz]

Yes there was a UMK3 released seperate on XBLA way back in the first year of the 360. For me it was crazy to play it online too. And it was decent I remember, I had some good matches on there and combos worked well.

Yea same. Although it did make me realise how poor the 360 dpad was.

 

[Draxon Gamer]

Sony actually struck gold with the Mortal Kombat 3 deal. It wasn't even a good port (the fucking load times), but closer to the arcade than 16-bit. It was a 2D game, but MK3 was with the 16 bit crowd the most anticipated fighter. I believe it was the best selling 32-bit game of 1995 in Europe. It was the game that managed to migrate SNES and MD users. The most faithful version was only on PSX.

After this, Sega locked UMK3 for themselves on 32-bit, which is the superior version of MK3. But by then the hype was down. I think UMK3 barely did anything despite the game being way better. MK3 was also getting old by this time.

But I think the worse 3D did contribute to its failure. These 2 systems were compared side by side, they were also displayed in stores side by side. If you run both Daytona and RR its apparent that RR looked more appealing. Factor in the higher price tag Saturn had and it was an easy choice for consumers. I think this is how it went. Ofcourse, not having much software that would attract Genesis owners didn't help matters too. Worse, Sega didn't keep their word about this sytem. They would support it and see it as an important pillar, but by early 1996 the Genesis was pretty much done for. I still had one and while SNES went on (partially because of the N64 delay), there was almost nothing to look forward to. 32-bit systems were unaffordable for youngsters over here (being 400-500 euros each when they launched, when converted) I knew many who actually bought a cheap SNES (which was priced at 100 or less) with DKC2, Killer instinct et al.

Rayman was also riding the success that year especially in parts of Europe. While it was also on the Saturn, it was 2 months late in US and 1 month late in Europe. Sega in both Europe and US contrary to popular belief was trying to push 3D much harder early on than what people think they did. The problem was that they didn't have games that would get players to leave the Genesis, the PS1 had those. For the games they both had either the Saturn got late, or Sega never bothered to grab and Sony would eventually grab those games later.

UMK3 was a get but we are talking a few months gap between the release of UMK3 and MKT. MKT sold truckloads on the PS1, and was well marketed by Nintendo as a mature game you could get during the early days of the N64. UMK3 wasn't pulling anyone by then.

Worse 3D may have contributed to the Saturn not being able to salvage a profitable niche, but even if the 3D was the same as the PS1 I don't see any path away from failure a year after launch outside of Japan. The system systematically died everywhere in the west around the same time. Price tag is probably the only early factor that may have helped them a certain amount, but when you have the same games lineup, the same developers you are ignoring or letting your competitor grab, the same strategy that doesn't work to bring those Genesis players to your new product, and Sega already by end of 1995 laying the groundwork to port games to PC, expand beyond their consoles, funding various pet projects, then I can't honestly say anything would actually change.

Fall the next year, BEFORE Tomb Raider came out. Saturn was already selling peanuts and the PlayStation was way ahead, and in Japan was already widening the gap quickly for several months leading up to that same point. Sega did not have the time to have messed up for as long as they did. Saturn wasn't the only system that ended up taking the fall from that failure, the Genesis did too. Sega released some high-production genesis games but they weren't selling like the SNES later releases. I think people forget that Sega didn't have a war chest to make all these mistakes and afford to quickly reverse them, or if they chose the wrong path forward to easily be able to spend their way to a different lane. They were spending almost as much as they were bringing in or more since 1992 between arcades, consoles, development teams, and other projects. They were putting a lot of hope and dependence on the Model-3 thinking that machine would cause people to become so engaged that those games would make Sega bank coin after coin for years and it didn't go anywhere. Saturn not being able to capture even 1/5th of the Genesis footprint in the west was the other knockout to their finances.