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U.S. Employers Struggle To Match Workers With Open Jobs

Rockandrollclown

lookwhatyou'vedone
Here's the hint, if it's a tech company with more than like 50 employees odds are they are abusing the current H-1B system.



Not just tech anymore, pretty much everyone knows the tricks now. Thats the real "they took our jerbs" shit. Its meant to be an avenue for the US to acquire people with skills not available in the US. Its awesome when its used for that. its shitty when its used to undercut the fair market rate for labor.
 

Chozoman

Banned
Fuck you employers and your post recession employers' market bullshit fleecing of employees.

I hope these fucking cunts get a karmic slap in the face. They are basically stifling an already debt burdened, highly credentialed generation by being petty penny pinches who are horrified to admit that Millennials are actually much more qualified than they ever were when they first entered the work force.

You don't get the highest, most overvalued stock market values in history by writing a bunch of checks.

This reminds me of a job I applied to at an educational company looking to grow its digital team where the title was Producer / Game Designer.
Which is fine, as there's overlap there and I have experience in both.

However after talking with them it turns out they basically wanted a person to be the Lead Producer and Lead Game Designer; but really the most annoying part was they wanted this person for $40k

Man...Producer/Designer hybrid would be difficult enough, let alone Lead Producer/Lead Designer. That's just asinine. IMHO, there is not a lot of overlap there.
 

PistolGrip

sex vacation in Guam
I have a funny story.

Some background: I have around 15 years of experience, have two graduate degrees and an MBA from a top business school.

I interviewed with this one small tech company (60 people) who wanted a second in command. They had me travel 2 hours to NJ (I live in NY) and did not compensate my travel expenses. When I get there, the CEO tells me I am way too young but quickly rephrases to needing someone with more years of "experience". Did he not see my resume? Then he tells me he wants candidates who have managed thousands of people in the past. I specifically have team sizes that I had lead in my resume. The real kicker was when he told me the salary for the role. I almost fell backwards. It was 75K lower than my current compensation.

It was a complete was of time and money. I destroyed recruiter verbally for not doing his job.
 
I recently saw a job listing for a desktop support technician. They wanted someone with A+ certification...and a computer science degree.
 

ev0

Member
Man...Producer/Designer hybrid would be difficult enough, let alone Lead Producer/Lead Designer. That's just asinine. IMHO, there is not a lot of overlap there.

Oh I agree, I gave them the benefit of the doubt on the overlap before I knew they basically wanted Lead duties for both.

On a lower level I did both those things all the time, but I was younger and really wanted in the biz, and its easier if I'm just managing or designing on small part of a game. That salary really got me though. That job posting stayed up for at least 8 months. I wonder if they gave up or someone took it.
 

Josh7289

Member
Hopefully companies with shitty hiring practices start getting their asses handed to them in the market by companies that treat their workers well, with appropriate pay and appropriate working conditions.
 
...but that's not how you provide immediate maximum shareholder value...

/s

This is a 2 fold problem that global neoliberal capitalism has created: an uninvolved investor class that expects huge yields on little to no risk and in the short term plus a huge, commoditized labor pool which dilutes the value of labor.

It's funny watching global capitalism destroy itself because the rich who consolidate this wealth and power refuse to share any of it. If the people you employ can't afford to buy the products and services you make, everything will fall apart. Those like Henry Ford knew this at the beginning of the last industrial revolution.
 
This is basically why I buff the shit out of my resume and application and encourage everyone to do the same. Don't have those four years? Make shit up and dig deep if you have to in order to support those lies. Forge shit if you have to.

I've lied about experience and qualifications and it has gotten me a job with really no negative consequences.

What's funny is I would say I am more than qualified. The employer asks for the dumbest requirements ever for their positions. They would rather leave the position vacant and claim hard times than invest in a proper hiring process and investing in their workforce.

Fuck them to hell.
 
Not that hard.
If you have an employee you want to train, reward him for completion with a raise and charge him for the training. Don't actually make him pay these costs unless he leaves the company and after a set period of time (when the employer has made the money back on the training) this is payed off.
The employee wanting to leave for a new job with his new training will now ask his new employer looking to headhunt him to take over these costs of leaving, thus sharing the costs of this training between employers.

Beyond that, make sure people enjoy the working conditions, and feel loyal to their employer. Which again comes from paying them what they deserve, give them a raise when they are worth it not only when they ask for it.
Yes, working conditions and creating a good environment is the most important thing. But I have seen people skipping jobs within a few months due to various reasons around me, and well... that is quite the waste of training and such on newcomers who were hired straight out of college. Can't blame a company for not wanting to do that too much.

Of course it also depends a bit on the size of the company. If you have actual training programs, your solution might work for some. But in most companies, the training is just being on the job and your manager or co-workers showing you the way for the first weeks or months.

It's really a balance between companies and employees. But the companies are asking for too much for too little money when talking about larger corporations. For small business it is a bit different.
 
Higher level IT job requirements is a fucking joke. CCNA, A+, Network+, ITIL, etc all for barely $50k. And heaven forbid if you want to switch and get into network security. You had better had every single security and network cert known to man. Yet, most of the people I know who already have these positions said that 90% of those requirements is bullshit and you never even need it for the posted job.
 

bengraven

Member
As someone who's just waiting to get fired from his job, I noticed this myself this morning on Indeed.com.

Also...

My brother in law needs someone to help in his office - they will literally do what he does. His equal. He has a bachelors degree.

The U he works for us now asking for a five year degree, minimum of 60 hours a week, nights and weekends, able to lift 100 lbs on a regular basis, etc etc.

My BIL (and the person who will be his peer) just sits on his ass watching Game of Thrones, occasionally pays someone with a company credit card, and spends the rest of the time wandering around the building prancing people and making friends. He leaves two hours early every day. And he asked for someone else to "help" him and they decided he needed it and will be getting him thr help he needs. He also just got a raise. He makes 60k a year.
 
When I was looking for a job before getting my current job (geologist), I saw a bunch of listings for a "field chemist" and applied for a few, and they required a bachelors in science and all these experiences requirements, and I later found out that the job was literally just a person that drives around collecting "hazardous" waste. Like going to a Walgreens and collecting all of their damaged products that they can't throw in the normal trash.

What a waste of a chemistry/science degree.
 

Socivol

Member
I've been looking for a new job for about 11 months and I can't find anything. When you get interviews that processes are so ridiculous now as well. I had a company that had me interview 4 times over the course of 5 months and I didn't get the position. By the time the process was done I wouldn't have accepted the job had I gotten it because they treated the process so poorly.
 
This is a reciprocal relationship, though. Companies can only take the risk in investing in your training if they can expect you to stay around. However, once you have been trained, you can get a higher salary at another company that did not waste money on training, so you'll probably move. So companies don't take the risk in investing in you.

Company training relied on the cultural glue and social norms of company loyalty. It's not clear to me how we overcome that problem now we live in such an atomised society.

That's a connection I hadn't made before. I always put it down to labour market strength (i.e. when employees have collective power via unionisation and the credible threat of withdrawing labour, they can demand good training), but the individualist norm is likely a contributor too.
 

Laekon

Member
This is a problem though. Imagine you have two companies, A and B, which have a fixed budget to spend, 10,000 dollaroos. A offers an 8,000 dollaroo wage and puts 2,000 dollaroos towards training. B offers no training, but offers 10,000 dollaroos. Employees will work for A, acquire training, then move to B because of the higher wage. So A cuts their training, since it makes no difference anyway. The end result is nobody gets trained.
Hospitals have new grad nurses sign a contract and if you leave early you have to pay them for your training. If a company provides real training, not a few days learning their computer system, then they should try to do the same.
 

MoxManiac

Member
Hospitals have new grad nurses sign a contract and if you leave early you have to pay them for your training. If a company provides real training, not a few days learning their computer system, then they should try to do the same.

Honestly, if a company is willing to train me in skills that could be beneficial for the rest of my career, I'd probably be okay with such a contract.
 
Honestly, if a company is willing to train me in skills that could be beneficial for the rest of my career, I'd probably be okay with such a contract.

Same here. At least if they legit paid and took the time to get you trained, then it shows they actually WANT you to be there and WANT you to work for them and be a part of what of they are.

If anything, if the training also leads to you going up in the company or using skills at a higher level that you could take to a different company, then yeah, I'd pay that.
 
Did other industries learn from tech? Tech definitely abuses the visa program with the excuse that there aren't enough skilled laborers, which is BS and it's been proved.

Job postings definitely have something to do with it. They can say, "hey look we need someone with ALL of these skills", when they really don't.
 

Josh378

Member
I'm a network Engineer (certified) with multiple certs from other areas of IT (VM, MCSE), and I know for a fact that I can go to glassdoor.com and find network engineer positions that ask for ridiculous knowledge and years of experience (min 10) with a pay of $70k. Yea, thats BS. But people still need to apply for these positions. I had an interview that was looking for a Network Engineer.

I remember when I put in my resume (just graduated from college) in for this job that asked for 10 year experience. I didn't lie about my experience (I had none) but they wanted me in an interview regardless. I got the Job with just CCNA-level knowledge at the time, but all that fluff that recruiters put in that's not even relevant to the position, is BS. They Just need you to meet the standard of what that role required in the industry today.
 

Mesousa

Banned
Not just tech anymore, pretty much everyone knows the tricks now. Thats the real "they took our jerbs" shit. Its meant to be an avenue for the US to acquire people with skills not available in the US. Its awesome when its used for that. its shitty when its used to undercut the fair market rate for labor.

H1B needs to go.

Have these companies invest in the American workforce.
 

Nydius

Gold Member
As an aside, requirements for most IT jobs are a joke. I am not even in IT, but it amazes me how expectations can be ridiculously high for an entry-level IT help desk position.

My entire working career (outside of menial high school jobs, that is) has been in IT and you're quite right. I got my first IT job back in 1996 during my sophomore year in college. Today that job would be called "level 1 helpdesk", very entry level, slightly-above average knowledge of computers necessary but easy stuff to learn, really. I got that job based solely on the strength of my interview. The minimum requirements were high school diploma or GED with some college a bonus.

I noticed the job requirements for IT jobs really blew up after the dot-com bust. I watched entry level helpdesk jobs like the one I had gotten a mere 5 years prior require two year degrees and CompTIA certifications (A+, predominantly). This has gotten worse yearly. After the 2008 financial crash, these same Level 1 Helpdesk type job listings require 4 year degrees, industry certifications, and, often times, "experience preferred". Largely for salaries barely higher than what I was making back in 1998. Also, rampant abuse of H1B Visa programs seems to also coincide with both the dot-com bust and the 2008 financial crash.

I was fortunate enough to get in before this inflation but I look at the asking requirements for the job I've been doing for years (network engineer) and if I were going into the market directly I probably would have a difficult time being hired. I have the certifications and experience but I only have a 4 year degree - most newer network engineering job listings want Masters or better.

Alas, I'm existing as a contract worker, another level of bullshit in the tech industry that is fucking us all over but that's a different rant for a different topic.

E:
I'm a network Engineer (certified) with multiple certs from other areas of IT (VM, MCSE), and I know for a fact that I can go to glassdoor.com and find network engineer positions that ask for ridiculous knowledge and years of experience (min 10) with a pay of $70k. Yea, thats BS. But people still need to apply for these positions. I had an interview that was looking for a Network Engineer.

Hello fellow Network Engineer! Remember the days when having a BSCS or BSIT and MCSE or Cicso Certifications pretty much got you in the door anywhere? Those were the days. Now it's MSIT with every certification known to man plus 5+ years experience.

I'm so glad I spent time out of my life learning Novell Netware.
So, so glad. /s
 

Josh378

Member
Hello fellow Network Engineer! Remember the days when having a BSCS or BSIT and MCSE or Cicso Certifications pretty much got you in the door anywhere? Those were the days. Now it's MSIT with every certification known to man plus 5+ years experience.

I'm so glad I spent time out of my life learning Novell Netware.
So, so glad. /s

What pissed me off is that I didn't really want VM cert nor MCSE, and I thought CCNP and CCNA Security was enough to have ppl just look at my resume for a Network Engineer role. So, now after adding those certs (with real studying, not paper knowledge), its now able to get me to those interviews with the 100K+ pay, where I've had a few that listed they needed a MCSE and a VM cert as well as a CCNP, CCNA Wireless/Security and ended up having the entire interview just only on network knowledge and wanting to hire me on the spot.

This jumping hoop BS in the technology field is almost not worth it. Being loyal to a company that's at least decent is probable the way to go now.
 

malfcn

Member
Well that's what happens when every entry level job demands years of experience. You can't get the job without experience and you can't get the experience without a damn job.

Right?

Looking for entry level applicant with MBA, PhD, 32 years of experience and expert proficiency in every thing. Salary position, Minimum wage.

Okay.
 
As someone currently looking for my first job out of college with a master's degree, it's downright infuriating how many "entry level" jobs require 2+ years of experience on top of your education.
 

YourMaster

Member
So your proposed fix is to slap an employee leaving a company with a "training fee?" How would this be quantified? Would you be ok if you quit your current job, and you were charged $3,000 for "training?"

It doesn't work like that. You offer an employee a promotion, an require in return for this promotion training/education. How this is quantified is determined on the education you receive, a 3 your university-level course is more expensive than a 2 day in-house training course that doesn't provide a diploma of course. Say the cost of the training you follow is 3600$, and in return you have to stay for 3 years. For every month you stay after completing that training the company will subtract 100$ from your debt. However, if that promotion you receive also comes with a 300$ raise you'd be a fool not to accept it unless you plan on leaving soon.

Here in Europe this system isn't all that uncommon though. I received a job-offer where they demanded a 30,000€ in-house training (that would have lasted just a week), and I had to stay there for 3 years and I wasn't too sure about the job so I turned it down. My wife received what I believe was an 12000€ training that was recognized in her entire branch with a 2-year obligation to stay but she was bought away by another company that took over the 'debt'.

It really provides a save way for companies to train and invest in employees. Something that benefits everybody.

Yes, working conditions and creating a good environment is the most important thing. But I have seen people skipping jobs within a few months due to various reasons around me, and well... that is quite the waste of training and such on newcomers who were hired straight out of college. Can't blame a company for not wanting to do that too much.

Of course it also depends a bit on the size of the company. If you have actual training programs, your solution might work for some. But in most companies, the training is just being on the job and your manager or co-workers showing you the way for the first weeks or months.

I wouldn't call having a manager or co-worker showing you the ropes 'training' or 'education'. And yes, a new employee isn't as productive yet as somebody with a bit more experience, but this isn't the issue. It sucks for an employer to have a new employee bail after a few months, just as it sucks for an employee if he is fired/downsized shortly after taking his new job, especially if he left another job for it. But having 2 months experience at company x won't make me more desirable for company y, if anything they might be hesitant to accept such a job-hopper. That initial on the job training is most likely very specific and not worth anything to anybody else.
Investing in an employee is giving somebody with potential and some experience in your company the chance to grow. Send him to classes to become a manager, give him time to learn a new programming language and certification, teach him how to weld, send him to be educated in financial regulations, stuff like that makes the employee more valuable and allows him to do stuff he couldn't do without it. Those are the serious investments that would also open up new career prospects outside of the company and make it worth it to agree on some longer term commitment from both sides.

As someone currently looking for my first job out of college with a master's degree, it's downright infuriating how many "entry level" jobs require 2+ years of experience on top of your education.

Apply anyway. It's what they hope to get, not what they demand.
 
H1B needs to go.

Have these companies invest in the American workforce.

I agree. And I know I sound like a Trump supporter here, but being in tech I see first hand the abuse of the visas. There's no way to say it without sounding xenophobic: there are too many foreign people in tech. I want too see these jobs go to people in the US.

I grew up in a rural town, mostly white but a bit Latino, and I'm the ONLY person I know who made it in tech. I want to see these companies invest thier billions into helping the US workforce.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Not even pure greed because they would make more money by offering better wages for jobs.

It's all about selfishness.

Tragedy of the commons and all that.

Of course the other part of this is just like with the housing market, just because there's supply and demand doesn't mean that it's distributed evenly.
 
Not just tech anymore, pretty much everyone knows the tricks now. Thats the real "they took our jerbs" shit. Its meant to be an avenue for the US to acquire people with skills not available in the US. Its awesome when its used for that. its shitty when its used to undercut the fair market rate for labor.

Yup it's a much bigger problem than poor Mexicans coming over to do shit jobs for shit pay.

These are 60-120k jobs getting the salary cut by 2/3rds (not to mention is pushing others salary downwards).
 

Mesousa

Banned
I agree. And I know I sound like a Trump supporter here, but being in tech I see first hand the abuse of the visas. There's no way to say it without sounding xenophobic: there are too many foreign people in tech. I want too see these jobs go to people in the US.

I grew up in a rural town, mostly white but a bit Latino, and I'm the ONLY person I know who made it in tech. I want to see these companies invest thier billions into helping the US workforce.

My favorite is TCS. They straight up lie on H1B applications. Guys coming in with 10+ years experience in Java not knowing how to quickly import needed classes.

Any company which outsources development to them deserves what they get.

While I strongly agree with its intended purpose, yeah not sure how you'd stop abuse without removing it.

The intended purpose is bullshit in itself. There is no shortage of workers in America. If someone cant do the job, an investment should be made to train them.

Its all about exploitation of corporations.
 
My favorite is TCS. They straight up lie on H1B applications. Guys coming in with 10+ years experience in Java not knowing how to quickly import needed classes.

Any company which outsources development to them deserves what they get.

The intended purpose is bullshit in itself. There is no shortage of workers in America. If someone cant do the job, an investment should be made to train them.

Its all about exploitation of corporations.

The crazy part is some of these tech companies have so abused H1B that they have to also pay for outsourcing to middle men and project managers who can be the customer facing aspect of development. Their companies might as well not even have an American office anymore besides for a few execs.

Our company bills about 2k a month (for about 25 hours total of work) basically to put a white face and clean up grammar as the go between two companies and their customers. People like seeing my fake white Todd email signature when asking for clarification or feedback on an aspect of a project vs. Paandu (who actually knows wtf he is talking about).

No-one at our company knows jack shit about programming/coding etc, but every day we either get bitched at or thanked for "our work".
 

Mesousa

Banned
The crazy part is some of these tech companies have so abused H1B that they have to also pay for outsourcing to middle men and project managers who can be the customer facing aspect of development. Their companies might as well not even have an American office anymore besides for a few execs.

Our company bills about 2k a month (for about 25 hours total of work) basically to put a white face and clean up grammar as the go between two companies and their customers. People like seeing my fake white Todd email signature when asking for clarification or feedback on an aspect of a project vs. Paandu (who actually knows wtf he is talking about).

No-one at our company knows jack shit about programming/coding etc, but every day we either get bitched at or thanked for "our work".

Lol add a "Make sure you do the needful" from H1B management and you have pretty much summed up my experiences.
 
My favorite is TCS. They straight up lie on H1B applications. Guys coming in with 10+ years experience in Java not knowing how to quickly import needed classes.

Any company which outsources development to them deserves what they get.



The intended purpose is bullshit in itself. There is no shortage of workers in America. If someone cant do the job, an investment should be made to train them.

Its all about exploitation of corporations.

I agree. They want cheap labor. There are plenty of people out there ready to go. Especially in the tech sector.
 

Gridman

Neo Member
Wow then I'm really screwed. I couldn't afford to finish my bachelor's in Computer Science and had to quit school with a year left. I finished all the major related courses with only a few Gen Ed classes remaining. I'm very good at what I do. Sheetz (East Coast gas and convenience store company) was hiring for an Associate Programmer position back in February. Experience preferred but not required; but bachelor's in CS was required. I applied anyway. I got as far as a phone interview and they wouldn't even listen once I stated my situation. I didn't lie on my resume and THEY called me. The same position went up again last month so I applied again with an improved resume. Only two days later I got an email that they didn't want me. I have a feeling I could know every programming language in the world and still couldn't get my foot in the door until I can afford to finish that degree.
 

SRG01

Member
This is hardly something exclusive to America, though. My girlfriend works at one of Europe's largest car manufacturers and they were demanding engineers to cover line monkey jobs.

She's a trained accountant working on the production side as a low level manager. She recently tried to promote and found out that she couldn't, because her qualifications are not good enough to do what amounts to filling up Excel files and talking to local suppliers to check their inventories. They also want engineers for that.

Also, new hires are earning around €1 000/month. That also goes for the engineers.

It's pure fucking lunacy.

Interestingly enough, Canada is moving in the opposite direction. Many companies don't want to hire engineers to be operators, so they want to hire two/three year college students instead of university grads.

The weird part? Many of our college degrees have higher entrance requirements (edit: and harder curriculums) than most university programs.
 
I remember I asked my friend who has been working as a dev for almost 20 years about the crazy disparate qualifications that some companies would put out in want web dev want ads and he told me it is mostly due to an ignorant HR department. When attempting to fill an open position they will often dig out resumes of previous employees who held the position and look at the different skills they noted in their applications. So you got one person who maybe took a course in .NET a few years ago slap it on their resume to make them look more knowledgeable and another who puts they are fluent in Rails and Java but in reality their entire code base is entirely PHP. But the hiring HR person clearly has no idea that none of those other skills are even needed.
 

Condom

Member
This is hardly something exclusive to America, though. My girlfriend works at one of Europe's largest car manufacturers and they were demanding engineers to cover line monkey jobs.

She's a trained accountant working on the production side as a low level manager. She recently tried to promote and found out that she couldn't, because her qualifications are not good enough to do what amounts to filling up Excel files and talking to local suppliers to check their inventories. They also want engineers for that.

Also, new hires are earning around €1 000/month. That also goes for the engineers.

It's pure fucking lunacy.
€1000,- for an engineer is so low that I doubt any actually work there beyond very desperate graduates. My friend went to Switzerland and is earning 100k+ a year without bonus.
 

Makai

Member
H1B needs to go.

Have these companies invest in the American workforce.
Bringing in a lot of highly skilled foreigners is great for America, especially if we give them permanent residence. I've even worked for two companies founded by former guest workers.
 

devilhawk

Member
Require the employer to pay at least 25% over market costs for similar positions. (Raw salary, but if applicable moving/training/housing/legal costs may be included).
While I can't say what the specific percentage should be, I think it should be a tariff or import tax, in sense. Where you pay a fee every year for that worker that makes the salary plus fee higher than the average salary for a standard worker. I know there are H1B fees, but they amount to a nothing one-time fee.

I think it makes sense. If the H1B worker is so valuable; you will pay more to get them in. Even open up the total number of visas.
 

Pixels

Member
Beyond H1B, what blows my mind is tech recruiting companies. If I accept a contract that a recruiting company negotiated for $90k the recruiter also gets $90k. What?! Why can't you just hire me full time then?!
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Beyond H1B, what blows my mind is tech recruiting companies. If I accept a contract that a recruiting company negotiated for $90k the recruiter also gets $90k. What?! Why can't you just hire me full time then?!

Being a recruiter looks more appealing in that situation.
 

pirata

Member
Fuck you employers and your post recession employers' market bullshit fleecing of employees.

I hope these fucking cunts get a karmic slap in the face. They are basically stifling an already debt burdened, highly credentialed generation by being petty penny pinches who are horrified to admit that Millennials are actually much more qualified than they ever were when they first entered the work force.

Karma won't slap them in the face. We the people have to organize and slap them.
 
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