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[MiniBossBattle]

Oddly enough, a very similar thing happened to me. I went to pick up my cap and gown from the school office and the associate Dean refused to give them to me until I shaved. And he meant that very minute. He gave me a can of shaving cream and a razor. When I ducked into the restroom to shave, lo and behold, there were several other guys shaving. And I had just a couple patchy wisps of facial hair, less than the guy in the OP.

Pretty much the same for me. Because I was an Honor student, they made us shave and be more presentable since we were called up together later for our accomplishments. This actually gave my parents ammunition to force me to shave. I did it a day ahead because of photos.

 

[RockTurtle]

What? New Age?

No seriously... what?

A rule is arbitrary, stupid and useless, if it's there without a good, rational reason to exist. A rule about being respectful of other students and not punching them has a good reason to exist. A rule about not showing up naked at school, and wearing clean clothes, has a good, rational reason to exist.
A rule about preventing hair stubble on some guy's chin doesn't. Or maybe you can come up with a rational reason for such a rule to exist.

i WANT to say the rule comes about from appearing as clean cut and professional as possible, akin to having well brushed hair etc.

given that teenagers are still in the growing phase and their hair comes in patches, it might give it a rough look, and an uniform cut might not be possible to achieve. Much easier to just chop it all off.

also, and the more likely explanation in my opinion and from what i am studying this semester as part of my masters (school health), kids are not the most hygienic when it comes to regular grooming.

and when you have administration and upper management doing random checkups, you don't want your student body looking scrungy. more of a cover my ass thing at that point.

but again, it could also just be a regional thing or cultural aspect for that area.

 

[Jonm1010]

What? New Age?

No seriously... what?

A rule is arbitrary, stupid and useless, if it's there without a good, rational reason to exist. A rule about being respectful of other students and not punching them has a good reason to exist. A rule about not showing up naked at school, and wearing clean clothes, has a good, rational reason to exist.
A rule about preventing hair stubble on some guy's chin doesn't. Or maybe you can come up with a rational reason for such a rule to exist.


Good question.

No, you explain. Why should I argue something I don't believe in? Waste of time.

Feel free to start delving into the morass that is dress code policy, hope you have access to academic journals to read the sources:
http://www.aallnet.org/mm/Publications/llj/LLJ-Archives/Vol-94/pub_llj_v94n01/2002-03.pdf
http://www.nesl.edu/research/rsguides/anthony_scibetta.html
http://education.findlaw.com/student-rights/school-dress-codes.html

You're naive if you don't think a policy like this doesnt have some sort of rationale for existence(even if it is a bad one), the problem you are introducing is that you are basically arguing that if a person perceives something to be useless and arbitrary then they have a right to ignore it in a nonpublic forum like a school without consequence until it can be proven to them it should exist. Which should be pretty obvious as to why that becomes problematic when trying to run an organization like a school.

How about voting and then joining in on local school board meetings where possible and make the case so stupid policies don't become the rules of the land so to speak.

 

[Iorv3th]

Pretty much the same for me. Because I was an Honor student, they made us shave and be more presentable since we were called up together later for our accomplishments. This actually gave my parents ammunition to force me to shave. I did it a day ahead because of photos.

I remember people showing up to school with facial hair being sent to the deans office and having to shave while at school because it was against the dress code.

Though I do remember playing basketball against another school in 8th grade and they had a kid with a mustache.

Spoiler

he was mexican

 

[Morrigan Stark]

i WANT to say the rule comes about from appearing as clean cut and professional as possible, akin to having well brushed hair etc.

Yeah and it's BS too. Do they police the quality of the hair of everyone? If you're a girl with long hair and there are knots in it or it's kind of greasy looking, do they react? I doubt it.

also, and the more likely explanation in my opinion and from what i am studying this semester as part of my masters (school health), kids are not the most hygienic when it comes to regular grooming.

This kid looks fine to me. Hygiene was clearly not the issue here.

You're naive if you don't think a policy like this doesnt have some sort of rationale for existence(even if it is a bad one),

"Rationale" != "rational"

the problem you are introducing is that you are basically arguing that if a person perceives something to be useless and arbitrary then they have a right to ignore it in a nonpublic forum like a school without consequence until it can be proven to them it should exist. Which should be pretty obvious as to why that becomes problematic when trying to run an organization like a school.

Why yes, I do think civil disobedience to resist idiotic rules is a good idea, actually.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I remember people showing up to school with facial hair being sent to the deans office and having to shave while at school because it was against the dress code.

If you only knew the wispy peachfuzz facial hair that grew in highschool. My favorite is my friend that took the entire spring break only to look like he grew a reverse hitler mustache(everything but the middle grew). Another looked like a 140 lb paul bunyun. They all got sent to be shaved. Looking back, it looked gross. Thank god we didn't have cell phones with cameras.

edit; don't google "high school mustache". Stuff gave me flashbacks.

 

[RockTurtle]

Yeah and it's BS too. Do they police the quality of the hair of everyone? If you're a girl with long hair and there are knots in it or it's kind of greasy looking, do they react? I doubt it.


This kid looks fine to me. Hygiene was clearly not the issue here.

i understand that. but unless you went to that specific school, i don't know if it's fair to assume that he is not an exception to the usual reason why the rules are still upheld.

and given that it wasn't just that one student, but more than a handful i assume that YES they do the police the quality on a student body level (hence why 13 cut their hair prior to the graduation).

as for girls, i would have to read the dress code rules concerning girls in particular concerning those issues. that would depend on the individual schools and what the faculty or parents voted on.

 

[Jonm1010]

Yeah and it's BS too. Do they police the quality of the hair of everyone? If you're a girl with long hair and there are knots in it or it's kind of greasy looking, do they react? I doubt it.


This kid looks fine to me. Hygiene was clearly not the issue here.


"Rationale" != "rational"


Why yes, I do think civil disobedience to resist idiotic rules is a good idea, actually.

Again, in your world, how is order actually maintained in a nonpublic forum like a public school if any student can declare rules governing their behavior and presentation as arbitrary and refuse to adhere until said rules have been proven to be justified in the protestors mind without consequence? Who determines, ultimately, what is and is not rational?

You seem very short sighted with these hot takes you keep offering up.

As the link I provided you and you clearly ignored pointed you toward, there are numerous reasons for why dress codes are supported and enforced. The efficacy and justification for them are certainly in dispute but to act as if they are without a rational justification is just showing ignorance of the topic.

 

[Solid SOAP]

I just wanna go out on a limb and say that the condescending nature of those claiming that this situation CANNOT be anything other than racially targeted is unnecessary. There are valid points on both sides, and those who are simply trying to make the point that maybe he should've just followed the rules do not need to be demonized. The facts are all cut & dry: there's a racial makeup of over 80% African American students, various staff including those in high positions are black, and he didn't follow the damn rules. Was the rule stupid? Yes. Is it archaic? Yes. Did he follow the rule that literally every other student followed? Nope.

It's worth discussing without belittling those whose opinions don't line up 100% with yours.

 

[Skellig Gra]

If not the facial hair, the school would have found another reason not to let him get on stage.

Why exactly? What about the 350+ other black students he graduated with?

 

[Solid SOAP]

Why exactly? What about the 350+ other black students he graduated with?

Is there a way to access pictures of previous valedictorians from the school's history? With an 80+% black racial makeup, I find it hard to believe that this was the first year a black kid was the valedictorian.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Again, in your world, how is order actually maintained in a nonpublic forum like a public school if any student can declare rules governing their behavior and presentation as arbitrary and refuse to adhere until said rules have been proven to be justified in the protestors mind without consequence? Who determines, ultimately, what is and is not rational?

Sounds like sophistry to me. There is nothing wrong with protesting nonsensical rules, it's how you create change. The alternative of shutting up and obeying every rule ever isn't any better just because it's "more orderly".

As the link I provided you and you clearly ignored pointed you toward, there are numerous reasons for why dress codes are supported and enforced. The efficacy and justification for them are certainly in dispute but to act as if they are without a rational justification is just showing ignorance of the topic.

I ignored them because they seemed to be retaliating against a stramwan. I never said all dress codes are dumb and there shouldn't be any dress code ever. Not all dress codes are created equal. Having rules about teenage facial hair is excessively dumb, though.

 

[SecretDan]

If not the facial hair, the school would have found another reason not to let him get on stage.

Good lord. Read the thread.

 

[akira28]

Why exactly? What about the 350+ other black students he graduated with?

you keep working to disarm the racial component but the bottom line is you posted the picture of some disciplinarian, and I posted a picture of the man who personally told him to go shave or not be able to go on stage or be valedictorian.

 

[Mr. X]

They could argue that it's discriminatory.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=15419717270098274681

And the student says they (the superintendent? of the district who enforced the rule on his graduating class) didn't do it to the schools that graduated before his. So yeah, unless there were black valedictorian at the other schools, I'm saying selective.

 

[Skellig Gra]

you keep working to disarm the racial component but the bottom line is you posted the picture of some disciplinarian, and I posted a picture of the man who personally told him to go shave or not be able to go on stage or be valedictorian.

You are the only one who has made even a remote attempt to back up racial allegations. It does a disservice to people actually suffering under institutional racism to pull that card whenever something happens to a black person regardless of the circumstances.

 

[norm9]

you keep working to disarm the racial component but the bottom line is you posted the picture of some disciplinarian, and I posted a picture of the man who personally told him to go shave or not be able to go on stage or be valedictorian.

That picture is definitely a white guy. Beyond that...

 

[RockTurtle]

you keep working to disarm the racial component but the bottom line is you posted the picture of some disciplinarian, and I posted a picture of the man who personally told him to go shave or not be able to go on stage or be valedictorian.

are you implying students can only be disciplined by faculty of the same race? that for this particular reason a white faculty member disciplining a black student is automatically suspect? sorry i'm not following

 

[CornBurrito]

What? New Age?

No seriously... what?

A rule is arbitrary, stupid and useless, if it's there without a good, rational reason to exist. A rule about being respectful of other students and not punching them has a good reason to exist. A rule about not showing up naked at school, and wearing clean clothes, has a good, rational reason to exist.
A rule about preventing hair stubble on some guy's chin doesn't. Or maybe you can come up with a rational reason for such a rule to exist.


Good question.

No, you explain. Why should I argue something I don't believe in? Waste of time.

Well good luck interviewing in boxer briefs and a wife-beater.

You live in a society that has arbitrary rules. Clothes matter. Clothing choice matters. Appearance matters.

Also lol. What is the rationality behind not allowing nudity? There are nudist societies on this planet. Clothes aren't needed.

 

[akira28]

You are the only one who has made even a remote attempt to back up racial allegations. It does a disservice to people actually suffering under institutional racism to pull that card whenever something happens to a black person regardless of the circumstances.

well I'm sorry that your vanguard duty to police when people can see and claim institutional racism has been in vain, because this particular superintendent has been in the middle of an institutional racism issue maybe the entirety of his career.

are you trying to curate or cultivate 'true racism'? are you trying to conserve the use of "the card" for only the most purest forms of racism, undeniable and blatant. So that only certain things can be challenged, nothing else can even be suspect, because people "use the card too much"?

Superintendent Mark Kolwe pulled 13 young black men aside and told them even though they had been allowed to keep their beards all while they had been at school, in order to walk on stage they must shave. The ones who didn't he actually told to go to the bathroom or else. The valedictorian stood up to this, why? He thought it was unfair. He was thinkin for some dumb reason. Anyway, he didn't "follow orders", so he didn't get to "march", according to Mr. Kolwe. Some think its bullshit. He also mentioned that he's going to personally speak with the school staff that allowed these young men to flout his policy.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Well good luck interviewing in boxer briefs and a wife-beater.

You live in a society that has arbitrary rules. Clothes matter. Clothing choice matters. Appearance matters.

Also lol. What is the rationality behind not allowing nudity? There are nudist societies on this planet. Clothes aren't needed.

Come on, are you serious now? Nudity in school would be incredibly distracting and disruptive of a learning environment, whereas stubble on some teenage boy obviously isn't. And to compare that with rare niche communities like nudist societies... you aren't arguing in good faith right now.

 

[norm9]

Reading the article, it's clear the school should have not been letting kids have facial hair the whole year, because now you have a student who was given an exception to the rule saying it's unfair now that he's gotta shave.

 

[akira28]

well good, at least now you're on the level of understanding of Superintendent Clue who looks like the main source of all this trouble.

 

[Kusagari]

I remember that my middle school tried to institute a uniform policy one year. Literally 80%+ of the school refused to follow it and they eventually gave up since a school with no students isn't very conducive.

 

[perineumlick]

The article answers exactly that question.

No it does not. They gave no explanation why it wasn't enforced during the year.

 

[Skellig Gra]

well I'm sorry that your vanguard duty to police when people can see and claim institutional racism has been in vain, because this particular superintendent has been in the middle of an institutional racism issue maybe the entirety of his career.

are you trying to curate or cultivate 'true racism'? are you trying to conserve the use of "the card" for only the most purest forms of racism, undeniable and blatant. So that only certain things can be challenged, nothing else can even be suspect, because people "use the card too much"?

Superintendent Mark Kolwe pulled 13 young black men aside and told them even though they had been allowed to keep their beards all while they had been at school, in order to walk on stage they must shave. The ones who didn't he actually told to go to the bathroom or else. The valedictorian stood up to this, why? He thought it was unfair. He was thinkin for some dumb reason. Anyway, he didn't "follow orders", so he didn't get to "march", according to Mr. Kolwe. Some think its bullshit. He also mentioned that he's going to personally speak with the school staff that allowed these young men to flout his policy.

I'm merely suggesting this community should strive for better than drive by posting always assuming it's racism without examining the facts of each situation. Do a lot of police officers and the like deserve the benefit of the doubt after centuries of oppression? Probably not.

 

[LionPride]

I remember that my middle school tried to institute a uniform policy one year. Literally 80%+ of the school refused to follow it and they eventually gave up since a school with no students isn't very conducive.

My school has a dress code, we don't follow it at all. A few teachers decide to get on people but no one really followed it. Now after years of complaints, no dress code really

 

[RockTurtle]

No it does not. They gave no explanation why it wasn't enforced during the year.

i don't know why the principal did not enforce the rules during the year, and the superintendent didn't provide a reason why either, however

Kolwe told ABC News the others “took care of what they had to do and marched,” but Jones did not.

“Our school board has a policy that does not allow any facial hair on male students,” he told ABC News, adding: “I personally asked him to please go and shave so that he can walk with the other kids. He chose not to.”

“I even asked the parents standing here to have him follow the policy.”

“The board has a policy and we have to adhere to the policy until it gets changed,” Kolwe told ABC News. “Until it changes, I’m responsible for following it.”

if there is someone who i expect to follow the rules given BY THE BOARD, it would be the superintendent of all people.

while the principal of the school might have overlooked things, the superintendent's presence alone meant that certain leeway's would probably not fly under his direct supervision.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I've never been to or seen a high school where there weren't dudes with facial hair.

School dress codes are so fucking arbitrary

 

[YoYo Switch]

Another embarrassing thread

 

[Jonm1010]

Sounds like sophistry to me. There is nothing wrong with protesting nonsensical rules, it's how you create change. The alternative of shutting up and obeying every rule ever isn't any better just because it's "more orderly".


I ignored them because they seemed to be retaliating against a stramwan. I never said all dress codes are dumb and there shouldn't be any dress code ever. Not all dress codes are created equal. Having rules about teenage facial hair is excessively dumb, though.

You continue to infer that general school rules should be violated without consequence if they are dumb/non-sensical. To which you REFUSE to answer who is the arbiter of making that judgement. Your responses imply the student is left to make that judgement to which you then REFUSE to answer how such a system like that can effectively function?

We have a process for addressing these grievances in America. It is called the ballot box. Either through direct election or by electing officials who make the appointees who draft these rules. By all means if this student feels passionate about it go out in your free time and lobby the school board to drop the policy. Vote for school board members that will fight for your policy. But this notion that a student, attending a High School, should just be given free reign to ignore rules they don't think are rational is so obviously problematic that it is amusing to see you continue to defend it.

 

[akira28]

are you wearing a flag around your shoulders right now?

'we have a process...vote' come on

 

[Jonm1010]

are you wearing a flag around your shoulders right now?

'we have a process...vote' come on

Then I will extend the question to you, how do you propose we re-organize the system so that students can be given free reign to disregard the rules they deem dumb or irrational without consequence and not jeopardize the integrity and stability of the public education system in a given district?

The ugly side to democracy and local governance like this is that often arbitrary and dumb rules find their way codified into the system. That institutions like the public school system needs a form of order, structure and consistency to maintain its functionality and effectiveness which is going to inevitably create a give and take of control and freedom.

 

[K.Jack]

I dunno, why fall on that sword? He wasn't the only one asked to shave either.

You choose taking a stand for a goatee, over getting to make your Valedictorian speech, and having your family see you graduate?

Dude was a straight fool for that. It's indefensible, in my view.

 

[Voidance]

I get that the rule was stupid, but it doesn't seem as though it sprung on the students at the last minute -- the school's expectations were communicated beforehand.

What I find just as preposterous is the necessity of a fucking prayer in a public school. If the event absolutely calls for one, do that shit somewhere else like in your house before you leave to go graduate.

 

[Fusebox]

I'm torn on this one. I believe in standing up for your rights and being a principled person, but that's just a shitty bit of facial hair, it doesn't define him, it doesn't even look good. I don't think that's a battle I would have chosen.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

I get that the rule was stupid, but it doesn't seem as though it sprung on the students at the last minute -- the school's expectations were communicated beforehand.

What I find just as preposterous is the necessity of a fucking prayer in a public school. If the event absolutely calls for one, do that shit somewhere else like in your house before you leave to go graduate.

It's the south and I imagine religion is a big thing among the black community down there.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I don't know of any job outside of the military or other hazardous work that requires a man to be clean shaven. Everything from finance to tech to the arts, even doctors and surgeons are able to have full beards. Not allowing them goes against the zeitgeist.

playing for the NY Yankees

 

[elrechazado]

I read the headline as "racial hair". Maybe I didn't misread it.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

A lot of public schools have similar rules in place, although how strictly they enforce the rules can be inconsistent.

My high school was actually pretty damn picky about stuff like this. For facial hair you would get one day warning and if they saw you the next day they would actually force you into a bathroom, give you a fucking used razor, and make you shave right there under the threat of suspension if you refused.

I also remember an incident where a guy was sent home for having a French Connection UK t-shirt. Heh....

 

[x-Lundz-x]

I read the headline as "racial hair". Maybe I didn't misread it.

You most certainly didn't read the article or the thread that's for sure.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

To which you REFUSE to answer [...] you then REFUSE to answer

Jesus, dramatic much?

Sorry I mean, DRAMATIC much? xD Anyway,

You continue to infer that general school rules should be violated without consequence if they are dumb/non-sensical. To which you REFUSE to answer who is the arbiter of making that judgement. Your responses imply the student is left to make that judgement to which you then REFUSE to answer how such a system like that can effectively function?

It's actually really simple; if the student is not hurting or harming anyone, and is not being disruptive in any way, then who the hell cares? Don't punish the kids if they aren't being harmful and/or disruptive and get rid of the rule or re-write it accordingly.

And you know what, the school, in a way, agrees with me, because they let him get away with his facial hair all year and there was not a peep, and it's only at the end of the year that they decided to be a stickler for their precious rules. Clearly it's not disruptive or harmful and they don't actually care.

 

[Jonm1010]

Jesus, dramatic much?

Sorry I mean, DRAMATIC much? xD Anyway,


It's actually really simple; if the student is not hurting or harming anyone, and is not being disruptive in any way, then who the hell cares? Don't punish the kids if they aren't being harmful and/or disruptive and get rid of the rule or re-write it accordingly.

And you know what, the school, in a way, agrees with me, because they let him get away with his facial hair all year and there was not a peep, and it's only at the end of the year that they decided to be a stickler for their precious rules. Clearly it's not disruptive or harmful and they don't actually care.

No drama, just frustration at you continually evading my questions and talking around my posts.

Who or how is it decided what gets delegated as disruptive or harmful? Or not harmful for that matter?

You keep asserting everything is so obvious and simple, yet, 4 times now, you can't give me a straight answer about who or how these determinations are made.

 

[Iorv3th]

Jesus, dramatic much?

Sorry I mean, DRAMATIC much? xD Anyway,


It's actually really simple; if the student is not hurting or harming anyone, and is not being disruptive in any way, then who the hell cares? Don't punish the kids if they aren't being harmful and/or disruptive and get rid of the rule or re-write it accordingly.

And you know what, the school, in a way, agrees with me, because they let him get away with his facial hair all year and there was not a peep, and it's only at the end of the year that they decided to be a stickler for their precious rules. Clearly it's not disruptive or harmful and they don't actually care.

What if it harms the confidence level of other high schoolers that cant grow facial hair?

 

[Einchy]

My school had similar rules against facial hair and long hair on males. There was this guy with a beard that looked like it belong to a Viking and I was the only kid in school with long hair, none of the teachers ever gave a up.

Never understood why that was a rule, who thought of it or why they never bothered to enforce it.

 

[perineumlick]

If it's true that, according to his assertion, other schools in the district let kids graduate with facial hair, then I can see that being a sticking point for him, and a possible reason why he didn't want to shave. That info was sort of glossed over in the article. Someone earlier mentioned in this thread that they saw a post on Facebook showing kids from another school in that district graduating with facial hair.

 

[Ludovico]

Jesus, dramatic much?

It's actually really simple; if the student is not hurting or harming anyone, and is not being disruptive in any way, then who the hell cares? Don't punish the kids if they aren't being harmful and/or disruptive and get rid of the rule or re-write it accordingly.

You're right - on a day-to-day basis, no teacher is going to waste their time policing facial hair that's not a distraction. Same with the majority of administration.

But when you host a graduation, and are spending tons of hours and money on a ceremony that will be attended by alumni, board members, feeder-school admins, director of high-schools, not to mention the parents and families, etc...yeah, I can imagine the students are held to a higher standard if just for one evening.

Personal Anecdote - the Superintendent of schools is NOT checking students as they enter and prepare for the walk. At graduation two weeks ago, I saw a student kept out of the gate because he didn't have a tie. A teacher brought extras because even though students are given instructions well in advance, and conduct and actual rehearsal, you can still count on students to forget stuff or try bringing in contraband.

I can only assume, but I'd put money on more than one teacher at that school giving the VALEDICTORIAN a heads up on them having to enforce the facial hair rule at graduation. 14 students understood (begrudgingly or not, who knows), that even though some rules suck, breaking them still brings consequences.

 

[Jonm1010]

If it's true that, according to his assertion, other schools in the district let kids graduate with facial hair, then I can see that being a sticking point for him, and a possible reason why he didn't want to shave. That info was sort of glossed over in the article. Someone earlier mentioned in this thread that they saw a post on Facebook showing kids from another school in that district graduating with facial hair.

He certainly has a case that the rules are not being applied consistently. However, its like saying "you've let us stay on the swing set 2 minutes past recess every day except today...And that other school lets people stay 4 minutes past recess time!"

Yeah, sure, they have, but that doesnt magically change the rules or make you unaccountable to them when they are enforced to the standard.

 

[perineumlick]

He certainly has a case that the rules are not being applied consistently. However, its like saying "you've let us stay on the swing set 2 minutes past recess every day except today...And that other school lets people stay 4 minutes past recess time!"

Yeah, sure, they have, but that doesnt magically change the rules or make you unaccountable to them when they are enforced to the standard.

Lol, no it is not as trivial as something like that. Come on, son.

 

[Jonm1010]

Lol, no it is not as trivial as something like that. Come on, son.

The example being used is not the point of that post.

Swap out recess for wearing off color uniform pants, leggings, or multiple ear piercings on guys or girls. Or anything that is possibly codified into district/parish rules. The point still stands.

EDIT: Also don't start with the "c'mon son" bullshit. If you want to have a civil, adult conversation, try not inferring a person is dumb. Its a bit rude TBH.