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Vulture: E-mail chain between Tilda Swinton and Margaret Cho on Dr. Strange casting
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The main thing here, and I think the inly point everyone universally agrees, is that it was clear from the first email Tilda wanted a private conversation, Cho agreed to it, and then used it against TIlda. That in isolation clearly shows Cho was kind of an asshole.
The second point is that Tilda, in the first email, made sure to give Cho total freedom to not engage or respond or anything, just tell her to fuck off and thats it, conversation over. If Cho engaed, was because she wanted to engage and give her opinion on the issue. Again, to use the fact that Tilda was reaching out against her after accepting the discourse was scummy.
Now, the actual points made are colored by the above points, but onto themselves they fall into 2 main arguements:
1 - when a person wants to understand more about how the minority experience is, is there a way to adress it that wont offend a person of said minority?
2 - when a minority person is approached by a white person to talk about race, or when race comes up in conversation, how can the line be drawn between them giving their opinion vs them feeling like they are representing the race? It seems here Tilda was asking for CHo's opinion no the backlash, not asking for validation.. Where is the line that says Cho's interpretation and what Tilda meant are two different things?
Swinton's mails very much read like "Just asking questions", "Well, actually..." and "some of my best friends are asian/I make movies with asians".
You can't castigate people for not taking minority experiences into account and then be angry when they want to ask questions of the person they know who has lived those experiences. Margaret Cho makes her living as an interrogator of racism in our culture, why shouldn't someone who has questions about those issues want to get her opinion?
Irobot82
Member
I guess I don't know enough about Dr. Strange comics,but why is mystic arts or magic seemingly Asian culture? Wasn't one of the pillars in London? I think of ancient England as where wizards and Dragons lived from stories as a kid. The ancient one in the movie was from there. The Hong Kong leader was Asian, I don't remember who the New York leader was.
Monocle
Member
She's the best part of the movie. And it's a good movie.Tilda Swinton keeps being one of my favorite persons ever, had no idea she was in Dr Strange so now I will watch the movie
Sounds like projection. I'm not sure she could have phrased her messages in a way that wouldn't set off people who are primed to find fault in a certain type of person trying to discuss a certain type of subject. She bent over backwards to be respectful and she still got raked over the coals.
Saint Gregory
Member
The New York leader was African.
Overall even though I was upset with what I saw as whitewashing when the casting was announced I think Marvel did a great job with Doctor Strange and Tilda was fantastic. Marvel films in general have been very progressive with casting so it's hard to call them out on a single character.
Oppo
Member
No, what Cho wanted was not really for Swinton to "get it", she essentially wanted her to quit the role. Cho didn't even bother looking up what the role was.
I think they care about receiving criticism for racist stereotypes and also that they wanted to have the movie shown in China.
I believe there were multiple motivations to the casting choice.
Er, whitewashing has been the far more prominent issue in movies recently. Obviously, money means pleasing the Chinese public and using a wellknown white actress moat of the time. Asian Americans are a tiny minority.　Hence Hollywood not caring.
Where is the point where she bent over backwards to be respectful?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Well; at the very least I have to agree with Swinton that the mature character being a woman, who is older, non-sexualized, without a cliche personality, and is also the most bad-assed force in the story, is genuinely significant. It really did elevate the movie a bit IMO.
Monocle
Member
The entire first message?
HellforLeather
Member
This whole discussion ends up as a snake eating itself every time. You would think that Tilda Swintons choice would be a victory for the diversity proponents for all the reasons that Kai Dracon listed, but there is ALWAYS a group out there that says "well why wasnt a ::insert nationality/race:: ::insert gender:: cast for that part?" There is no pleasing people in this regard.
Also its quite hilarious that Swinton reaches out to have a discussion about this issue and try to move the conversation forward in a meaningful way only to have Cho totally characterize the whole exchange as Swington using Cho as a "house asian".
"Asian actors should play Asian roles" is another choice quote by Cho. So Im going to assume by that logic that she must have a problem with shows like Hamilton?
This is what the exchange sounds like.
Sounds like Swinton understands Cho's frustrations which is why she approached her in the first place.
Cho just wanted to use her as a punching bag for the frustrations of Asians in Hollywood after the fact.
What shows like Hamilton? Are white people suffering from a lack of representation on Broadway or in Hollywood? You think the two situations are equivalent?
Where are you getting the ALWAYS a group out there doing this? White male actors seem to be doing well with the roles they get in Hollywood.
And for all those who are saying Marvel has progressive movie castings, how many movies have we gone through with white male leads until we get our first minority lead? I mean, I like Marvel movies too, but let's not hold them up to be a bastion of progressiveness that is championing diversity.
Saint Gregory
Member
In the same Hollywood where atrocities like Gods of Egypt and Exodus:G&K can happen Marvel movies do seem like shining bastions. It took forever for the Marvel comics to have more diversity amongst their primary pantheon of heroes so I never really expected them to start the MCU with the modern takes on them. I'm really happy with the vast majority of choices the MCU has made with both casting and depictions of PoC and women in their films which is hard for me to say about any other major studio/franchise right now.
She "just wanted to listen".
In the second mail she made clear that this isn't the case.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
More white women isn't the end-all and be-all of diversity.
I sort of get both perspectives. I think Cho should have been more honest upfront and called Swinton out on wanting absolution for taking on this role without understanding the ramifications behind it, but on the other hand she probably felt pressured to put on a facade in order to not come across as hostile and "non-constructive", even though explaining this shit is probably tiring as hell by now.
EatinOlives
Member
If Cho hadn't engaged, we would've been seeing a parade of "well how are race relations gonna get better if the minorities don't engage!!" instead.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't...
Damned if you do and damned if you don't...
nope, we never would have heard about this since cho is the one that brought it up
Krauser Kat
Member
Tilda is like. i understand white washing is a thing. Its a thing im perpetuating by taking this role. Can i talk to you so i feel better because i did a bullshit token grab at equality.
Cho vented in a kind of safe place to another asian about dumb white people trying to feel better about doing dumb shit. Like white washing a movie. People of color have no responsibility to make others feel comfortable after doing dumb things.
http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/?id=977676980
i think this episode of Another Round is the best discussion on this whole thing.
That was the case with the role anyway.
Cast Asian in Asian stereotype role, brings up issues.
Don't cast Asian in the Asian stereotype role, brings different issues.
Its a lose lose in all cases. Then the would have been major issues if the role was still Tibetan.
Personally I think it should have been kept the way it was in the books, an old Tibetan Asian dude
excelsiorlef
Member
It definitely comes off as wanting an Asian woman to tell her that everything is ok.
I mean she immediately jumps to defend Marvel's decision and try to explain why what they did was actually better than casting an Asian woman or man.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Or, you know, Asian in non-stereotypical Asian role.
HellforLeather
Member
What I mean is that going by her logic, that only people of the same ethic origin can only play characters of the same origin, then thats an argument against plays like Hamilton (Which Ive been told is amazing largely because it bucks this type of thinking).
Never said they were, you are missing the point.
How do you do the Ancient One that isnt a stereotype? You'd have to remove most of what the character is and also the Tibetan part(which was done anyway).
No need to make it a stereotype no matter how lousy the original material is.
The Tibetan is problematic is a asspull.
Shadowhelper
Banned
It's a movie that plays of the Asian culture, but only has a single token Asian. That's the problem.
The Ancient on in the movie was not a moustache twirling villain, could've been played by an Asian and not been offensive, easily.
Why is Chiwetel Ejiofor in this and not an Asian actor in that role? He was also in the Martian playing a character that was Asian in the book. I find it kinda racist, how Hollywood thinks adding a black person in anything is the end all for diversity.
The Ancient on in the movie was not a moustache twirling villain, could've been played by an Asian and not been offensive, easily.
Why is Chiwetel Ejiofor in this and not an Asian actor in that role? He was also in the Martian playing a character that was Asian in the book. I find it kinda racist, how Hollywood thinks adding a black person in anything is the end all for diversity.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
My point is that giving a white woman the role of an Asian character is not a "victory" for diversity. Exclusion and whitewashing should never be.
Adam_Vania
Banned
this is my stance. i really don't buy that they were unable to write a decent role excuse. greed won and that seems like most of the story. everything else, including initiating this exchange, is weak ass-covering.
im with Cho here. seems like a really weird thing to do, just email this person at random, like she is a representative of all asians everywhere. is the role problematic? you can rewrite it to not be.
Zoe
Member
All of my outspoken activist friends are cheering Margaret Cho on even after the emails came out, but I just can't see it. I don't see anything wrong with what Tilda Swinton did or said.
The only reason he's in The Martian is because he was cast at the last minute due to the Indian actor's schedule not working out. They still made the character half-Indian.
It wasn't random. Cho was leading the protest on social media.
The only reason he's in The Martian is because he was cast at the last minute due to the Indian actor's schedule not working out. They still made the character half-Indian.
It wasn't random. Cho was leading the protest on social media.
Well, you can definitely be happy that they are making progress, but for myself, I am not satisfied yet because they are still lacking. Headed in the right direction, but they still need to work harder. I think they dropped the ball with Dr. Strange and should not be patted on the back for it.
HellforLeather
Member
As others have said, then people would probably claim that its the typical "asian mystic" trope. The creators recognized this and went as far away from that as possible and its still an issue to some.
I don't think doing an Asian non-cliched version of the Ancient One is too hard, no. To think so points to a severe lack of imagination.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
You know what's a good way of fighting stereotypes?
You subvert them.
Making the Ancient One a woman instead of a man is a good step to take. But making her white instead of Asian is not.
For a movie about a guy who lacks perspective and imagination, the writers seem to fall into the same trap.
Yeah at the end of the day I don't know what Swinton expected from the exchange. To be told that she's not perpetuating white washing? Was there any way she would have ended that exchange with "You're right. It's bullshit. I can't leave/speak out about the role because of contracts, but if the same situation comes up again I will refuse and point them towards Asian actors who should be in the role instead."
The basis for the character is an old Tibetan mystic who teachs Strange. Give me an example of how you would do this without making it a completely different character.
Nobody forced marvel to choose to make a Doctor Strange movie. If they were so certain they couldn't write an Asian role to be played by an Asian performer, then they should not have done the film. If they never announced a film they don't feel they can make responsibly, nobody ever complains. Nobody ever has a problem. They never feel cornered and have to complain about how hard it is to be racially sensitive.
It wasn't a moral imperative. It wasn't an absolute necessity. It was a choice. Their choice. The fact that all involved keep trying to handwave after the fact with, "Well, but we didn't really have any choice but to cast a white lady," is insane. Every single choice along the way was their own. (Doctor Strange certainly is not that popular that the mainstream audiences were clamoring.)
If Tilda is so very, very concerned about there not being enough roles for Asian actors, she shouldn't have taken one. It's not a super hard concept. White lady wanting to absolve herself of guilt for doing something she seems to realize is wrong but still wanted to do anyway is sketchy as hell, no matter how politely phrased. She didn't approach it as "should I not take this role, is it actually offensive for me to do so" so much as "this is the role I'm in and here is why that's not a problem." She didn't really seem to be seeking answers so much as providing her own counterpoints.
A white woman talking over a woman of color when it comes to diversity, no matter how politely worded, isn't this great dialogue that people are portraying it as.
And the people saying that Cho could have just been direct and told her to fuck off seem to misunderstand a lot of the dynamics of entertainment. Getting hired for anything is largely about who you know and how much you play along. A much more successful white woman coming to any performer of color and asking for a lesson in tolerance would seldom get rejected, because that kind of rejection could cost people who already have trouble getting hired even more work. I'm honestly most surprised that Cho ever brought it up in a public space, although maybe she didn't think it would penetrate far beyond the podcast.
Yeah, but then she might have to say no to roles she wants to do and being denied access to parts is not something white performers are used to.
It wasn't a moral imperative. It wasn't an absolute necessity. It was a choice. Their choice. The fact that all involved keep trying to handwave after the fact with, "Well, but we didn't really have any choice but to cast a white lady," is insane. Every single choice along the way was their own. (Doctor Strange certainly is not that popular that the mainstream audiences were clamoring.)
If Tilda is so very, very concerned about there not being enough roles for Asian actors, she shouldn't have taken one. It's not a super hard concept. White lady wanting to absolve herself of guilt for doing something she seems to realize is wrong but still wanted to do anyway is sketchy as hell, no matter how politely phrased. She didn't approach it as "should I not take this role, is it actually offensive for me to do so" so much as "this is the role I'm in and here is why that's not a problem." She didn't really seem to be seeking answers so much as providing her own counterpoints.
A white woman talking over a woman of color when it comes to diversity, no matter how politely worded, isn't this great dialogue that people are portraying it as.
And the people saying that Cho could have just been direct and told her to fuck off seem to misunderstand a lot of the dynamics of entertainment. Getting hired for anything is largely about who you know and how much you play along. A much more successful white woman coming to any performer of color and asking for a lesson in tolerance would seldom get rejected, because that kind of rejection could cost people who already have trouble getting hired even more work. I'm honestly most surprised that Cho ever brought it up in a public space, although maybe she didn't think it would penetrate far beyond the podcast.
Yeah, but then she might have to say no to roles she wants to do and being denied access to parts is not something white performers are used to.
The Faceless Master
Member
no.
there is absolutely no way you can address it that isn't offensive.
the mere fact that you don't understand and have to ask questions is offensive.
and all the people that asked before you and all the people that will ask after you is a weight i shouldn't have to bear.
there is no line. you are always giving your own opinion and the opinion of the race as a whole simultaneously and the other person in the conversation will choose which of the two is acceptable to them after you say it.
Adam_Vania
Banned
im not convinced it's a bad thing to have a Tibetan as a mystic. if it is part of their culture then surely you can incorporate that without turning it into a cartoon.
have you ever read "Autobiography of a Yogi"? it is a landmark text about bringing spirituality from East to West. in it he literally goes to Tibet and finds a mystic who expands his mind. i wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Strange borrowed liberally from this book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobiography_of_a_Yogi
Marvel is the #1 supplier of famous white men named Chris.
EatinOlives
Member
Not the point. Assume she refused to engage and the emails still come to light.
I'd have no problem with an all white Hamilton if it was a straight recreation of historical events. I haven't seen the play but I hear it has hip-hop elements so it would be pretty cringe if it was purely all old white men.
But the playing field and opportunities aren't the same so I can follow your tit for tat scenario.
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