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[1.21Gigawatts]

This is mostly a non-issue in Germany anyway. The amount of women wearing full veil is extremely tiny.
However, I don't really have a problem with it. Showing face is part of integration.
Successful integration only works when you actively try to prevent formation of parallel societies and a law like this would be part of this effort.

So what happens when the burqa ban turns into a hijab ban

Concerns like that are completely unfounded.

That argument falls apart completely when taking winter clothes into consideration, or motorcyclists who cover their face...or any number of other reasons someone might want to cover their face in public.

If there is a temporary technical necessity to cover your face thats okay. But lets say a motorcyclist wears his face thingy all day even when not on his bike that would be illegal as well.

So if I live in a country that passes laws that abrogate my religious freedom, that is fine, right?

In any country where freedom of religion is part of the constitution it will be up to the supreme courts to decide whether this ban is okay or not.

Since full veil is more of regional and cultural than islamic thing and showing your face in public is an integral part of taking part in a democratic society I am pretty sure supreme courts will mostly rule that a law like that is okay.

 

[Audioboxer]

to make this law just, she should change the language in her bill to include both genders

Heh, good one. However we all know ironically this has zero to do with men other than the oppressors, 99% men, demanding the oppressed, women, cover up because 'lol sexy demon bodies how dare they show skin'.

Anyone who tries to argue many of these principals aren't rooted in misogyny and male power needs to show me the male equivalent in action.

Oh, wait, I'm advised by Britain travel advice not to wear shorts outside in some countries. Guess there is that. My pasty freckle filled Scottish legs will just have to suffer in the heat in trousers. Those women who "choose" to dress in full bin bags in 40 degree heat must be loving that 'choice'.

The roots of these pieces of apparel fall right in line with what the texts say about women and how they need to cover up. Or I should say demand how they should cover up. There is no escaping this. However the government does have a fair point in saying none of this full concealment in high security public areas. No one else gets this kind of privilege for all the stupid arguments in here about kids costumes.

You do realise muslims come from all different races right? I don't know why racism keeps getting brought into this debate, unless we are referring to extreme far right groups which are already racist to begin with and only want things like this banned because they believe all muslims are non white? In which case that is a very small minority of individuals who do not represent the real reason as to why this is being banned.

Also, I cannot align with this being bigotry either, last time I checked bigotry was an intolerance to those holding different opinions this is an intolerance to the oppression of human beings, in this instance, women.

I agree, all religious clothing should be banned if said religious clothing prevents the identification of an individual or causes the majority of people in one gender in said religion to be oppressed, for what it is worth, I am an atheist.

Also to your last paragraph, what is your alternative then? Are you suggesting that we shouldn't ban things that are clearly oppressive so we can avoid a conflict with a group of extremist individuals already intent on seeing western culture or anything that goes against the extremist version of their ideology destroyed?

I agree that peaceful resolutions to every issue should be pursued, violence gets humans nowhere, humanity is on a course where we are determined to destroy ourselves for ideological reasons, the likes of which I just simply cannot understand despite extensive research in this, however, the idea we should bend our own progressiveness to possibly prevent an extremist group from recruiting more extremists seems ridiculous to me.

That's like saying we shouldn't stop racism because it will just make racists more racist which will make it easier for the KKK to recruit people and then the KKK are going to start mass murdering people they dislike because of our intolerance to racism.

Where have you been my friend? Shouting racism at every and any nuanced discussion around women and Islam is the trademarked Ben Affleck approach.

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

Heh, good one. However we all know ironically this has zero to do with men other than the oppressors, 99% men, demanding the oppressed, women, cover up because 'lol sexy demon bodies how dare they show skin'.

Anyone who tries to argue many of these principals aren't rooted in misogyny and male power needs to show me the male equivalent in action.

Oh, wait, I'm advised by Britain travel advice not to wear shorts outside in some countries. Guess there is that. My pasty freckle filled Scottish legs will just have to suffer in the heat in trousers. Those women who "choose" to dress in full bin bags in 40 degree heat must be loving that 'choice'.

At least in Saudi Arabia, men can't enter malls without their family (They're easing on this rule), men can't wear shorts in public or tank tops, men have to wear official government garb to work, school, or doing any governmental things (Applying for a passport ETC). Men can't grow their hair out, have earrings, men are supposed to have beard, and even can't cut their hair to be shorter on the sides, longer on the top (At least for Wahhabi's).

Women have it a lot worst, but Islam has kinda similar ideas of modesty for men.

 

[Audioboxer]

At least in Saudi Arabia, men can't enter malls without their family (They're easing on this rule), men can't wear shorts in public or tank tops, men have to wear official government garb to work, school, or doing any governmental things (Applying for a passport ETC). Men can't grow their hair out, have earrings, men are supposed to have beard, and even can't cut their hair to be shorter on the sides, longer on the top (At least for Wahhabi's).

Women have it a lot worst, but Islam has kinda similar ideas of modesty for men.

Probably because it's well known having long hair, a nose piercing and a tank top means you are a raging fabulous gay?

If there is anyone that is hated more than women and the Jews, it's probably the gays. Well, maybe the Jews win overall. Women and the gays aren't far behind though.

Either way my sarcasm aside it is like you said, women get it much worse. Men can drive and at least can show their face and not need to look through a slit. The sexes are nowhere near equal even if the men still have oppressive laws put on them.

 

[Salty Rice]

No. Women can wear whatever they want.

Could they also wear a Nazi uniform if they wanted it? Doubt it.

 

[Blackhead]

Forcing people to wear the burka clearly infringes on their rights. Luckily, as I understand it, Germany has freedom of religion, so people cannot be forced legally to wear the burka. If they're being coerced with violence or threats, that's already illegal. If they're being coerced with loss of social support, that is a problem that Germans should work to solve by making sure that women who want to stop wearing the burka have organizations and people to reach out to in order to get that social support.

Banning the burka does nothing to help the people who are being coerced to wear it. It just adds coercion on the other side, in the form of state power and implicitly condoning attacks on Muslims, as has already happened in France. That makes life worse for these people, not better.

Obviously, in the general case, the burka is reactionary and misogynistic. I would certainly prefer if nobody were to wear it. But freedom of religion means that it would be unconscionable to ban it. I have confidence that cosmopolitan pluralism and the march of generations will moderate religious extremists, as it historically does. I believe in the moral imperative and practical superiority of liberalism! I don't think we need to compromise it out of fear.

devil's advocate ― what if:
ban the burka but make the 'punishment' for wearing a burka be enforced contact with one of these organizations you recommend. No jail time, no fines, not even a deadline to stop wearing the burka, but instead a required regular meeting and/or home visit by a social worker as long as the person chooses to wear the burka

and of course continue to have a no tolerance policy against hate crimes towards muslims or other vigilante action towards people wearing burka's publicly.

 

[yanipheonu]

So i was thinking about it.

Isn't this just treating a symptom but not the disease?

I mean, the pretence for these ban is that its against people oppressing women.
How will this solve the oppression? Women will still be oppressed, but now its just less obvious. Does removing the veil remove the underlying social problems that make it exist?
Not to mention, what if a particularly oppressive husband forces his wife to wear a full veil despite the law? Now shes caught between oppression and the law.

Thats not even touching on the obvious xenophobia/islamiphobia involved.

It just seems so messy and ineffective. I don't really think its a problem you can throw a ban at.

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

Probably because it's well known having long hair, a nose piercing and a tank top means you are a raging fabulous gay?

If there is anyone that is hated more than women and the Jews, it's probably the gays. Well, maybe the Jews win overall. Women and the gays aren't far behind though.

Either way my sarcasm aside it is like you said, women get it much worse. Men can drive and at least can show their face and not need to look through a slit. The sexes are nowhere near equal even if the men still have oppressive laws put on them.

Women in Saudi Arabia can show their face, mostly the new generation of Urban women wear the Hijab, or even choose not to. But women who work in retail do have to wear a niqab.

Also I don't thinks the restriction for men are because of gay people, because in Shia Islam it's totally okay to have long hear. I think more it's about strict gender identity, more than sexual orientation.

 

[Audioboxer]

So i was thinking about it.

Isn't this just treating a symptom but not the disease?

I mean, the pretence for these ban is that its against people oppressing women.
How will this solve the oppression? Women will still be oppressed, but now its just less obvious. Does removing the veil remove the underlying social problems that make it exist?
Not to mention, what if a particularly oppressive husband forces his wife to wear a full veil despite the law? Now shes caught between oppression and the law.

Thats not even touching on the obvious xenophobia/islamiphobia involved.

It just seems so messy and ineffective. I don't really think its a problem you can throw a ban at.

What do you feel about when it is applied to specific government/public areas?

Some are calling for a law making it a regulatory offense for women to cover their faces in courtrooms, administrative buildings and schools, as well as while driving or attending demonstrations.

“The full veil is not appropriate here,” Merkel said. “It should be banned wherever it’s legally possible.”

The law also would impose fines on women who refuse to take off covering veils to allow law enforcement officials to compare their faces with photo IDs.

Or do you think religion trumps all scenarios?

Women in Saudi Arabia can show their face, mostly the new generation of Urban women wear the Hijab, or even choose not to. But women who work in retail do have to wear a niqab.

Also I don't thinks the restriction for men are because of gay people, because in Shia Islam it's totally okay to have long hear. I think more it's about strict gender identity, more than sexual orientation.

I was being a bit facetious. However even with sexual equality men are allowed multiple women/wives, and can even marry minors, so yeah, that's enough said to show where the power lies. Women routinely get stoned/caned/taken to a court of law for being "adulterers". Heck you can be taken in front of a sharia court... after you've been raped.

Merkel went in hard on Sharia/honor killing as well

“We don’t want any parallel societies,” she said. “Our law takes precedence before tribal rules, codes of honor and sharia.”

 

[Chairman Yang]

So i was thinking about it.

Isn't this just treating a symptom but not the disease?

I mean, the pretence for these ban is that its against people oppressing women.
How will this solve the oppression? Women will still be oppressed, but now its just less obvious. Does removing the veil remove the underlying social problems that make it exist?
Not to mention, what if a particularly oppressive husband forces his wife to wear a full veil despite the law? Now shes caught between oppression and the law.

Thats not even touching on the obvious xenophobia/islamiphobia involved.

It just seems so messy and ineffective. I don't really think its a problem you can throw a ban at.

Turkey long ago banned certain forms of Muslim dress in certain circumstances. The idea was that it would contribute to de-Islamizing culture. I think, in practice, that was true in Turkey.

Was it messy? Definitely. Was it ineffective? Considering how secular Turkey was for so long, in stark contrast to many other Muslim countries, I don't think so. The ban didn't singlehandedly transform Turkey, but it contributed. Was it worth the cost to religious freedom? It's a question worth looking at.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Could they also wear a Nazi uniform if they wanted it? Doubt it.

Congrats on being the first to invoke Godwin's law

 

[Salty Rice]

Congrats on being the first to invoke Godwin's law

How dare i use a Nazi uniform as example for the most offensive thing you could wear in germany.

Replace it with X of "not tolerated and offensive clothing" if you feel better.

It doesnt change the fact that everyone can NOT wear what they want.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

How dare i use a Nazi uniform as example for the most offensive thing you could wear in germany.

Replace it with X of "not tolerated and offensive clothing" if you feel better.

It doesnt change the fact that everyone can NOT wear what they want.

Comparing the burqa to Nazi anything says more about you than it does about the burqa. It's an erroneous comparison.

There's nothing about the burqa that's inherently 'intolerable or offensive'. You choose to be offended and intolerant by projecting your own feelings onto it. The burqa doesn't offend me, and while I don't support it, I can tolerate and accept it. Maybe you should ask the women themselves why they wear it, instead of projecting your own prejudice onto them? I can assure you it has nothing to do with Nazism.

How dare i use a Nazi uniform as example for the most offensive thing you could wear in germany.

Replace it with X of "not tolerated and offensive clothing" if you feel better.

It doesnt change the fact that everyone can NOT wear what they want.

Comparing the burqa to Nazi anything says more about you than it does about the burqa. It's an erroneous comparison.

There's nothing about the burqa that's inherently 'intolerable or offensive'. You choose to be offended and intolerant by projecting your own feelings onto it. The burqa doesn't offend me, and while I don't support it, I can tolerate and accept it. Maybe you should ask the women themselves why they wear it, instead of projecting your own prejudice onto them? I can assure you it has nothing to do with Nazism.

While I can understand Germany banning Nazi uniforms because of its history, that doesn't mean we should be expanding laws with flawed reasoning behind them. Nazism is an ideology calls for genocide and violence against Jews and other minorities. The burqa does nothing of the sort. This is why your Godwin's Law attempt is so ridiculous and why the adage exists.

 

[KingV]

What about on Halloween?

I knew something was fishy when she did the Heil Trump thing /s

 

[ant_]

There's nothing about the burqa that's inherently 'intolerable or offensive'. You choose to be offended and intolerant by projecting your own feelings onto it. The burqa doesn't offend me, and while I don't support it, I can tolerate and accept it. Maybe you should ask the women themselves why they wear it, instead of projecting your own prejudice onto them? I can assure you it has nothing to do with Nazism.

...what? You aren't offended by the idea that women should be shameful of their bodies and should not display their face or body to anyone except their family and husband? It's an attack on the freedom and rights of women. The only reason you are 'tolerable' of it is because it stems from a religious belief.

It's an absolutely ridiculous idea and should not be welcome in any progressive society. I'm sad that so many people are willing to be tolerant of these oppressive ideas just because they are religious in nature.

 

[pigeon]

It's an absolutely ridiculous idea and should not be welcome in any progressive society. I'm sad that so many people are willing to be tolerant of these oppressive ideas just because they are religious in nature.

That is, actually, how civil society works. I don't agree with the burka, and I think it is deeply misogynistic and oppressive. I would prefer that nobody wear it. But the way to accomplish that is to convince the people who support it that it is misogynistic and oppressive, rather than by banning it outright.

 

[Audioboxer]

What about on Halloween?

I knew something was fishy when she did the Heil Trump thing /s

How many people go to the bank, airport or other high security areas at Halloween? Out of that one person on FB you can find for me that did, were they in costume, and if yes, did they say their Halloween religion should exempt them from having to comply? Did they have mobs of people online say it is racist for a government or people who support the idea of Halloween faces being visible in high security areas? Doubt it. Hence, silly comparisons are silly.

That is, actually, how civil society works. I don't agree with the burka, and I think it is deeply misogynistic and oppressive. I would prefer that nobody wear it. But the way to accomplish that is to convince the people who support it that it is misogynistic and oppressive, rather than by banning it outright.

We do tell many that, but as I echoed in here a few times what choice do they really have when faced with the ire, either physical or mental from their husbands and family? Whether the family has travelled as well or is back home. Wouldn't you in such dire straights choose to keep wearing a full face covering rather than being beaten? It's easy for liberals on messageboards to say "education man, it frees us all". Yeah, well, what does education do to protect you from a fist, cane, stones or worse?

You routinely see families reject women who are thrown out for having sex outside of marriage, or rejecting them for being fucking raped. I think you severely underestimate the dire consequences for any of these women to actually act out and do something about the "education" you and everyone else keeps saying is simply the answer. The catch-22 is on any of them who do hold a tiny place in their hearts to be like the other women they may be around. Sure some are so indoctrinated and unable to understand as women they are equal to men, but others probably secretly desire deep inside their hearts to have a better quality of life.

We're in 2016 and as a human race are still debating how to try and solve these problems. There is no easy answer, and as more and more years pass by it's probably why some are looking to the nuclear option. That being trying to speed up change even with consequences. But nah, don't worry... I'm sure in 200 years times we'll be doing better. Well, maybe, but how does that help those now who will be dead well before then?

Oh and might I add you get someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who speaks out about FGM and other things about religion, and she is called a racist and bigot. An educated women not taking any shit, so okay, she must be a racist and bigot. Paging Ben Affleck and the rest of the crony liberals more interested in virtue signaling and oppression Olympics to then actually railroad the conversations about polls, stats, education and future tolerance by calling everyone critical and concerned a racist or a bigot or an islamophobe.

 

[Salty Rice]

There's nothing about the burqa that's inherently 'intolerable or offensive'.

If you give no shit about oppressing women, sure.

 

[ant_]

That is, actually, how civil society works. I don't agree with the burka, and I think it is deeply misogynistic and oppressive. I would prefer that nobody wear it. But the way to accomplish that is to convince the people who support it that it is misogynistic and oppressive, rather than by banning it outright.

I wish I had your idealistic view of society and religion.

You're point is inherently correct - to solve this problem, people need to be educated. However, you're solution is just not implementable. It's an ideal solution that ignores the difficult reality of the situation and the predicaments most of these women face. The world at large needs to do more to welcome Islam to the 21st century and simultaneously Islam needs to have more internal reform to be welcomed into the 21st century.

 

[Goodstyle]

Merkel is playing politics, full stop. This is a dumb ban that will only make things worse for a lot of people, but politically it's smart. Shit like this is like catnip to white people, and Merkel will have a better shot at not handing over power to a fascist. She's seen what went down in America, she knows.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

...what? You aren't offended by the idea that women should be shameful of their bodies and should not display their face or body to anyone except their family and husband? It's an attack on the freedom and rights of women. The only reason you are 'tolerable' of it is because it stems from a religious belief.

It's an absolutely ridiculous idea and should not be welcome in any progressive society. I'm sad that so many people are willing to be tolerant of these oppressive ideas just because they are religious in nature.

Like I said, many are projecting their own prejudices onto why other people are wearing a burqa. Some wear it because they don't believe their bodies are for society to dictate how they dress. Women wear make-up, do their hair, and buy expensive clothes to increase their chances at getting a job and getting ahead in society. A burqa can be a symbol of rebellion against this standard, that my body is for me to look at and not for other people. I'm not saying this is the only reason someone would wear one, but it's a potential reason someone can wear it.

I tolerate it because I believe in freedom of expression. It just happens to be religious in nature. It would be nice if you can stop appropriating words like "liberal" and "progressive", those words don't only belong to you. There's a good liberal case (freedom of expression) and progressive case (pluralistic society, laws targeting minorities) to oppose a burqa ban.

 

[ant_]

Merkel is playing politics, full stop. This is a dumb ban that will only make things worse for a lot of people, but politically it's smart. Shit like this is like catnip to white people, and Merkel will have a better shot at not handing over power to a fascist. She's seen what went down in America, she knows.

Yes, Merkel, the same individual who welcomed 1,000,000 refugees into her country is trying to pander to the right.

Like I said, many are projecting their own prejudices onto why other people are wearing a burqa. Some wear it because they don't believe their bodies are for society to dictate how they dress. Women wear make-up, do their hair, and buy expensive clothes to increase their chances at getting a job and getting ahead in society. A burqa can be a symbol of rebellion against this standard, that my body is for me to look at and not for other people. I'm not saying this is the only reason someone would wear one, but it's a potential reason someone can wear it.

I tolerate it because I believe in freedom of expression. It just happens to be religious in nature. It would be nice if you can stop appropriating words like "liberal" and "progressive", those words don't only belong to you. There's a good liberal case (freedom of expression) and progressive case (pluralistic society, laws targeting minorities) to oppose a burqa ban.

I'm sorry but this post just really makes me realize how little you know of the issue. The burqa is not a symbol of expression. You should read about how women are treated and valued in Islamic-dominated countries. It's an affront to liberal values and should be offensive to anyone who values freedom.

 

[Goodstyle]

Yes, Merkel, the same individual who welcomed 1,000,000 refugees into her country is trying to pander to the right.

That's WHY she's doing this now. She made a tough call and it hurt her politically. Her favourability has taken a nose dive, she and her party faced massive losses this year. Where have you been? Her decision to do that has NOT been popular at all. This seems like an attempt to win back favour.

 

[pigeon]

We do tell many that, but as I echoed in here a few times what choice do they really have when faced with the ire, either physical or mental from their husbands and family? Whether the family has travelled as well or is back home. Wouldn't you in such dire straights choose to keep wearing a full face covering rather than being beaten? It's easy for liberals on messageboards to say "education man, it frees us all". Yeah, well, what does education do to protect you from a fist, cane, stones or worse?

I have already responded to this multiple times in this thread.

We're not talking about Saudi Arabia. We're talking about Germany, where domestic violence is against the law. If your position is that Germany is wholly incapable of protecting women from being physically abused by their families and coerced into a burka, shouldn't you be out advocating for Germany to do something about violence against women? That sounds like a much more serious issue for you to address!

In addition, criminalizing the burka does nothing to address the issue you're discussing. These women will still be subject to the exact same coercion you are currently arguing prevents them from discarding the burka. They'll just also be subject to coercion from the state and from reactionaries who believe that the new law implicitly allows them to mount physical attacks on obvious Muslims -- which, again, has already happened in France, where they passed such a ban.

If you are concerned for the plight of these women, it is unclear to me why you're advocating for a policy that will make their lives significantly worse, rather than a policy that would actually help them escape from oppression.

 

[Audioboxer]

That's WHY she's doing this now. She made a tough call and it hurt her politically. Her favourability has taken a nose dive, she and her party faced massive losses this year. Where have you been? Her decision to do that has NOT been popular at all. This seems like an attempt to win back favour.

Nah, what hasn't been popular is the left and liberals being such cowards in fear of being called names you go from being empathetic but smart about screening, to just fucking letting everyone and anyone in. Immigration is a topic with lots of nuance, lots of thinking and lots of decision making from supposed experts. It is not a Donald Trump shut up shop, and it's not a Merkel if you have a pulse come on in. The answer lies somewhere in the middle. As much as you want to be empathetic to the plight of innocent endangered people globally, you do still need to serve, take care of and respect your own ideals/country.

Ironically even although I mentioned Trump above I've already called out Middle Eastern countries in this topic who take in fuck all immigrants. Meaning the immigrants either have to treck into Europe, or go across perilous journeys on boats. You know but, no one says fuck all about the neighbouring countries not helping. That would be racist to question why the brown people next door won't take in millions of immigrants! These are the kinds of knots the left puts itself in, whilst the right totally out of line themselves ends up picking up sympathy votes because while they are spewing shite/hate, they are at least talking about these matters.

I have already responded to this multiple times in this thread.

We're not talking about Saudi Arabia. We're talking about Germany, where domestic violence is against the law. If your position is that Germany is wholly incapable of protecting women from being physically abused by their families and coerced into a burka, shouldn't you be out advocating for Germany to do something about violence against women? That sounds like a much more serious issue for you to address!

In addition, criminalizing the burka does nothing to address the issue you're discussing. These women will still be subject to the exact same coercion you are currently arguing prevents them from discarding the burka. They'll just also be subject to coercion from the state and from reactionaries who believe that the new law implicitly allows them to mount physical attacks on obvious Muslims -- which, again, has already happened in France, where they passed such a ban.

If you are concerned for the plight of these women, it is unclear to me why you're advocating for a policy that will make their lives significantly worse, rather than a policy that would actually help them escape from oppression.

So, have you just ignored recent rape gangs in Germany? A lot of these men will be the same ones "married" to the women you are saying educate yourselves and be free!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

These women will still be subject to the exact same coercion you are currently arguing prevents them from discarding the burka. They'll just also be subject to coercion from the state and from reactionaries who believe that the new law implicitly allows them to mount physical attacks on obvious Muslims -- which, again, has already happened in France, where they passed such a ban.

The good ole catch 22 of doing nothing to oppression still = less oppression. This is the biggest challenge we face.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Yes, Merkel, the same individual who welcomed 1,000,000 refugees into her country is trying to pander to the right.



I'm sorry but this post just really makes me realize how little you know of the issue. The burqa is not a symbol of expression. You should read about how women are treated and valued in Islamic-dominated countries. It's an affront to liberal values and should be offensive to anyone who values freedom.

I lived in a Muslim country for 5 years, am an ex-Muslim, have travelled to multiple Muslim countries, and my cousin's aunt wears a niqab (her adult daughters don't wear it, so I strongly doubt it's forced). I wouldn't be quick to make assumptions.

If you want to talk about the niqab in Muslim countries, then we can talk about it in that thread. This thread's about Germany, and yes that does make a difference.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Merkel is playing politics, full stop. This is a dumb ban that will only make things worse for a lot of people, but politically it's smart. Shit like this is like catnip to white people, and Merkel will have a better shot at not handing over power to a fascist. She's seen what went down in America, she knows.

She knows shit. . She encouraged a lot of islamic folk to come to germany..and now she wants to tell them what they have to wear?

So now she's alienating both sides?

What a fucking moron.

Nah, what hasn't been popular is the left and liberals being such cowards in fear of being called names you go from being empathetic but smart about screening, to just fucking letting everyone and anyone in. Immigration is a topic with lots of nuance, lots of thinking and lots of decision making from supposed experts. It is not a Donald Trump shut up shop, and it's not a Merkel if you have a pulse come on in. The answer lies somewhere in the middle. As much as you want to be empathetic to the plight of innocent endangered people globally, you do still need to serve, take care of and respect your own ideals/country.

amen.

 

[ant_]

I lived in a Muslim country for 5 years, am an ex-Muslim, have travelled to multiple Muslim countries, and my cousin's aunt wears a niqab (her adult daughters don't wear it, so I strongly doubt it's forced). I wouldn't be quick to make assumptions.

If you want to talk about the niqab in Muslim countries, then we can talk about it in that thread. This thread's about Germany, and yes that does make a difference.

I'm not jumping to assumptions, I value your experience and the experiences you have had within your own family. I still inherently believe your ideas are wrong. The burqa is quite clearly a symbol of oppression and inequality towards women. I find it completely offensive to all of the values that matter to me.

 

[pigeon]

So, have you just ignored recent rape gangs in Germany? A lot of these men will be the same ones "married" to the women you are saying educate yourselves and be free!

That's not what I'm saying -- I get the impression you are simply not reading my posts at all.

How does criminalizing the burka solve the problem of rape gangs? Doesn't that seem like something you should be trying to address?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I'm not jumping to assumptions, I value your experience and the experiences you have had within your own family. I still inherently believe your ideas are wrong. The burqa is quite clearly a symbol of oppression and inequality towards women. I find it completely offensive to all of the values that matter to me.

In the French sociology paper posted on this page (post #630), there are many women who exclaim that they wore the burqa by choice. What do you have to say to those women?

 

[TatteredHat]

I find it very hard to judge if this is good or bad, having free choice over what you wear is important but I imagine for at least a few women the choice to wear a niqab/burqa stems from having grown up in an environment that has been discriminatory towards women.

 

[Audioboxer]

That's not what I'm saying -- I get the impression you are simply not reading my posts at all.

How does criminalizing the burka solve the problem of rape gangs? Doesn't that seem like something you should be trying to address?

It all ties into the package of to try and tackle ANY of these oppressive matters has liberals and the left cowering in fear of being called racist. Talking about immigration in any other way than "come on in" equals being a racist, bigot or Donald Trump sympathizer. Womens rights and oppression are always a thorny topic because liberals and feminists get tied up in knots not knowing whether to argue the burqa is a sign of expression, or oppression. If they go with expression, they are misogynists, if they go with oppression, they are racist bigots. Such is the black and white games the left is playing these days.

One action to try and lessen oppression doesn't equal them all being fixed, I didn't say that either. I said the kind of men you think these women can stand up to and say I'm not wearing this anymore are precisely the kind of men who will beat the living daylight out of their wives for any sort of dissent. How does education really help that? Education might single handily help a women who can go live on her own and has the finances to do that. It often does! Most Muslim women, or ex-Muslim women who escape oppression go away on their own escaping forced marriages or even just the wrong marriage. For a large majority they are stuck in the marriages they are in, and stuck in the enclosed communities they congregate in.

 

[ant_]

In the French sociology paper posted on this page (post #630), there are many women who exclaim that they wore the burqa by choice. What do you have to say to those women?

I'd say they're lucky to have that choice. Many women do not.

 

[pigeon]

I'd say they're lucky to have that choice.

And then you'd advocate for that choice to be made illegal.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'd say they're lucky to have that choice. Many women do not.

I'm pretty certain if anyone has the choice of cover their full face, or face consequences both physical and mental they'll damn well do jumping jacks to say they chose the former.

Such is the powerful grip of indoctrination and oppression. It leads you to a false sense of believing you've picked the better of two shitty options, therefore, choice. You either pick obedience, or you opt for disobedience and face far greater consequences. So add authoritarianism to the indoctrination and oppression.

 

[Circinus]

Pretty disappointing to see Germany moving in the same direction as the other big Western countries. I couldn't find any statements from the SPD about this when I looked, hopefully they can do better in the coming election.

This is not on the same level at all; it isn't the direction you're insinuating it is, at all. Burqa is completely anti-social and if anything condoning is a barrier for better integration imho. I don't think it belongs in any civilized country.

 

[Pusherman]

I lived in a Muslim country for 5 years, am an ex-Muslim, have travelled to multiple Muslim countries, and my cousin's aunt wears a niqab (her adult daughters don't wear it, so I strongly doubt it's forced). I wouldn't be quick to make assumptions.

If you want to talk about the niqab in Muslim countries, then we can talk about it in that thread. This thread's about Germany, and yes that does make a difference.

It's no use I'm afraid. The most ardent supporters of a ban on the face-veil seem to think they understand Islam and muslims better than actual muslims/people from Islamic communities. That's probably why literally none of them have shown any interest whatsoever in actually talking to any woman wearing a face-veil. It's fucking infuriating.

So to those people I want to make the point yet a-fucking-gain: plenty of women, including women from a non-Islamic background that converted at a later age, have defended their right to voluntarily wear a face-veil. There is no evidence that banning the face-veil will help women instead of curtail their freedoms. The only actual reason people have for banning the face-veil is because they believe it doesn't 'belong' in western society and I don't believe that's a legitimate reason. I don't think any progressive should think that reason legitimate. Arguing that certain garments don't belong in the west just opens the door to creating degrees of being western. Garments and cultural traditions don't make the west. Freedom of religion and freedom of expression are some of the hallmarks of Western values. They should not be compromised because of ill-conceived boogeymen and blatant Islamophobia and racism.

You can't sit on your fucking throne and call a group of women oppressed without actually engaging with them, without hearing them when they tell you they're not, and ban something you call a tool of oppression while the women wearing it tell you it is a means of expression and then turn around and tell me you did it all for those women you've conveniently ignored.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Like I said, many are projecting their own prejudices onto why other people are wearing a burqa. Some wear it because they don't believe their bodies are for society to dictate how they dress. Women wear make-up, do their hair, and buy expensive clothes to increase their chances at getting a job and getting ahead in society. A burqa can be a symbol of rebellion against this standard, that my body is for me to look at and not for other people. I'm not saying this is the only reason someone would wear one, but it's a potential reason someone can wear it.

I tolerate it because I believe in freedom of expression. It just happens to be religious in nature. It would be nice if you can stop appropriating words like "liberal" and "progressive", those words don't only belong to you. There's a good liberal case (freedom of expression) and progressive case (pluralistic society, laws targeting minorities) to oppose a burqa ban.

Do you really think that anyone is wearing a burqa as a fashion statement in day to day life instead of out of cultural or religious reason? I find that very, very, very hard to believe.

It's no use I'm afraid. The most ardent supporters of a ban on the face-veil seem to think they understand Islam and muslims better than actual muslims/people from Islamic communities. That's probably why literally none of them have shown any interest whatsoever in actually talking to any woman wearing a face-veil. It's fucking infuriating.

So to those people I want to make the point yet a-fucking-gain: plenty of women, including women from a non-Islamic background that converted at a later age, have defended their right to voluntarily wear a face-veil. There is no evidence that banning the face-veil will help women instead of curtail their freedoms. The only actual reason people have for banning the face-veil is because they believe it doesn't 'belong' in western society and I don't believe that's a legitimate reason. I don't think any progressive should think that reason legitimate. Arguing that certain garments don't belong in the west just opens the door to creating degrees of being western. Garments and cultural traditions don't make the west. Freedom of religion and freedom of expression are some of the hallmarks of Western values. They should not be compromised because of ill-conceived boogeymen and blatant Islamophobia and racism.

You can't sit on your fucking throne and call a group of women oppressed without actually engaging with them, without hearing them when they tell you they're not, and ban something you call a tool of oppression while the women wearing it tell you it is a means of expression and then turn around and tell me you did it all for those women you've conveniently ignored.

Yet you think we should compromise our views of equality by being OK with a clearly misogynistic thing.

 

[JP_]

Do you really think that anyone is wearing a burqa as a fashion statement in day to day life instead of out of cultural or religious reason? I find that very, very, very hard to believe.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131011-hijab-ban-turkey-islamic-headscarf-ataturk/

A Woman's Perspective

Much of the negativity about headscarves and veils comes from a lack of understanding about what they mean and why women choose wear them, says Shalina Litt, a popular Muslim radio presenter in Birmingham, England, who lectures and blogs about women's rights and Islamic issues and wears the niqab herself. "For me," she says, "it is an expression of faith, and modesty is a part of that. At the same time, I live in the real world. When I go to an airport and it is time to show my ID, I lift my veil—whether it is to a man or a woman—and just get on with it. That's life. Those security rules are in place to protect us all, and there is nothing in the teaching of Islam that says we shouldn't go along with those rules."

Wearing the veil can be surprisingly empowering, says Litt. In recalling how she adopted the niqab gradually over time, moving from loose-fitting clothing to a headscarf to occasionally wearing the niqab to becoming a full-time wearer as her relationship with her faith evolved, she spoke of the first time she sat down to talk with a man while wearing the veil: "I thought: Wow! This is liberating. He is having to listen to my words, not judge me by my clothes or my face, but paying attention purely to what I have to say."

The reasons are varied. Your cartoonish view is not universal.

 

[Pusherman]

Do you really think that anyone is wearing a burqa as a fashion statement in day to day life instead of out of cultural or religious reason? I find that very, very, very hard to believe.


Yet you think we should compromise our views of equality by being OK with a clearly misogynistic thing.

Women deciding for themselves to believe in a religion that is patriarchal, misogynist and controlling in no way harms my view of equality. I don't share the beliefs of those women but still support their right to believe them. I think women that voted for Trump were supporting a sexist misogynist who's policies will hurt women, I think women that get extensive and superficial plastic surgery are both victims off and perpetuate a sexist culture of objectification, I think conservative christian women voting for a party like the SGP, a dutch christian party that until recently did not allow women on the list, are hurting women and supporting a sexist misogynist system of belief.

I've got all kinds of opinions on people's beliefs and actions but that doesn't mean that I don't also support their right to have those beliefs and act on them. Precisely because I support equality between the sexes I wouldn't even think about banning or legislating something without talking to the women involved. Equality means treating women, yes even foreign and conservative women, as people deserving of respect that must be heard. I would never talk for such women because I know they can talk for themselves. Go look'em up, plenty have spoken out against a ban. Abusive acts against women are already illegal. If there are women in abusive environments the only other way to help them is by including them in society. A ban would do no such thing.

So again, just to hammer this fucking home, this ban does not help muslim women wearing a face-veil. This ban is about precluding certain people from western society, making them into a dangerous, threatening other. I know that shit won't stop with a face-veil and I won't budge a fucking inch. I am not going to legitimize the racist and Islamophobic far-right by playing along in their little game and supporting a ban that will not help anyone yet aid the hurting of quite a few. It's that fucking simple.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I am a pragmatic above all else. If it turns out a burka ban does not help in reducing radicalization and making women more free from their oppressive communities, then I would oppose the ban even though I would support it on principle. I haven't seen enough evidence either way, yet.

Criminalizing is exactly what is. Even if was a summary offense. I mean this is a harsh action. It's not a touchy feel good thing.

Also would it?

Or would those male relatives just switch to making them stay in.

A legitimate concern, I agree. I don't think the status quo is acceptable though.

And those (even if they are few) who choose to for themselves and in the end for those fee the only person affected is themselves, now see their decision criminalized.

And for what?

It's patronizing as fuck to believe that all these women will just "see the light" now that a ban is in place.

It's not that fucking easy

No it's not that easy, but it's a start in de-legitimizing radical Islamic beliefs and behaviours.

Haha I stopped at "salafism isn't always bad".

Seriously. Fuck that noise.

I think we could all benefit from understanding that this is not a binary issue.

The niqab/burka is used as a tool of oppression. As a matter of fact, you can very easily argue that its sole purpose is to oppress women, no matter how do you try to frame as something that can be worn voluntarily. On the other side, that piece of clothing is meant to be worn outside, so by banning it you are literally criminalising the oppressed and reducing their already endangered autonomy.

This is an extremely complicated situation that should be framed in a different way. Not unlike so many political decisions, a ban is going to be both beneficial and detrimental in different ways. Maybe we should be pondering what is better in regards to the common good, not without thinking about programmes meant to increase equalty among muslims.

Good post. Thank you.

Wearing the veil does not make one an extremist.

Yes, it does.

Assuming by "veil" you mean the burka and not the actual veil which no one is talking about...

Women can be misogynist too. Women can be radicalised too. Some women wanting to wear a symbol of radicalisation and misogyny is not an excuse for it to be OK. Hell, there are a lot of christian women who are religious nuts and attack other women's right to their body in US and all over the world. That doesn't make it OK.

Yup yup

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. This blasphemy law you are talking about protects every religion and world view, you might have, from being made fun of. Since it includes world views it also protect atheists and I think this law is quite sensible. Just because you don't agree with people doesn't mean you're allowed to make fun of them.

WTF?!

Of course I'm allowed to make fun of them. What the hell am I reading?

It is sad that this debate either ends on polarizing takes with name calling.

It is perfectly fine to want gender equality and being weary of ultra Conservative religious beliefs that are misogynistic

defending minority rights is one thing, defending equality.

but that equality is broken when ultra-religious beliefs are in conflict with gender equality

there are many secular Muslims who are against full face coverings,

there are many secular Muslims who fled to Europe to get away from oppressive ultra religious regimes

these secular Muslims don't want to see those ultra religious conservative factions follow them in Europe

Nevermind those facts, if you oppose the burka, you are an Islamophobe period. Or something.

“It’s my way of fighting, to say no to the government, who took away my liberty,” said a woman named Leila who began wearing the veil after 2010.

Wow, we should throw her in jail to free her from this oppressive veil.

No one talked about throwing people in jail, did they? Anyway, that woman is an idiot.

There's nothing about the burqa that's inherently 'intolerable or offensive'.

....................

Fuck this. I can't deal with such a staggering amount of ignorance.

Nazism is an ideology calls for genocide and violence against Jews and other minorities. The burqa does nothing of the sort.

The burka calls for the oppression, dehumanization, and subjugation of women. It was invented for that very purpose, and is still used for that purpose today. It is absolutely a valid comparison.

 

[Audioboxer]

Speaking of the worlds top Islamophobic people this caught my eye in my YT subscriptions

Waking Up With Sam Harris #55 - Islamism vs Secularism (with Shadi Hamid)

In this episode of the Waking Up podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Shadi Hamid about the power of religious belief, the failure of the Left, Islamist democracy, free speech, profiling, white nationalism, Obama’s foreign policy and other topics.

Shadi Hamid is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in the Project on U.S. Relations with the Islamic World in the Center for Middle East Policy and the author of the new book Islamic Exceptionalism: How the Struggle Over Islam is Reshaping the World. His previous book, Temptations of Power: Islamists and Illiberal Democracy in a New Middle East, was named a Foreign Affairs “Best Book of 2014.” Hamid served as director of research at the Brookings Doha Center until January 2014. Prior to joining Brookings, he was director of research at the Project on Middle East Democracy (POMED) and a Hewlett Fellow at Stanford University’s Center on Democracy, Development, and the Rule of Law. Hamid is a contributing writer for The Atlantic and the vice-chair of POMED’s board of directors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd8BhusSF7c

Maybe big Sam reads GAF and wanted to drop this today?

 

[thelatestmodel]

Speaking of the worlds top Islamophobic people this caught my eye in my YT subscriptions



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd8BhusSF7c

Maybe big Sam reads GAF and wanted to drop this today?

Sam Harris is not Islamophobic, he is just very critical of it.

 

[pigeon]

I am a pragmatic above all else. If it turns out a burka ban does not help in reducing radicalization and making women more free from their oppressive communities, then I would oppose the ban even though I would support it on principle. I haven't seen enough evidence either way, yet.

Just to be clear, the fact that a ban was passed in France, had no benefits, and increased violence against Muslims is not enough evidence for you.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Sam Harris is not Islamophobic, he is just very critical of it.

For some people there is no difference. You attack the religion, you are also attacking the people. It's bullshit, of course. No one ever accuses those who mock, deride, or criticize Christianity to be "Christianophobes". xD

Just to be clear, the fact that a ban was passed in France, had no benefits, and increased violence against Muslims is not enough evidence for you.

I would need to see evidence that this ban is a cause of "increased violence against Muslims", yes. As for "no benefits", again, citation needed. The European Court of Human Rights upheld the ban, after all.

 

[Audioboxer]

Sam Harris is not Islamophobic, he is just very critical of it.

I know, I was mocking that criticism that is always thrown his way to shut him down. All things considered I like Harris as he often 'goes there' and talks about everything and anything. He isn't a Hitch, but as good as Hitch was, not everyone can use wit and charm like that man knew the English language inside out. Harris is awfully dry and to the point, but the guy still offers food for thought.

Anyway I'll try listen to some soon. Long form podcasts are great but require a lot of time and effort. It just caught my eye as the topics and his guest seem like they might align with a lot of the debates in here.

 

[ClosingADoor]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131011-hijab-ban-turkey-islamic-headscarf-ataturk/



The reasons are varied. Your cartoonish view is not universal.

Please tell why my view is "cartoonish"?

And your example says "as her relationship with her faith evolved" which implies it is still very much a religious reason, not a fashion one.

Women deciding for themselves to believe in a religion that is patriarchal, misogynist and controlling in no way harms my view of equality. I don't share the beliefs of those women but still support their right to believe them. I think women that voted for Trump were supporting a sexist misogynist who's policies will hurt women, I think women that get extensive and superficial plastic surgery are both victims off and perpetuate a sexist culture of objectification, I think conservative christian women voting for a party like the SGP, a dutch christian party that until recently did not allow women on the list, are hurting women and supporting a sexist misogynist system of belief.

I've got all kinds of opinions on people's beliefs and actions but that doesn't mean that I don't also support their right to have those beliefs and act on them. Precisely because I support equality between the sexes I wouldn't even think about banning or legislating something without talking to the women involved. Equality means treating women, yes even foreign and conservative women, as people deserving of respect that must be heard. I would never talk for such women because I know they can talk for themselves. Go look'em up, plenty have spoken out against a ban. Abusive acts against women are already illegal. If there are women in abusive environments the only other way to help them is by including them in society. A ban would do no such thing.

So again, just to hammer this fucking home, this ban does not help muslim women wearing a face-veil. This ban is about precluding certain people from western society, making them into a dangerous, threatening other. I know that shit won't stop with a face-veil and I won't budge a fucking inch. I am not going to legitimize the racist and Islamophobic far-right by playing along in their little game and supporting a ban that will not help anyone yet aid the hurting of quite a few. It's that fucking simple.

The source of the thing is from that "patriarchal, misogynist and controlling" religion - your words. How much of an actual choice is it when you are brought up with it and it is expected and demanded that you wear it?

I am all for equality and freedom for women. Which is the reason why I can't support a burqa within society which - in my view - goes against everything that we should stand for.

You are saying this is a racist and Islamophobic far-right thing. I'd argue that it is the Left which should finally stand up and condemn these things, since those parties are supposed to be the progressive ones that have fought against things like women having to cover themselves up. They are willing to throw away decades of struggles lately under the banner of "religious freedom" and it is rightfully costing them support.

 

[GYODX]

Maybe you should ask the women themselves why they wear it, instead of projecting your own prejudice onto them?

Because their culture is well-known to be pretty fucking misogynistic?

 

[Pusherman]

I seriously don't get it...

Honest question, can a women, any woman, legitimately choose to become a conservative salafist muslim? Do any of you supporting this ban believe that a woman can, by choice, be a conservative muslim? I'm not asking if you agree with her choice. I'm not asking if you think her choice is a feminist one, a helpful one or a rational one. I am just asking if it is a legitimate decision to make. I mean, we already know the answer. Women not born into muslims families have, as adults, decided to become salafist muslims and wear a face-veil. Are those women mentally ill? I'm not asking if you think they're misogynistic or sexist. They might very well be. After all, they've decided to believe in a patriarchal religion. But as far as I know believing in a patriarchal religion isn't forbidden. Being a misogynist isn't forbidden (hell it might make you president of the US). There are plenty of orthodox jewish women and extremely conservative christian women living in the west. Are all of those women making decisions and living lives they shouldn't? Should they be barred from making those decisions/living those lives? Or should only conservative muslim women be told their decisions are illegitimate. That their decisions aren't 'western' enough.

When I say salafism isn't always bad I mean that salafism isn't always illegal. In fact, it isn't illegal, violent or dangerous most of the time. Most of the time salafism is an apolitical minority strain of conservative Islam. Maybe you think the beliefs that make up salafism are still bad. Fair enough. I do too, in the exact same way that I think the beliefs that make up most religious conservatism is bad. In the way that I think the modern Republican party in the US and the Conservatives in the UK are 'bad'. I don't agree with them. I argue against them. But I wouldn't want to see them outlawed. I don't want to fight them by excluding them from society. The same goes for salafism.

I don't understand how anyone supporting this ban can't see that their comments are quite clearly about disliking Islam as a whole or at least a strain within Islam and not at all about the women involved. No one here supporting this ban seems even the slightest bit interested in the women involved. And the women involved are the only thing that matters on this topic. I don't give a flying fuck what someone thinks about Islam, muslims or salafism. Your opinions on those matters shouldn't play a role at all in a ban that might curtail the freedom of women.

I care about muslim women because I care about people in general but also because I am myself from a muslim family. I have debated against Islam's view on women numerous times. I have had such debates against muslim men and women. But I see those men and women as fully realized people, people that can make their own decisions. As I said, abuse is already illegal. All we can do is create an evermore inclusive society where everybody feels welcome and able to participate. This ban will not help with that. Instead, it will play into the hands of the racist and Islamophobic far-right.

But please do continue straw-manning me, pretending as if I'm calling everyone here an Islamophobe. Or just continue telling me you're not reading my posts because of a single sentence that you clearly did not understand.

 

[Audioboxer]

Conservative Christians trying to oppose same sex marriages and abortions get vehemently protested and government even eventually started to break down a lot of these once "illegal" or unobtainable practices. Praise be to Obama. Very few people bat an eyelid when liberals go ham critiquing the Bible belt and creationism in America. Islam still offers some of the same kickback that used to exist when work started on dismantling the "monolopy" the right was imposing on a women's right to make decisions about her body, and a gay couple just be able to get married and commit their love. It's the bigotry of low expectations, leave those poor religious folk alone and don't offend them...

Was there arguments, debates, upset and casualties along those paths? Yeah, there always is when humans try to work out the best solutions to situations that won't have everyone happy. We've largely got to try though and there is nothing worse when the debate can't even happen as some are dreadfully quick to throw around names as some reactionary take down to a situation they know fine well at least deserves to be discussed.

I know this is going to sound harsh but like it or not many people are coming into countries with long held progressive beliefs and at the very least are starting to shake things up a bit. Now societies should never be outside the realm of criticism and an ability to change. Look at black face with zwarte piet. If the world didn't keep getting on that shit and continue to it wouldn't have begun to enact change. However there are some things in life that do not need to change, or in this case go back the way. That being a country vehemently defending against oppression of women. As Merkel put it ban where legally possible. Any good liberal society will still allow you to largely do whatever the fuck you want inside your home. Out in public though? There are many things to consider in a society of what to try and value and defend. Some of the values being imported into certain countries do not deserve an inch of respect.