Support NeoGAF

[Partial Gamification]

this conflict always came up during the international segment of the evening news while growing up in the 1980s

After almost 4 decades of seeing the same news over and over again, we have come to the conclusion that there will never be peace between either side.

Too much hate + zero compromise = this will never end

Subtract hate from both sides:
zero compromise = this will never end - hate
add incremental compromises (in the name of a common goal):

0 = inc.comp. - hate

I'm calling that: [ (-1)*hate = love & 0:end]
end = inc.comp. + love

To quote my favorite Dr. Cornel West quote "Justice is what love looks like in public."

 

[nib95]

I've not heard that the 47 borders are internationally recognized, that would be really odd considering they weren't ever really enforced by anyone. Are you talking about the 67 borders?

They were recognised by the UN and all member states. The UN are the one's who were responsible for the territory and drawing up those borders, as the British (who controlled the land) gave them that responsibility and task.

 

[Seanspeed]

There's no need to limit that mindset to this corner of the world. Everyone feels that type of way.

No, I don't think so.

And you guys are naïve if you think this is merely the lashing out of a grieving parent. Read through the articles listed by messo.

 

[Sulik2]

This won't end until one side nukes/biological weapons and they kill each other. They have been fighting for 4000 years, its never going to stop. It is a massive human tragedy, but I don't think there is anything that can be done to stop it at this point. It just feels like both sides want to fight each other.

 

[Opiate]

Other people have criticized this map but I'd like to point out that "Palestine" was only ever the "Palestinian Mandate" enforced by Britain after World War I. Of course, if it weren't for massive immigration of Jews into what they saw as their homeland then when the Mandate ended it would have been a Palestinian state.

The second map shown is inaccurate as well. The UN Partition Plan was only ever drawn up, it was never enforced by Britain and it wasn't recognized by the Arab states or the Israeli immigrants.

Jewish Zionists were rather aggressive in 1948 but the Palestinian extremists up to that day and before that day were also very aggressively defending what they saw as their land. These maps, shown without any context, are terrible.

I'd add also that Jewish immigrants (who migrated to Israel en masse post WWII) did not all go there out of a feverish Zionism; most, as I understand it, were trying to avoid anti-Semitism. While WWII was over, it was still true that anti-Semitism was rampant, in Europe, even if it did not reach "kill them all" levels post-holocaust. Hundreds of thousands of Jews decided to leave their destroyed communities throughout Europe and find a new place to live. The British even sent Jewish immigrants to interment camps.

The point here, again, is not to suggest Israel is the good guy and all the bullies pick on them.

 

[MegaMelon]

Honestly I don't even know what to feel now. I condemn the innocent civilians on both sides getting caught up in this bullshit. One day Hamas is firing rockets, the next is Israel in revenge or vice versa and it's just endless violence and bloodshed.I wish the US and Uk and other international countries would do something but with 2 parties refusing to compromise this is just gonna keep going forever. What a shitty situation for everyone.

 

[marrec]

They were recognised by the UN and all member states. The UN are the one's who were responsible for the borders as the British (who controlled the land) gave them that responsibility and task.

Recognized by members who are currently in the UN but the 5 voting Arab states at the time didn't recognize it and the Zionist leaders at the time didn't recognize it.

The 67 borders are a much less controversial set of borders that people can agree on. I've never seen anyone mention the 47 borders as being a possibility of future peace.

 

[DY_nasty]

There's a whole Wiki just for Israel and the apartheid analogy.

I don't know where I fall in line with that, but I'll agree it's not as institutionally racist.

I really, really don't get why people want the South African comparison to work.

There are obvious, massive differences.

 

[nib95]

I'd add also that Jewish immigrants (who migrated to Israel en masse post WWII) did not all go there out of a feverish Zionism; most, as I understand it, were trying to avoid anti-Semitism. While WWII was over, it was still true that anti-Semitism was rampant, in Europe, even if it did not reach "kill them all" levels post-holocaust. Hundreds of thousands of Jews decided to leave their destroyed communities throughout Europe and find a new place to live. The British even sent Jewish immigrants to interment camps.

The point here, again, is not to suggest Israel is the good guy and all the bullies pick on them.

Oh absolutely. And if I was a Jew post or during WW2, I'd have probably done the same. Or at least moved to an allied territory instead. But from what I have read, many of the allied countries were not too keen on taking on the masses of Jewish WW2 refugee's after the war either, as their own economic and general infrastructure was already on the brink.

 

[Partial Gamification]

I really, really don't get why people want the South African comparison to work.

There are obvious, massive differences.

Are willing to accept the similarities? When you compare two things, they are not presented as equal [edit: unless those two things turn out to be equal from the comparison].

 

[Kurdel]

I really, really don't get why people want the South African comparison to work.

There are obvious, massive differences.

Because people saw apartheid as something to end, and hope to attract such an impetus from the international community if Israel is recognized as such.

 

[Razgreez]

The point is twofold:

1) Israel has not always been the aggressor. As stated, in 1948 Israel was attacked first by every one of its neighbors.

2) Palestine did not exist as a sovereign state at any point. You can't identify borders for a country that never existed.

This isn't to say Israel hasn't done some awful things (it has) or that because the country of Palestine never technically existed that no Palestine land can really exist (I'm not saying that). I am, however, saying it's considerably more complicated than "Israel has always been the bad guy and they have been gradually taking land from the sovereign people of Palestine for the last 60 years."

When has israel not been "the bad guy" though. Surely you mean israel has not always been the aggressor? Or does being the occupier have some sort of reset period after which you're no longer the "occupier" but the rightful occupant?

 

[boiled goose]

Fundamental issue is Israelis value the life of their own so much more than the life of a Palestinian.

Us vs them
nationalism
Religion

Unless this fundamental attitude changes, the conflict will continue

 

[nib95]

Recognized by members who are currently in the UN but the 5 voting Arab states at the time didn't recognize it and the Zionist leaders at the time didn't recognize it.

The 67 borders are a much less controversial set of borders that people can agree on. I've never seen anyone mention the 47 borders as being a possibility of future peace.

They don't mention the 47 borders in peace treaties because Israel has since stolen and occupied far more land. Well beyond even the 67 borders, so they've made the previously internationally recognised 47 borders a near impossibility. And whether some Arab states or Jews agreed to those borders way back or not doesn't change the fact that they were internationally recognised. Britain are the one's who tasked the UN with the job, and it was Britain who ruled the territory.

 

[DY_nasty]

Do people need comparisons that much though? Just call the Israel/Palestine situation what it is instead of grasping for a shoddy comparison at best.

No, I don't think so.

And you guys are naïve if you think this is merely the lashing out of a grieving parent. Read through the articles listed by messo.

The US just leveled two countries because of the same principles. Come the fuck on man lol

You can't expect any legitimate argument from someone who just put people in the ground. Holding that against them too? There's plenty of stuff to talk about in this conflict without having to resort to this brand of journalism and discussion.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Meanwhile on /r/neogaf

http://www.reddit.com/r/NeoGAF/comments/2b7g3t/neofaggots_believe_israel_is_committing_massacres/

What in the fucking, fuck. Reddit actually allows this kind of hate speech and homophobia? Jesus Christ Reddit.

Whoever runs that subreddit must have been a banned member, or a member of the KKK.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Do people need comparisons that much though? Just call the Israel/Palestine situation what it is instead of grasping for a shoddy comparison at best.
[...].

"Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

I'm inclined to believe a massive re-education is needed on both sides, post-WWII Germany levels of re-education.

 

[Mango Positive]

Well, one side is fighting for getting their stolen land back. Too bad that we should deem that a unreal idea.

Exactly... because the other side feels like it's their god-given right to take it. The Palestians are fighting an absolutely hopeless battle because they think God will reward them. If they were nicer neighbors, I wonder how different things would have turned out. It's still Judaism VS Islam at its core.

 

[andycapps]

A freshly crippled mind is not usually the most logical or reasonable.

Pretty much. People say horrible things when they're grieving. I hope that cooler heads will prevail there.

 

[DY_nasty]

Because people saw apartheid as something to end, and hope to attract such an impetus from the international community if Israel is recognized as such.

You don't need comparisons to do that. There shouldn't be a need to attract attention when you have something as clear and definite as what's going on in Israel. There's a damned good argument to make without having to reach.

"Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

I'm inclined to believe a massive re-education is need on both sides, post-WWII germany levels of re-education.

No one is 'forgetting' Apartheid.

This is just laziness by people. Fuck.

 

[Bel Marduk]

... but the world doesn't support Israel. If anything, mass opinion seems to have strongly turned against them. This is in the US where it is illegal to boycott Israel and nearly all of our politicians support it blindly.

 

[marrec]

They don't mention the 47 borders in peace treaties because Israel has since stolen and occupied far more land. Well beyond even the 67 borders, so they've made the previously internationally recognised 47 borders a near impossibility. And whether some Arab states or Jews agreed to those borders way back or not doesn't change the fact that they were internationally recognised. Britain are the one's who tasked the UN with the job, and it was Britain who ruled the territory.

It's true and the UN and most importantly the US officially recognized the 47 borders as the official solution to the increasing violence between Jews and Arabs in the area. I don't, however, think that anyone reasonably believes the borders should go back to the 47 resolution because the territory gained by Israel in 49 was because of aggression from surrounding Arab states.

 

[kamorra]

The point is twofold:

1) Israel has not always been the aggressor. As stated, in 1948 Israel was attacked first by every one of its neighbors. This was actually the first conflict in the war, so if you had to argue who "started it," the answer would be the Middle Eastern countries (although I don't really feel that's fair either. As always with this, it's complicated).

2) Palestine did not exist as a sovereign state at any point. You can't identify borders for a country that never existed. At least, not with that sort of specificity.

This isn't to say Israel hasn't done some awful things (it has) or that because the country of Palestine never technically existed that no Palestine land can really exist (I'm not saying that). I am, however, saying it's considerably more complicated than "Israel has always been the bad guy and they have been gradually taking land from the sovereign people of Palestine for the last 60 years."

Well, yes. I don't dispute that. But my point was that even with that in mind, in the end Israel pushed the Palestinian people out of the land and their homes. Any graphic visualization of this conflict will show exactly that and will probably look not much different from this map.
I just don't care how people try to stop these discussions by concentrating on small discrepancies and ignoring the horror and misery that going on for decades.

 

[Bigfoot]

Did we really need another thread? Especially one with such an inflammatory title and OP?

I'm sure any of us could cherry pick equivalent comments from Americans about the Afghans after 9-11. Doesn't mean that that is the way most people think.

 

[Blader]

There will never be peace. Both sides grow up completely traumatized by this conflict, losing friends and family or at least living under fear of death on a daily basis, which then pushes them to continue the fighting -- because that's all they know.

Maybe I'm just being short-sighted and cynical, but I can't see how this conflict will ever end.

 

[Partial Gamification]

[...]

No one is 'forgetting' Apartheid.

This is just laziness by people. Fuck.

What is laziness? I'm not sure what you mean. edit: that is, what you are saying is being lazy?

 

[Opiate]

When has israel not been "the bad guy" though. Surely you mean israel has not always been the aggressor? Or does being the occupier have some sort of reset period after which you're no longer the "occupier" but the rightful occupant?

I don't think they started as "the occupier." First, there were already a lot of Jews in what is now modern day Israel long before Israel was established; second, the nation of Palestine never actually existed (it was part of the Ottoman empire and then became the British Mandate of Palestine). It's really important to note that it isn't as if Jews were a powerful interest group that just showed up one day and said "screw you guys, this is ours now." In general, Jews in the late 1940s were a hated people in Europe who had nowhere to go.

While England didn't want to kill all the Jews, it wasn't especially fond of them, either. The Jews were not expressly outlawed in Allied Europe by any means, but they weren't especially welcomed and their communities had already been destroyed in places like France and eastern Europe during the holocaust.

In general, Jews were a people facing harsh prejudice in Europe even after millions of them had been systematically killed. They didn't really have anywhere to go where they would be welcomed. At the very least, as stated, the issue is complicated.

 

[Razgreez]

Exactly... because the other side feels like it's their god-given right to take it. The Palestians are fighting an absolutely hopeless battle because they think God will reward them. If they were nicer neighbors, I wonder how different things would have turned out. It's still Judaism VS Islam at its core.

I think that's rather unfair on the jews. According to what I have read and the orthodox jews I have had discussions with, israel is a land which was promised to them but due to their unwillingness, at the time, to fulfill their covenant and fight for it the decree was thus rescinded. So no, this is a zionism vs "palestinian" issue not Judaism vs Islam issue from a theological perspective

 

[foxtrot3d]

When has israel not been "the bad guy" though. Surely you mean israel has not always been the aggressor? Or does being the occupier have some sort of reset period after which you're no longer the "occupier" but the rightful occupant?

Wow, do you seriously believe this?

 

[DY_nasty]

What is laziness? I'm not sure what you mean.

Reaching for shaky comparisons for no reason other than to have something to fall back on in a discussion when there are more than enough facts for your argument to stand on it's own.

Its lazy.

 

[kamorra]

Exactly... because the other side feels like it's their god-given right to take it. The Palestians are fighting an absolutely hopeless battle because they think God will reward them. If they were nicer neighbors, I wonder how different things would have turned out. It's still Judaism VS Islam at its core.

I'm an atheist. I don't care what anyone believes in and I'm quick in blaming religion. But I don't think that this conflict is just Judaism VS Islam. I think at this point the Palestinians are fighting for their right to live.

 

[Hitokage]

I don't think they started as "the occupier." First, there were already a lot of Jews in what is now modern day Israel long before Israel was established; second, the nation of Palestine never actually existed (it was part of the Ottoman empire and then became the British Mandate of Palestine). It's really important to note that it isn't as if Jews were a powerful interest group that just showed up one day and said "screw you guys, this is ours now." In general, Jews in the late 1940s were a hated people in Europe who had nowhere to go.

It's important to note that many currents were already well underway before WW2, including settlement and the reintroduction of Hebrew as a spoken vernacular in the same area.

 

[Seanspeed]

The US just leveled two countries because of the same principles. Come the fuck on man lol

You're telling me to 'come the fuck on' when you're going to sit here and say the US 'leveled' countries?

 

[Partial Gamification]

Reaching for shaky comparisons for no reason other than to have something to fall back on in a discussion when there are more than enough facts for your argument to stand on it's own.

Its lazy.

You recognize no similarities then? Could you offer a better critique than it is lazy?

 

[ASIS]

Isreal should just leave. that's the best way to end the conflict. Enough terrorism already.

 

[EMT0]

I don't think they started as "the occupier." First, there were already a lot of Jews in what is now modern day Israel long before Israel was established; second, the nation of Palestine never actually existed (it was part of the Ottoman empire and then became the British Mandate of Palestine). It's really important to note that it isn't as if Jews were a powerful interest group that just showed up one day and said "screw you guys, this is ours now." In general, Jews in the late 1940s were a hated people in Europe who had nowhere to go.

While England didn't want to kill all the Jews, it wasn't especially fond of them, either. The Jews were not expressly outlawed in Allied Europe by any means, but they weren't especially welcomed and their communities had already been destroyed in places like France and eastern Europe during the holocaust.

In general, Jews were a people facing harsh prejudice in Europe even after millions of them had been systematically killed. They didn't really have anywhere to go where they would be welcomed. At the very least, as stated, the issue is complicated.

The thing is without the mass migrations, an Israeli state would most likely not have been feasible in the end. It's also worth recognizing that the British had no business controlling Palestine post-WWI outside of might makes right; allowing the migrations to occur is rather iffy to justify. It doesn't truly matter nowadays, these points have lost relevancy, but from the perspective of a Palestinian I can understand why they view the Israelis as occupiers. The ones running the show are usually the descendants of Ashkenazi immigrants to Israel rather than Sephardic Jews, right?

 

[marrec]

I don't think they started as "the occupier." First, there were already a lot of Jews in what is now modern day Israel long before Israel was established; second, the nation of Palestine never actually existed (it was part of the Ottoman empire and then became the British Mandate of Palestine). It's really important to note that it isn't as if Jews were a powerful interest group that just showed up one day and said "screw you guys, this is ours now." In general, Jews were a hated people who had nowhere to go.

I think this is an extremely good point. There were mass immigrations of Jews into the 'Holy Land' since 800 AD. When the Ottoman Empire fell the area was from then on occupied by Britian. Not Jews. When Britain pulled out of Mandatory Palestine in 1948 there were two states drawn up by the UN. Two states. Not one Palestinian state. The Israeli state was attacked almost the same day Britain pulled out and eventually Israeli forces took over territory in what is not recognized as the 1949-1967 borders.

The Jewish people living in what was once the Ottoman Empire and what was once the Palestinian Mandate and what then became Israel were only aggressive in kicking Arabs out of very few specific areas in 1948 according to the UN drawn up maps.

 

[DY_nasty]

You're telling me to 'come the fuck on' when you're going to sit here and say the US 'leveled' countries?

You're going to say we didn't?

Please say we didn't.

You recognize no similarities then? Could you offer a better critique than it is lazy?

You can find a similarity between apples and oranges too - they're both fruit.

Someone already posted the wiki link for the comparison earlier, and they acknowledge it's complaints as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

shaky at best

 

[Opiate]

Well, yes. I don't dispute that. But my point was that even with that in mind, in the end Israel pushed the Palestinian people out of the land and their homes.

Yes, that has happened and it is terrible. No question about that, from me.

I just don't care how people try to stop these discussions by concentrating on small discrepancies and ignoring the horror and misery that going on for decades.

Now here is where I disagree. What you describe as "small discrepancies," I would describe as important factors which change my sense of the nature of the conflict. I think virtually every position in this discussion that thinks "Israel are the good guys, Palestinians are the bad guys" or "Palestinians are the good guys, Israel are the bad guys" maintains this position by focusing entirely on the things which make the other side look bad while dismissing the things which counter their position as "small discrepancies."

 

[Buba Big Guns]

I really, really don't get why people want the South African comparison to work.

There are obvious, massive differences.

What? There are obvious similarities. Even Obama and Kerry have both said Israel will be looked at as an apartheid state if the status quo continues.

 

[Partial Gamification]

You're going to say we didn't?

Please say we didn't.


You can find a similarity between apples and oranges too - they're both fruit.

Someone already posted the wiki link for the comparison earlier, and they acknowledge it's complaints as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

shaky at best

Your inability to articulate a real critic of the comparison leads me to believe that you are deflecting the question.


You want a shaky comparison? People trembling in fear from oppression.

 

[Interceptor]

Isreal should just leave. that's the best way to end the conflict. Enough terrorism already.

It scares me to read something like this in this day and age.

 

[ASIS]

It scares me to read something like this in this day and age.

How so?

EDIT: By that i mean, what right does Isreal have in existing in the first place?

 

[MacNille]

Isreal should just leave. that's the best way to end the conflict. Enough terrorism already.

You can't be serious? You just can't be......

 

[DY_nasty]

Your inability to articulate a real critic of the comparison leads me to believe that you are deflecting the question.


You want a shaky comparison? People trembling in fear from oppression.

When the hell did South Africa rocket people with weapons provided by a superpower too hamstrung by global power balances to tell them to stop? lol

Oppression as you're using it as vague as hell and lazy. Oppression is everywhere. Oppression is not where this topic begins and ends. Just hitting that one thing over and over again is lazy.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

South Africa was a massively contingent racist state. Israel is producing MORE racist policies but it has a long way to go before it gets to that level. Key questions:

- Are people allowed to vote as citizens in Israel regardless of race (yes)
- Are people allowed to become Israel citizens regardless of race (kinda)
- Is race highly stratified and subject to state control? (yes)
- Are people allowed to operate businesses regardless of race (yes, mostly)
- Are people protected from abuse if they're from a racial minority (increasingly not)

Israel is a -very- racist country, true. But it exists in context in a very racially divided part of the world and the condition of a Jewish person in Egypt would be, let's say, subject to tensions equivalent to many of the above.

There's no getting around the fact Israel is a racist state. But there's no point comparing it to South Africa. What Israel does is sometimes worse, most often not as bad, but most of all - it's completely different. Israel is not strictly a colonial project, either.

 

[Partial Gamification]

How so?

If you have to ask... I don't want to be mean.


I'll just say that is not an option.

 

[ASIS]

If you have to ask... I don't want to be mean.


I'll just say that is not an option.

No, I really want to know. It is not an option because it is not feasible politically. But why not?

I never asked this for the opposing side and I really want to know.

 

[Partial Gamification]

When the hell did South Africa rocket people with weapons provided by a superpower too hamstrung by global power balances to tell them to stop? lol

Oppression as you're using it as vague as hell and lazy. Oppression is everywhere. Oppression is not where this topic begins and ends. Just hitting that one thing over and over again is lazy.

If you are going to ignore the similarities and dismiss them as lazy then you are not thinking critically. I think there is a lot in that wiki article that you are; glancing over, rejecting, or ignoring. Its not a parallel and I'll leave it there.

 

[marrec]

No, I really want to know. It is not an option because it is not feasible politically. But why not?

I never asked this for the opposing side and I really want to know.

Jews have been living in what is now Israel for a very, very long time. So have Arabs of course. You cannot just make all Israeli's leave without fighting on a scale that would make this look like a minor skirmish.