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[Hanmik]

A really good article about the GTA:SA Hot coffee incident..

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-30-who-spilled-hot-coffee

Not for the first time that month, Patrick Wildenborg was disoriented. With a one year-old baby in the house he was familiar with the fug of a deep sleep cut short by noise. But this awakening was different. It was prompted not by an infant's wail but the hysteria of a telephone ringing in the night. Eyes still closed, Wildenborg lifted the receiver.

“Hello, Patrick?” The accent on the end of the line was unmistakably New Yorker. “This is Rockstar. The game developer. We want to thank you for what you've done.”

On 14th July 2004 Sam Houser, the president and co-founder of Rockstar Games, wrote an email to Jennifer Kolbe, the company's operations director. At most other firms, its contents would have been considered 'NSFW'.

“These are some examples of content that will be displayed graphically:
■[Oral sex]
■Full sex (multiple positions)
■Dildo sex (including being able to kills [sic] someone with a dildo)
■Whipping (being whipped)
■Masturbation (one of the characters is compulsive; this MUST be kept)

“All of these items are displayed through cut-scenes [a "cut-scene" is a cinematic sequence during which game play stops] and in-game.”

He continued: “In [GTA: San Andreas] we are keen to include new functionality and interaction in line with the 'vibe' of the game. To this end, in addition to the violence and bad language, we want to include sexual content, which I understand is questionable to certain people, but pretty natural (more than violence), when you think about it and consider the fact that the game is intended for adults.”

On 17 August 2004, just eight weeks from GTA: San Andreas' scheduled release date, Houser wrote to the team explaining: “Graphic displays of sex cannot be shown in a Mature rated game… The sex scenes that are in San Andreas currently are going to be considered graphic."

Kolbe assembled a list of the cuts required to guarantee the game an 'M' rating. Houser replied: “This is WAY, WAY more than I expected. Not only is it insane to edit comedy like this - look at movies and everything else - to do so is going to be a lot of work and will screw with things…

"Is this really as far as we can push it? I just cannot believe that. Changing this stuff will absolutely have a time impact. Let me know if this is really the final position.”

Still smarting from the apparent injustice of the situation, Houser wrote in another email: “Can we confirm that these are the content changes that need to be made? As I mentioned to Terry [Donovan, then CEO of Rockstar Games], I was pretty shocked by the list. The cuts are everywhere. It doesn't feel like we are pushing any boundaries now. Why bother? I really, really do not want to change this stuff. It feels SO wrong at the behest of psychotic, mormon [sic], capitalist retailers.”

But the commercial imperative was clear: fail to make the cuts and the potential audience for GTA: San Andreas' could be restricted by the ratings board. The question now was how to extract the explicit material without breaking the wider game's functionality so close to release. An emergency meeting was called so that the senior managers could discuss a solution. During the meeting Houser explained: “You can't always take a thing out of a game."

He had an alternative solution: rather than remove the content, the team could 'wrap' the sexual scenes so that while the relevant code would still be present on the game disc, it would be impossible for the player to access from within the game

As he put it in an internal email sent at a later date: “We locked it away because there was no other way to get the game done on time - safely. The code is very interwoven in [GTA] and everything reacts to everything else. The impact of yanking something late is too scary.”

The decision was made. The sex would remain, but the sex would remain hidden.

please read the whole thing.. it´s really good stuff.

 

[nofi]

please read the whole thing.. it´s really good stuff.

Unlike the first few comments on the article... =(

 

[firehawk12]

It's so strange that this, and that other story about Hot Coffee, is coming out now of all times.

Maybe it's part of the GTA5 PR cycle.

 

[Choc]

It's so strange that this, and that other story about Hot Coffee, is coming out now of all times.

Maybe it's part of the GTA5 PR cycle.

Read Jacked: the GTA story

its nothing new really, although who the person is, is new

 

[firehawk12]

Read Jacked: the GTA story

its nothing new really, although who the person is, is new

Well, I'm also surprised by the "leaked" emails from Hauser anyway. Even though people are still afraid to talk about it, I wonder if this is the way they talk about it without actually saying anything on the record.

 

[Choc]

Well, I'm also surprised by the "leaked" emails from Hauser anyway. Even though people are still afraid to talk about it, I wonder if this is the way they talk about it without actually saying anything on the record.

Read the book and you will know why people are scared of Houser

guy sounds like an utter prick of a manager

 

[Dabanton]

Interesting article.

 

[mocoworm]

Well, I'm also surprised by the "leaked" emails from Hauser anyway. Even though people are still afraid to talk about it, I wonder if this is the way they talk about it without actually saying anything on the record.

They weren't leaked. They were evidence in the court case that he had to explain. It says this in the article towards the end. Companies have to keep email on record.

 

[Hanmik]

I wasn´t on Neogaf at the time of the Hot Coffee incident.. how did Neogaf react..?

 

[drkOne]

Does digital-only stuff need to go through this process? I don't mind being warned "this gets really graphical", but chopping stuff from a game pisses me off.

 

[Nibel]

What a great article - thumbs up, Eurogamer.

Some good quotes I think

“Why would a 17 year-old be allowed to run around the city bearing weapons, a game in which you're free to shoot cops and beat up women but in which you're not allowed to make love to his girlfriend after dating her for a while? It baffles me how some Americans find two people making love more damaging for a 17 year-old than all the violence in the game.”

Beyond the towering financial penalties, the emotional damage to the company appears to have been great. Rockstar has had difficulties when speaking to both the press and its own community (the company declined to comment on this article). In initially blaming hackers for the existence of 'Hot Coffee', the company alienated its most dedicated fans. That decision, made in the heat of a moment, revealed the company as ultimately unprepared to fight this ideological battle on the cultural stage, acting as a multi-million-dollar deterrent for game creators hoping to represent sex in their games.

That was such a bitch move from Rockstar

 

[firehawk12]

They weren't leaked. They were evidence in the court case that he had to explain. It says this in the article towards the end. Companies have to keep email on record.

Ah, I must have missed that detail. If this was used in court, it's pretty damning.

Does digital-only stuff need to go through this process? I don't mind being warned "this gets really graphical", but chopping stuff from a game pisses me off.

I don't think any of the digital retailers sell AO content. Steam went through that "controversy" after they removed that visual novel "erotic" game from Greenlight a while ago.

What a great article - thumbs up, Eurogamer.

Some good quotes I think

That was such a bitch move from Rockstar

It's really too bad they didn't take a stand back then. Of course, they went from that to showing a cock on screen in the GTA4 add-on, so who knows.

 

[Castor Krieg]

That was such a bitch move from Rockstar

As the article pointed out Houser was the one pushing heavily for the content, many people in Rockstar were opposed to that. I think they took "not our fault!" stance.

I don't think any of the digital retailers sell AO content. Steam went through that "controversy" after they removed that visual novel "erotic" game from Greenlight a while ago.

For anyone curious the game is called "Seduce Me", comes out next month. Tempted to pay 10EUR for it, if just to try something new.

 

[Stuart444]

Fantastic article from Eurogamer, good read.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

Thanks, reading it now.

 

[iNvid02]

that was a great read, eurogamer seem to come up with a couple of these really interesting articles each month. nice

 

[Nintendo Ate My Children]

God, video games are such utter twaddle.

It's a field for thirteen year olds, and those that have the mentality of thirteen year olds.

Cue cretins who are calling this marketing propaganda an "art form".

 

[Palette Swap]

That was such a great read. I really liked the alternating point of views.
In retrospect, the whole thing still baffles me.

 

[Perkel]

Great read.

I still find it idiotic that people call sex in games "release darkness" or evil.

DD gaming should change things a bit.

 

[Perkel]

For anyone curious the game is called "Seduce Me", comes out next month. Tempted to pay 10EUR for it, if just to try something new.

It's like buying porno. No one cares about video porno but where there is sex scene included in game then this is problem.

 

[TheSeks]

It's really too bad they didn't take a stand back then. Of course, they went from that to showing a cock on screen in the GTA4 add-on, so who knows.

Except that cock is a veina sausage so not really a cock.

Really, part of the blame is on the stigma of AO. And part of the blame is on Rockstar themselves. They blamed modders since they thought most people wouldn't unlock the content, ESPECIALLY on consoles (I have SA uncensored/patched X-box version, actually) but once someone released an unlocker for the PS2/X-box version it was over for them.

 

[Siegfried]

Amazing text! One of the best I've ever read about games!

 

[pargonta]

God, video games are such utter twaddle.

It's a field for thirteen year olds, and those that have the mentality of thirteen year olds.

Cue cretins who are calling this marketing propaganda an "art form".

it progresses every year i think. hot coffee would be acceptable today, most likely.

a limiting and cynical attitude doesn't really help, an open mind for the progressive future is better.

will read article soon.

 

[Deleted member 81567]

Did you guys get a little moist when you played it? Never played the mod, just asking.

 

[gragy10]

That 'psychotic, mormon [sic], capitalist retailers' reaffirms my suspicion that at least one Houser is a whining manchild of the highest degree

 

[Pie and Beans]

Great article, praise be to Simon Parkin.

 

[andylsun]

That was a great read. It's a shame that rockstar threw the modders under the bus, and it's interesting that rockstar are still incredibly tight-lipped about the whole thing.

It's also a shame that it didn't help the debate on sex in videogames. I'm from Europe and now live in the USA, and the US's attitude to sex and bodies is so two-faced it's untrue.

Edit: The automatic action of retailers to not stock any AO content, is insane. Some cinema chains won't show NC-17, but will show R...

 

[R_thanatos]

Article is cool .a great read really..

They made 2 mistakes:
- blamming the modders
- not realising how sex is taboo in america

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Houser and co not expecting it to be rejected for M was foolish and arrogant, but I think they're certainly philosophically right that how it's acceptable to kill rather than have sex is nothing but pure craziness.

it progresses every year i think. hot coffee would be acceptable today, most likely.

I'm not so sure it would be.

Red Dead got closer with having it fair explicit in a cutscene, but full on interactive like in SA vanilla?

 

[Castor Krieg]

it progresses every year i think. hot coffee would be acceptable today, most likely.

Recent troubles with Steam and "Seduce Me" prove it wouldn't be acceptable today. This happened on PC, on a platform owned by a private company. On consoles it's 10x harder.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Awesome article. Thanks for that!

 

[Oemenia]

Interesting but I really hate sex in most media since its done so poorly. Most of the time it's there just to appeal to teenage boys.

Red Dead got closer with having it fair explicit in a cutscene, but full on interactive like in SA vanilla?

That and GTAIV TLatD are examples of how it should be.

 

[tycoonheart]

So how did God of War get away with it?

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

So how did God of War get away with it?

Probably because it was off camera ?

 

[Castor Krieg]

So how did God of War get away with it?

http://youtu.be/Yi771bAso6A

 

[rvy]

So how did God of War get away with it?

All you hear is moaning. GTA IV has more explicit sex than GoW III. Since they got away with full-on sex scenes in MP 3, hopefully they aren't held back by ratings with GTA V.

 

[AuthenticM]

That 'psychotic, mormon [sic], capitalist retailers' reaffirms my suspicion that at least one Houser is a whining manchild of the highest degree

This quote reaffirms my belief that I need to buy this guy a beer.

 

[Weenerz]

Houser sounds like a total creep.

 

[Hanmik]

All you hear is moaning. GTA IV has more explicit sex than GoW III. Since they got away with full-on sex scenes in MP 3, hopefully they aren't held back by ratings with GTA V.

sex scenes in Max Payne 3..? did I sleep through the game..? i don´t remember..?

 

[chickdigger802]

sex scenes in Max Payne 3..? did I sleep through the game..? i don´t remember..?

Weren't there people getting railed at the strip club?

 

[Callibretto]

hmm.. how did Heavy Rain get away with it..?

 

[tycoonheart]

All you hear is moaning. GTA IV has more explicit sex than GoW III. Since they got away with full-on sex scenes in MP 3, hopefully they aren't held back by ratings with GTA V.

Been a while since I played the original GoW. For some reason I thought there was much more.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

inside job

 

[rvy]

sex scenes in Max Payne 3..? did I sleep through the game..? i don´t remember..?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfjuYhOS3XY

 

[Callibretto]

Been a while since I played the original GoW. For some reason I thought there was much more.

you get the intro of nude women in bed while Kratos approach and the camera shift to hilarious objects like melting candles, peeing boy fountain, 2 women (also nude) giving a live commentary, and ghost of sparta is probably my favorite with showing women coming and going for their turn.

 

[patapuf]

The witcher 2 had softcore sex scenes, certainly stuff more graphic than the hot cofee mod, but non interactive.

I think interactivity would still get an AO, but a sex scene itself doesn't raise any controversy anymore.

 

[pargonta]

hmm.. how did Heavy Rain get away with it..?

I think the difference here, is the player has direct interaction in the sexual act and direct visibility of it.

I would hope at some point the esrb grows up and lets that occur for an M rating. if not that, then I hope retailers physical and online grow up and allow AO titles to be sold. either way, we have to get there.

GTAV should be allowed to have a player controlled visible sexual situation. I wonder if they'll go for it this time.

i'm in the middle of the article now... man... this is one of the most epic events, i swear.
so much weight and intrigue.

 

[kodt]

The witcher 2 had softcore sex scenes, certainly stuff more graphic than the hot cofee mod, but non interactive.

Of course it wasn't near as popular and started as a PC exclusive.

I think the uproar really only happens when it is in a AAA game that they know kids will play. Despite the rating, we all know lots of kids like the GTA series and want to play it. It's not Rockstar's fault that parents let their kids play GTA games, but it's the world we live in, and as a result the media and ratings groups will treat it like a game made for kids. Interactive sex is one of the last things deemed acceptable for kids in American society.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

good ass article