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[Violet_0]

we set different standards for the West and the rest of the world

I still think the guy is weird, though

 

[exmachina64]

Seems like the author is conflating ethnicity with culture.

Generally speaking though, if you've thoroughly integrated with a culture you weren't born into, I don't see why you shouldn't be accepted as part of it.

Should some countries be "allowed" to decide that they don't want to accept outsiders?

 

[AcademicSaucer]

That only works with countries like the US, Canada or Australia tho.

 

[Shiggy]

Someone who is not ethnically Chinese will never be accepted as a Chinese by Chinese. Meanwhile, somebody whose family moved over to Europe generations ago but who has Chinese ancestors will be considered Chinese by Chinese.

It's all about 'blood' in China.

 

[sasimirobot]

....

I might be missing the part of the human brain that makes people really want to fit in to a predefined identity, because I can't figure out why it matters

This.

I also don't see what the big deal is. Being a foreigner in China, especially from a Western country has too many benefits. Why would a normal western expat even want to be considered Chinese given how it would make life 100x times harder?

 

[numble]

This.

I also don't see what the big deal is. Being a foreigner in China, especially from a Western country has too many benefits. Why would a normal western expat even want to be considered Chinese given how it would make life 100x times harder?

For someone that lives in China for 15-20 years, how would it make life 100x harder? If they recognize dual nationality for instance, I don't see how it would make life 100x harder. There are some benefits that aren't available for foreigners, such as the housing fund benefit (which is 30k RMB/year in large cities), you can avoid a 15% tax on purchasing property in Hong Kong, you can invest in stocks and all Chinese companies, you can get subsidized education, etc.

 

[Monocle]

Should some countries be "allowed" to decide that they don't want to accept outsiders?

I don't know, but I mistrust tribalism and nationalism. Humans tend to be better the less we burden ourselves with divisions.

Obviously this doesn't mean I'd want to give a free pass to cultural appropriation. If there's a line, we can locate it with respect and empathy.

 

[sasimirobot]

For someone that lives in China for 15-20 years, how would it make life 100x harder?

I mean the preferential treatment for too many things to list.

I would assume getting married to a national would clear up the rest of what you posted also. But actually even if it didn't I have absolutely no interest in any of those things and don't know if they would even effect your "average" expat.

 

[hirokazu]

He can culturally identify as Chinese if he wants. Unfortunately a lot of people also take into considerate whether your ethnicity, whether you’re Han or from an ethnic minority and that’ll be impossible for him. But if he can get citizenship then he’ll technically be Chinese regardless?

 

[numble]

I mean the preferential treatment for too many things to list.

I would assume getting married to a national would clear up the rest of what you posted also. But actually even if it didn't I have absolutely no interest in any of those things and don't know if they would even effect your "average" expat.

You are probably talking about informal preferential treatment based on seeing a white face or not wanting to bother with communicating with a white face. What would stop those benefits from happening if a white person had Chinese nationality?

I don't see how getting married to a national would give any of those benefits I listed, unless you mean using someone's name to obtain benefits, and maybe a person does not want to marry a national, such as an expat couple or someone that doesn't want to marry.

The average expat that lives in China for 15-20 years may be interested in those things. Just like a Chinese-born person living in the US for 15-20 years would be interested in things only given to Americans.

 

[sasimirobot]

Maybe I reading it wrong, but I took it as a dude wants to accepted as Chinese (not just Chinese citizenship) , that brings all the baggage along with it.

The conformity to Chinese culture that would be expected for things like marriage, diet, parents, huokou, education, etc... Would be, for lack of a better way of putting it, insane for your average westerner.

All that just so I can trade some stocks in HongKong? nah.

 

[M3d10n]

Don't know about that. I've lived in the US almost my entire life yet people always ask where I'm "really" from. My sister was born here and gets the same questions. It gets pretty annoying after a while.

I would just start asking people back, adding random stereotypical countries based on their appearance guesses to the question to spruce it up.

"I'm from Maine, and you? Let me guess, Croatia?"

 

[Chairmanchuck]

I mean, he does have some weird views, but the general idea isn't wrong. If someone from China has lived for 20 years in Germany, speaks the language, has a passport etc. you'd be kind of an asshole to not consider that person German.

Its almost impossible to get a chinese ID as a foreigner.

The average expat that lives in China for 15-20 years may be interested in those things. Just like a Chinese-born person living in the US for 15-20 years would be interested in things only given to Americans.

The average expat, if he has enough guanxi, considering if he lived there for 15-20 years he should, can still easily get those things. Not just "as legal" as a Chinese.

But if he can get citizenship then he'll technically be Chinese regardless?

As a foreigner you need to be a really big shot to get chinese citizenship or be a celebrity.

 

[The Lamp]

Wait is this guy angry that his geographically close peers wont' consider him real chinese because he's a white canadian

so he makes the strawman of a chinese woman raised in america who doesn't identify as Chinese for his defense on why he should be considered chinese

...

I think it's more like, people who immigrate to America are fairly considered Americans (except by the bigots) after they assimilate into the culture. Trudeau's government and society encourages the same for Canada. However, in countries like China, even after you have assimilated into the culture and language, you are always seen as an outsider because of the race you look. Edit: and I guess also because it's almost impossible to become a Chinese citizen

 

[Chairmanchuck]

However, in countries like China, even after you have assimilated into the culture and language, you are always seen as an outsider because of the race you look.

Do you think that guy though assimilated into the culture?

He is fetishizing it, nothing more. Its like if a Chinese comes to Germany and then has WW2 posters, a Tank model collection, walks around in old Hugo Boss SS suits etc.
(And yes. There are a few Chinese I know who fetishize Germany and love all the WW2 stuff and thinks Germans are still like that).

Its the same with weebs. Imagine some foreigner in Japan walks around in a Hakama every day even when attending meetings etc. Most people wouldnt say he assimilated into the culture.

Heck. That guy in the OP even says he is "more chinese than Chinese", because he still likes Confucius and attends meetings in imperial garbs.

 

[numble]

Maybe I reading it wrong, but I took it as a dude wants to accepted as Chinese (not just Chinese citizenship) , that brings all the baggage along with it.

The conformity to Chinese culture that would be expected for things like marriage, diet, parents, huokou, education, etc... Would be, for lack of a better way of putting it, insane for your average westerner.

All that just so I can trade some stocks in HongKong? nah.

You can already trade stocks in Hong Kong. Not Shanghai or Shenzhen though. It isn't true that he is saying he wants to conform to those things--he is talking about eliminating race as the primary conception of the term Chinese. That is why he says conformity to language, culture, education, or even nationality is not accepted as establishing you are Chinese, only race.

Its almost impossible to get a chinese ID as a foreigner.

The average expat, if he has enough guanxi, considering if he lived there for 15-20 years he should, can still easily get those things. Not just "as legal" as a Chinese.

As a foreigner you need to be a really big shot to get chinese citizenship or be a celebrity.

I don't know any expat that has got those things. I do know expats that were caught trading Chinese stocks and had to dump the stocks.

You can get Chinese nationality through Hong Kong, and you don't need to be a big shot or a celebrity: http://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/artic...-chinese-citizenship-minorities-left-out-cold

 

[MHWilliams]

No, he acknowledges that the current concept of Chinese is race-based. You are harping on one of his paragraphs where he explains why the current concept is not based on language, culture, or legal concepts of nationality.

Because again, that paragraph calls into question his perception of what Chinese is. This is why multiple people have brought it up.

And it's not like I'm the only one to understand and sympathize with part of his argument, but run into that stumbling block in his statements. As an example for another poster:

On the first example, yes. If someone moved to China and wants to be a Chinese citizen, they're Chinese and honestly should be treated that way if they want. In all likelihood, people will see them as white or foreign, and it won't go away for generations. That sucks and that attitude should change. I agree with the author on this point.

But reducing "being" Chinese to ... wearing traditional garb and studying a single kind of Chinese religion, is ridiculous. I am not going to immigrate to Japan, put on a kimono to a business meeting, read about samurai, and use that to prove I am more Japanese than other Japanese people. While the author has a legitimate point, this part just sounds like he's fetishizing a culture.

I understand where this guy is coming from because I do understand the stupid ideas some Chinese people hold about Chinese purity. That you're not "really" Chinese unless you're Chinese by blood. Even my own parents express this idea - one of my friends, whose family considers themselves China as they immigrated from there, was not considered "pure" Chinese by my parents, all because "originally" their grandparents were from Vietnam. It didn't make any sense to me. There's also the idea that "mixed blood" Chinese people aren't the same as those who are not mixed, even if you're mixed with other Asians. There's all sorts of insane and frankly downright racist ideas that revolve about Chinese blood, and that's not even getting into the whole where were you born thing. So yes, I personally think those ideas should stop, and that in general we shouldn't gatekeep sincere people who want to join our group (this applies for all things). However, I am definitely skeptical of what this particular guy is trying to say about being Chinese when his example includes being the only person to wear "traditional Chinese clothing" to meetings. Like... what.

 

[numble]

Because again, that paragraph calls into question his perception of what Chinese is. This is why multiple people have brought it up.

And it's not like I'm the only one to understand and sympathize with part of his argument, but run into that stumbling block in his statements. As an example for another poster:

I do know that multiple people bring it up, but it is a 1 paragraph example to explain that that is not what is the conception of Chinese.

He says current conceptions of "Chinese" are 1) not based on conceptions of possessing a specific Chinese citizenship--(his examples are the Canadian labeled as a Chinese and that foreigners getting Chinese citizenship would still not be considered Chinese) 2) not based on conceptions of the ability to speak a Chinese language (his examples are foreigners that speak Chinese and populations in China that do not speak Chinese) and 3) not based on conceptions of commitments to a specific Chinese culture (his examples are Chinese people that say he is committed to Chinese culture, but do not think that such a commitment makes him Chinese).

He spends the next 8 paragraphs talking about why the current conception of the term Chinese is tied to race.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Identity is the property of the self, not of wider society. Indeed, the fact that society believes it can force identity on someone due to their appearance is how you get quite a lot of our bigotry and phobia.

Identity should be a fluid thing.

 

[lupinko]

This guy can be Chinese but he would need to give up his Canadian citizenship. China doesn't allow for dual citizens, and yes, Chinese is also a nationality as mentioned numerous times already.

 

[travisbickle]

Should some countries be "allowed" to decide that they don't want to accept outsiders?

Are you talking about Britain?