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Why Games Don't Feel Like Art

Nepenthe

Member
I hope I'm not drudging up bad memories and hard feelings. I also hope my ideas and definitions read clear through all of this. The "2064: Read Only Memories" thread has jogged a fleeting thought I've had for awhile and I'd like to talk about it.

First, it's important that I make a distinction between "being" and "feeling," because I've believed wholeheartedly since I've had a concept of what "art" was that games fell into the category along with everything else like books and movies and comics and stuff. They employ multiple artistic disciplines and primarily exist to invite audiences to have an emotional experience. They're also experimenting with more complex narratives similar to films. So of course they're art.

However, I think part of where people like Ebert were basing those counterarguments from is in the fact that games are still "different." It's not because of the interactive element; we've had interactive art installations since before games were a thing, and you can make the argument as Folding Ideas does that all art is interactive because the act of mentally engaging with a film or physically turning the pages of a book can fall under the definition too. It's not the rampant corporatism and nickle-and-diming either; after all, look at the clusterfuck that is Hollywood.

I think why games don't feel like art is because there remains this barrier, this stigma of sociopolitical criticism "not belonging" in the space of gaming. And as a traditional artist, it honestly bothers me.

Art naturally says stuff, with or without us trying to. That's because it's made by humans, or at least within a space controlled by humans. And us humans don't have the luxury of having a non-human point-of-view. We're all products of an innumerable amount of arbitrary historical and present decisions, cultural values, political realities, advertising campaigns, pop culture, biology and everything else (of which social media only exacerbates) made and categorized by other humans that makes any point-of-view completely divorced from humanity- and subsequently social and political issues- impossible. To ignore one's past and present environment when creating art is like trying to convey the physical feeling of crossing a black hole's event horizon first-hand.

When one ignores the human context within which art exists, discussing art suddenly becomes almost indistinguishable from talking about something that's instead meant to serve a utilitarian purpose like a footstool. True, a footstool is drafted and built by artisans and can be decorated, but I feel intent is the defining factor here. A footstool that exists in a space meant for shorties like me to step up and get higher and nothing else isn't a work of art. However, if I re-purpose that footstool in a shortie statue, then it transforms into art since the intent is not for making a job more efficient but to perhaps make a statement on the struggle of shorties, or even just to make an eye-pleasing statue.

If people are being outright attacked for talking about the inherent sociopolitical statements and ramifications of games, the same things that enthusiasts and critics of films and literature mull over at the dinner table on a Tuesday, if people are waving off this kind of critique as "bringing politics into games" as if the medium is somehow diametrically opposed to politics and thus will be harmed from the mere mention of these concepts simultaneously, well, what honestly makes games different from toys?

A toy's purpose- let's say a Hot Wheels car- is to preoccupy a child in play, the same way a game does. They come to exist as a result a multiple artistic disciplines, but for the most part their purpose leans towards the utilitarian purpose of play versus engagement in the car on the merits of its physical qualities and what those qualities mean from a thematic or a sociopolitical perspective. The car isn't painted red because it intends to visually convey "passion" or "rage." It's painted red because red is a simultaneously eye-catching and popular color. And you'd all look at me like a fool or call me some hipster art student if I tried to wrangle any meaning I felt from the color of some generic Hot Wheels car. A toy is more in line with a footstool than a work of art.

If I'm going to be dismissed or, in the worst case scenario, harassed because I decided to make an artistic or political critique about any given game instead of discussing whether or not I simply think a game is fun or not, then to me games cease to "feel" like art and "feel" more like overpriced toys. The gatekeeping just chops the full breadth of the conversation one can have about any given game down at the knees. Again, art says stuff. It's imperative that we be allowed to say stuff back. Art requires that openness for spirited and thoughtful dialogue, the invitation to allow a person to speak aloud about what the art says to them on an emotional and critical level. The day I'm not allowed to say a Giorgio de Chirico painting (think Ico's JP box art) calls to mind a vast, unsettling loneliness is the day I feel painting would stop feeling like art. The day I'm not allowed to say Michael Bay's annoying obsession with unearned American nationalism and racial stereotypes is the day movies stop feeling like art.

And the day I can say something as simple and perhaps observant as Sonic Unleashed's eating mechanic thematically ties into its themes of positive cultural representation and camaraderie, or something more pressing and socially challenging such as Resident Evil 5's use of generic African settings uncomfortably recalls highly negative stereotypes of Africans and black people as disposable savages, without the risk of dismissal or outright hostility, is the day games will finally start feeling like art.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I was literally thinking the same thing upon reading the thread title and was talking about this with an artist friend of mine earlier today. The gaming community has literally the most self defeating mentality out of any artistic medium in terms of how it handles critique, political ideas, equality, racism, fascism, and anything that requires legitimate critical thinking about basic human decency. So so many games are about opposing basic ideals like fascism, racism, sexism, etc., (every fucking empire in your goddamn JRPGs are an allegory for fascism), yet whenever those elements are humanized, or gasp, even talked about overtly then suddenly, it's "keep politics out of my games." People can handle incredibly basic metaphors for politics yet suddenly push back against anything besides a basic message that a middle schooler could think up. This needs to stop as this medium ages, as this was not the case with film, or literature. Stop wanting to be treated like a child who opposes critical thinking. If this medium is gonna grow up then the audience has to too. So I say to you sir, with all that great content in the OP and your recent truth bombs in so many other threads. Fucking preach!
 

Fat4all

Banned
I was literally thinking the same thing upon reading the thread title and was talking about this with an artist friend of mine earlier today. The gaming community has literally the most self defeating mentality out of any artistic medium in terms of how it handles critique, political ideas, equality, racism, fascism, etc., so I say to you sir, fucking preach!

word

And good fucking OP, OP.
 

nicanica

Member
How do you have artists making art for 8 hours a day for two years and the outcome not be art?

-
Jerry Holkins
 
I came in to this thread all primed to be dismissive thinking you were going to just find a new way to posit the "Are games art?" question, but the OP is outstanding

I feel very insular in that the group of friends I speak with regularly about video games are very small, so we aren't dismissive about a lot of views and theories, and no one is insane to just deep dive on a seemingly forgettable moment or mechanic in a game

But, looking at the larger conversation around video games, I agree wholeheartedly with the OP
 

Firestorm

Member
Just because the video game community is filled with manchildren doesn't mean games aren't art. You'll find some of these people when it comes to movies too where they feel blockbusters shouldn't address the issues that affect us. Comics are another space filled with these types of people. You gotta concentrate on making games for the rest of us and hope that as games become an older medium, we have more people who appreciate what they can do.

I completely understand your frustration though. Whenever I'm on GAF and I see people who are supposedly "hardcore gamers" telling developers to keep politics out of gaming I just can't understand what's going on.

As different outlets were doing their Top Games of 2016 lists I was really glad to come across this one that ended its intro with

Here are some of my highlights from 2016, with the usual emphasis on politically-aware/ underrated/experimental works:

http://www.molleindustria.org/blog/molleindustrias-highlights-from-2016/

Ended up purchasing a game on the list (Revolution 1979: Black Friday) along with another game I'd been meaning to pick up before the Steam sale ended (Orwell) that fell along similar lines.
 

LotusHD

Banned
I was literally thinking the same thing upon reading the thread title and was talking about this with an artist friend of mine earlier today. The gaming community has literally the most self defeating mentality out of any artistic medium in terms of how it handles critique, political ideas, equality, racism, fascism, and anything that requires legitimate critical thinking about basic human decency. So so many games are about opposing basic ideals like fascism, racism, sexism, etc., (every fucking empire in your goddamn JRPGs are an allegory for fascism), yet whenever those elements are humanized, or gasp, even talked about overtly then suddenly, it's "keep politics out of my games." People can handle incredibly metaphors for politics yet suddenly push back against anything besides a basic message that a middle schooler could think up. This needs to stop as this medium ages, as this was not the case with film, or literature. Stop wanting to be treated like a child who opposes critical thinking. If this medium is gonna grow up then the audience has to too. So I say to you sir, with all that great content in the OP and your recent truth bombs in so many other threads. Fucking preach!

This is such a good post, especially the bolded.
 
Just because the video game community is filled with manchildren doesn't mean games aren't art. You'll find some of these people when it comes to movies too where they feel blockbusters shouldn't address the issues that affect us. Comics are another space filled with these types of people. You gotta concentrate on making games for the rest of us and hope that as games become an older medium, we have more people who appreciate what they can do.

Basically. I don't let other people determine how I enjoy or view games.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
What is art?

Art is, simply put, anything really. To games are not art is false.
The point is that games don't feel like art because of the constant push back from the community when it comes to genuinely critiquing aspects of the medium. Mainly those that don't have to do with technology. Like the OP says, with something like film, critiquing film is literally a regular Tuesday dinner conversation.
Literally my BD party on Friday capped off with a genuine discussion of how well Zootopia conveyed it's allegory for racism.
However, such a conversation on this very forum would be met with a lot of "stop putting politics in games" bullshit.
 

Nepenthe

Member
For clarification: I'm not saying that games aren't art in the sense of any definition of art you could pull from a dictionary. I'm saying that games don't feel like art because they aren't fully treated like art by its own enthusiasts.

I can make a feminist statement about a film, a book, an image, a movie, a song, a comic, or almost anything else, and there's a more readily understood context where critics and enthusiasts of these mediums will not feel attacked or feel like I'm applying a statement to the mediums that is inherently incompatible with their existence.

But when Anita Sarkeesian makes a feminist statement about games? She gets fucking rape threats because "games aren't about feminism, and they're not sexist; they're about fun!"

It's an extreme example, yes, but it's emblematic of an attitude I find to be wanting one's cake and eating it too. I feel if people are sincere about games being called art, then that means they must let games finally be responsible for allowing the dialogue about their sociopolitical and thematic meanings that other mediums embrace. No more "keep politics out of games!" No more "I only play for fun!" No more "You're thinking about this too hard!" No more of trying to undermine and erase the discussion that art and its audience have with one another. Otherwise, I don't feel like you can meaningfully call games "art" anymore than you can call a toy or a ticket stub or a drinking straw "art."
 

Veal

Member
Tremendous OP and I'm in full agreement. We need more discussions like this, honestly.

Edit: this became so much longer than I was anticipating...

I think some of it stems from from the "outsider" effect that "nerdy" interests tend inspire in both the people that actively engage and to the observer not related. It wasn't that long ago that playing video games and being self identified as someone who takes more than a passing interest made you unfit socially. You could be ostracized and made fun of, breeding resentment.

We also can't forget the massive amount of negative media coverage video games typically get. Usually if a game is making headlines in mainstream media, it's something embarrassing, negative or just reminding people just how much money is being made selling overgrown toys to overgrown children. This too adds to the resentment of the "gamer".

Today's gamer is usually incredibly defensive of the hobby, to it's detriment. We can't discuss games as art because there are those who seek to always reduce the conversation, possibly as a defensive mechanism to keep the hobby "pure" as they see it. Accepting games as art means having to hear criticism about something they consider a part of their identity and their "safe space".
 
Games are products that contain art. If art is something driven by pure self expression, then games are not art. Games have mechanics meant to be fun, meant to pander, meant to sell, with ties to major corporations. They do contain graphic design which you may call art.

One may create games that are meant to be expressive artistically, though, of course. And one may create a video game and put it in an art museum. And games like Journey are sure meant to only incite emotion, rather than for you to get good.

In the end, it's semantics, but I'd stand by games being products that contain art. Much like buildings and phones.
 

peakish

Member
Campster made a similar point in an Errant Signal video that gamers (although it's always a bit uncomfortable to speak of generalised groups) want games to get the recognition of being art, with none of its powers. That games can deal with mature topics and provoke insight and emotional experiences, but they should still just be "fun games" and not try to say something. He made the specific example of Bioshock Infinite which uses racial segregation as a backdrop for its story, but God forbid that you try to analyse its story and politics.

Edit: My paraphrasing probably doesn't do the video justice, here's a link.
 
People often aren't respectful of criticism because critics often aren't respectful of the game/players because players often aren't respectful of criticism etc.

It's a chicken and egg conundrum of antagonism, but I like to think we're making progress, slowly but surely.

One example of this lack of respect comes from reviewers setting a standard of not actually completing the games that are being criticized, leading to skewed, surface level criticisms instead of the meaty, insightful criticism that you expect from other mediums. Imagine if Ebert only watched the first thirty minutes of every movie.

Games are products that contain art. If art is something driven by pure self expression, then games are not art. Games have mechanics meant to be fun, meant to pander, meant to sell, with ties to major corporations. They do contain graphic design which you may call art.

One may create games that are meant to be expressive artistically, though, of course. And one may create a video game and put it in an art museum. And games like Journey are sure meant to only incite emotion, rather than for you to get good.

In the end, it's semantics, but I'd stand by games being products that contain art. Much like buildings and phones.

Wouldn't that mean that books and movies are also not art, because they are products being sold?
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Most games not being art is mostly a perception thing for me. I've played single-person developed games at exhibits in galleries and viewed those as art because they were created and displayed purposely as something to be viewed as such. I can't view "normal" games in a similar way. Has nothing to do with what commentary people make on them.

Probably a bad example but it's like the difference between pieces posted on a wall in a gallery exhibit vs. postcards stacked up on the shelf at a grocery store.
 

patapuf

Member
I don't know if i would put all that on the audience.

For one, until very recently most cultural analysis of games was about how bad of an influence they are and mostly done by people who clearly had little knowledge about what they are talking about.

Then, people even being interested in doing said analisys seriously is a recent thing. Games being a normal part of media consumption is true for people that are somwhere between 25-35 years old now. That rather limits the audience of people even interested in taking a deeper a look in the first place.

Lastly i don't feel all critisism is met with much blowback. It's mostly ignored (even on GAF, good think pieces rarely get long threads).

The only type of critisism that does blow up is mostly stuff about feminism and rascism and i may be wrong but i feel that that type of critisism - when it concerns mainstream properties - is currently met with blowback no matter the medium.
 

Zolo

Member
Is art only art if you like it and consider it good? Or to put it another way, is there no such thing as crappy art?
 

ViviOggi

Member
Yup there's still this infuriating pushback against any kind of meaningful critique coming from gamers, and it's not just the GG types. Videogames are the first medium to emerge in a world of seamless online communication and I feel like that's part of the issue, since at this point we should be way past growing pains.
 

TissueBox

Member
The day you're thinking of, OP, may not come until a paradigm shift of some kind comes in to trigger a gradual evolution of the perception of the medium to a considerable number and type of people. Right now games are just so many things at once, that the artistic/cultural aspects are drowned out in the noise, in turn pushing the people who'd be interested in discussing such things away and the thoughts and concepts related to that side of gaming into a dusty forgotten shelf -- not totally, of course, but to the extent that it doesn't mean much.

Even with recent games like TLOU or Gone Home or Papers, Please, you see certain statements being made and pedigrees being set, but the public consciousness has not budged, only changed clothes. But who knows, maybe one day such a thing can be taken seriously in substantial effect and amongst a credible circle of people.
 

Feep

Banned
To be sure, games are eight thousand percent art, but I agree with the OP in that the discussion around them is often incredibly juvenile.

Still, those communities (this one?) *are* out there, and the discussions are, too. So, depending on where you are, it can feel very different.
 

patapuf

Member
The point is that games don't feel like art because of the constant push back from the community when it comes to genuinely critiquing aspects of the medium. Mainly those that don't have to do with technology. Like the OP says, with something like film, critiquing film is literally a regular Tuesday dinner conversation.
Literally my BD party on Friday capped off with a genuine discussion of how well Zootopia conveyed it's allegory for racism.
However, such a conversation on this very forum would be met with a lot of "stop putting politics in games" bullshit.

Don't you feel that's more something about your friends rather than the whether something is art or not? I know exactly who i can have a conversation with about this stuff and who i don't - and that has very little to do with the medium.
 

m_dorian

Member
I can't say that all videogames can be classified as art but there are certainly some that i value them as such.
Papers, please and the Stanley Parable for example.
 
Just wanted to say Nepenthe you've been on fire in these last couple threads. Grade A posting.

It's late and I'm in bed in my phone, so I can't get too deep into this now... I'm not sure I agree with that but it's an interesting thought, that our meta knowledge of our community's perception of a work affects its perceived qualities on a personal level.

On a similar note, though, we also have a meta-based ability to recognize games that are more likely to be discussed as "artistic," much in the same way that we can identify films from their trailers as being "Oscar bait" or not.
 
I can't say that all videogames can be classified as art but there are certainly some that i value them as such.
Papers, please and the Stanley Parable for example.

Would you say a Michael Bay film is art? What about a kid's crayon drawing?

Seems odd to me to exclude certain games as not art.
 
I wouldn't budge too much in face of the push-back. As long as games like Undertale, The Last Guardian and Inside can continue to thrive, reach an audience, and get dissected, I'd say the gaming is on the right path.

It's not the medium's artistic merits that these people rail against, but the subject matter and their readings. The OP mentioned Michael Bay's works, while the man reached the status of becoming a self-parody, I recall a lot of folks lashing out against the reception of the first two Transformers movies. They were "just a fun turn-off-your-brain dumb action flicks" and seeing sexism or racism in it was trying to push an agenda and looking down on those that enjoyed it. Last year we had the Ghostbusters reboot that was perceived as a politically driven attack on masculinity. As long as a medium touches on anything outside of the supposed norms, fragile and egocentric people will feel like someone is invading their territory. Comic books seem to have been doing more bold things in the past few years and in spite of not following that scene at all, it is still brought to my attention due to the explosion of complainers on Twitter and comment sections.

Threats and harassment to creators and performers are sadly enough pretty common, and even more so for critics. As communication technology advances, this only seems to become more prevalent and visible. I personally tend to stick to my bubbles where the discourse is of a certain standard, but I am aware that this allows the problems outside of it to fester.
 

DocSeuss

Member
games are a medium, art is crafted through a medium

it is not possible for all games to be art, but some games can be art

games are to art what film stock or paper and ink is to art.
 

PrimeBeef

Member
Isn't that the way of all art though? A painting has no intrinsic value, its only value is how people react to it.
Bingo. I don't consider games art. I don't think they need to be. I believe there is a ton of art that goes into making games. I also don't think games need to be considered art. Some people think it will legitimize the hobby if video games are considered art. I say, who cares? Enjoy what you do regardless of what people think.
 

EGM1966

Member
Well as discussed many times by far the majority of games aren't art nor are they trying to be, so the fact the majority of the medium isn't art of course impacts perception hugely. Most games are synonymous with Tennis or Chess or Football: they exist as games with defined gameplay mechanics and they are not intended to convey any themes or artistic meaning. They're games in the pure sense of the word.

Some videogames (to distance that evolving descriptor from games) are targeting artistic themes and using classic artistic mechanisms. These tend to get buried under the perception of majority as above, plus to be frank in many cases they are pretty low end art attempts: the best artists don't seem to be drawn to videogames yet. Some though are starting to stand out.

So yeah, most videogames don't feel like art and I doubt that'll change as most simply won't be art (and deliberately so).

Myself I find I agree with Ebert: games by their nature are not art in isolation. The medium could be used for art but this then raises the question is it still a game or is it a piece of art with some oddly placed gameplay?

Ultimately I think the answer lies with understanding that the term videogame no longer means its an actual game anymore. Perhaps we need better terminology.
Some are though. Life is Strange (for all its flaws) is a recent example of a videogame targeting thematic content and artistic intent over gameplay.
 
To be sure, games are eight thousand percent art, but I agree with the OP in that the discussion around them is often incredibly juvenile.

Still, those communities (this one?) *are* out there, and the discussions are, too. So, depending on where you are, it can feel very different.

Ehhh. Depends on the game, the topic, and the crowd.

I don't think there's really a community specifically for more nuanced critique.
 

Nepenthe

Member
Hmm. I think before we get into the age-old debate of whether or not games are art (something I'd kinda like to avoid because it's not really the main point), one thing I think would be pertinent to bring up is the regulation of game content by its creators, review boards, and the public, aka censorship, that big scary boogieman of ours.

I think if games weren't understood by almost everyone as art on some sort of base level, whether that means they just include art or are just as much artworks as Renaissance paintings, then I don't think the fight against their judicial regulation would've been so heated and passionate back in the day. After all, most people don't care about regulations for utilitarian products and industries and things unless they have some sort of deep investment in them.

But with games? It was a televised firestorm, a fight characterized as being between basically the entire American public and gamers' forgotten whipping boy Jack Thompson.

There is "something" about games that invites people to want to treat them like art when it's convenient- in this case that means a greater access to a games library with a wider range of content- but to suddenly shed the label when it's not, such as in conversations that may come across as antagonistic to gamers through criticizing particular titles in an uncomfortable way. It's as peakish said, gamers want "games to get the recognition of being artwork, with none of its powers."

People champion the "artist's intent" all the time on here and elsewhere (different, more angrier topic for a different time) whenever a tit or a bit of blood is taken out, but they have no qualms with trying to create an environment that's hostile towards and thus effectively censors discussing what that tit or bit of blood means within the context of the game's narrative. So at the very least, the way gamers treat games is incredibly hypocritical and deserves some introspection. Either games aren't art, at which point I can drop all of my snooty investment and thus play them as if they nothing but toys to be bought and discarded once I'm done with them, or games are art, and gamers have relent on stifling meaningful criticism. I don't think you can comfortably have it both ways.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
Is art only art if you like it and consider it good? Or to put it another way, is there no such thing as crappy art?

By that logic the Royal Academy of Arts' Summer Exhibitions are sorely lacking in any art.
 

Zojirushi

Member
I agree that the community is a problem but to a certain degree developers have themselves to blame.

Give people enough dumbass shooters over an extended period of time and you've raised yourself an audience who never really knew that games can be something else.
 

Fat4all

Banned
I agree that the community is a problem but to a certain degree developers have themselves to blame.

Give people enough dumbass shooters over an extended period of time and you've raised yourself an audience who never really knew that games can be something else.

The best thing to come out of the mediocre-military-binge of the PS1-PS2 era was their deconstruction in 'Spec-Ops: The Line'.
 

m_dorian

Member
Would you say a Michael Bay film is art? What about a kid's crayon drawing?

Seems odd to me to exclude certain games as not art.

It is entirely subjective. Some games/films/paintings/drawings do not have the same effect to me as others do. A work of art is a product that can dig deep into my self and stimulate my inner feelings and emotions.
A CoD game might look good but i can not value it as art, at least as what i interpret as art.

However, there are some video game works that stand out by their own to be considered as art but, i believe that, the majority of videogames, no matter their artistic elements, are not art, at least not what i think a work has to be qualified as art.
 

mortal

Gold Member
An an amazingly insightful post, Nepenthe.

Gaming to me is worthy of being referred to as an art from. Like any any art from, there is good art, and there is bad art. It is always worth the trouble to ask the question regardless of what one's views are. I feel it is through the conversation that we collectively understand things.

Gaming is a relatively young medium when compared to that of film, literature, or music. A lot of amazing work has been done within gaming up to this point, still there is so much untapped potential. That to me, is incredibly exciting. So it's important that we keep having that conversation, it helps open up the possibilities of what defines gaming in the collective consciousness. The conversation inspires the creative minds that design games to explore new territory and more unconventional ways to engage the player. The conversation encourages producers and publishers to take more risks in more experimental and bolder projects. The conversation opens up gamers insight and introduces us to new gaming experiences.
It allows opportunity to break new ground with taboo themes or concepts not only limited to gaming, but to other medium.

Gaming is a relatively young medium, even more importantly it is an incredibly unique medium. It's an amalgamation of so many artistic elements. And the thing that sets it apart from all other mediums is the ability to directly interact with those elements with agency. The means of interaction even varies from game to game.
The best of these games challenge our critical thinking and how we consciously engage with dimensional space and thematic concepts, at times even subconsciously. It's deeply human.

Gaming can even be a vehicle for storytelling and character studies, whether it be grounded in reality or set in a fantasy landscape. With storytelling through gaming, one can gain a completely new perspective in a narrative one wouldn't be able to have otherwise.
Literally putting you in the shoes of an individual. At times in 3rd person, at other times in the 2nd person narrative sense.

The possibilities are literally limitless. What gaming can become is only limited by us, and the creative restrictions we place on the medium out of fear of change. Fear is all too common in gaming. Among the industry, among the gaming community. Fear of controversy, fear of change, fear of the different.
To me gaming is an interactive art from, but for me the more important question is what makes a certain game good art as opposed to bad art.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Don't you feel that's more something about your friends rather than the whether something is art or not? I know exactly who i can have a conversation with about this stuff and who i don't - and that has very little to do with the medium.
Consider we're on a literal video game discussion forum there are hundreds of posts saying "Keep politics out of my games plz." And here's the thing, these aren't things that it's just something I can talk to with my friends with, tons of people are willing to talk about these things in other mediums in a casual setting. Most people are adults with at least some semblance of critical thinking skills and a willingness to discuss the themes and implications of a work.
 

TissueBox

Member
I agree that the community is a problem but to a certain degree developers have themselves to blame.

Give people enough dumbass shooters over an extended period of time and you've raised yourself an audience who never really knew that games can be something else.

It's the people as a whole yes, at least if we're abiding by the theory. It would be unfit I think to call out a deficiency of understanding on gamers' part without also acknowledging the equivalent role that devs have played. It's like games are an art without artists and with enthusiasts who hang their Mona Lisa's on refrigerators, not because games deserve to be, but because they're just so used to being put there.
 

Catvoca

Banned
I don't have the time to do a proper response but I just have to say this is a great, great post. It's not something I'd consciously considered before but I think you might be on to something. I think this idea also plays into the viewing of some games as "artistic" (Journey or Inside) but not viewing others as art (big blockbusters) because a lot of the audience isn't willing to look at those games as art, or examine them critically.
 
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