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[Windows Central]Embracer Group is showcasing the dangers of irresponsible consolidation, which stands in stark contrast to Xbox.

Darkness_Arises

Darkness_Arises

Member
Heisenberg007 said:
Milk Eww GIF by Hope Nation
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He is still arguing that Gamepass is profitable in the layoff thread, while simultaneously saying that games like HiFi did not generate a profit. I wonder what caused the paradigm shift in consumer purchasing habits that has led to good games both 1P and 3P barely selling on MS platform? I believe that he has long since dissociated with reality.
Also, the insufferable people who keep on bringing up how the industry is unsustainable and it needs to crash and burn need a reality check. The industry was doing well until MS decided to launch GP. Now, consumers on mainstream platforms do not want to buy games. Nintendo has escaped this, their insular fanbase will happily pay 60$ for a literal turd with the Nintendo seal of quality on it. I have no idea how anemic low budget shit tier games like Mario Tennis, Mario Party, Mario Strikers, etc sell millions of copies at 60$.
 
leizzra

leizzra

Member
For me the difference between Embracer and Microsoft is that second one has MUCH more money to try to save those studios. I know that we live in a world where profit and making investors happy clouds everything else. Still I believe that M$ could have bite the bullet and give them a chance (underlining that to them). Or at least try to sell those companies (well with Arkane that would've been harder but they could change their name).

Besides that both companies are managed by stupid people and after their mistakes they are still in charge of them.
 
YeulEmeralda

YeulEmeralda

Member
leizzra said:
For me the difference between Embracer and Microsoft is that second one has MUCH more money to try to save those studios. I know that we live in a world where profit and making investors happy clouds everything else. Still I believe that M$ could have bite the bullet and give them a chance (underlining that to them). Or at least try to sell those companies (well with Arkane that would've been harder but they could change their name).

Besides that both companies are managed by stupid people and after their mistakes they are still in charge of them.
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Microsoft somewhere in the 360 gen decided to become HaloGearsForza.

Anything not mainstream/non American that doesn't sell at least 5 million is dead weight to them.
I switched to playstation back then because I saw the writing on the wall.

This all goes back a long time.
 
Lucifers Beard

Lucifers Beard

Member
baphomet said:
You all realize Ninja Theory is next right?

As soon as Hellblade 2 releases they'll be in the crosshairs.
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I hope not but can see it happening. I have no idea how this game will do but there has been no marketing for it from what I've seen.

I don't think Xbox have a clue what they're doing. If the game doesn't meet their expectations, they'll close the studio and put the blame on them when actually Xbox have done absolutely fuck all to help the situation.
 
GHG

GHG

Member
YeulEmeralda said:
Microsoft somewhere in the 360 gen decided to become HaloGearsForza.

Anything not mainstream/non American that doesn't sell at least 5 million is dead weight to them.
I switched to playstation back then because I saw the writing on the wall.

This all goes back a long time.
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It was Phil. I'm not even joking. Interview from 2008 when justifying shutting down another studio:

"As we know, those kind of efforts - especially in today's videogame business - require resources. You need to have a lot of people behind your franchises that are really driving platform success. For us, today, it's important that we have those investments in those huge franchises that we're building - things like Fable, things like Banjo, Halo, Gears."

www.gamesindustry.biz

Phil Spencer - Part One

Last week, Microsoft announced that it would be closing Ensemble Studios, the developer behind the long-standing and hu…
www.gamesindustry.biz www.gamesindustry.biz
 
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MacReady13

MacReady13

Member
FunkMiller said:
Fifty buck, digital only, 8hr long AA game stretched to AAA for some reason.

Yeah, they're fucking toast.
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Is it “free” on game pass? Cause if it is, who in the fuck will buy that shit? Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with their sub service and it’s ruining them. They’ve trained their sheep into not buying games anymore and they find themselves fucked.
 
FunkMiller

FunkMiller

Gold Member
MacReady13 said:
Is it “free” on game pass? Cause if it is, who in the fuck will buy that shit? Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with their sub service and it’s ruining them. They’ve trained their sheep into not buying games anymore and they find themselves fucked.
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Yep. Day one release. And if GamePass is stalled and not making money (which seems to be the case) then Hellblade 2 isn't going to make a lick of difference.

Ninja Theory are fucked. I just hope they've got a decent get out plan among them, and they can leave en masse to start another independent studio.
 
phant0m

phant0m

Member
baphomet said:
You all realize Ninja Theory is next right?

As soon as Hellblade 2 releases they'll be in the crosshairs.
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Yup. Game too way too long in development and is not going to sell systems nor have the sales/“engagement” figures MS wants.

Has a PS port been confirmed yet?
 
Astray

Astray

Member
Jez Corden is the man who had Phil Spencer on for an exclusive interview and didn't push back on his limp-dicked denial that Microsoft is going multi-platform.

He's the biggest clown in the gaming reporting scene by a distance.
 
leizzra

leizzra

Member
YeulEmeralda said:
Microsoft somewhere in the 360 gen decided to become HaloGearsForza.

Anything not mainstream/non American that doesn't sell at least 5 million is dead weight to them.
I switched to playstation back then because I saw the writing on the wall.

This all goes back a long time.
Click to expand...

Yes. There was a time when people were saying that Microsoft will buy exclusives and developers and will ruin the industry. In some capacity M$ was doing that at the first half of X360 era (yet I don't think it was ruining the industry back then), they were pouring money into the brand. Then they stopped, as I'm guessing it didn't get them the numbers they wanted and they had different focus (Kinect). And since then Xbox was vegetating and slowly loosing.

Now they returned to investments with buying studios since 2018 but it was all for Game Pass, not the Xbox itself. That's why I had my worries, it was the next thing that they grab onto. It wasn't for Xbox as a gaming console, but for service that was supposed to make them the number one with much higher profits then any other gaming company.

Now, GP is not where they need it to be so they are yet again changing their plans. I'm guessing that investment has stopped for some time again, so the bran will be vegetating yet again (but form lower level then it was in X360 era) and mostly overshadowed by ActiBlizz. Until next "brilliant" idea. The bad thing is that some if not the most of devs will be shut down in the process.

I think that they could've been successful if they only give it more time and be ok with slower growth of the brand. As for me I always preferred PlayStation over the rest, but I have fond memories from first Xbox and 360. And I do think that competition is a good thing.
 
thismeinteil

thismeinteil

Member
MacReady13 said:
Is it “free” on game pass? Cause if it is, who in the fuck will buy that shit? Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with their sub service and it’s ruining them. They’ve trained their sheep into not buying games anymore and they find themselves fucked.
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And it was because Sony and Nintendo (though it was mainly aimed at Sony) were smart enough not to take the bait. MS wanted a race to the bottom, that only they could have afforded. If they had followed, they probably would have gone bankrupt, only leaving MS, who would have then slowly evolved GamePass into something more in the line of what PS Plus is, now. Mainly, no more Day 1 for exclusives and big 3rd party games.

But, because they didn't follow, MS is stuck with an expensive as hell service model that they don't want to keep going, but have to or they'll look like fools and cheats. Something that makes them nowhere near the same kind of profit their old model made just selling games because it conditioned their fans that they don't have to buy games anymore. Hence them having to go 3rd party on systems where people actually buy games.
 
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Topher

Topher

Gold Member
Negotiator101 said:
Destroying the industry? How's that? In Microsoft case they are giving these Studios financial stability and letting them create without the burden of paying the bills.

Also from Phil Spencer, We have a service that is financially viable, meaning it makes money, in Game Pass. We’ve put a lot of money into the market, over a billion dollars a year supporting third-party games coming into Game Pass

Over 1 Billion to funding third-party games is not how you destroy an industry 🤣 Quite the opposite 🙄
Click to expand...

Episode 7 Wow GIF by Wrexham AFC
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
leizzra said:
For me the difference between Embracer and Microsoft is that second one has MUCH more money to try to save those studios. I know that we live in a world where profit and making investors happy clouds everything else. Still I believe that M$ could have bite the bullet and give them a chance (underlining that to them). Or at least try to sell those companies (well with Arkane that would've been harder but they could change their name).

Besides that both companies are managed by stupid people and after their mistakes they are still in charge of them.
Click to expand...
Satya could have gotten some change from between his sofa cushions and saved those studios. MS made over $29 billions in profit last quarter.

They can buy all the studios they bought over last 10 years with just the profit from this year and have $billions left over.

The shit they pulled was cruel and unnecessary, same as firing tens of thousands of employees when earning record profits.
 
jm89

jm89

Member
StreetsofBeige said:
The key difference is MS can afford it. Embracer cant. No other big gaming corporation is dumping studios and employees floodgates open like Embracer.

Gamers might think MS buying Activision and Bethesda were overpriced. Same goes for Sony buying Bungie at $3.6 billion.

If those are overpriced acquisition, on what scale do you explain Embracer buying Gearbox for $1.3 billion? And them buying Asmodee (a company that made board games and some PC games) for about $3 billion when that company was originally acquired by a different company for only $150M 7 years earlier?

I remember a gaffer in a different thread talking about Embracer and his thought was the company isn't even interested in running a gaming company long term. But instead just want to buy studios cheap when interest rates were low and sell them off later for higher prices. Probably true.

Embracer Group - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

As of September 2023, Embracer Group has 129 internal game development studios and is engaging more than 15,000 employees and contracted employees in more than 40 countries.[82][83]

THQ Nordic
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🤡
 
M

mdkirby

Member
FunkMiller said:
Fifty buck, digital only, 8hr long AA game stretched to AAA for some reason.

Yeah, they're fucking toast.
Click to expand...
Not only, that, but its marketed as a blockbuster epic, more akin to god of war than basically a walking sim with bits of combat. It's Xbox's 'The Order 1886' through and through, and that pretty much killed ready at dawn, until Meta swooped in and grabbed them. It's 100% not gonna be most peoples cup of tea, and is gonna deviate wildly from Joe publics expectations, even more so among xbox players. For me tho, I love walking sims and short games I can bash out in a weekend and be done with, so I expect I'll like it. But it will in no way justify what must now be a sizeable dev cost.
 
Nydius

Nydius

Member
BiohazardX95 said:
Articles that aged like milk. Ninja theory is next.
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And unless Avowed turns out to be a masterpiece, I’d expect Obsidian to be in the crosshairs as well.

Though they may not shut them down and, instead, mandate that Obsidian exist solely as a Fallout spin-off developer (a fate that might be worse than being shut down).

I wouldn’t recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for Outer Worlds 2, despite Microsoft teasing it nearly 3 years ago.
 
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Bry0

Bry0

Member
GHG said:
It was Phil. I'm not even joking. Interview from 2008 when justifying shutting down another studio:

"As we know, those kind of efforts - especially in today's videogame business - require resources. You need to have a lot of people behind your franchises that are really driving platform success. For us, today, it's important that we have those investments in those huge franchises that we're building - things like Fable, things like Banjo, Halo, Gears."

www.gamesindustry.biz

Phil Spencer - Part One

Last week, Microsoft announced that it would be closing Ensemble Studios, the developer behind the long-standing and hu…
www.gamesindustry.biz www.gamesindustry.biz
Click to expand...
It’s hilarious because every single one of those franchises has been on a downward trajectory in quality(gears to a lesser extent) and popularity since.
 
GHG

GHG

Member
Bry0 said:
It’s hilarious because every single one of those franchises has been on a downward trajectory in quality(gears to a lesser extent) and popularity since.
Click to expand...

For whatever reason he seems to think the "throw more cooks and resources" approach works for gaming.

Despite it having failed with their previous set of tent pole franchises, he's about to repeat the exact same mistake with a bunch of new ones that they've just acquired.
 
diffusionx

diffusionx

Gold Member
StereoVsn said:
Satya could have gotten some change from between his sofa cushions and saved those studios. MS made over $29 billions in profit last quarter.

They can buy all the studios they bought over last 10 years with just the profit from this year and have $billions left over.

The shit they pulled was cruel and unnecessary, same as firing tens of thousands of employees when earning record profits.
Click to expand...
It's not Microsoft's job to "save" studios, they're not running a charity. Ultimately every dollar they spend and every dollar they make they have to account for to the shareholders. I'm not saying this to be glib, it's just how it is. Microsoft's plans have changed, obviously, and that's the risk of selling out - you put your company at the mercy of someone else and it can be discarded when no longer useful. Tango Gameworks was useful to them when they just felt like they needed tons of content to keep people subscribed to GamePass, but now that they don't think of it that way, they're gone. That simple.

Also too it's not like the industry hasn't gone through this consolidation/breakup cycle many times. As I always say, a dev studio is just a name on the building. The talented people that made the games you like still exist and if they want to they will keep making games.

Nydius said:
And unless Avowed turns out to be a masterpiece, I’d expect Obsidian to be in the crosshairs as well.

Though they may not shut them down and, instead, mandate that Obsidian exist solely as a Fallout spin-off developer (a fate that might be worse than being shut down).
Click to expand...
Yea, especially with the newfound normie love of Fallout, it would not surprise me at all if Obsidian becomes the "Fallout dev".
 
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StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
diffusionx said:
It's not Microsoft's job to "save" studios, they're not running a charity. Ultimately every dollar they spend and every dollar they make they have to account for to the shareholders. I'm not saying this to be glib, it's just how it is. Microsoft's plans have changed, obviously, and that's the risk of selling out - you put your company at the mercy of someone else and it can be discarded when no longer useful. Tango Gameworks was useful to them when they just felt like they needed tons of content to keep people subscribed to GamePass, but now that they don't think of it that way, they're gone. That simple.

Also too it's not like the industry hasn't gone through this consolidation/breakup cycle many times. As I always say, a dev studio is just a name on the building. The talented people that made the games you like still exist and if they want to they will keep making games.
Click to expand...

Shareholders won’t know or care about particulars of a small studio like Tango. Neither would profits or losses from said studio matter.

And hell, the studio even produced good games. It’s not their fault that they got buried with terrible marketing, GamePass and exclusivity (until very late PS5 release).

So this is all on MS Management.
 
diffusionx

diffusionx

Gold Member
StereoVsn said:
Shareholders won’t know or care about particulars of a small studio like Tango. Neither would profits or losses from said studio matter.

And hell, the studio even produced good games. It’s not their fault that they got buried with terrible marketing, GamePass and exclusivity (until very late PS5 release).

So this is all on MS Management.
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well that’s not true at all, of course people notice. And a new game from Tango would likely cost nine figures to make (over $100 million) because that’s how much games cost.Money has an opportunity cost and that money spent is money not spent somewhere else. So if MS doesn’t think spending that money gets them to where they want to go anymore, they’re gone.

Again I’m not saying this to be glib or smart guy it’s just how it is. MS management’s initial mistake was thinking they could build GamePass into this business where they needed all these studios constantly generating content because it doesn’t work that way.
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
diffusionx said:
well that’s not true at all, of course people notice. And a new game from Tango would likely cost nine figures to make (over $100 million) because that’s how much games cost.Money has an opportunity cost and that money spent is money not spent somewhere else. So if MS doesn’t think spending that money gets them to where they want to go anymore, they’re gone.

Again I’m not saying this to be glib or smart guy it’s just how it is. MS management’s initial mistake was thinking they could build GamePass into this business where they needed all these studios constantly generating content because it doesn’t work that way.
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People notice if the money is wasted and games are perpetually delayed. Tango made games on time and overall they weren’t really bombing.

Again, this is a corporation which produces over $29 bil of profit. It’s spending $100bil on AI. Their shareholders don’t give a flying f about a $100 mil spend over a few years.

If MS is going 3rd party for the most part, smaller games made on time by studios like Tango can supplement titles that take more money and spend longer in dev.

Personally I think they just don’t want to deal with smaller studios anymore, their revenue or profits don’t matter, and MS will start jettisoning these devs as projects get wrapped.

IMO, Hellblade studio is going to be next. It’s going to be CoD, Halo, Forza, Gears and Elder Scrolls/Doom/Fallout gaming for the foreseeable future with a few titles like Indiana Jones, Blade or Fable thrown in here and there with studios shutdown if games don’t immediately hit.
 
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Topher

Topher

Gold Member
diffusionx said:
well that’s not true at all, of course people notice. And a new game from Tango would likely cost nine figures to make (over $100 million) because that’s how much games cost.Money has an opportunity cost and that money spent is money not spent somewhere else. So if MS doesn’t think spending that money gets them to where they want to go anymore, they’re gone.

Again I’m not saying this to be glib or smart guy it’s just how it is. MS management’s initial mistake was thinking they could build GamePass into this business where they needed all these studios constantly generating content because it doesn’t work that way.
Click to expand...

StereoVsn StereoVsn is right. Tango's numbers are not revealed for stockholders to see. What they do see is non-ABK numbers broken out and not performing nearly as well as ABK itself. But that's as deep as it goes. Microsoft is not accounting for every dollar in their report to stockholders. No corporation does that.
 
Tams

Tams

Member
leizzra said:
For me the difference between Embracer and Microsoft is that second one has MUCH more money to try to save those studios. I know that we live in a world where profit and making investors happy clouds everything else. Still I believe that M$ could have bite the bullet and give them a chance (underlining that to them). Or at least try to sell those companies (well with Arkane that would've been harder but they could change their name).

Besides that both companies are managed by stupid people and after their mistakes they are still in charge of them.
Click to expand...

Microsoft could also have percevered with Windows Phone (or even Windows Mobile - the 2000s one) by throwing money ay developers. Zune too.

But they are so wealthy, they don't have any incentive to do so for that long, so give up too soon. We're seeing it with Xbox and Surface now.
 
diffusionx

diffusionx

Gold Member
Topher said:
StereoVsn StereoVsn is right. Tango's numbers are not revealed for stockholders to see. What they do see is non-ABK numbers broken out and not performing nearly as well as ABK itself. But that's as deep as it goes. Microsoft is not accounting for every dollar in their report to stockholders. No corporation does that.
Click to expand...
Well, no, he's not right, at all. Obviously companies have an incentive to bury stuff they don't want their shareholders to see, but shareholders also know this and have an incentive to find this out, by any means necessary, and they do, and it gets reflected in the price one way or another. I mean, at some point someone says, "hey why is this studio still open and why are you funding them when they don't fit into this strategy you laid out at the last call." And it's not JUST Tango GameWorks, like, "hey all y'all need to go but Tango you get to stay and act as our charity case." Well, it doesn't really work that way.

In a broader sense though, maybe I am not making my point well so I will try a different way. MS owned Tango, and all these other devs, as part of a strategy. The amount they spent on Hi-Fi Rush was to advance that strategy. If that strategy does not apply anymore, then they don't even have an incentive to spend $1 on Tango Gameworks, because that $1 could be spent on something to advance that new strategy. Even if Tango's game is good and on time and on budget, if it doesn't get MS to where they want to go, it doesn't really matter.

I do agree though that MS doesn't want to deal with managing all these studios anymore, and they also don't think it gives value or drives growth. GamePass has stalled. They released a huge game last year and nobody cared within 2 weeks. Forza landed like a wet fart.
 
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Topher

Topher

Gold Member
diffusionx said:
Well, no, he's not right, at all. Obviously companies have an incentive to bury stuff they don't want their shareholders to see, but shareholders also know this and have an incentive to find this out, by any means necessary, and they do, and it gets reflected in the price one way or another. I mean, at some point someone says, "hey why is this studio still open and why are you funding them when they don't fit into this strategy you laid out at the last call." And it's not JUST Tango GameWorks, like, "hey all y'all need to go but Tango you get to stay and act as our charity case." Well, it doesn't really work that way.
Click to expand...

Factually, stockholders don't have access to the data you are talking about and they can't get access to it. Stockholders see what we all see. If their "incentive" takes them down a road to "find this out, by any means necessary" then they are looking at prison time. If a stockholder is asking why a studio is still open then it is because numbers were revealed that shows that the studio was struggling. None of that happened here.
 
diffusionx

diffusionx

Gold Member
Topher said:
Factually, stockholders don't have access to the data you are talking about and they can't get access to it. Stockholders see what we all see. If their "incentive" takes them down a road to "find this out, by any means necessary" then they are looking at prison time. If a stockholder is asking why a studio is still open then it is because numbers were revealed that shows that the studio was struggling. None of that happened here.
Click to expand...
No, if a stockholder is asking why a studio is still open then it is because the studio is still open, they still have a public presence, their employees are on LinkedIn, they can drive past the building and see the sign in front, so on and so on. They can get data on how specific games performed without MS explicitly telling them this or that. Somehow guys like Grubb and Shreier can find information about companies that they don't want us to know, and do it consistently - you really think that people with millions or billions riding on a company can't do it? Like, we knew a year ago that Hi-Fi Rush underperformed while Microsoft was explicitly saying the opposite.

In any case this is ignoring the main point. A company won't keep a studio open if it doesn't advance their perceived interests anymore, period, ever. Like, MS didn't shut down Mojang. They didn't shut down 343 even though Shitfinite was a total mess.
 
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Topher

Topher

Gold Member
diffusionx said:
No, if a stockholder is asking why a studio is still open then it is because the studio is still open, they still have a public presence, their employees are on LinkedIn, they can drive past the building and see the sign in front, so on and so on. They can get data on how specific games performed without MS explicitly telling them this or that. Somehow guys like Grubb and Shreier can find information about companies that they don't want us to know, and do it consistently - you really think that people with millions or billions riding on a company can't do it? Like, we knew a year ago that Hi-Fi Rush underperformed while Microsoft was explicitly saying the opposite.

In any case this is ignoring the main point. A company won't keep a studio open if it doesn't advance their perceived interests anymore, period, ever. Like, MS didn't shut down Mojang. They didn't shut down 343 even though Shitfinite was a total mess.
Click to expand...

No, journalists ask questions that gamers want answered. Stockholder's concerns are entirely different. I don't think we are on the same page so I'll leave it there.
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
Topher said:
No, journalists ask questions that gamers want answered. Stockholder's concerns are entirely different. I don't think we are on the same page so I'll leave it there.
Click to expand...
Yep, most of the stock is held by institutional investors who barely know what the f Xbox is as a concept.

To think that anyone gives an f about this minor sort of an issue when talking about $3trillion corporation is delusional.
 
Topher

Topher

Gold Member
Bry0

Bry0

Member
GHG said:
For whatever reason he seems to think the "throw more cooks and resources" approach works for gaming.

Despite it having failed with their previous set of tent pole franchises, he's about to repeat the exact same mistake with a bunch of new ones that they've just acquired.
Click to expand...
I’m still holding a grudge because of what they did to FASA interactive
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
Topher said:
Last quarterly earnings call transcript is online. No one asked a thing about gaming.

www.fool.com

Microsoft (MSFT) Q2 2024 Earnings Call Transcript | The Motley Fool

MSFT earnings call for the period ending December 31, 2023.
www.fool.com www.fool.com

Awkward John Krasinski GIF by Saturday Night Live
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Yep, Gaming is what, like a few percentage points on yearly revenue? AI, Cloud, data center build outs, M365 subs, that’s what investors will be interested in.

Gaming basically never was particularly profitable (if ever) for MS (even in 360 days), so it’s not something that’s going to be thought about much.

Last year, they brought in $236B. Gaming was $15B so somewhere in neighborhoods of 6%. And let’s not even mention profit side.
 
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