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[sendit]

VFXVeteran

This gen already peaked at AC:V according to notified user.

 

[mckmas8808]

All the sudden?
There is a difference if you look a "movie" or your character is reacting to a controller.
And again, this is a tech demo. A full game made like this would be incredible expensive (after all someone has to design this) and would not fit on the consoles drive.

You don't think God of War was incredibly expensive to make?

Yet that thing was not 4k -not a big deal- and just 30fps (deal breaker). Also, thats a demo. On a real videogame, theres AI, menus, NPCs, etc etc etc.

Luckily for most gamers, solid 30fps games are NOT a deal breaker.

 

[Ten_Fold]

True, the last big leap was ps2/ps3. I think this gen will look more clean, less load times, and everything running more smooth. Again, we are soo early so it’s hard to say. I wasn’t super impressed with the ps4 when it came to graphics, I was wanted a system that could do 1080p.

 

[Astral Dog]

No reason we can't see a PS3 to PS4 leap here. If developers put the budget in the right places i.e. not all in resolution and make use of mesh / primitive shaders and SSDs we will end up seeing some truly amazing games.

Blooper should speak for themselves.

Its interesting, but games already look gorgeous.

This gen is going to be massive in terms of CPU capacity and fast memory managment, but the actual RAM is the smallest jump yet.

Basically from 5GB - >8GB if we consider the Series S as the base

 

[Astral Dog]

Just go back to 1080p and make great looking games with great framerates.

Its the numbers game dear, the big companies are far deep into the 4K game to quit

 

[mckmas8808]

Its interesting, but games already look gorgeous.

This gen is going to be massive in terms of CPU capacity and fast memory managment, but the actual RAM is the smallest jump yet.

Basically from 5GB - >8GB if we consider the Series S as the base

Why are we considering Series S as the base? The Xbox Series consoles shouldn't be the generation-defining place to look, to be honest.

 

[Zug]

If 60fps becomes standard, the visual gap won't be that significant for sure.
But TLOU2/RDR2 grade graphics with a slightly better resolution and 60fps ? Still a major improvement for me, It would make me buy multiplatform games on console instead of PC.

 

[mckmas8808]

If 60fps becomes standard, the visual gap won't be that significant for sure.
But TLOU2/RDR2 grade graphics with a slightly better resolution and 60fps ? Still a major improvement for me, It would make me buy multiplatform games on console instead of PC.

Guys...............60 fps will NEVER EVER become standard. It.....will.......NEVER....happen! EVER!

 

[VFXVeteran]

Who really can compare to the devs named above?

Several man. Ubisoft, CDPR, Rockstar, iD Software, Square Enix, Capcom, etc.. etc..

 

[Hunnybun]

This gen already peaked at AC:V according to notified user.

You have to know what you're talking about to know what he's talking about.

One of the worst looking games on next gen consoles is also the best looking one they'll ever make.

It's so obvious when you think about it.

 

[Elcid]

Several man. Ubisoft, CDPR, Rockstar, iD Software, Square Enix, Capcom, etc.. etc..

None of the games by these people look as good as first party Sony games except maybe the new Resident Evils. and FF7R. They might be large in scope but graphically, Sony first party kills it.

 

[VFXVeteran]

None of the games by these people look as good as first party Sony games except maybe the new Resident Evils. and FF7R. They might be large in scope but graphically, Sony first party kills it.

That's your opinion dude.. we can do this all day. Not going to engage in people who will ONLY believe that Sony 1st party devs can make good looking games.. it's a waste of time.

 

[Hunnybun]

Its interesting, but games already look gorgeous.

This gen is going to be massive in terms of CPU capacity and fast memory managment, but the actual RAM is the smallest jump yet.

Basically from 5GB - >8GB if we consider the Series S as the base

On paper, but the multiplier effect the SSDs have on the RAM actually available per scene is huge and basically becomes a generational leap.

Guys...............60 fps will NEVER EVER become standard. It.....will.......NEVER....happen! EVER!

Never? Come on. We're slowly moving there. If these performance modes are widely used then it'll probably become standard by next generation.

Just because a trade off is currently being made doesn't mean that same trade off will ALWAYS make sense. Otherwise we'd still have the 20fps that was standard on the N64.

Imo it clearly suits developers for 60fps to become more widely understood, and demanded by casual gamers. It's a much easier use of resources than spending time crafting ever more detailed worlds. So they have a vested interest in making it happen.

And I don't buy that casual gamers aren't interested in higher frame rates. They probably just don't UNDERSTAND what they imply - that's not the same thing. I think in reality what the casual audience actually doesn't care about is native 4k or accurate RT reflections.

I'd bet that if you showed laymen a minute of footage of Miles Morales running in each of the graphics modes, like 90%+ would favour the frame rates. The jump in fps is simply much more apparent to an untrained eye.

So it's really just a matter of transmitting this information to players. Once they realise what more fps MEANS, they'll start to care. And having optional performance modes and media almost entirely in video format rather than screen shots etc is a great way to start disseminating the message.

 

[mckmas8808]

You have to know what you're talking about to know what he's talking about.

One of the worst looking games on next gen consoles is also the best looking one they'll ever make.

It's so obvious when you think about it.

What game are you talking about? This sounds like a mystery.

Never? Come on. We're slowly moving there. If these performance modes are widely used then it'll probably become standard by next generation.

Just because a trade off is currently being made doesn't mean that same trade off will ALWAYS make sense. Otherwise we'd still have the 20fps that was standard on the N64.

Imo it clearly suits developers for 60fps to become more widely understood, and demanded by casual gamers. It's a much easier use of resources than spending time crafting ever more detailed worlds. So they have a vested interest in making it happen.

And I don't buy that casual gamers aren't interested in higher frame rates. They probably just don't UNDERSTAND what they imply - that's not the same thing. I think in reality what the casual audience actually doesn't care about is native 4k or accurate RT reflections.

I'd bet that if you showed laymen a minute of footage of Miles Morales running in each of the graphics modes, like 90%+ would favour the frame rates. The jump in fps is simply much more apparent to an untrained eye.

So it's really just a matter of transmitting this information to players. Once they realise what more fps MEANS, they'll start to care. And having optional performance modes and media almost entirely in video format rather than screen shots etc is a great way to start disseminating the message.

Never is right. Because you have to understand that "performance" mode and 60 fps is a preference. It's not a floor for which all games "NEED" to be made at.

 

[N1tr0sOx1d3]

Imagine an inept dev speaking on behalf of the generation. We've already seen what to expect from PS5 at least.

I’m really hoping this is possible, but isn’t the limiting factor storage? I could be wrong but I think I remember a game using these kind of assets would be in the 100’s of GBs. Happy to be proven wrong

 

[mckmas8808]

And I don't buy that casual gamers aren't interested in higher frame rates. They probably just don't UNDERSTAND what they imply - that's not the same thing. I think in reality what the casual audience actually doesn't care about is native 4k or accurate RT reflections.

I'd bet that if you showed laymen a minute of footage of Miles Morales running in each of the graphics modes, like 90%+ would favour the frame rates. The jump in fps is simply much more apparent to an untrained eye.

So it's really just a matter of transmitting this information to players. Once they realise what more fps MEANS, they'll start to care. And having optional performance modes and media almost entirely in video format rather than screen shots etc is a great way to start disseminating the message.

Not to be rude, but are you at least 30 years old? I'm asking because somethings are easy to understand why they won't change if you've been gaming since the PS1 days or so.

 

[Zug]

Improving graphics significantly also incures creating significantly more detailed assets.
Game budgets already have increased a lot in the past 10 years, aren't we begining to hit diminishing returns levels ?
RT is a performance hog though, so no need to make fancy assets for the "30fps quality modes", flashing reflexions will do. Handy.

 

[mckmas8808]

Improving graphics significantly also incures creating significantly more detailed assets.
Game budgets already have increased a lot in the past 10 years, aren't we begining to hit diminishing returns levels ?
RT is a performance hog though, so no need to make fancy assets for the "30fps quality modes", flashing reflexions will do. Handy.

Tools like UE5 will make some of this easier. But it's also why Sony is charging $70 for some of their games to make up for this cost that you speak of.

 

[Hunnybun]

What game are you talking about? This sounds like a mystery.



Never is right. Because you have to understand that "performance" mode and 60 fps is a preference. It's not a floor for which all games "NEED" to be made at.

I didn't say it was a necessity. 30fps isn't a necessity either. But I don't know why it should follow from that that it'll never be the standard frame rate. I mean, at some point, fidelity returns from extra GPU power will be so diminished that it'd be crazy NOT to use it for higher frame rates.

But personally I think 60 will be standard earlier than that. Probably next generation, with this generation seeing large scale adoption of optional modes.

 

[Hunnybun]

Not to be rude, but are you at least 30 years old? I'm asking because somethings are easy to understand why they won't change if you've been gaming since the PS1 days or so.

I'm 38.

I think there's a will to make 60fps happen, but it's been difficult for various reasons.

Obviously the first 3d consoles made it near impossible. But because of the PS2 design we did actually get a significant increase in 60fps games then.

But then we had the leap to HD which again made things hard.

Personally I think 60 might have become more common last time, but we had the terrible CPUs holding things back.

Now we're seeing powerful and balanced consoles again, and hey presto, a proliferation of 60fps games and performance modes.

I'm just hoping that this 8k thing never takes off, because it's clearly totally unnecessary. If it doesn't, and we've basically reached the end of the race for more pixels, then that's another reason to expect developers to take the hit and double performance next time.

This whole issue isn't as simple - nowhere near as simple - as "developers will always target graphics!!" or "casual gamers don't care about frame rates".

And, not to state the obvious, but never is a really, really, long fucking time.

 

[Kumomeme]

if devs this gen can pull those 'hypothical' possibilities with ssd, like portal, instantly load entire new area by just turn away the camera, super fast character traversal, richer environment especially open world, etc then we might see something special, beyond visual improvement.

 

[Pimpbaa]

We still have diminishing returns, but those mid-gen refreshes kinda makes comparisons to previous gens unfair. Imagine if the PS5 and XSX were the first 4k consoles, especially coming from something like the standard XB1.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Didn't we already see the Unreal Engine 5 demo on PS5? What else looks even remotely close to that? How is that not a massive leap?

This is an absurd take IMO.

Aren’t most tech demos usually massive leaps anyway when first unveiled? Look at some of those early PlayStation and XBox tech demos from the past that took forever to match or even come close to on the consoles. Maybe we’ll see something approach that Unreal 5 demo years into or by the end of this generation?

I think it’s also about talent though. One developer can say that reaching a certain level is an insurmountable task while another much more talented developer can achieve unparalleled results that exceed all expectations.

 

[onQ123]

We still have diminishing returns, but those mid-gen refreshes kinda makes comparisons to previous gens unfair. Imagine if the PS5 and XSX were the first 4k consoles, especially coming from something like the standard XB1.

But Xbox One X & PS4 Pro games still look like Xbox One & PS4 games & sadly right now Xbox Series S/X & most PS5 games also look like Xbox One & PS4 games with higher resolutions / frame rates & other settings.

It's too much money on the table for a publisher to put all their chips on Xbox Series X or PS5 right now because PS4 user base is over 100 million alone. When PS5 sell over 20 million you will see devs giving it their all.

Just imaging if someone made a 1080P Xbox Series X & PS5 game

 

[Pimpbaa]

But Xbox One X & PS4 Pro games still look like Xbox One & PS4 games & sadly right now Xbox Series S/X & most PS5 games also look like Xbox One & PS4 games with higher resolutions / frame rates & other settings.

I would argue that the leap from xb1 to xb1x was pretty huge on a good 4k tv. Also you need to have next gen exclusives before that 20 million because you gotta give a reason for people to buy the console. Crossgen only makes sense the first year of a console, past that and you are holding back gaming and console sales.

 

[Little Chicken]

Same thing people said about last gen, "PS4 isn't that big an upgrade over PS3!", and well, yes it was.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I’m really hoping this is possible, but isn’t the limiting factor storage? I could be wrong but I think I remember a game using these kind of assets would be in the 100’s of GBs. Happy to be proven wrong

It's uncompressed 8K, Hollywood level assets. The demo shown was lossless, uncompressed. With Oodle Textures you can compress around 50% and still get near identical results up close, let alone from far away. Along with that you have Oodle Kraken to compress the whole game around 29% more than current ZLIB on PS4/Xbone/XSX|S, and yet decompress them 297% faster than ZLIB, not counting a dedicated HW Kraken decompressor that's as powerful as 9x Zen2 cores that should boost that!

And most of those assets are extensively reused as been explained by a developer on youtube, so it's not as big as you think. You can make a game as big as TLOU2 and with those compressions and make it smaller than those crazy COD games.

But why 8K assets? Here is 4K assets with 25% compression, if something like this is released at 4K resolution whether it's native or reconstructed it would shock the gaming industry. And guess what? They said that there are games are being designed like that (that's in 2019):





So that very same trailer with frame polygon budget by Nanite on UE5 or Sony Atom View engine with 25-50% more compression from Oodle Textures and 29% more compression for the whole game overall would make it very possible to sit around 100GB or less. Spider-Man MM is only 38.8GB while using insane high resolution assets here for the entire city:

And yes, Spider-Man MM is still using LOD's, which is 5-7 versions of the same asset which is extremely wasteful for total game size. Nanite and Sony Atom view only use the original asset and just render polygons at a frame by frame basis, shaving a lot of unnecessary size off the total game size.

So yes, do all that math and you'll see games on the level or better on PS5 at least.

 

[N1tr0sOx1d3]

Bo_Hazem thanks for taking the time to explain the above.
This is quite remarkable. To think we we will be seeing movie quality assets in games in the not too distant future has to be one of the most exciting technologies regarding next gen, even over the likes of RT.

 

[ahmyleg]

Gen 5 to Gen 6 was the biggest leap for 3D graphics.

 

[Fart Knight]

Poor excuse from a poor developer.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Bo_Hazem thanks for taking the time to explain the above.
This is quite remarkable. To think we we will be seeing movie quality assets in games in the not too distant future has to be one of the most exciting technologies regarding next gen, even over the likes of RT.

You're welcome, mate! You may check this out if you're interested:

Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5

Kraken VS ZLIB: According to the official graph by RAD Game Tools, Kraken has 29% higher compression ratio over ZLIB (used in PS4 and other platforms), and does it 3-5x faster (doesn't really concern us as gamers, only good for devs). Both Kraken and ZLIB are lossless compressions, meaning data...

www.neogaf.com

With all stuff combined, it should make the internal SSD of PS5 as fast as a DDR4 RAM (single channel), which is crazy.

 

[Melfice7]

Just go back to 1080p and make great looking games with great framerates.

They would make it 30 fps

 

[Thirty7ven]

CPU and I/O are the defining jumps of this generation when it comes to the tech under the hood.

 

[JLB]

You don't think God of War was incredibly expensive to make?



Luckily for most gamers, solid 30fps games are NOT a deal breaker.

Also, for most gamers Candy Crash is the best game of all times.
Let 30fps die once and for all jfc

 

[Javthusiast]

Guys...............60 fps will NEVER EVER become standard. It.....will.......NEVER....happen! EVER!

This. As much as we would like it to be the standard, many devs will prioritize graphics to wow consumers than stable 60 fps greatness.

 

[mckmas8808]

This. As much as we would like it to be the standard, many devs will prioritize graphics to wow consumers than stable 60 fps greatness.

Mainly because most gamers don't "NEED" 60fps for all their games.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

This right here. Then Naughty Dog will come out with their first game of the generation and people will shit themselves and be like "Wow, who would have known". Rinse/repeat.

The second half of this generation shows that if you give talented studios unlimited time and budget they can create games that look as great as RDR2, TLOU II and Cyberpunk 2077.

Visuals are getting more and more about artistic talent and time / budget rather than clockspeeds and teraflops.

 

[GamingArena]

Just 60FPS locked and start building your games from there that alone is generational leap if they do that for every game,

 

[nyr88nyg]

Wow

 

[Shmunter]

Lost count how many times i have said this over the last year or so. A 4k target just eats up them teraflops for breakfast.
Obviously there will be a jump, just dont expect miracles.
If you take Demon's Souls for example, its by far the best looking launch game imo, but thats all down to its high quality textures. It looks like someone took Dark Souls 3 and added a 4k texture mod. Polygon wise, i have no doubt a 1080p/30 version could be done on PS4.

In the DF interview there was discussion about the debug wireframe view being beyond what’s been achieved previously, to a detail level it no longer looks like a wireframe

Yes, dev talk, but if genuine that indicates new levels of geometric complexity.

 

[THEAP99]

what a load of crap. i can't wait till naughty dog releases a game. they gonna fuck the industry big time haha blooper team more like blunder time what a bunch of damage control

 

[polybius80]

SSDs can use high quality assets but those assets have to be rendered at a decent FPS.

SSD can maintain a very high quality LOD system something like the one in UE5 I think you are not understanding what is so important about loading assets very fast all the time for a LOD system

a few high quality assets near the camera is not a problem specially because they will cover more pixels from the screen, if you manage to interchange them seamlessly with lower quality as they are far from camera then you maintain a healthy performance and that is something SSD is fundamental as RAM size is not scaling in the same way as other specs of last gen

Precomputed graphics is last gen. There is no moving forward with sticking to that this generation. And you only talk about precomputed graphics because NOT using them cost too much for these consoles. Not because that's what looks better.

using prebaked doesnt mean you cant combine it with dynamic in fact is not a new thing

precompute can give amazing results if used correctly there is no reason to believe is outdated or last gen specially as it gives a lot of benefits and can be used on steroids with the new compression algorithms and fast loading from SSD, PRT and loading assets based on the frustum

for example you can mix many light maps for different times of a day stored on SSD to one single lightmap in RAM and give distant objects lighting and shadows effects corresponding to the time of the day and use dynamic effect only for nearby object that is a big improvement over this gen where you remove shadows and light of far away objects or just add blob shadows to distant trees

 

[polybius80]

Yet that thing was not 4k -not a big deal- and just 30fps (deal breaker). Also, thats a demo. On a real videogame, theres AI, menus, NPCs, etc etc etc.

AI is processed on the CPU.......

menus?..... yeah sure if they put an overlay with a texture the framerate will just plummet

what part of the NPC? the AI or their states are calculated on the CPU and the actual rendering is not a problem its also noteworthy how rocks or the bugs interact with collision on the scene so they run a physics model and run a huge amount of them which have the same requirements as vectors and collisions used on parts of NPCs in other games, animating a model on the scene and calculating its behaviour(on CPU) is not a problem or at least there is no reason to believe it cannot be used with more game mechanics

there are games with very simplistic interactions adding a gun that do nothing more than give a signal to the object that collision with a vector to change the animation or change states and position or trigger scripts in fact the UE5 demo have shown enough interaction to be comparable with simplistic games as for example re-core

 

[polybius80]

Personally I think 60 might have become more common last time, but we had the terrible CPUs holding things back.

I think there is a huge misconception here, powerful CPU are needed because of complex AI, physics(when they are done on CPU) and complex scripts but generally a better CPU is not going to make PS4/XB1 games double their framerates, when a person says the CPU is holding back the framerate(30 fps instead of 60) that person is impliying the GPU can render all frames twice as fast without modifying graphics and that is simply not true, there are modern games that dont have more complex physics and behavior than lets say: Jak3 from PS2 ,yet they run at 30 fps despite the fact PS4/XB1 CPU is vastly more powerful than PS2's CPU(R5900) you can also see AC valhalla on XB series S compared to XB series X

in order to achieve 60 fps first and foremost the GPU should be able to render each frame in no more than ~16 ms if it cant then you need to lower the framerate and give the GPU 33 ms for each frame, you will rarely see AI logic interfering and even then there are plenty of things the CPU do that dont require to be ready in less than 16 ms so you can work some logic at "30 fps" and run the game at 60 fps

as developers aim for nice graphics they will usually target 30 fps in order to put as much details as they can

 

[JLB]

AI is processed on the CPU.......

menus?..... yeah sure if they put an overlay with a texture the framerate will just plummet

what part of the NPC? the AI or their states are calculated on the CPU and the actual rendering is not a problem its also noteworthy how rocks or the bugs interact with collision on the scene so they run a physics model and run a huge amount of them which have the same requirements as vectors and collisions used on parts of NPCs in other games, animating a model on the scene and calculating its behaviour(on CPU) is not a problem or at least there is no reason to believe it cannot be used with more game mechanics

there are games with very simplistic interactions adding a gun that do nothing more than give a signal to the object that collision with a vector to change the animation or change states and position or trigger scripts in fact the UE5 demo have shown enough interaction to be comparable with simplistic games as for example re-core

ok, lets gonna resume this chat once a game like that actually exists.

 

[Rat Rage]

Acording to Bloober Team’s Jacek Zieba, who is a producer on the upcoming horror title The Medium, the 9th console generation’s added horsepower isn’t going to bring about similar leaps in quality, and will instead pave the way for more creative freedom, and new gameplay experiences

 

[oldergamer]

Which is the funny part? Medium does something that no other game has tried, by rendering two different scenes at the same time for the player to interact with. Certainly falls into the category of "creative freedom, and new gameplay experiences " or do you disagree?

 

[quest]

From a small studio or indy perspective I see nothing wrong with what was said. The new consoles will allow those small guys to create some great stuff that looks solid. Lots of good small studio and indy games are coming to both consoles. I am looking forward to a few of them.

 

[oldergamer]

From a small studio or indy perspective I see nothing wrong with what was said. The new consoles will allow those small guys to create some great stuff that looks solid. Lots of good small studio and indy games are coming to both consoles. I am looking forward to a few of them.

Dunno if I'd consider them small, as they will have two games released within months of each other. However i do agree with you.

 

[Hunnybun]

I think there is a huge misconception here, powerful CPU are needed because of complex AI, physics(when they are done on CPU) and complex scripts but generally a better CPU is not going to make PS4/XB1 games double their framerates, when a person says the CPU is holding back the framerate(30 fps instead of 60) that person is impliying the GPU can render all frames twice as fast without modifying graphics and that is simply not true, there are modern games that dont have more complex physics and behavior than lets say: Jak3 from PS2 ,yet they run at 30 fps despite the fact PS4/XB1 CPU is vastly more powerful than PS2's CPU(R5900) you can also see AC valhalla on XB series S compared to XB series X

in order to achieve 60 fps first and foremost the GPU should be able to render each frame in no more than ~16 ms if it cant then you need to lower the framerate and give the GPU 33 ms for each frame, you will rarely see AI logic interfering and even then there are plenty of things the CPU do that dont require to be ready in less than 16 ms so you can work some logic at "30 fps" and run the game at 60 fps

as developers aim for nice graphics they will usually target 30 fps in order to put as much details as they can

My understanding is simply (or simplistically) that double the frames requires roughly double the GPU power AND roughly double the CPU power.

Or, more simply still, that it's a demand on both. I mean, I think that would seem to the layman (ie me) to be seen in the total dearth of 60fps modes on the PS4 Pro, despite the 2.25x GPU power over the base console.

When we did get them, we certainly didn't get locked 60fps. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to infer that, knowing that the CPUs were very weak, that this was probably a factor in the lack of 60fps games or even game modes.