Support NeoGAF

[phil_t98]

So how much per average GB is shown on screen at any one time. People are talking how quick it can stream off a SSD but what is being shown in terms of numbers. Now people saying PS5 will do 6gbs so it can instantly load but they won’t be showing 6gbs on screen at anytime will they?

let’s say average next gen game comes in around 150gb and is as people are inferrring here that as soon as a character turns it will instantly load another 6gb of info instantly then we gonna see some pretty short ass Games if everything on screen at that moment is using all 6gb bandwidth to show all the graphics.

 

[sinnergy]

The both tackelde the same problem but a little bit different .

 

[Bernkastel]

So, no, SFS does not close the gap IMHO.

Oh it does.

DirectX 12 Ultimate Preview Driver Enables DXR 1.1, Mesh Shaders, Variable Rate Shading, and More | NVIDIA Technical Blog

To get the most out of DirectX 12 Ultimate, we’ve provided early public access to the NVIDIA DirectX Ultimate Developer Preview Driver [450.82] on our DirextX developer page, for both NVIDIA GeForce…

news.developer.nvidia.com

Sampler Feedback
Sampler Feedback enables better visual quality, shorter load times, and less stuttering. This is accomplished by providing detailed information that enables developers to only load in textures when needed. Sampler feedback also enables texture-space shading (TSS), a rendering technique which de-couples the shading of an object in world space from the rasterization of the shape of that object to the final target.

 

[polybius80]

PRTs don’t hold a candle to SF hardware in SFS. The PS5 is most likely going to use sampler feedback but will still push textures into RAM that may never be used. SFS is supposed to eliminate this and that’s why it has a huge multiplier of 2-3x. Even if you use an absurd 22GB/s figure For the PS5 it 100% doesn’t apply to texture data which is what we’re talking about here. Sony didn’t spend years building a system like SFS as far as we know and they didn’t have to

"The core of SFS is the existing support for tiled resources, including tiled textures (i.e., reserved resources), tile pools (i.e., ID3D12Heap objects), and the GPU timeline tile mapping and copy APIs on the D3D12 command queue and command list."

Sampler Feedback

Engineering specs for DirectX features.

microsoft.github.io

Sampler feedback requires GPU support to obtain the hints of the textures being used(it varies the TIER per GPU or not support at all since its not required), the same feature is included in PS5 GPU so they can read the same hints in their API

actually this feature is not intended to close any gap on SSD performance, its a DX12 feature for PC and Xbox, the difference is there it only means that you can more wisely select portions of your textures and require less textures loading that doesnt impact every game the same and its not a constant, if anything this helps more mechanical disks where every help is welcome, both systems have years of improved streaming technology from past consoles you cannot blindly assume one is unaware of the advancements in streaming and did nothing specially because sony have invested heavily in efficient data streaming since PS2 days

DirectX is a set of standards it doesnt mean MS invented the ideas its just their implementations and specifications, the GPU provide various degrees of hardware support but they also provide this hardware to any API that uses those GPUs

 

[rntongo]

You are cherry picking and mixing things out of context trying to imply the same marketing PR spiel about SF bringing 2-3x or more memory and bandwidth improvements over PRT in say RDNA1.

I am not downplaying SFS nor the extra HE filter they added to reduce the visible impact of LOD/texture switching as higher quality data is streamed in.

Virtual Texturing, to avoid uploading the full quality texture (or the full mio map chain for example) or unused textures, is something developers have been doing since the PS2 days or before (with different levels of quality and efficiency/rendering cost).

More recently an implementation that was trying to unify it under a single banner and keep draw cal cost to a bare minimum was id’s MegaTexture tech... all data points you are conveniently ignoring in your efforts to market XSX around.

You're downplaying because you have a preferred system. That's like people saying SSDs have existed in PCs since the mid 2000s when referring to the PS5 SSD(which is impressive btw). We're not talking about virtual texturing per say but the advancements brought about by SFS with regards to virtual texturing and efficient texture streaming. MSFT spent years monitoring PRT on the Xbox One and found entire texture assets not being used. You're now claiming the SF implementation on the XSX is just PRT with automated triggers. Give credit where it's due. The engineer clearly stated that SFS hardware is not part of DX12U and even SF will have custom texture filters custom to XSX. He even gave an example of a 4x multiplier on RAM. This clearly supports the claim of a 2-3x multiplier.

Sony didn't invent SSDs but their SSD is arguably the best for gaming out there and MSFT didn't invent Virtual Texturing but with SFS it seems they have the best implementation for gaming at the moment.

I could sit here and argue with you about why mega-texturing failed because of I/O bottlenecks and blaze blah but the gist of my point is in the paragraph above.

 

[rntongo]

"The core of SFS is the existing support for tiled resources, including tiled textures (i.e., reserved resources), tile pools (i.e., ID3D12Heap objects), and the GPU timeline tile mapping and copy APIs on the D3D12 command queue and command list."

Sampler Feedback

Engineering specs for DirectX features.

microsoft.github.io

Sampler feedback requires GPU support to obtain the hints of the textures being used(it varies the TIER per GPU or not support at all since its not required), the same feature is included in PS5 GPU so they can read the same hints in their API

actually this feature is not intended to close any gap on SSD performance, its a DX12 feature for PC, the difference is there it only means that you can more wisely select portions of your textures and require less textures that doesnt impact every game the same and its not a constant, if anything this helps more mechanical disks where every help is welcome, both systems have years of improved streaming technology from past consoles you cannot blindly assume one is unaware of the advancements in streaming and did nothing specially because sony have invested heavily in efficient data streaming since PS2 days

DirectX is a set of standards it doesnt mean MS invented the ideas its just their implementations and GPU provide various degrees of hardware support

1.) We do not know for a fact if PS5 is using Sampler Feedback. It's likely they're using their own implementation of an improvement over PRTs which is similar to Sampler Feedback.
2.) SF is not the same as SFS which is what this whole argument is about. SFS is custom hardware in the XSX GPU for texture streaming. They used a bad name imho since even in your post they refer to SF as SFS. Please read my other comments on this thread, I don't want to go over them.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Oh it does.

DirectX 12 Ultimate Preview Driver Enables DXR 1.1, Mesh Shaders, Variable Rate Shading, and More | NVIDIA Technical Blog

To get the most out of DirectX 12 Ultimate, we’ve provided early public access to the NVIDIA DirectX Ultimate Developer Preview Driver [450.82] on our DirextX developer page, for both NVIDIA GeForce…

news.developer.nvidia.com

It does not close the gap, SFS Enhancements on top of what PRT an developers could manually do reduce a massive difference into a slightly less massive but still very large one based on the assumption PS5’s GPU has nothing similar in it too.

Cannot believe how you gave Cerny grief over FP16 improvements (double rate) with Rapid Packed Math (Vega gestire in PS4 Pro) and are now trying to peddle SF improvements over PRT as 2-3x or more bandwidth and memory storage improvements . Unless it is being intentional disingenuous.

 

[Panajev2001a]

1.) We do not know for a fact if PS5 is using Sampler Feedback. It's likely they're using their own implementation of an improvement over PRTs which is similar to Sampler Feedback.
2.) SF is not the same as SFS which is what this whole argument is about. SFS is custom hardware in the XSX GPU for texture streaming. They used a bad name imho since even in your post they refer to SF as SFS. Please read my other comments on this thread, I don't want to go over them.

Do go over them as the only thing you singled out in your SFS != SF for texture streaming was custom texture filtering for page misses.

 

[polybius80]

1.) We do not know for a fact if PS5 is using Sampler Feedback. It's likely they're using their own implementation of an improvement over PRTs which is similar to Sampler Feedback.

but we know they have all the extensions available, they know what they do as they had to check every extension to make their API with AMD, "Sample Feed back" is just a name MS used, Sony can use the same or better algorithm(maybe even using their own custom extensions) or even implement or update in a Devkit update and just name it different

They used a bad name imho since even in your post they refer to SF as SFS. Please read my other comments on this thread, I don't want to go over them.

well my post is from Microsoft repository for directx12 as they say "This repository publishes the engineering specs for a number of DirectX features. It supplements the official API documentation with an extra level of detail that can be useful to expert developers."

they define it as this

"
Terminology

Use of sampler feedback with streaming is sometimes abbreviated as SFS. It is also sometimes called sparse feedback textures, or SFT, or PRT+, which stands for “partially resident textures”.
"

can you point to documentation that explains what difference exists between this DirectX12 SFS and the Xbox series X SFS?

 

[rntongo]

but we know they have all the extensions available, they know what they do as they had to check every extension to make their API, "Sample Feed back" is just a name MS used Sony can use the same or better algorithm(maybe even using their own custom extensions) or even implement or update in a Devkit update





well my post is from Microsoft repository for directx12 as they say "This repository publishes the engineering specs for a number of DirectX features. It supplements the official API documentation with an extra level of detail that can be useful to expert developers."

they define it as this

"
Terminology

Use of sampler feedback with streaming is sometimes abbreviated as SFS. It is also sometimes called sparse feedback textures, or SFT, or PRT+, which stands for “partially resident textures”.
"

can you point to documentation that explains what difference exists between this DirectX12 SFS and the Xbox series X SFS?

1.) The acronym for SFS with regards to the XSX is Sample Feedback Streaming(SFS). You could check it out here but here is a comment from an engineer explaining that I have posted on neogaf millions of times. Sampler feedback is just one aspect of the SFS hardware in the XSX. Which is custom for the XSX and has advantages over PCs supporting DX12U.

 

[Md Ray]

Developers got what they wanted, an SSD on both consoles.

I wonder what will be their number one request for next-next gen? AI?

Most likely GPU. Or related to GPU bandwidth... I believe GPU/bw will be the limitation this time around.

 

[polybius80]

1.) The acronym for SFS with regards to the XSX is Sample Feedback Streaming(SFS). You could check it out here but here is a comment from an engineer explaining that I have posted on neogaf millions of times. Sampler feedback is just one aspect of the SFS hardware in the XSX. Which is custom for the XSX and has advantages over PCs supporting DX12U.

please dont post twitter quotes, just paste the text I cannot see twitter quotes because they refuse to display without all permissions in my browser

about the link you provided it doesn't explain how it works or how it differs if anything it have a valid definition for PRT/tiled textures, it mention is part of xbox velocity architecture along some hardware and an API(that will come to windows too), are you sure is not the same DX12 SFS?

 

[Md Ray]

It does not close the gap, SFS Enhancements on top of what PRT an developers could manually do reduce a massive difference into a slightly less massive but still very large one based on the assumption PS5’s GPU has nothing similar in it too.

Cannot believe how you gave Cerny grief over FP16 improvements (double rate) with Rapid Packed Math (Vega gestire in PS4 Pro) and are now trying to peddle SF improvements over PRT as 2-3x or more bandwidth and memory storage improvements . Unless it is being intentional disingenuous.

Sorry to ask this. But what's PRT?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sorry to ask this. But what's PRT?

You can read a pretty decent explanation in this review here:https://www.anandtech.com/show/5261/amd-radeon-hd-7970-review/6

Think virtual memory like your PC OS page file where your RAM contains a subset of the complete memory space the OS helps you manage.

 

[Md Ray]

You can read a pretty decent explanation in this review here:https://www.anandtech.com/show/5261/amd-radeon-hd-7970-review/6

Think virtual memory like your PC OS page file where your RAM contains a subset of the complete memory space the OS helps you manage.

I see, thanks for the link.

 

[D.Final]

Oh it does.

DirectX 12 Ultimate Preview Driver Enables DXR 1.1, Mesh Shaders, Variable Rate Shading, and More | NVIDIA Technical Blog

To get the most out of DirectX 12 Ultimate, we’ve provided early public access to the NVIDIA DirectX Ultimate Developer Preview Driver [450.82] on our DirextX developer page, for both NVIDIA GeForce…

news.developer.nvidia.com

Pretty cool

 

[Bernkastel]

It does not close the gap, SFS Enhancements on top of what PRT an developers could manually do reduce a massive difference into a slightly less massive but still very large one based on the assumption PS5’s GPU has nothing similar in it too.

Cannot believe how you gave Cerny grief over FP16 improvements (double rate) with Rapid Packed Math (Vega gestire in PS4 Pro) and are now trying to peddle SF improvements over PRT as 2-3x or more bandwidth and memory storage improvements . Unless it is being intentional disingenuous.

fp16 enhancements was for select few games that actually used that(not even Sony first party used it). Cerny tried to oversell it like some magic button that doubles GPU power for the system.
First of all SFS is an extension of SF exclusive to XSX. They are not the same thing.


Secondly,

SFS Enhancements on top of what PRT an developers could manually do reduce a massive difference into a slightly less massive but still very large one based on the assumption PS5’s GPU has nothing similar in it too.

and are now trying to peddle SF improvements over PRT as 2-3x or more bandwidth and memory storage improvements . Unless it is being intentional disingenuous.

Its literally in the OP.

Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS) – A component of the Xbox Velocity Architecture, SFS is a feature of the Xbox Series X hardware that allows games to load into memory, with fine granularity, only the portions of textures that the GPU needs for a scene, as it needs it. This enables far better memory utilization for textures, which is important given that every 4K texture consumes 8MB of memory. Because it avoids the wastage of loading into memory the portions of textures that are never needed, it is an effective 2x or 3x (or higher) multiplier on both amount of physical memory and SSD performance.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Is this an okay SSD thread, or

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

please dont post twitter quotes, just paste the text I cannot see twitter quotes because they refuse to display without all permissions in my browser

about the link you provided it doesn't explain how it works or how it differs if anything it have a valid definition for PRT/tiled textures, it mention is part of xbox velocity architecture along some hardware and an API(that will come to windows too), are you sure is not the same DX12 SFS?

No, this isn't part of RDNA2. Xbox Velocity Architecture is all custom to Xbox. We developed a lot of custom tech for Xbox Series X just like Sony did for PS5.

If you want more answers best bet is probably the Hot Chips XSX System Architecture presentation August 17th.

It does not close the gap, SFS Enhancements on top of what PRT an developers could manually do reduce a massive difference into a slightly less massive but still very large one based on the assumption PS5’s GPU has nothing similar in it too.

Cannot believe how you gave Cerny grief over FP16 improvements (double rate) with Rapid Packed Math (Vega gestire in PS4 Pro) and are now trying to peddle SF improvements over PRT as 2-3x or more bandwidth and memory storage improvements . Unless it is being intentional disingenuous.

Can I ask you a question? You seem to have virtually no issue taking paper specs and mere mentions from Sony project members like Mark Cerny on pure faith and just "trusting" their PR and bullet point talk is verified or at least verifiable. Yet almost any claims MS makes regarding the XSX SSD I/O, you refute them, don't trust them, say they're BS etc. etc.

You probably already know what I'm going to ask, then; why the double standard? It's not like Sony haven't fluffed up their own performance claims in the past, going all the way back to PS1. I still read some of the old gaming magazines now and again (reading through an issue of Next Generation right now; damn I loved that magazine), and it's just funny seeing some of the claims from console platform holders back in the day, including Sony, when we know how certain boastings actually played out.

At the very least is it too much to ask for a fair level of cautiousness regarding technical claims from both MS and Sony? I think that would be better in general.

Is this an okay SSD thread, or

If we're keeping score, XSX SSD thread counts are still in the single-digits, PS5 SSD thread counts are probably pushing near 50 or so

 

[D.Final]

Is this an okay SSD thread, or

Oh boy

 

[DeepEnigma]

If we're keeping score, XSX SSD thread counts are still in the single-digits, PS5 SSD thread counts are probably pushing near 50 or so

Don't worry, the OP moved on to 'Indy Dev says CPU is more important than SSD' in the headline propaganda war between the two camps

 

[Bernkastel]

Don't worry, the OP moved on to 'Indy Dev says CPU is more important than SSD' in the headline propaganda war between the two camps

If it was not obvious to you, I still post in this thread and update the OP. Dont know why we need multiple threads on one topic.

 

[Bryank75]

Is this an okay SSD thread, or

From the people who brought you misterXmedia, 'secret sauce', 'the cloud will make Xbox one the most powerful console', 'Warchest', 'just wait till next E3' and many more.....

Comes.... Velocity!

It sounds cool so it must be true!

Hail Cobra! (Xbox) /S

 

[DeepEnigma]

From the people who brought you misterXmedia, secret sauce, the cloud will make Xbox one the most powerful console, Warchest, just wait till next E3 and many more.....

Comes.... Velocity!

It sounds cool so it must be true!

Hail Cobra! (Xbox) /S

Hey man, I am excited that both consoles will have SSDs. That is truly the game changer for gaming, CPUs naturally progress with power, but a total storage medium that is lightning fast on both, that changes the paradigm for all platforms. It needed to happen.

Been saying this since day zero and never strayed from that, not even once.

But the propaganda war is plain as day.

 

[Bernkastel]

From the people who brought you misterXmedia, 'secret sauce', 'the cloud will make Xbox one the most powerful console', 'Warchest', 'just wait till next E3' and many more.....

Comes.... Velocity!

It sounds cool so it must be true!

Hail Cobra! (Xbox) /S

And from those who said PS2's "75 million polygons per second " lie, PS3's "Power of Cell" and this bullshit

Comes "Power of SSD". Specs be damned, SSD can substitute for everything.

 

[Bryank75]

Hey man, I am excited that both consoles will have SSDs. That is truly the game changer for gaming, CPUs naturally progress with power, but a total storage medium that is lightning fast on both, that changes the paradigm for all platforms. It needed to happen.

Been saying this since day zero and never strayed from that, not even once.

But the propaganda war is plain as day.

Yeah, I'm just having fun.... all the nonsense through the years and they can't see they're just making another meme for me to use. It's another one on my list!

 

[Bryank75]

And from those who said PS2's "75 million polygons per second " lie, PS3's "Power of Cell" and this bullshit

Comes "Power of SSD". Specs be damned, SSD can substitute for everything.

I take absolutely no offense to anything you mentioned, PlayStation always provided where it counted most...

 

[Andodalf]

And from those who said PS2's "75 million polygons per second " lie, PS3's "Power of Cell" and this bullshit

Comes "Power of SSD". Specs be damned, SSD can substitute for everything.

Man, I never realized how quickly those tweets were screen-grabbed, or just how much twitter has changed since then!

 

[loktaiextatus]

And from those who said PS2's "75 million polygons per second " lie, PS3's "Power of Cell" and this bullshit

Comes "Power of SSD". Specs be damned, SSD can substitute for everything.

SSD throughput IS a spec. its an important one. Clock speed for vertexes is a spec,
heck there are lots of specs. But the only ones that apparently matter are floating point operations per second and
naming something velocity- never mind its half the speed of the competitor's solution, we named it something
cool sounding so... pay no attention to the SPECs, right?

by the way anyone in the IT/Data center fields know the CELL is in fact a beast of a CPU and heavily used in a ton of
enterprise level IBM "Power" systems. Nothing wrong with the Cell at all, it just doesnt lend itself to PC ports for instance
and they kind of threw the developer under the bus... the actual CPU is great. More was bottlenecked by the GPU and
memory setup than anything on the PS3.

And it was 66 million triangles.. which the PS2 actually does. Its referring to RAW triangles. Its not wrong.,, but yeah it is selective.
Just like neither Sony nor Microsoft have a problem talking about 6GBPS (be it raw or compressed) when we KNOW there will be
no real world sustained 5.5gbps on either- the thing is even if the actual throughput on Sonys machine in-game is more like 6GBps
COMPRESSED, Microsofts solution is still half the speed of THAT.

Will it matter? Probbbbabbllyy not because when a developer knows he is porting to the Series X hes going to use whatever they learn and
know and is included for technology to MAXIMIZE the console assuming they give a damn.

I would expect at launch to see Digital Foundry showing comparisons, and we will see really similar stuff to Resident Evil 3 remake (post patch)
where the series X may turn on a better filter or something in the game and otherwise they are identical. The gap is much smaller in GPU
performance than Pro to One X so this is realistic, and then loading times, say they are 5 seconds on the Series X, under 3 on the PS5.

Later on when they actually USE the SSD technology- if ever- you will notice more , and again as games learn to use RDNA and offloading stuff to the
ray tracing hardware more instances where the series X has better shadows or an effect absent on the PS5. Exclusive games will really milk the machines.
Both of them.

 

[Bernkastel]

SSD throughput IS a spec. its an important one. Clock speed for vertexes is a spec,
heck there are lots of specs. But the only ones that apparently matter are floating point operations per second and
naming something velocity- never mind its half the speed of the competitor's solution, we named it something
cool sounding so... pay no attention to the SPECs, right?

by the way anyone in the IT/Data center fields know the CELL is in fact a beast of a CPU and heavily used in a ton of
enterprise level IBM "Power" systems. Nothing wrong with the Cell at all, it just doesnt lend itself to PC ports for instance
and they kind of threw the developer under the bus... the actual CPU is great. More was bottlenecked by the GPU and
memory setup than anything on the PS3.

And it was 66 million triangles.. which the PS2 actually does. Its referring to RAW triangles. Its not wrong.,, but yeah it is selective.
Just like neither Sony nor Microsoft have a problem talking about 6GBPS (be it raw or compressed) when we KNOW there will be
no real world sustained 5.5gbps on either- the thing is even if the actual throughput on Sonys machine in-game is more like 6GBps
COMPRESSED, Microsofts solution is still half the speed of THAT.

Will it matter? Probbbbabbllyy not because when a developer knows he is porting to the Series X hes going to use whatever they learn and
know and is included for technology to MAXIMIZE the console assuming they give a damn.

I would expect at launch to see Digital Foundry showing comparisons, and we will see really similar stuff to Resident Evil 3 remake (post patch)
where the series X may turn on a better filter or something in the game and otherwise they are identical. The gap is much smaller in GPU
performance than Pro to One X so this is realistic, and then loading times, say they are 5 seconds on the Series X, under 3 on the PS5.

Later on when they actually USE the SSD technology- if ever- you will notice more , and again as games learn to use RDNA and offloading stuff to the
ray tracing hardware more instances where the series X has better shadows or an effect absent on the PS5. Exclusive games will really milk the machines.
Both of them.

There are like a dozen SSD threads for you to preach your sermons. Dont bump in this heretic thread.

 

[iHaunter]

4.8GB compressed. Not quite the same thing.

 

[Mod of War]

There are like a dozen SSD threads for you to preach your sermons. Dont bump in this heretic thread.

His data pertains to the thread and the topic you helped shift it to. Don't backseat moderate, there are no "safe spaces" here to not be challenged with tactful opinion.

With that said, trolling will be dealt with and should still be reported.

DeepEnigma Bryank75 Bernkastel , please stay on topic.

 

[loktaiextatus]

There are like a dozen SSD threads for you to preach your sermons. Dont bump in this heretic thread.

This thread was already bumped. I was replying to a person, not bumping the post. Relax, you are bumping this post by replying to me.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

So I’ve tried to follow the thread, but just for clarification for a simple mind such as my own:

“Instant access to 100gigs at 4.8GB/s” obviously doesn’t mean there’s a special 100GB/s pool of memory off the SSD, but it’s a pool of 100 gigs accessed with no seek time or latency that can move data at 4.8GB/s instead of the standard 2.4 GB/s?

so basically MS is saying “here’s 100 gigs you can play with at twice our normal speed,” or am I mixed up?

 

[Bernkastel]

SSD throughput IS a spec. its an important one. Clock speed for vertexes is a spec,
heck there are lots of specs. But the only ones that apparently matter are floating point operations per second and
naming something velocity- never mind its half the speed of the competitor's solution, we named it something
cool sounding so... pay no attention to the SPECs, right?

by the way anyone in the IT/Data center fields know the CELL is in fact a beast of a CPU and heavily used in a ton of
enterprise level IBM "Power" systems. Nothing wrong with the Cell at all, it just doesnt lend itself to PC ports for instance
and they kind of threw the developer under the bus... the actual CPU is great. More was bottlenecked by the GPU and
memory setup than anything on the PS3.

And it was 66 million triangles.. which the PS2 actually does. Its referring to RAW triangles. Its not wrong.,, but yeah it is selective.
Just like neither Sony nor Microsoft have a problem talking about 6GBPS (be it raw or compressed) when we KNOW there will be
no real world sustained 5.5gbps on either- the thing is even if the actual throughput on Sonys machine in-game is more like 6GBps
COMPRESSED, Microsofts solution is still half the speed of THAT.

Will it matter? Probbbbabbllyy not because when a developer knows he is porting to the Series X hes going to use whatever they learn and
know and is included for technology to MAXIMIZE the console assuming they give a damn.

I would expect at launch to see Digital Foundry showing comparisons, and we will see really similar stuff to Resident Evil 3 remake (post patch)
where the series X may turn on a better filter or something in the game and otherwise they are identical. The gap is much smaller in GPU
performance than Pro to One X so this is realistic, and then loading times, say they are 5 seconds on the Series X, under 3 on the PS5.

Later on when they actually USE the SSD technology- if ever- you will notice more , and again as games learn to use RDNA and offloading stuff to the
ray tracing hardware more instances where the series X has better shadows or an effect absent on the PS5. Exclusive games will really milk the machines.
Both of them.

Since, the Worlds most powerful axe is on my neck, I might as well reply.

SSD throughput IS a spec. its an important one. Clock speed for vertexes is a spec,
heck there are lots of specs. But the only ones that apparently matter are floating point operations per second and
naming something velocity- never mind its half the speed of the competitor's solution, we named it something
cool sounding so... pay no attention to the SPECs, right?

Velocity architecture is not just a fancy name though. AMD has a similar concept for their data center GPUs

https://www.amd.com/en/products/professional-graphics/radeon-pro-ssg

Solid State Graphics (SSG) -Yes (2 TB onboard SSG)

And in Microsoft's own Azure data center designs

Project Denali to define flexible SSDs for cloud-scale applications | Microsoft Azure Blog

Last September, at SNIA’s Storage Developer’s Conference, I presented a prototype of the Project Denali SSD. Project Denali drives provide the flexibility needed to optimize for the workloads of a…

azure.microsoft.com

Microsoft launches Project Denali to speed up datacenter SSDs

It's time to celebrate the incredible women leading the way in AI! Nominate your inspiring leaders for VentureBeat’s Women in AI Awards today before June 18. Learn More Microsoft launched a new project today that’s designed to help make flash storage more useful to large enterprises and cloud...

venturebeat.com

Microsoft knows what they are doing. The fucking logo looks like Azure logo

On the other hand we dont have any idea about PS5 SSD except for pure hype and speculation.

 

[rntongo]

Do go over them as the only thing you singled out in your SFS != SF for texture streaming was custom texture filtering for page misses.

He only stated the custom texture filters for Sampler feedback and not the other custom hardware that comprises other features of SFS. It makes sense because we'll find out in due time. But clearly you have a preferred system and unless the PS5 has an equivalent system, the gap between the systems in terms of I/O will be diminished to a considerable extent. A 2-3x multiplier for the SSD and RAM by cutting the amount of texture data loaded into RAM is no joke.

 

[Bernkastel]

So I’ve tried to follow the thread, but just for clarification for a simple mind such as my own:

“Instant access to 100gigs at 4.8GB/s” obviously doesn’t mean there’s a special 100GB/s pool of memory off the SSD, but it’s a pool of 100 gigs accessed with no seek time or latency that can move data at 4.8GB/s instead of the standard 2.4 GB/s?

so basically MS is saying “here’s 100 gigs you can play with at twice our normal speed,” or am I mixed up?

Its more like 6 GB/s, but yeah. Its based on Project Denali for Azure SSDs.

Microsoft creates industry standards for datacenter hardware storage and security | Microsoft Azure Blog

Today I’m speaking at the Open Compute Project (OCP) U.S. Summit 2018 in San Jose where we are announcing a next generation specification for solid state device (SSD) storage, Project Denali. We’re…

azure.microsoft.com

There is AMD Radeon SSG which has a 2 TB onboard SSG on the GPU.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Biggest issue io solution of xsx has compared to ps5 is not speed. Its latency. Ps5 io complex is physically inside the apu
Ms io complex is physically not inside apu. This creates latency issues due to law of physics limitation.

We have to see how they remedy this latency issue. Latency could make hitting max speeds difficult to achieve. But I m sure they will try to remedy it

 

[Eliciel]

OP your post is Like a forensics report lol, how much detail did you put in there, wow!
I am curious how this Generation Turns Out to be...I will actually play some games until the consoles release

 

[Thirty7ven]

Where's the 6 GB/S coming from?

I see posters keep repeating this number but MS says 2.4 RAW, 4.8 Compressed. Why are we adding numbers?

 

[Panajev2001a]

He only stated the custom texture filters for Sampler feedback and not the other custom hardware that comprises other features of SFS.

Custom magic HW that nobody can name of course... See if you do not have exact details on PS5 it must be Sony hiding something that should cause concern, but Xbox is just hiding a magic 2-3x memory multiplier.

A 2-3x multiplier for the SSD and RAM by cutting the amount of texture data loaded into RAM is no joke.

It would not be, if it were true (2-3x multiplier over virtual texturing and PRT’s).

Its more like 6 GB/s, but yeah.

By the same token PS5’s SSD could be rated 11-12 GB/s since we are making do with random multipliers based on virtual texturing benefits over provided specs.

 

[Entroyp]

Do what do they mean by 100 GB instantly available? Sound like marketing mare that hard data. Can DX defy the laws of physics that rule our entire universe just to beat the competition’s solution?

 

[Bernkastel]

Where's the 6 GB/S coming from?

I see posters keep repeating this number but MS says 2.4 RAW, 4.8 Compressed. Why are we adding numbers?

Its in the OP

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new compression [system] called BCPack that is tailored to the GPU textures that typically comprise the vast majority of a game's package size."

I added this later from an official interview, but the mods probably wont allow a title change.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Its in the OP

I added this later from an official interview, but the mods probably wont allow a title change.

But can you explain how that matters? The decompression block on the Ps5 can deliver 22 GB/s in optimal conditions but it doesn't seem like that number got any traction because in practice that's not how it works.

The raw and compressed figures given are the what's expected, up to 50% compression which is what will be the common use. So why insist on 6GB/s as "it's more like", when it's not? It's in fact, more like 4.8 GB/s when compressed (50%).

 

[Agnostic2020]

Its in the OP

I added this later from an official interview, but the mods probably wont allow a title change.

Xsx ssd max is 4.8 gb/s nothing more. Otherwise MS wouldn't shy away from saying it. Dont spread theoretical numbers as actual numbers

Xsx won't go a single megabyte over 4.8 and even 4.8 gb/s will be hard to reach due to latency issue resulting from having io complex outside apu.

 

[Bernkastel]

By the same token PS5’s SSD could be rated 11-12 GB/s since we are making do with random multipliers based on virtual texturing benefits over provided specs.

But can you explain how that matters? The decompression block on the Ps5 can deliver 22 GB/s in optimal conditions but it doesn't seem like that number got any traction because in practice that's not how it works.

The raw and compressed figures given are the what's expected, up to 50% compression which is what will be the common use. So why insist on 6GB/s as "it's more like", when it's not? It's in fact, more like 4.8 GB/s when compressed (50%).

Its not the same token though. The customizations of XSX SSD are not available in the PS5 SSD. It is a custom hardware decompression blockm that can deliver 6 GB/s, not the general 4.8 GB/s compressed. And then SFS "is an effective 2x or 3x (or higher) multiplier on both amount of physical memory and SSD performance."(its in the OP).

I/O Throughput

2.4 GB/s (Raw), 4.8 GB/s (Compressed, with custom hardware decompression block)

I feel like the title should have been "Xbox Velocity Architecture - 100 GB is instantly accessible by the developer with custom hardware decompression block of 6 GB/s."

Xsx ssd max is 4.8 gb/s nothing more. Otherwise MS wouldn't shy away from saying it. Dont spread theoretical numbers as actual numbers

Xsx won't go a single megabyte over 4.8 and even 4.8 gb/s will be hard to reach due to latency issue resulting from having io complex outside apu.

It can.

What do they mean by 100 GB instantly available? Sound like marketing mare that hard data. Can DX defy the laws of physics that rule our entire universe just to beat the competition’s solution?

Its not marketing jargon. Its a concept both Microsoft and AMD have used for data centers. The PS5 SSD jargon of replacing all specs with SSD sounds more like marketing mare to me. And it was introduced before "Road to PS5".

 

[M1chl]

Xsx ssd max is 4.8 gb/s nothing more. Otherwise MS wouldn't shy away from saying it. Dont spread theoretical numbers as actual numbers

Xsx won't go a single megabyte over 4.8 and even 4.8 gb/s will be hard to reach due to latency issue resulting from having io complex outside apu.

I think latency and throughput (theoretical) is not a factor in sustained need for data. Like for a number, but how this translates to a games, we will see. I thought that your point about latency was good one actually. I no longer engage in these sorts of discussions, but this made me reply. It's going to be interesting to see for sure. But let's say when consoles are dealing with just GDDR5, which has obviously latency disadvantage over DDR-type of memory and they still tackled this issue before, it's probably doable. It's implementation that matters.

 

[Kazekage1981]

Bernkastel can you please answer this inquiry, specifically for XsX SSD? Since you have researched this really well. I put this in the PS5 SSD thread as well.

Based on the unreal 5.0 engine, they established this new bottleneck:

"[The level of detail such as textures, light, appearance of shapes, colors, patterns + the generation of billions of triangles = assets] is limited by stream of data of those assets coming from where it is stored (SSD)"

People are inferring that with that tech demo, XsX could definitely do it, but with:
-Lower level of detail
-Lower number of polygons
-Higher Resolution
assuming that XsX is 1/2 the speed of PS5 SSD. I personally dont think this is true, but since this is coming from Tim Sweeney himself, I have to believe him. I DONT BELEIVE HIM.

 

[M1chl]

Bernkastel can you please answer this inquiry, specifically for XsX SSD? Since you have researched this really well. I put this in the PS5 SSD thread as well.

Based on the unreal 5.0 engine, they established this new bottleneck:

"[The level of detail such as textures, light, appearance of shapes, colors, patterns + the generation of billions of triangles = assets] is limited by stream of data of those assets coming from where it is stored (SSD)"

People are inferring that with that tech demo, XsX could definitely do it, but with:
-Lower level of detail
-Lower number of polygons
-Higher Resolution
assuming that XsX is 1/2 the speed of PS5 SSD. I personally dont think this is true, but since this is coming from Tim Sweeney himself, I have to believe him. I DONT BELEIVE HIM.

 

[LostDonkey]

Very hard to read in dark mode.