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Sexism in the Star Citizen forums [Update: RSI responds]

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Make a forum that forcefully excludes an entire group?

If it was for something that had merit, that could earned like a rank (does Star Citizen have ranks or levels? I don't know enough about this game) then it would be acceptable.

If it is for something that you have no control over then it is discrimination.

Hopefully now you can see why it is a bad idea.
 

Marcel

Member
edvuSTB.png


Fucking wow.

Here's the link if you want to read more fun arguments I guess.

It's not as gross as I thought it would be but it's clear a lot of people in there are pretty entrenched in not having a more thoughtful or nuanced opinion on the subject. "I'm a white male being attacked! Grr! Argh!" kind of reactions.

Though this one had me chuckling:

Honest to god, this isn't a mountain, it's a molehole. A small molehill that this martyr has painted pink and declared a mountain. You don't call out a large company in the public eye because you were silenced. You don't then give no evidence in your defence. You do not then criticise an employee dealing with the case in doing his job, when he has given you the correct avenues to chase down to get it sorted. And you do not then aim to take this to the CEO of the company because you've been banned for a week and are shit-stirring. This all comes across like an entitlement issue blown a mile out of proportion.

Look at all this imperious bullshit, haha. It's a little sad that I can only laugh at some of this trash.
 

PBY

Banned
Make a forum that forcefully excludes an entire group?

If it was for something that had merit, that could earned like a rank (does Star Citizen have ranks or levels? I don't know enough about this game) then it would be acceptable.

If it is for something that you have no control over then it is discrimination.

Hopefully now you can see why it is a bad idea.
Nope. Still haven't said who it harms.
 
Honestly, even if you think it's a bad idea, who gives a fuck. She bought (backed) the product, the community is terrible in her opinion, and the mods aren't doing/haven't done enough for her to feel like she can just start a thread and have it work, so she's creating an alternative and advertising it through the forum. There's not really any thing to do to stop people who agree from joining. If the forum isn't as bad as she says it is, she won't get any members and things will carry on as usual.

I literally don't see why any response other than 'It's a shame you feel this community is that toxic' is being made. So many people who aren't the target of her group trying to tell her that her idea is bad just cements that it has merit.

Also, regarding SA being insincere or trollish, I read about this first in a thread there about pointing out how shitty gaming communities can be with regards to diversity and stuff like that. Painting all goons with that brush is unfair.
 
Make a forum that forcefully excludes an entire group?

If it was for something that had merit, that could earned like a rank (does Star Citizen have ranks or levels? I don't know enough about this game) then it would be acceptable.

If it is for something that you have no control over then it is discrimination.

Hopefully now you can see why it is a bad idea.

Nobody was forcefully excluded. People voluntarily chose be apart of the group. If anything the sexism present on the standard boards was the only forceful element in this entire debacle.
 

Marcel

Member
Make a forum that forcefully excludes an entire group?

If it was for something that had merit, that could earned like a rank (does Star Citizen have ranks or levels? I don't know enough about this game) then it would be acceptable.

If it is for something that you have no control over then it is discrimination.

Hopefully now you can see why it is a bad idea.

Uhhh it's not doing anything to the men "forcefully". The only "force", if you even want to call it that, in this situation is the women wanting a refuge from the shitty discussions on the official forum. There's nothing wrong with a safe space for discussion and as evidenced by some of the toxic shit there, I can't say I blame them.

Edit: And as EdibleKnife points out there's lots of aggression present toward women on that forum, no doubt about it.
 

Wazzy

Banned
Make a forum that forcefully excludes an entire group?

If it was for something that had merit, that could earned like a rank (does Star Citizen have ranks or levels? I don't know enough about this game) then it would be acceptable.

If it is for something that you have no control over then it is discrimination.

Hopefully now you can see why it is a bad idea.

Nothing you just said shows it's a bad idea.

The reason such groups exist is due to the discrimination towards women in the first place.
 
Why worry about a good idea that doesn't affect you personally at all? You know that these types of groups already exist and promote positive agendas in the real world, right?
To be fair, you should probably lay off the passive aggressive posts. All that does is make people less inclined to listen to you when you have something important to say.
 
That's kind of a big conclusion to leap to. There's also no video interview mentioned in the OP. There is a voice interview.

Mentioned in the OP:

To qualify to become a member you need to identify as a female (absolutely no guys) and that's it.

Pertaining to the voice interview, It isn't clear on how males that identify as female would or would not qualify.

The trans community shouldn't have to worry about discrimination.
 

Patryn

Member
Make a forum that forcefully excludes an entire group?

If it was for something that had merit, that could earned like a rank (does Star Citizen have ranks or levels? I don't know enough about this game) then it would be acceptable.

If it is for something that you have no control over then it is discrimination.

Hopefully now you can see why it is a bad idea.

I suggest you read the previous 4 pages to see this argument taken totally apart.
 

Marcel

Member
To be fair, you should probably lay off the passive aggressive posts. All that does is make people less inclined to listen to you when you have something important to say.

He's free to ignore me and I'm free to make light of his uninformed opinions. We're on Page 9 now there's no excuse for it.

Mentioned in the OP:

To qualify to become a member you need to identify as a female (absolutely no guys) and that's it.

Pertaining to the voice interview, It isn't clear on how males that identify as female would or would not qualify.

The trans community shouldn't have to worry about discrimination.

Nothing in the OP reads as anything that sinister. You're drawing conclusions from a lack of evidence. While I "appreciate" your "defense" of the transgender, I'm sure a lot more would have been worked out before bigots blew the whole thing up.
 

Wazzy

Banned
Mentioned in the OP:

To qualify to become a member you need to identify as a female (absolutely no guys) and that's it.

Pertaining to the voice interview, It isn't clear on how males that identify as female would or would not qualify.

The trans community shouldn't have to worry about discrimination.

Guys, once we have infrastructure setup, please feel free to get involved in the public areas but of course the private areas will be reserved for members only.

So it's only excluding men on the private area's of the group while the public parts are still open to them.
 

hellclerk

Everything is tsundere to me
I don't know why you guys are giving attention to this girl. The Goons have been trying to destabilize the Star Citizen forums and get the forum mods kicked for months now. This whole "sexism" thing is a dishonest ruse to get the moderator staff fired and leverage some undeserved influence on the community. As a whole, the Star Citizen community is pretty damn tolerant sometimes to the point of silliness (like getting uppity about form-fitting space suit concepts and a lack of female pilot so far), so this blog post is at best disingenuous and at worst straight-up dishonest and misrepresentatitive.

I understand where the conversation has ended up, but it doesn't change that this is a bold-faced hijacking of the issue and not an honest interpretation of the forum situation.
 

Marcel

Member
I don't know why you guys are giving attention to this girl. The Goons have been trying to destabilize the Star Citizen forums and get the forum mods kicked for months now. This whole "sexism" thing is a dishonest ruse to get the moderator staff fired and leverage some undeserved influence on the community. As a whole, the Star Citizen community is pretty damn tolerant sometimes to the point of silliness (like getting uppity about form-fitting space suit concepts and a lack of female pilot so far), so this blog post is at best disingenuous and at worst straight-up dishonest and misrepresentatitive.

I understand where the conversation has ended up, but it doesn't change that this is a bold-faced hijacking of the issue and not an honest interpretation of the forum situation.

I keep seeing this Something Awful conspiracy shit and yet no one names names or presents any actual evidence aside from "they're doing it please believe me star citizen is good".
 
He's free to ignore me and I'm free to make light of his uninformed opinions. We're on Page 9 now there's no excuse for it.
Whatever man. I'm just saying if you want to actually try and change people's minds about something, you probably shouldn't go around trying to passive aggressively insult them at the same time. You shouldn't want him to ignore you, you should want him to listen to you.
 

Kazerei

Banned
Make a forum that forcefully excludes an entire group?

If it was for something that had merit, that could earned like a rank (does Star Citizen have ranks or levels? I don't know enough about this game) then it would be acceptable.

If it is for something that you have no control over then it is discrimination.

Hopefully now you can see why it is a bad idea.

Nope, I still don't see why it's a bad idea. There have been clubs and organizations for minority groups in real life for as long as ever. Is that a problem?

It's a poor argument to just say that making gender the basis for something is discriminatory and wrong, while ignoring the entire context. Men aren't the ones feeling unwelcome and left out here. Women are. And the vicious response to the thread only reinforces that the women deserve a place to feel safe.
 

kinshadow

Member
I don't know why you guys are giving attention to this girl. The Goons have been trying to destabilize the Star Citizen forums and get the forum mods kicked for months now. This whole "sexism" thing is a dishonest ruse to get the moderator staff fired and leverage some undeserved influence on the community. As a whole, the Star Citizen community is pretty damn tolerant sometimes to the point of silliness (like getting uppity about form-fitting space suit concepts and a lack of female pilot so far), so this blog post is at best disingenuous and at worst straight-up dishonest and misrepresentatitive.

I understand where the conversation has ended up, but it doesn't change that this is a bold-faced hijacking of the issue and not an honest interpretation of the forum situation.

Pretty much this. A serious post gets very sketchy if coming from a Goon. I don't have anything personal aginst them (I know a few IRL), but the moderators barely tolerate them and they have "earned" a guilty-until-proved-innocent rap in both EVE and SC.

Perhaps the poster would have gotten more support if they didn't put a logo in their sig AND avatar for a guild that was notorious for trolling?
 

Marcel

Member
Whatever man. I'm just saying if you want to actually try and change people's minds about something, you probably shouldn't go around trying to passive aggressively insult them at the same time.

It's my experience that the people that are entrenched in either active or cloaked bigotry elect to stay entrenched regardless of what I say. This isn't my first rodeo.
 
It's my experience that the people that are entrenched in either active or cloaked bigotry elect to stay entrenched regardless of what I say. This isn't my first rodeo.
Then ignore them? Because all you're doing with that passive aggressiveness is getting some people to take you less seriously. Which doesn't help when they already disagree with you.

Plus, when you made that statement you weren't even quoting someone who disagreed with you. You took a pot shot to take a pot shot.
 
Why make passive-aggressive statements like this?

Coping mechanism / stress relief.

To be fair, you should probably lay off the passive aggressive posts. All that does is make people less inclined to listen to you when you have something important to say.

This is called a tone argument, and it's spurious.

If people aren't going to listen because we're angry then I don't want them as "allies". Real allies would realize the anger is warranted.

As a an example for the transgender issues.

I'm sorry, why is this guy not permabanned exactly?

Seriously. Fucking A, thanks for the reminder why I almost never talk about substantive matters that affect me here. I do not want to subject myself to the ignorance of many of the people in that disgusting thread. I struggle enough with depression without seeing what horrific ideas rando jerks believe about people like me.

I know it's not great forum etiquette, but In the rare occasions I do speak up I tend to post and run; I'm afraid to see what ugliness my dissenting opinion will provoke. Just putting my non-mainstream opinion out there is enough stressful energy expenditure for one day. Or more usually week, or month.

"But wait," says entitled privileged person, "if you don't teach us, how can I learn?"

It's not my job to educate their ignorance. I do not have the energy for that. If someone truly wants to learn where they're getting things wrong the Internet is the single best resource available to do so with. The Internet has infinite patience and doesn't have to worry about treating them with kid gloves so they won't throw another tantrum. The Internet doesn't have limited emotional reserves it must carefully choose how to allocate.

Not one of those things is true for the oppressed minority being asked to educate.

This is simply not true. It is incredibly rare that female posters attempt to demonize men as a group. I'm not speaking hypothetically, I'm speaking as someone who actually moderates these threads. No matter how benign the framing of the discussion, the threads fill with male posters making false equivalences and denying that sexism really exists.

And it's not just sexism. Many of our transgendered members refuse to even participate in trans threads because of how genuinely nasty some posters get. Members of BlackGAF are increasingly frustrated, and increasingly unwilling to engage, because every thread involving racism devolves into a thread arguing about whether it even exists.

And I see the same dumb "why is there no white history month" post in those threads that we've seen in here.

There's a problem, and it's fairly easily identifiable. A subset of white male posters exist on GAF who thrive on shitting on oppressed minorities. Whether they're secret Red Pillers or just garden variety entitled guys who are incapable of empathy, they routinely shit up these sorts of threads and make it nearly impossible for rational folk to have a discussion.

I couldn't pick just part of this to quote, it's all very true. It is nice to see it coming from a mod. I bolded a bit at the end because I think ignorant randos tend to be more of the issue in non-MRA forums like NeoGAF than actual die-hard MRA crazies, which don't tend to last long.

So many privileged people walk around cheerfully oblivious to the slanted nature of their societal programming, blissfully unaware of the ways their automatic, typically unexamined behaviors actively hurt and injure minorities who happen to cross their paths. They think the playing field is level, so at the merest hint that this is not so they become unreasonably, aggressively defensive, lashing out at what they perceive as an injustice against their own esteemed benevolence. They literally have no idea that in fact the opposite is true; their self-righteous bluster is directly harming a party who's already got the short end of society's stick.
 
Coping mechanism / stress relief.



This is called a tone argument, and it's spurious.
There is a difference between being angry and trying to passive aggressively insult people. You can be angry and still get an eloquent point across.

The saying "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." exists for a reason.

It's also weird that you only want certain people to agree with you when the topic is pretty much about equality.
 

Buzzman

Banned
I don't know why you guys are giving attention to this girl.

Oh is that what she's after?

Marcel said:
I keep seeing this Something Awful conspiracy shit and yet no one names names or presents any actual evidence aside from "they're doing it please believe me star citizen is good".

Nah man, look at this evil conspiracy:
rDmoeMv.png
 

besada

Banned
Then ignore them? Because all you're doing with that passive aggressiveness is getting some people to take you less seriously. Which doesn't help when they already disagree with you.

And now you're engaging in unhelpful meta-commentary about someone else's posts, without actually being involved in the larger discussion.

Also, it's not your job to direct other posters how to post. While I'm sure you're deeply "concerned" that Marcel might upset someone, that doesn't alter forum rules on backseat moderation or meta-commentary.

I'd suggest you take your own advice and ignore them.
 

Marcel

Member
Seriously. Fucking A, thanks for the reminder why I almost never talk about substantive matters that affect me here. I do not want to subject myself to the ignorance of many of the people in that disgusting thread. I struggle enough with depression without seeing what horrific ideas rando jerks believe about people like me.

I know it's not great forum etiquette, but In the rare occasions I do speak up I tend to post and run; I'm afraid to see what ugliness my dissenting opinion will provoke. Just putting my non-mainstream opinion out there is enough stressful energy expenditure for one day. Or more usually week, or month.

"But wait," says entitled privileged person, "if you don't teach us, how can I learn?"

It's not my job to educate their ignorance. I do not have the energy for that. If someone truly wants to learn where they're getting things wrong the Internet is the single best resource available to do so with. The Internet has infinite patience and doesn't have to worry about treating them with kid gloves so they won't throw another tantrum. The Internet doesn't have limited emotional reserves it must carefully choose how to allocate.

Not one of those things is true for the oppressed minority being asked to educate.


I couldn't pick just part of this to quote, it's all very true. It is nice to see it coming from a mod. I bolded a bit at the end because I think ignorant randos tend to be more of the issue in non-MRA forums like NeoGAF than actual die-hard MRA crazies, which don't tend to last long.

So many privileged people walk around cheerfully oblivious to the slanted nature of their societal programming, blissfully unaware of the ways their automatic, typically unexamined behaviors actively hurt and injure minorities who happen to cross their paths. They think the playing field is level, so at the merest hint that this is not so they become unreasonably, aggressively defensive, lashing out at what they perceive as an injustice against their own esteemed benevolence. They literally have no idea that in fact the opposite is true; their self-righteous bluster is directly harming a party who's already got the short end of society's stick.

Holy shit. Wow. It's like you mentally intercepted something I wanted to type.

Thank you. It takes a lot to put yourself out there like that.
 
And now you're engaging in unhelpful meta-commentary about someone else's posts, without actually being involved in the larger discussion.

Also, it's not your job to direct other posters how to post. While I'm sure you're deeply "concerned" that Marcel might upset someone, that doesn't alter forum rules on backseat moderation or meta-commentary.

I'd suggest you take your own advice and ignore them.
If that's what you want. I was just trying to help out.
 

hellclerk

Everything is tsundere to me
I keep seeing this Something Awful conspiracy shit and yet no one names names or presents any actual evidence aside from "they're doing it please believe me star citizen is good".
Because the Goons have been playing victim from the start. This is just the latest in a long line of instances where they've cried oppression after provoking the normal forumites. Hell, they fed the whole Goons are the new boogieman scare that drove up once it was clear some EVE vets were moving over to Star Citizen and the moderation staff clamped down on their trolling. When they couldn't get any sympathy for oppression of Goons as a group, they branched out to wider-reaching issues that were popular and started to try gathering support out of that. This isn't even some grand, far-reaching conspiracy, it's the same group of active posters "standing up" for what they "believe in". The truth is Something Awful has NEVER been a den of social justice and politically correct opinions, and they're not going to suddenly become one out of nowhere. The issue is real in the grand scheme of the internet, but they're rusing you, pal.
 

Mistel

Banned
I do not want to subject myself to the ignorance of many of the people in that disgusting thread. I struggle enough with depression without seeing what horrific ideas rando jerks believe about people like me.
The backwards ideas and the stigma attached to us is appalling to say the least none of us should be subjected to it here.
 
There is a difference between being angry and trying to passive aggressively insult people. You can be angry and still get an eloquent point across.

The saying "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." exists for a reason.

There are lots of "common sense" aphorisms that are problematic.

It's also weird that you only want certain people to agree with you when the topic is pretty much about equality.

lol (for real, I chuckled). That's a new one.

Some people aren't worth the effort... see my comments about only having so much energy to spare. No offense (I know, that's impossible), but your comments so far also put you in that camp IMO. All you seem concerned about is how angry the aggrieved parties are, but if they'd only learn some decorum and how to discuss like civilized folk you'd surely be ready to listen.

Riiiiiiight. Nah, you just want to give obvious, heard-a-million-times (hence the term tone argument), unwanted advice about how we shouldn't be so mean to the nice people who would be sympathetic IF conditions upon conditions, now jump through these additional hoops, don't forget your kid gloves, etc. etc.

If that's what you want. I was just trying to help out.

Haha, wow. Look how grateful we have been to your attempts to "help." Maybe that's a hint you're barking up the wrong tree? No?
 

Marcel

Member
Because the Goons have been playing victim from the start. This is just the latest in a long line of instances where they've cried oppression after provoking the normal forumites. Hell, they fed the whole Goons are the new boogieman scare that drove up once it was clear some EVE vets were moving over to Star Citizen and the moderation staff clamped down on their trolling. When they couldn't get any sympathy for oppression of Goons as a group, they branched out to wider-reaching issues that were popular and started to try gathering support out of that. This isn't even some grand, far-reaching conspiracy, it's the same group of active posters "standing up" for what they "believe in". The truth is Something Awful has NEVER been a den of social justice and politically correct opinions, and they're not going to suddenly become one out of nowhere. The issue is real in the grand scheme of the internet, but they're rusing you, pal.

Saying I'm being "rused" is cute and punchy and all but it seems like you're working yourself up with all this message board rivalry conspiracy shit. Put up or shut up. Where's the actual evidence? "It's a conspiracy because I say so! You're being tricked by [insert group here]!" is not evidence and is just some Alex Jones tier logic.
 

PBY

Banned
With female members stating how unwelcome it is for their group to have discussions
and then start a movement for a separate forum to provide that enviornment, I think the
staff of the Star Citizen forum would see it as a harmful solution.
Harmful to whom though?
 
I appreciate what Zen_Arcade is doing, going into threads like this it is usually support one side completely or be trolled/hated on.

I'm reading more into this and am glad there are solutions stated for the concerns of discrimination.
 
I've deleted two or three posts already because Marcel said it better than me. Gaming forums are male-dominated both in sheer numbers and the overall pervasive mentality found in nearly every thread. If a relatively small group wants to create a sub-forum, that's not sexist or exclusionary to the privileged majority (wtf, they already have everything else catering to them on the site). To the number of people who have said "what if men create their own group, hmmm?" I say go ahead. I guarantee the women who vouched for the womens-only group don't give a fuck. As explained above, entire forums are already practically all-male in several ways. Secondly, the womens group would be created as a safe place to chat, while the male group (unnecessary on a near-100% male site) would be created for reasons of anger, spite and malice -- it's like the guy in the poker example who just wants to ruin shit for the minority group to "prove a point."



I'm still working my way through this thread, but why are you telling the calmest, most level headed person in the thread to "calm down?" It makes your intentions very transparent when you don't also tell a dozen other far louder, more childish, more sensationalist posters* to be calm or settle down.
*Because they happen agree with your stance and voice similar sentiments, so obviously you feel no need to quiet them down.



Agree with this. I think it's an outright lie and misguided to say it's unfair to the men who overwhelmingly dominate every other aspect of a board.

Yes. My intentions. My intention to voice my opinion in a thread of many others voicing their opinions. I don't address the entire thread, only those points I think are worthwhile pursuing. This is a common thing in threads like these, there's far too many voices.

I simply ignore the loud/obnoxious noisemakers. I do try live by my own philosophy you know.

And I said calm down because of this:

Distrustful petty behavior on the part of small people shouldn't be on the forefront of anyone's minds. Women or the many other groups who feel the affects of prejudice should not have to dictate their behavior as a result of a few disgusting bigots.

And the whole "secretive" thing is laughable. What's the great secret in a women's group? I'll tell you. They're talking about whatever it is human beings talk about, which covers just about everything. Whoa big fucking deal right.[

That statement indicated, to me, not being calm. I simply tried to make sure they saw that perhaps their language makes them come on as not being calm in discussion, which often leads people to not consider your arguments.

Please avoid putting words, thoughts or philosophies into my mouth. You have no clue who I am, where I come from, or what I do. I have made no assumptions of others in this thread and expect people to do the same with me.

I take offense to the idea that I cannot be pro women/LGBT/human rights without agreeing with your separatist ideology. I cannot stress enough how much I believe in equality for all, which is exactly what I preach and how I behave. Open your mind instead of seeing everyone as with or against you, that sort of attitude doesn't help any causes.
 
There are lots of "common sense" aphorisms that are problematic.



lol (for real, I chuckled). That's a new one.

Some people aren't worth the effort... see my comments about only having so much energy to spare. No offense (I know, that's impossible), but your comments so far also put you in that camp IMO. All you seem concerned about is how angry the aggrieved parties are, but if they'd only learn some decorum and how to discuss like civilized folk you'd surely be ready to listen.

Riiiiiiight. Nah, you just want to give obvious, heard-a-million-times (hence the term tone argument), unwanted advice about how we shouldn't be so mean to the nice people who would be sympathetic IF conditions upon conditions, now jump through these additional hoops, don't forget your kid gloves, etc. etc.
You can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm not going to get offended at whatever you think. Supposedly I'm not supposed to comment on the subject anymore, so I won't after this. The irony of your post is that I don't have to listen to what either of you are saying, and you don't have to try to convince me of anything because I already agree with your points. My only problem was with Marcel's attitude.
 

Septy

Member
Because the Goons have been playing victim from the start. This is just the latest in a long line of instances where they've cried oppression after provoking the normal forumites. Hell, they fed the whole Goons are the new boogieman scare that drove up once it was clear some EVE vets were moving over to Star Citizen and the moderation staff clamped down on their trolling. When they couldn't get any sympathy for oppression of Goons as a group, they branched out to wider-reaching issues that were popular and started to try gathering support out of that. This isn't even some grand, far-reaching conspiracy, it's the same group of active posters "standing up" for what they "believe in". The truth is Something Awful has NEVER been a den of social justice and politically correct opinions, and they're not going to suddenly become one out of nowhere. The issue is real in the grand scheme of the internet, but they're rusing you, pal.

It's hard to gauge. The forum, particularly games has been a haven for trolling like this.

However, politics and social views have changed a lot over there. Anything less than perfect orthodoxy on issues of gender there leads to a probation or being chased out. Even after some of the more prominent SJWs over there were exposed as creeps, hypocrites and even in one case a child molestor. The culture there has changed a lot.

It's also probably one of the reasons the forum's popularity has dropped dramatically.
 

hellclerk

Everything is tsundere to me
Saying I'm being "rused" is cute and punchy and all but it seems like you're working yourself up with all this message board rivalry conspiracy shit. Put up or shut up. Where's the actual evidence? "It's a conspiracy because I say so! You're being tricked by [insert group here]!" is not evidence and is just some Alex Jones tier logic.
This is a specific group that has a history of this shit. I've actually seen threads like this on the forums that gather up a little support, fizzle, and die all on their own without the mods interfering, and I'm fairly certain there's at least one female-only organization already made or in the works. I'm not going into the RSI forum archives for hours to find evidence you'll just say is nitpicked anyway. There's a good deal of it that's just straight-up deleted. Hell, if that thread was still up, I could probably post clear examples of Goons playing provocateurs instead of those choice quotes from the blog.

Listen, if you had experience with this specific group, you might be singing a different tune, but backing these jackasses doesn't do anything except cheapen actual efforts for sex and gender equality in gaming. Don't mistake my suspicion of this specific context as a blanket disapproval of the issue.
 
This is simply not true. It is incredibly rare that female posters attempt to demonize men as a group. I'm not speaking hypothetically, I'm speaking as someone who actually moderates these threads. No matter how benign the framing of the discussion, the threads fill with male posters making false equivalences and denying that sexism really exists.

And it's not just sexism. Many of our transgendered members refuse to even participate in trans threads because of how genuinely nasty some posters get. Members of BlackGAF are increasingly frustrated, and increasingly unwilling to engage, because every thread involving racism devolves into a thread arguing about whether it even exists.

And I see the same dumb "why is there no white history month" post in those threads that we've seen in here.

There's a problem, and it's fairly easily identifiable. A subset of white male posters exist on GAF who thrive on shitting on oppressed minorities. Whether they're secret Red Pillers or just garden variety entitled guys who are incapable of empathy, they routinely shit up these sorts of threads and make it nearly impossible for rational folk to have a discussion.

Besada, how are you so gangster?

I can say firsthand that there are definitely some people who don't feel comfortable posting in general threads because of the turns they take, and sometimes amazement is even expressed at those who try to post in those threads at all. It does get tiring to try to have a conversation while simultaneously deflecting thrown tomatoes.
 
You can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm not going to get offended at whatever you think. Supposedly I'm not supposed to comment on the subject anymore, so I won't after this. The irony of your post is that I don't have to listen to what either of you are saying, and you don't have to try to convince me of anything because I already agree with your points. My only problem was with Marcel's attitude.

IANAM, but you'd probably be welcome to continue participating if you simply stopped doing the one thing you've been called out for this page (making tone arguments, which are derailing and unhelpful).

Take care though (not sarcastic).
 

kinshadow

Member
It seems like it already had a bad reputation before this issue blew up.

Goons had a bad rap from EVE before they even came to SC. Most people believe their guild motto is basically permission to troll.

I know several Goons IRL and they are good guys, but I have yet to find one that shies away from the behavior that got them their trolling rep. On top of that, many people in the SC forums believe they are linked to all sorts of scams and infamous figures, which I don't think they are guilty of (Baragoon), but the rep sticks.

If the original poster wants respect she should know to post without here guild being so blatantly advertised. If she doesn't know the reputation her own guild has, I have very little sympathy for her. It is very obvious to me why she was met with hostility and the whole thing sounded creepy given the context.
 

PBY

Banned
Goons had a bad rap from EVE before they even came to SC. Most people believe their guild motto is basically permission to troll.

I know several Goons IRL and they are good guys, but I have yet to find one that shies away from the behavior that got them their trolling rep. On top of that, many people in the SC forums believe they are linked to all sorts of scams and infamous figures, which I don't think they are guilty of (Baragoon), but the rep sticks.

If the original poster wants respect she should know to post without here guild being so blatantly advertised. If she doesn't know the reputation her own guild has, I have very little sympathy for her. It is very obvious to me why she was met with hostility and the whole thing sounded creepy given the context.
Her post wasn't trollish at all tho. It's you that's bringing the baggage to a benign post.
 

Marcel

Member
Goons had a bad rap from EVE before they even came to SC. Most people believe their guild motto is basically permission to troll.

I know several Goons IRL and they are good guys, but I have yet to find one that shies away from the behavior that got them their trolling rep. On top of that, many people in the SC forums believe they are linked to all sorts of scams and infamous figures, which I don't think they are guilty of (Baragoon), but the rep sticks.

If the original poster wants respect she should know to post without here guild being so blatantly advertised. If she doesn't know the reputation her own guild has, I have very little sympathy for her. It is very obvious to me why she was met with hostility and the whole thing sounded creepy given the context.

I don't see "trollish" at all. I also don't see the conspiracy angle because it's all this childish hearsay. Scams and shit like that exist to be sure but nobody is showing anything to prove it other than "I could show you but here's why I can't". Yeah that really makes me want to believe you.
 
She even tries to divorce the post from the "Goonrathi" and "Organizational politics." As an outside viewer it seems pretty legitimate.
 

Gestahl

Member
The thread on Somethingawful specifically made for making fun of SC and those wonderful people who've given it 43 million dollars talks about a racist hotdog stand kickstarter that their own members stupidly donated money to more than this stupid game so the idea of a ~conspiracy~ is hilarious
 
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