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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

N

numble

Member
Surfinn said:
I think too many people are forgetting that JJ no longer has control over the next two films. His ideas for Rey will be changed as the other writers and directors see fit, if they like.
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He is executive producer, like Lucas was for the OT sequels. How is that lack of control?
 
S

Surfinn

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
If he's executive producer, that means he still gets alot of control on who he chooses to direct/write, whether scenes have to be refilmed or the script has to be changed, among other things. Basically JJAbrams is trying to mimic George Lucas, where George wrote and directed the first movie and then moved to a producer role for the subsequent sequels.

I mean, people are right to call out TFA as having alot of references to the OT. But JJAbrams is going meta and following the role of George Lucas. So I think the sequels will be alright in that sense. And like I said, JJAbramas probably chose the writer based on aligning visions(Or he can just reorder a script, after all they already said they're rewriting some of it)
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Can you link me to anything that points to JJ choosing writers for the next two films? Cuz that's news to me. Rian Johnson is writing the script for the next film and Colin Trevorrow/someone else for 9. JJ said in an interview that Rian's script is great and that the next movie is his story to tell.

Didn't sound like he had a lot of control to me. Don't have the links though.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
numble said:
He is executive producer, like Lucas was for the OT sequels. How is that lack of control?
Click to expand...

Mhm, alot of people assume that Directors and to a lesser extent writers have alot of power when it comes to making a movie in their vision. The real power is in the Producers, and Executive Producers tend to have alot of power when it comes to making movies.

All JJAbrams being an Exec Prod for VIII and IX means that he's not behind the camera or directly writing the script. Otherwise, he determines where and how much each shot costs, whether a scene should be refilmed or filmed a certain way, and whether a rewrite will happen or ordering a new script.

If you want to make a movie, you always want to be an Exec Prod. That's why alot of famous Directors(Like Steven Spielberg) tend to have both credits as Director and Exec Prod. It gives them the most control over every aspect of filming.

Surfinn said:
Can you link me to anything that points to JJ choosing writers for the next two films? Cuz that's news to me. Rian Johnson is writing the script for the next film and Colin Trevorrow/someone else for 9. JJ said in an interview that Rian's script is great and that the next movie is his story to tell.

Didn't sound like he had a lot of control to me. Don't have the links though.
Click to expand...

I don't work at Lucasfilms so I can't give you that information, but either way Abrams being an Exec Prod means that he has influence on things like directing or writing. Whether he picked them directly or was given the next writers by higher ups in the company to work with(I did say probably), Abrams will probably have say in how they continue Rey's story.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
Mhm, alot of people assume that Directors and to a lesser extent writers have alot of power when it comes to making a movie in their vision. The real power is in the Producers, and Executive Producers tend to have alot of power when it comes to making movies.

All JJAbrams being an Exec Prod for VIII and IX means that he's not behind the camera or directly writing the script. Otherwise, he determines where and how much each shot costs, whether a scene should be refilmed or filmed a certain way, and whether a rewrite will happen or ordering a new script.

If you want to make a movie, you always want to be an Exec Prod. That's why alot of famous Directors(Like Steven Spielberg) tend to have both credits as Director and Exec Prod. It gives them the most control over every aspect of filming.



I don't work at Lucasfilms so I can't give you that information, but either way Abrams being an Exec Prod means that he has influence on things like directing or writing. Whether he picked them directly or was given the next writers by higher ups in the company to work with(I did say probably), Abrams will probably have say in how they continue Rey's story.
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Those are good points, but JJ specifically said in an interview that it's Rian's story to tell, which seems to imply just that. I'm not saying JJ doesn't have a say in anything.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Surfinn said:
Those are good points, but JJ specifically said in an interview that it's Rian's story to tell, which seems to imply just that. I'm not saying JJ doesn't have a say in anything.
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True enough, wonder who ordered the rewrite then, or whether it was something Rian decided.
 
T

TyrantII

Member
I have a hard time believing Lawrence Kasdan and JJ didn't hammer out the draft script for all three already.

I'm sure there will be changes, lots of dialogue to add, but Disney isn't going to just let two other directors and a litany of writers take the next two wherever they want.

I mean hell, they got Kasdan to write the Han Solo origins movie as well.
 
N

numble

Member
http://www.wired.com/2015/11/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-interview/
The script for VIII is written. I’m sure rewrites are going to be endless, like they always are. But what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible. I showed Rian an early cut of the movie, because I knew he was doing his rewrite and prepping. And as executive producer of VIII, I need that movie to be really good. Withholding serves no one and certainly not the fans. So we’ve been as transparent as possible.

Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well. But you’re right—that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit. He’s neither asking for nor does he need me to oversee the process.
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There was also a podcast where he said Rian asked for things and some things he accommodated but some other things he required Rian to make changes in VIII's plan because Abrams wasn't going to change things:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/race/awards-chatter-podcast-jj-abrams-853171
"Larry and I had a bunch of thoughts of where certain things could go and we shared those things with Rian Johnson, who's directing VIII. He had things that he came up with where he asked if it was possible if we could make some adjustments with what we were doing at the end, most of which we did — there were just a couple that didn't feel right, so he made adjustments — but it was just collaboration.
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S

Surfinn

Member
numble said:
http://www.wired.com/2015/11/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-interview/


There was also a podcast where he said Rian asked for things and some things he accommodated but some other things he required Rian to make changes in VIII's plan because Abrams wasn't going to change things.
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The last two sentences should have been bolded (wire quote). JJ says right there that it's Rian's movie and that he doesn't need it to be overseen by him. Sounds like there were just a lot of agreements on where the story should go, which made things much smoother.

Thanks for the link.
 
N

numble

Member
Surfinn said:
The last two sentences should have been bolded (wire quote). JJ says right there that it's Rian's movie and that he doesn't need it to be overseen by him. Sounds like there were just a lot of agreements on where the story should go, which made things much smoother.

Thanks for the link.
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I guess I consider that lip service. He is not going to try to unnecessarily overshadow his director. It's enough that the executive director and Kasden tell you how the story is intended to flow. I also don't think Trevorrow will be allowed to take it far off the course that has been set.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Also from that Wired interview:

JJ Abrams said:
As a fan of Star Wars, I can look at those movies and both respect and love what they’ve done. But working on The Force Awakens, we’ve had to consider them in a slightly different context. For example, it’s very easy to love “I am your father.” But when you think about how and when and where that came, I’m not sure that even Star Wars itself could have supported that story point had it existed in the first film, Episode IV. Meaning: It was a massively powerful, instantly classic moment in movie history, but it was only possible because it stood on the shoulders of the film that came before it. There had been a couple of years to allow the idea of Darth Vader to sink in, to let him emerge as one of the greatest movie villains ever. Time built up everyone’s expectations about the impending conflict between Luke and Vader. If “I am your father” had been in the first film, I don’t know if it would have had the resonance. I actually don’t know if it would have worked.
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I think this is why they decided not to handle Ren's family reveal as a big dramatic moment (on the bridge with Han) - it wouldn't have felt earned. So they saved up something for the second or third film with Rey.
 
Lokimaru

Lokimaru

Member
If Rey isn't a Skywalker then why is she even here? She wouldn't have a horse in the race otherwise. Why do that? Creative Douchebaggery like that killed the Mass Effect series for me and I'd hate to see Star Wars go down that that road.
 
H

heliosRAzi

Banned
Surfinn said:
The last two sentences should have been bolded (wire quote). JJ says right there that it's Rian's movie and that he doesn't need it to be overseen by him. Sounds like there were just a lot of agreements on where the story should go, which made things much smoother.

Thanks for the link.
Click to expand...

Writers are rarely given control over movies as big as this. Rian is going to make a draft and send it to the studio and producers. They'll send back notes on it saying this should be that or whatever. The writer will have to incorporate those notes into the next draft and then send it back in. It'll go like this for some time until the studio and producers are satisfied. In the end, the script doesn't belong to the writer, it belongs to the studio and if the studio wants something, the studio will get it.

With Rian being the director over the next film, he has a lot more sway than if he were just the writer, but he still has to contend with the studio and producers because it is their movies. There may be a point where Rian could be "fired" from being the writer and they could bring in someone else.

Oh yeah, when a movie wins Best Picture at the Oscars, the producer is the one who accepts it. Not the director, writer, or anyone else.

Lokimaru said:
If Rey isn't a Skywalker then why is she even here? She wouldn't have a horse in the race otherwise. Why do that? Creative Douchebaggery like that killed the Mass Effect series for me and I'd hate to see Star Wars go down that that road.
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How is that creative douchebaggery? Is there are specific need for Rey to be a Skywalker?
 
G

gtvdave

Member
All my analysis comes to this. Palpatine/Sidious was Anakin's father all along.

He hid him from eyes of his master, Snoke. Not in order to keep him alive, but to get rid of him. Palpatine abandoned Anakin on Tattoine in order to keep his power.

When Anakin was brought in by the Jedi Order, he had to secretly turn him to the dark side without revealing Vader's true identity. He gave Anakin a mask, he gave him Vader.

After Sidious attempted and failed to turn his grandson Luke, it was Vader, his own son, who killed him to protect his own child. Vader embraced his identity and showed his true face to Luke. Sidious never did. Darth Sidious kept his identity secret from Vader and it cost him his life.

Now that I came to this conclusion, Star Wars, to me, is about embracing your identity in face of darkness. The dark side is a mask that will ultimately consume you.

Snoke's face is forever lost. Ben Solo has been struggling with his mask because his father seemed to abandon him. Now that he killed his father, his identity might forever be shrouded in darkness. It will be Leia's journey to save him from Snoke. She is his path to the light side.

My hope is that Rey's identity and history of abandonment won't turn her to the dark side. Someone left her out there to keep her secret. I hope it it was not someone like Sidious who abandoned Anakin and she will embrace her family.
 
R

Rootbeer

Banned
MrJames said:
Still hoping for a 3D combo release but no announcement yet. Disney hasn't announced any UHD BD content yet.
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Hoping for a nice Steelbook or maybe a CE with a cool statue or prop replica. But yeah, I have the $20 BRD pre-ordered at amazon in the meantime!

I really hope they pack this full of extras. When the special editions were released on home video they came with a great documentary, and then later when the prequels came out on blue-ray, again, they came with some nice documentaries. Give me some beefy behind the scenes content please!

Ideally, it would rival what we've seen on the LotR discs, but I know it's folly to wish for that.
 
W

whiterabbit

Member
GhaleonEB said:
Let us know what you think of it, I'm curious about that myself. I love this movie. Might see it again this weekend.
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The novelization is exellent so far! I only read about 80 pages last night, but what I read was well-written and easy to read. It follows the movie very closely.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
Okay, so I finally saw the movie today. I haven't read the thread yet so that I won't be influenced by anybody's opinions. I will go back and read (er... some of it, anyway. Jesus, three threads on this film?)

Thoughts:

- This film in many ways felt like a "Greatest Hits" collection of Star Wars setups. I figure that's pretty crowd-pleasing but I would've liked something that took more risks, or at least was less predictable.

- I guess not having a white male lead is kind of a risk?

- I 100000% expected Luke to come in and save Rey's ass during the Kylo Ren fight. So at least THAT wasn't predictable, though I actually think I would've enjoyed it more, because:

- Kylo Ren should've kicked their asses in that snow fight. Somehow these scrubs manage to not die against a guy who has been trained in use of the Force? I mean Finn got schooled by a Storm Trooper with a sci-fi baton. And he's not immediately disarmed in lightsaber fighting a dude who carries one around constantly? Dude just tossed her into a tree a minute ago, why doesn't he just do that a couple more times? In the beginning we see him hold a laser beam in mid-air for several minutes even while he's doing other stuff, and now he can't even toss Rey's scrub ass off a cliff? Come on. I really hated this fight. I get that Rey and Finn can't die there for story purposes, but you have to figure out another way to get them out.

- For instance, Kylo Ren being so haughty and prideful and insecure that he does something overblown to kill them, which ends up backfiring and harming himself through the luck/scrappiness of the protagonists. Something that relates to his character's hubris. Or hell, Rey doing something with the force accidentally that is completely nonsensical and unintended but, out of sheer luck, manages to give her enough time to escape. Something that doesn't leave us thinking, "man, Rey's just the best there ever was, I guess."

- Rey's escape was kind of lame, too. She can do (what I thought was) an advanced Jedi mind trick just like that, with no training?

- Rey better not be a Skywalker. She better not be.

- The action was easy to follow and the movie moved along at a pretty good clip.

In closing, it's certainly better than the prequels, but Abrams is a hack. Well, okay, MI-3 was decent.
 
B

Blue Ninja

Member
timetokill said:
- Kylo Ren should've kicked their asses in that snow fight. Somehow these scrubs manage to not die against a guy who has been trained in use of the Force? I mean Finn got schooled by a Storm Trooper with a sci-fi baton. And he's not immediately disarmed in lightsaber fighting a dude who carries one around constantly? Dude just tossed her into a tree a minute ago, why doesn't he just do that a couple more times? In the beginning we see him hold a laser beam in mid-air for several minutes even while he's doing other stuff, and now he can't even toss Rey's scrub ass off a cliff? Come on. I really hated this fight. I get that Rey and Finn can't die there for story purposes, but you have to figure out another way to get them out.

- For instance, Kylo Ren being so haughty and prideful and insecure that he does something overblown to kill them, which ends up backfiring and harming himself through the luck/scrappiness of the protagonists. Something that relates to his character's hubris. Or hell, Rey doing something with the force accidentally that is completely nonsensical and unintended but, out of sheer luck, manages to give her enough time to escape. Something that doesn't leave us thinking, "man, Rey's just the best there ever was, I guess.".
Click to expand...

The only reason Finn survives is because Ren is toying with him. It's pretty obvious, too, you never see him use his full power against Finn until he manages to get a lucky hit in. After that he just takes one swipe and it's over.

Couple that with the fact that he just got shot by a weapon that makes things fucking explode and the fact that he just stabbed his father in the chest with a lightsaber. The guy's legit shook at that point, barely holding together. Then Rey pulls Anakin's lightsaber away from him, showing she's clearly more potent in the Force than him.

Ren is strong in the Force, but he's constantly conflicted between the Light and the Dark. All the training in the world doesn't help much when you're constantly doubting yourself. So when Rey starts channeling the Light Side, he's fucked.
 
W

woen

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
Mhm, alot of people assume that Directors and to a lesser extent writers have alot of power when it comes to making a movie in their vision. The real power is in the Producers, and Executive Producers tend to have alot of power when it comes to making movies.

All JJAbrams being an Exec Prod for VIII and IX means that he's not behind the camera or directly writing the script. Otherwise, he determines where and how much each shot costs, whether a scene should be refilmed or filmed a certain way, and whether a rewrite will happen or ordering a new script.

If you want to make a movie, you always want to be an Exec Prod. That's why alot of famous Directors(Like Steven Spielberg) tend to have both credits as Director and Exec Prod. It gives them the most control over every aspect of filming.
Click to expand...

Yes at least in America. In Europe you have some countries where the director has all legal and practical power over his movie (including final cut).
 
Nizz

Nizz

Member
MrJames said:
Posted yet?

Star Wars: The Force Awakens Blu-ray Combo Pack

Blu-ray/DVD/Digital HD
DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1

$20 on Amazon with an April 5th release

Still hoping for a 3D combo release but no announcement yet. Disney hasn't announced any UHD BD content yet.
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Looks like Amazon might have goofed with the date, probably announced it too early. After getting an email from them stating the date was April 5th, I got an email a day later saying there was still no release date for it.

Maybe Disney wanted to release an official announcement and press release for it on Monday? Or maybe since the movie's still doing well at theaters they don't want a Blu-ray announcement to eat into any more box office they can continue to earn?

I hope it does come out in April, eager to see the movie again at home. :)
 
F

Fancy Clown

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
Mhm, alot of people assume that Directors and to a lesser extent writers have alot of power when it comes to making a movie in their vision. The real power is in the Producers, and Executive Producers tend to have alot of power when it comes to making movies.

All JJAbrams being an Exec Prod for VIII and IX means that he's not behind the camera or directly writing the script. Otherwise, he determines where and how much each shot costs, whether a scene should be refilmed or filmed a certain way, and whether a rewrite will happen or ordering a new script.

If you want to make a movie, you always want to be an Exec Prod. That's why alot of famous Directors(Like Steven Spielberg) tend to have both credits as Director and Exec Prod. It gives them the most control over every aspect of filming.
Click to expand...

Nah, not really. Exec producers have sign off on many things but considering many are big directors they are too busy to be hands on anyway, and don't like to micromanage other directors since they know what that's like. Most exec producers just have a few meetings, help with funding, where the other producers actually do the day to day duties of a producer, which still generally come secondary to the director's creative choices (although this is all dependent on the individuals involved. Trevorrow was yanked straight from a small comedy/drama to blockbusters and like many before him that may be because the producers/studio to hold more creative sway over him).

Like Speilberg exec produced the Transformers movies but those sure as hell aren't Speilberg movies in any way shape or form, and I doubt he was too involved.
 
O

Oidisco

Member
Finally got around to buying the soundtrack and I'm a little bit obsessed with Rey's Theme. That and the Scavanger version are probably among my favourites from the entire series.

I want a Finn's Theme for Episode 8!
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Fancy Clown said:
Nah, not really. Exec producers have sign off on many things but considering many are big directors they are too busy to be hands on anyway, and don't like to micromanage other directors since they know what that's like. Most exec producers just have a few meetings, help with funding, where the other producers actually do the day to day duties of a producer, which still generally come secondary to the director's creative choices (although this is all dependent on the individuals involved. Trevorrow was yanked straight from a small comedy/drama to blockbusters and like many before him that may be because the producers/studio to hold more creative sway over him).

Like Speilberg exec produced the Transformers movies but those sure as hell aren't Speilberg movies in any way shape or form, and I doubt he was too involved.
Click to expand...

In some cases, sure. But for something like Star Wars? Links were already posted mentioning that JJ and the future directors/writers already decided and worked on (Presumably together, the way it was said) what paths the 3 films would take.

And to reiterate, just like the OT is usually credited to being George Lucas' work(And he did put work in the OT himself), despite being an exec prod for the movies after ANH and not directing, I feel Abrams is trying to take the same path.
 
B

btrboyev

Member
I don't see how she could have gotten away..it would have been nice to actually show it at least hint she got off the planet.

It's that or she is actually a clone which could also explain why she is returning.
 
K

Kitschkraft

Member
Oidisco said:
Finally got around to buying the soundtrack and I'm a little bit obsessed with Rey's Theme. That and the Scavanger version are probably among my favourites from the entire series.

I want a Finn's Theme for Episode 8!
Click to expand...

"Finns Confession" is his motif.

It's kind of weak though. Another area where his character didn't seem to get that extra polish.
 
S

SolicitorPirate

Member
So I'm rewatching Phantom Menace right now.

How is anyone even thinking of calling Rey a mary sue when Anakin, a fucking 10 year old child, is an expert pilot surpassing most adults, a mechanical genius able to build a working droid despite a lack of formal education and resources, a midi chlorian level of above 9000 and has fucking Jesus parallels.
 
B

Bananastand

Member
SolicitorPirate said:
So I'm rewatching Phantom Menace right now.

How is anyone even thinking of calling Rey a mary sue when Anakin, a fucking 10 year old child, is an expert pilot surpassing most adults, a mechanical genius able to build a working droid despite a lack of formal education and resources, a midi chlorian level of above 9000 and has fucking Jesus parallels.
Click to expand...

It only bothers people when a girl is really good at everything.
 
D

dragonyeuw

Member
timetokill said:
- Kylo Ren should've kicked their asses in that snow fight. Somehow these scrubs manage to not die against a guy who has been trained in use of the Force? I mean Finn got schooled by a Storm Trooper with a sci-fi baton. And he's not immediately disarmed in lightsaber fighting a dude who carries one around constantly? Dude just tossed her into a tree a minute ago, why doesn't he just do that a couple more times? In the beginning we see him hold a laser beam in mid-air for several minutes even while he's doing other stuff, and now he can't even toss Rey's scrub ass off a cliff? Come on. I really hated this fight. I get that Rey and Finn can't die there for story purposes, but you have to figure out another way to get them out.
Click to expand...

This has been explained a million times over by now, but Ren was weakened by the bowcaster shot. I don't buy the whole 'he was conflicted after killing his father' excuse, not saying he wasn't but I doubt that alone would have slowed him down to a degree that he couldn't function in a saber duel.
 
QuantumZebra

QuantumZebra

Member
Surfinn said:
I think too many people are forgetting that JJ no longer has control over the next two films. His ideas for Rey will be changed as the other writers and directors see fit, if they like.


I think this is more for the mere idea of doing it rather than adding anything beneficial to the film.

Talk about a waste of resources. Hope this doesn't happen.
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In the wake of TFA's massive success and JJ wanting to remain a part of it, he is the executive producer of the sequels AFAIK. His ideas for the story and beats are very likely to be kept.

WadiumArcadium said:
Kathy Kennedy said she'd return before the film even released. Pissed off Phasma incoming.
Click to expand...

Oh god I can't wait. I want at least 1/4th of the movie to be a Phasma revenge flick ala "Taken"
 
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