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[mlclmtckr]

How are these movies hard to follow? They are two and a half hour films with like ninety minutes of plot tops. The characters yell the themes of the story directly at one another. Everyone has like three defining characteristics and one big central source of pathos. The climactic moments revolve around fist fights and giant beams of light and the resolution of plot threads (will iron man and thor finally figure out how to put aside their differences and work together?) in the most trite and obvious ways (they did it!)

I mean I guess I can understand watching one of these movies and thinking you're missing something because nothing is connected to anything in the real world and there are no stakes and no one is relating on a human level to anyone else.

 

[Tobor]

They pretty much all work for casuals, though.

Casuals are the reason these films are clearing 250-350mil domestic almost every time out.

It ain't "the fans" as most people understand that term.

You don't make the money and the cultural impact these films are making because of "the fans."

Right, and the casuals love the serialization of these movies. Just like they love it on tv and everywhere else.

 

[Budi]

I have no problem with this. I'm not the intended audience of these movies, I do watch them occasionally and even like some of them. But I feel no need to watch every entry in the franchise, I can freely skip any one of them. I don't agree that the movies would be confusing because there's so many entries in the franchise. I think they mostly work on their own too. And There's still excellent films made every year that are not comic book movies or other blockbusters. Often the people behind these movies aren't doing movies for me anyway.

Not saying this wouldn't be worth discussing and criticizing though. But I can mostly brush it off. Interesting article, but hard to relate.

How are these movies hard to follow? They are two and a half hour films with like ninety minutes of plot tops. The characters yell the themes of the story directly at one another. Everyone has like three defining characteristics and one big central source of pathos. The climactic moments revolve around fist fights and giant beams of light and the resolution of plot threads (will iron man and thor finally figure out how to put aside their differences and work together?) in the most trite and obvious ways (they did it!)

I mean I guess I can understand watching one of these movies and thinking you're missing something because nothing is connected to anything in the real world and there are no stakes and no one is relating on a human level to anyone else.

This is good.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

The image in the OP is misleading, the writer literally points out Wonder Woman as one of the few 'cinematic universe' films that works for casuals.

Which is annoying, because Wonder Woman is as self-contained as most MCU movies are.

 

[Socivol]

I agree with this article especially with these interconnected stories it's just too much for me to keep up with.

 

[border]

As someone who really only watches Avengers/Iron Man films, I felt completely lost at times watching Civil War. Though part of that might be that they tried to introduce 2-3 new characters whole cloth without doing any of the necessary heavy-lifting.

But Civil War is really the only film where that problem of continuity has reared its head......

This seems like a lot of unfocused complaining about what amounts to a handful of films.

 

[Phased]

What's currently popular is always gonna exclude some group of people. In the 90s it was countless dumb sports, action and war movies that left 'nerds' out in the cold, now it's the reverse.

It'll swing back the other way eventually probably, but if not there's so many other avenues to get and consume entertainment nowadays it isn't like before where if big theater movies didn't cater to your interests you were SOL.

 

[Vanish]

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I don't like popular thing.

I know they make lots of money so no one should listen to me. But I think there is a subset of the audience that has been left behind in the push to inter-connect all the stories.

The fact that these Cinematic Universes basically make something like Nolan's Batman impossible should give people pause, I think.

How is there a subset of audience left behind? These "interconnected" movies only make up like at most 10 films a year out of literally hundreds or thousands of other films. There's plenty of other things to watch

 

[MugiwaraCole]

As someone who really only watches Avengers/Iron Man films, I felt completely lost at times watching Civil War. Though part of that might be that they tried to introduce 2-3 new characters whole cloth without doing any of the necessary heavy-lifting.

But Civil War is really the only film where that problem of continuity has reared its head......

This seems like a lot of unfocused complaining about what amounts to a handful of films.

Anyone who felt lost when Spidey and Black Panther were introduced in Civil War…I don't know what to tell you, man.

 

[CloudWolf]

Which is annoying, because Wonder Woman is as self-contained as most MCU movies are.

It's not though. You can understand Wonder Woman by just watching Wonder Woman and nothing else. Yeah, you might be wondering why

Spoiler

she's getting stuff from Bruce Wayne

but that's really not all that impactful to the story. On the other hand, a film like Ant-Man throws around terms like SHIELD and HYDRA, mentions Howard Stark and has an Avenger cameo. Someone not familiar with any MCU film before that will tap out at that point.

Anyone who felt lost when Spidey and Black Panther were introduced in Civil War...I don't know what to tell you, man.

Black Panther and Spider-Man shouldn't be an issue, since they are first introduced in Civil War, but I can perfectly understand why someone who only watches Avengers/Iron Man films feels lost when they suddenly got Ant-Man into the equation without any explanation whatshowever.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

On the other hand, a film like Ant-Man throws around terms like SHIELD and HYDRA, mentions Howard Stark and has an Avenger cameo. Someone not familiar with any MCU film before that will tap out at that point.

I don't think this really happens, though.

I mean, it'd be hard to prove/quantify so far as percentage of the audience that bails/leaves/gives up at that point, but it feels like this isn't really a thing that happens very frequently.

It just seems like looking at the dollar amounts any of these movies are pulling in, there's gotta be a much higher percentage of "normals" for lack of a better term who aren't that wrapped up (if at all) in the minutia of the larger universe.

(which is partially why the cinematic universe arms race feels a little like overkill - you don't need one to have success at the box office)

 

[BocoDragon]

Nolan's Batman isn't impossible though.

A trilogy on that same level of quality could exist within one of these universes. That you don't think one does (I do, Cap trilogy) is a matter of opinion, but there's nothing precluding that Batman from existing in a world with other DC heroes.

The thing is, we've already seen directors get fired/replaced on the MCU and now Star Wars (twice).

These interconnected corporate products can't really allow for much director's innovation because it will deviate from the established tone and brand too much. That's the problem with everything being connected: a baseline of tone and content is established and nothing can stray far from it.

The whole point of the Nolanverse was that an auteur was allowed to adapt Batman in a way that was kind of out of line with how most corporate interests would tend to adapt Batman (as big toyetic family friendly adventure). I don't see anyone being given that kind of creative freedom in an established universe. Well, not unless they're first (i.e. Favreau on Iron Man or Snyder on MOS)

 

[Replicant]

I don't know who Vision is unless I watch Age of Ultron but he appears in Civil War. You can say, "just watch the MCU, man" but that's kind of a cop-out for poor writing. Boromir in Lord of the Rings is actually a good example of not needing to see Fellowship to understand his legacy in the movies because its written in a way where you only need to understand how a brother's death has affected their family. Sequels and trilogies usually get less bite because they're usually more contained but its when you start entering the stage of multiple character arcs and new characters from branch areas that it becomes a hassle.

The problem is that you and many others are lazy. You guys want everything to be served to you on a silver platter without any effort on your own part.

But if it bothers you that much then you don't have to watch the film. These films clearly require a little bit of effort on your part to understand the little connecting tissues AND THAT is part of the enjoyment. If it's clearly too bothersome to you then don't bother.

But don't tell anyone that they need to confirm to your standard so you can enjoy it. The rest of us like the fact that these films required a bit more effort to understand the connecting threads that bind them together.

Like I said before, there are tons of options for you where a film is not connected to anything. Feel free to pick those and leave these ones.

 

[proto]

I mean I guess I can understand watching one of these movies and thinking you're missing something because nothing is connected to anything in the real world and there are no stakes and no one is relating on a human level to anyone else.

LOL. This critic is tryna breakdown these movies like a season of The Wire.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

It's not though. You can understand Wonder Woman by just watching Wonder Woman and nothing else. Yeah, you might be wondering why

Spoiler

she's getting stuff from Bruce Wayne

but that's really not all that impactful to the story. On the other hand, a film like Ant-Man throws around terms like SHIELD and HYDRA, mentions Howard Stark and has an Avenger cameo. Someone not familiar with any MCU film before that will tap out at that point.

You can watch Iron Man, Cap, Thor, Hulk, Guardians, Ant-Man, Spider-Man, and Dr. Strange without watching any other MCU movie. These are self-contained stories. References to Hydra in Ant-Man are wholly inconsequential to the plot (it literally pops up as a throwaway by the villain who's selling his evil weapon to them, but by then, it doesn't really matter who he's selling it to. He's bad and he needs to go down. The end). The SHIELD flashback in the movie is just as Easter Eggy as Wonder Woman's intro with her getting stuff from Bruce. Hank Pym used to work for someone, he left because they tried to weaponize his formula. It could've been Roxxon for all it mattered in the end. It's not integral to the plot.

(Also, virtually no one is tapping out of these movies because "WHOA, INFORMATION OVERDOSE". People aren't this stupid, so quit trying to die on that hill. If my 6 year old can do it, so can you)

Black Panther and Spider-Man shouldn't be an issue, since they are first introduced in Civil War, but I can perfectly understand why someone who only watches Avengers/Iron Man films feels lost when they suddenly got Ant-Man into the equation without any explanation whatshowever.

Civil War is an extreme case (in fact, it's the worst offender in the universe).

Most of the MCU movies do not fit that mold, no matter how many times you try to say they do.

 

[Pizza]

The problem is that right now none of the marvel films are very good if you ignore the cinematic universe behind them

I was over those movie after age of ultron was literally nothing and civil war confirmed that I was pretty much done. Fell asleep during dr strange. The movies don't DOOOO a ton because they're saving it for part 4 or 5. Why couldn't the Dr Strange movie be about shuma gorath or some fucking crazy shit? At least guardians goes fucking wild with space marvel (even if i personally am not into it) the majority of the marvel films just feel like paint by numbers things

Also sequels to things have always existed. See die hard, Friday the 13th, or nightmare on elm street. Same with remakes. The film industry is still relatively new so we're just getting to the point where we're seeing copies of copies of copies. Speaking of, I'm sure they'll remake fight club.

Marvel films, for example, are the new popular action movie. They're not really a new genre honestly. They just have people who almost look like they're wearing tights. If the Justice League rumors are to be believed it sounds like the DCCU is at least moving at a pretty brisk pace with their metastory instead of having the main villain gather unlimited power and then drop it on accident entirely in the background

 

[BocoDragon]

How is there a subset of audience left behind? These "interconnected" movies only make up like at most 10 films a year out of literally hundreds or thousands of other films. There's plenty of other things to watch

We live in a world where standalone superhero adaptations no longer exist.

There are people who would have gone to standalone Batman or Spider-Man films that would look at Tony Stark on the poster for Homecoming and say "oh it's one of those comic book universe things that isn't for me".

Maybe that's just five people including me, but someone was left behind.

 

[LionPride]

It's not though. You can understand Wonder Woman by just watching Wonder Woman and nothing else. Yeah, you might be wondering why

Spoiler

she's getting stuff from Bruce Wayne

but that's really not all that impactful to the story. On the other hand, a film like Ant-Man throws around terms like SHIELD and HYDRA, mentions Howard Stark and has an Avenger cameo. Someone not familiar with any MCU film before that will tap out at that point.


Black Panther and Spider-Man shouldn't be an issue, since they are first introduced in Civil War, but I can perfectly understand why someone who only watches Avengers/Iron Man films feels lost when they suddenly got Ant-Man into the equation without any explanation whatshowever.

None of that makes up an issue. I say this as a person who watched Ant-Man with someone who had seen 0 MCU movies to that point. They were still in it despite all that because the average audience member isn't a complete and total idiot

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Marvel movies are all self-contained. The connections between them are overstated.

Seriously. Someone mentioned that you need to watch 18 movies before you can watch Infinity War, but as far as I can tell, you'd get everything you need from the Avengers movies (and maybe the first Guardians).

That's not to say those other movies are bad! But, for example, the Iron Man movies literally have nothing to do with the Infinity Stones. They're all standalone. Same for most of the other movies.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I enjoyed Batman Begins up to the point where Bats got the joker playig card from Gordon and I realized that I had been tricked into watching a 140min commercial for The Dark Knight. Fuck Chris Nolan.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

The thing is, we've already seen directors get fired/replaced on the MCU and now Star Wars (twice).

These interconnected corporate products can't really allow for much director's innovation because it will deviate from the established tone and brand too much. That's the problem with everything being connected: a baseline of tone and content is established and nothing can stray far from it.

The whole point of the Nolanverse was that an auteur was allowed to adapt Batman in a way that was kind of out of line with how most corporate interests would tend to adapt Batman (as big toyetic family friendly adventure). I don't see anyone being given that kind of creative freedom in an established universe. Well, not unless they're first (i.e. Favreau on Iron Man or Snyder on MOS)

Rogue One was not like any other Star Wars film, even discounting the last act. Nor can you speak on the Han Solo film as no one has seen it.

 

[LionPride]

Seriously. Someone mentioned that you need to watch 18 movies before you can watch Infinity War, but as far as I can tell, you'd get everything you need from the Avengers movies (and maybe the first Guardians).

That's not to say those other movies are bad! But, for example, the Iron Man movies literally have nothing to do with the Infinity Stones. They're all standalone. Same for most of the other movies.

Deadass you would, but hey, people gonna find some shit to complain about

 

[MugiwaraCole]

We live in a world where standalone superhero adaptations no longer exist.

There are people who would have gone to standalone Batman or Spider-Man films that would look at Tony Stark on the poster for Homecoming and say "oh it's one of those comic book universe things that isn't for me".

Maybe that's just five people including me, but someone was left behind.

The box office take of these movies tanks this whole argument. Spider-Man is probably gonna make a billion dollars.

Most theater goers don't give a shit. Cut it out.

None of that makes up an issue. I say this as a person who watched Ant-Man with someone who had seen 0 MCU movies to that point. They were still in it despite all that because the average audience member isn't a complete and total idiot

/thread

 

[JCHandsom]

Civil War is an extreme case (in fact, it's the worst offender in the universe)..

And judging by the box office and critical reception, being the worst offender isn't actually an offense for most people. In fact I'd say it is a HUGE reason why it, and the MCU in general, is so successful.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

The problem is that you and many others are lazy. You guys want everything to be served to you on a silver platter without any effort on your own part.

It iss not lazy if we've watched it. There is nothing wrong with saying the story is brought down a little because it is weird connective issues. No one is saying you cannot enjoy these movies, that is a perceived slight you have fabricated. We are still able to criticize the story because of the connecting issues.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

And judging by the box office and critical reception, being the worst offender isn't actually an offense for most people. In fact I'd say it is a HUGE reason why it, and the MCU in general, is so successful.

Exactly. This thread really didn't need to be this long. The writer and anyone who agrees with her is wrong in the best case, a complete moron in the worst.

 

[Slayven]

You still going to get your hipster coming to age set to obscure 80s bands shot in dutch angle movies

 

[EGM1966]

Well yeah although I guess the impact depends on your circumstances.

I'm in London and can easily skip Hollywood franchise films if I wish (and mostly I do wish to) with plenty of other great films on offer that aren't franchises nor full of CGI.

If I lived somewhere with just a multiplex showing nothing but populist fare I'd go nuts though.

 

[LionPride]

We live in a world where standalone superhero adaptations no longer exist.

There are people who would have gone to standalone Batman or Spider-Man films that would look at Tony Stark on the poster for Homecoming and say "oh it's one of those comic book universe things that isn't for me".

Maybe that's just five people including me, but someone was left behind.

Who are these people????

Who I say???

 

[RalchAC]

I haven't seen Al MCU films and I've seen half of them months after their original airing because a friend had the Blu-Ray or it was on TV.

I've never had any problems understanding what's going on in those films. I don't see the problem.

 

[BocoDragon]

The box office take of these movies tanks this whole argument. Spider-Man is probably gonna make a billion dollars.

Most theater goers don't give a shit. Cut it out.

I never said you'd make more money listening to me. Quite the opposite, actually. We all know superhero movies are at an all time high, and it's because of the CU fueling interest across releases.

But just because the majority is enjoying themselves doesn't mean everyone is happy. I wanted original adaptations of superheroes and they've been completely taken away from me.

The closest to get there is Logan... and notice that it's essentially a far future elseworlds that is an exception to its CU.

 

[LionPride]

I haven't seen Al MCU films and I've seen half of them months after their original airing because a friend had the Blu-Ray or it was on TV.

I've never had any problems understanding what's going on in those films. I don't see the problem.

You're a normal fucking human being

 

[Anth0ny]

We live in a world where standalone superhero adaptations no longer exist.

There are people who would have gone to standalone Batman or Spider-Man films that would look at Tony Stark on the poster for Homecoming and say "oh it's one of those comic book universe things that isn't for me".

Maybe that's just five people including me, but someone was left behind.

Wouldn't Deadpool count as a standalone superhero adaptation?

How does, say, Raimi's Spider-Man or Nolan's Batmans not count as "one of those comic book universe things". You have to watch Batman Begins or Spider-Man 1 to fully understand Dark Knight or Spider-Man 2.

what a draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I never said you'd make more money listening to me. Quite the opposite, actually. We all know superhero movies are at an all time high, and it's because of the CU fueling interest across releases.

But just because the majority is enjoying themselves doesn't mean everyone is happy. I wanted original adaptations of superheroes and they've been completely taken away from me.

The closest to get there is Logan... and notice that it's essentially a far future elseworlds that is an exception to its CU.

We're a week away from a Spider-Man that's completely different from the two iterations that preceded it. The movie is drawing rave reviews, in part because of its successful spin on John Hughes style films.

You haven't even seen the movie yet, but none of the shit you're looking for in a movie matters because Iron Man is in it for less than 10 minutes.

 

[LotusHD]

Marvel is doing its own thing, but we still getting films like Deadpool and Logan, as well as stuff like the upcoming Batgirl movie, so...

 

[old manatee]

You still going to get your hipster coming to age set to obscure 80s bands shot in dutch angle movies

https://youtu.be/J0oDm4J3YOg

 

[BocoDragon]

Rogue One was not like any other Star Wars film, even discounting the last act. Nor can you speak on the Han Solo film as no one has seen it.

They literally did reshoots on Rogue One because the producers worried it wasn't "Star Wars" enough during production.

When you've got a universe, you've got a set tone, and that by definition closes sores on what's allowed.

 

[JCHandsom]

Marvel is doing its own thing, but we still getting films like Deadpool and Logan, as well as stuff like the upcoming Batgirl movie, so...

This. It's not an either/or thing, Hollywood is doing both.

They literally did reshoots on Rogue One because the producers worried it wasn't "Star Wars" enough during production.

When you've got a brand, or franchise, or sequel, you've got a set tone, and that by definition closes sores on what's allowed.

ftfy

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I'm bored of it tbh.

I hate that almost everything is a straight adaptation now, at least before even if they were adaptations they usually tried to put a twist on it. Meh

 

[BocoDragon]

Wouldn't Deadpool count as a standalone superhero adaptation?

How does, say, Raimi's Spider-Man or Nolan's Batmans not count as "one of those comic book universe things". You have to watch Batman Begins or Spider-Man 1 to fully understand Dark Knight or Spider-Man 2.

what a draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag

Deadpool does stand on its own. It wasn't my thing... but yeah, you could totally watch that without knowing or caring about the X-men universe. You could tell me that's a new universe and I'd believe you, it isn't slavish to cameos and crossovers.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Marvel is doing its own thing, but we still getting films like Deadpool and Logan, as well as stuff like the upcoming Batgirl movie, so...

These won't count for him because they're part of universes.

Lmao

 

[BocoDragon]

ftfy

But that's just not true.

Batman Begins didn't have to fit the tone of Batman and Robin at all.

 

[border]

Anyone who felt lost when Spidey and Black Panther were introduced in Civil War...I don't know what to tell you, man.

My point is that certain elements of the film that are murky could have been better contextualized if they didn't have to spend screen time trying to shoehorn in origin stories for two different superheroes. If you haven't seen Winter Soldier then Falcon might as well be a new character for you as well. "Who's this guy with the wings? What does he do? When did he join the Avengers? Everybody seems to know him so I guess I should too..."

 

[MugiwaraCole]

My point is that certain elements of the film that are murky could have been better contextualized if they didn't have to spend screen time trying to shoehorn in origin stories for two different superheroes. If you haven't seen Winter Soldier then Falcon might as well be a new character for you as well. "Who's this guy with the wings? What does he do? When did he join the Avengers? Everybody seems to know him so I guess I should too..."

That Falcon complaint doesn't make any sense. He was introduced (extremely well) in Cap 2, the movie directly preceding Cap 3.

 

[LotusHD]

That Falcon complaint doesn't make any sense. He was introduced (extremely well) in Cap 2, the movie directly preceding Cap 3.

These arguments are getting lazier...

 

[LionPride]

I'm bored of it tbh.

I hate that almost everything is a straight adaptation now, at least before even if they were adaptations they usually tried to put a twist on it. Meh

...

My point is that certain elements of the film that are murky could have been better contextualized if they didn't have to spend screen time trying to shoehorn in origin stories for two different superheroes. If you haven't seen Winter Soldier then Falcon might as well be a new character for you as well. "Who's this guy with the wings? What does he do? When did he join the Avengers? Everybody seems to know him so I guess I should too..."

Bro it's Cap Tre, that's the third movie. Watch literally the one before it and you good. These aren't issues people have really. Like at all.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

These arguments are getting lazier...

Then he claims that Deadpool works well as a standalone despite the two X-Men characters that pop up.

But <10 minutes of Iron Man ruins Spider-Man.

Whew.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

These won't count for him because they're part of universes.

Lmao

Deadpool is a mixed case. It comes from Marvel and is a Fox property, but it also has nothing and will not have anything to do with the X-Men movies themselves [for the foreseeable future] despite the Colossus character (not the same) inclusion. A lot of the humor does rely a bit on X-Men properties and the Fox films, so that does tie it up in a different manner.

Guardians of the Galaxy could be taken as it's own thing if one really wanted to, as it had nothing leading into it or outside content. Guardians 2 also stays within just the GOTG stuff, so those two together could be enjoyed separately from the MCU.

The Lego Batman Movie was its own superhero thing, even if loosely (from what I can tell) to The Lego Movie.

Original shows have also come out, though I can't speak to the quality.

Logan I can understand, as knowing how Logan was in his prime, his attitude that Xavier references, the X-Men, and who Xavier is both to himself and Logan are rather important to making the film work.

But I also find it off to talk about standalone superhero films and Nolan's Batman in the same breath as that was a trilogy than a one off piece, one that had references to Metropolis at the very least.

 

[border]

That Falcon complaint doesn't make any sense. He was introduced (extremely well) in Cap 2, the movie directly preceding Cap 3.

It's not a complaint so much as it is an observation that yeah, watching Civil War it feels like you've actually missed out on a lot of stuff if you aren't following these films very closely. I haven't had that sensation with any of the other Marvel releases.

Bro it's Cap Tre, that's the third movie. Watch literally the one before it and you good. These aren't issues people have really. Like at all.

Plenty of people skipped Cap1 and Cap2......Civil War's worldwide box office is 3X as much as First Avenger, and nearly 2X as much as Winter Soldier.

 

[Aureon]

I really don't get how TFA can simultaneously be something that's a practical remake of A New Hope and something you can't understand without knowing A New Hope, simultaneously.