Journey
Banned
The PS5 does have a lot more power then the One X, but it won't be rendering One X games at 4K, it will be rendering "NEXT GEN" games at 4K which is much harder to do so.
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Dusk Golem reiterates that the Xbox will be more powerful than the PS5 (Admitted to starting console wars, demodded)
The PS5 does have a lot more power then the One X, but it won't be rendering One X games at 4K, it will be rendering "NEXT GEN" games at 4K which is much harder to do so.
THEAP99
Banned
Cerny is an overrated idiot. Not sure why he gets so much praise.
the ps-4 is loud as fuck, ps-4 pro is weaker than the Xbox one x, and now the ps-5 is apparently significantly weaker than the Xbox IX (series x) because he decided he wanted to put all his marbles into the SSD. And for what?
Good luck showcasing the advantage of the SSD over the advantage of resolution, because showing SSD advantages is much harder to the average gamer. And if the ps-5 is more expensive, then it’s over and they fucked up everything they built up this past gen & more.
they’re banking timed or exclusive moneyhatt content to try and sway consumers with content while Microsoft will try and sway them with power.
Sony believes content > power will work
the ps-4 is loud as fuck, ps-4 pro is weaker than the Xbox one x, and now the ps-5 is apparently significantly weaker than the Xbox IX (series x) because he decided he wanted to put all his marbles into the SSD. And for what?
Good luck showcasing the advantage of the SSD over the advantage of resolution, because showing SSD advantages is much harder to the average gamer. And if the ps-5 is more expensive, then it’s over and they fucked up everything they built up this past gen & more.
they’re banking timed or exclusive moneyhatt content to try and sway consumers with content while Microsoft will try and sway them with power.
Sony believes content > power will work
PSNplanetcolony
Member
I don't see ppl claiming PS5 is stronger. What we do see is continued FUD about XsX being this vastly superior console, which is blatantly false propaganda.
Yes, the GPU is beefier with compute units, but clocked slower than PS5 GPU. At max theoretical performance yes you can get 15% better performance.
Console gamers have to be honest and realize most 3rd party games like madden are going to look and run almost identically.
How many times do gamers need to be disappointed by the hyped up FUD coming from Xbox "insiders"??
This is why most of community is shitting on Microsoft and their fake boasting
anothertech
Member
Craig
THEAP99
Banned
We already know the PS-5 will have the better games, for sure. But Sony and Cerny dug themselves into a hole with this one, especially if the PS-5 is more expensive.
SMH where is this hole because we still haven't seen anything running on Xbox SX that look as good as what was shown running on PS5.
Hype yourself up for disappointment over a rumor
CormacMcNulty
Banned
It'll also be very hard for an average gamer to distinguish between 1800p and 2160p when playing from couch.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
On what size TV?
Dabaus
Banned
Right now as we speak, Boomstick gaming which is an alternative universe xbox truther (for lack of a better term) is hosting podcast on youtube this very second titled: "PS5 More expensive & less powerful says trusted industry insider." Incredible how all of this bad ps5 bad news dam breaks the day after Halo gets delayed. More than mere coincidence I might add.
PresetError
Neophyte
Performance and resolution are two very different things. Next gen games can be more complex but 4K is 4K no matter the image on screen.
For some games you'll need to choose between framerates and resolution, as usual.
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jimbojim
Banned
Didn't saw the video. But very developer from Activision said that PS5 has VRS.
CormacMcNulty
Banned
I have a 55" OLED and I have a hard time telling the difference between 1800p and 2160p when playing from couch. Dunno about how much difference there is for bigger panels but in motion I don't think it's anything significant unless you zoom in 250% and compare side by side. Stable frame rates are much more important than 18% increase in resolution.
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alstrike
Member
On Reee they claim he's actually Jeff Grubb, go figure...
jimbojim
Banned
Don't worry, difference has never been so small like it now.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Can only speak for myself but when optimizing my settings on PC i can definitely see a difference when I go from native 4K then use the internal resolution scaler and drop it to 70% of 4K. Whether that was RE2 or RDR2.
Thirty7ven
Banned
On a desktop it's much easier to notice. It's much easier to notice different graphical settings too. You're sitting so close to the monitor.
CormacMcNulty
Banned
That's perfectly fine. I'm not as sensitive with resolution as I'm with frame rate but I do imagine how much would the average people who only plays CoD, FIFA will notice anyway. They just don't care.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
I'm not on a monitor. I game on a 65" OLED roughly 6-7 feet away from the recliner.
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CormacMcNulty
Banned
Correct. That's exactly why I was emphasizing the phrase 'playing from couch' so much.
And on PC NVIDIA is doing God's work with DLSS. It's frighteningly good.
Thirty7ven
Banned
You're sitting way too close to your TV.
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
"There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
Article by Richard Leadbetter, Technology Editor, Digital Foundry
Updated on 24 September 2013
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
"There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
www.eurogamer.net
Microsoft says that game performance doesn't scale with the number of compute units you have.
"Every one of the Xbox One dev kits actually has 14 CUs on the silicon. Two of those CUs are reserved for redundancy in manufacturing, but we could go and do the experiment - if we were actually at 14 CUs what kind of performance benefit would we get versus 12? And if we raised the GPU clock what sort of performance advantage would we get? And we actually saw on the launch titles - we looked at a lot of titles in a lot of depth - we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did."
but now Clock doesn't matter, only the number of CUs.
I've seen this narrative on another site, did you combine the same narrative when?
the narrative of "Sony paid for third content, and that proves that the PS5 is inferior" I read on a website in Portugal.
too much of a coincidence not to be orchestrated.
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Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Not really haha. Its the sweet spot. Always has been since Atari days.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
That's the idea. It still comes down to how good the cooling system is, but I'm basing off One X that they can handle it.
It would be ironic out of this if Series X is the louder of the two systems though, even if it's only slightly. But again, just comes down to how good the cooling is and MS nailed that already with One X. Sony's the one who needs to prove they have a very solid cooling system this time that'll keep things quiet, I'm fairly confident they will though.
Dat PS5 is a big boy xD.
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
"There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
Article by Richard Leadbetter, Technology Editor, Digital Foundry
Updated on 24 September 2013
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
"There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
Microsoft says that game performance doesn't scale with the number of compute units you have.
"Every one of the Xbox One dev kits actually has 14 CUs on the silicon. Two of those CUs are reserved for redundancy in manufacturing, but we could go and do the experiment - if we were actually at 14 CUs what kind of performance benefit would we get versus 12? And if we raised the GPU clock what sort of performance advantage would we get? And we actually saw on the launch titles - we looked at a lot of titles in a lot of depth - we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did."
but now Clock doesn't matter, only the number of CUs.
Both matter.
Also keep in mind saturation of CUs on 1st-gen GCN was...kinda terrible. That's part of the reason Sony made the customizations they made in PS4's GPU, and probably why MS upped the clocks on XBO. They were both valid choices for the respective designs, but RDNA1 (let alone RDNA2) utilization of CU saturation absolutely shits all over GCN's.
I honestly was not sure when I read your post since you seemed to add customisations to the Tflop delta between the two machines which implies that the PS5 has none.
Happy to get the clarification though
As to the actual customisations to the PS5 you list several that I would consider sophisticated BS right now - just like yourself.
I expect a significantly different GE since the GE that comes with the current RDNA2 design out of the box cannot do culling/prioritisation in the way Cerny talked about it in his speech. I believe this comes with both pros and cons. For developers utilising it it will give significant advantages to the entire rendering pipeline, however I have question marks how a standard PC-centric engine will manage this (i.e. might be a disadvantage in multi-platform titles with some serious eye candy in first party titles). How well Sony has developed the API will determine how it will fare in multi-platform titles.
Secondly, a lot points towards customisations regarding the cache/ memory side of things. Early information hinted at some weird soldering of memory chips to the board. This is one of those things that intrigue me the most but also one of those things that I am the most uncertain about. The person with dev-kit access was rather specific though.
Thirdly, it is the RT. Sony has been very tightlipped here and hinted towards that they did not go with the standard AMD approach. Some even interpreted that as if the PS5 would not have RT. Now that we know it has RT the question is what the silicon looks like. I assume the original information is correct that it is not the standard AMD approach. That begs the question though - what is it if that is not the case? That early information might of course be wrong and they sit with the bog-standard RDNA2 RT set-up.
And then comes the API.
Hopefully we will get to know more soon.
Yeah mentioning the GE customizations Sony have made with theirs...that's already been pretty much confirmed. And a while ago I figured that from the Matt engineer guy's statements, Sony may have made some of those customizations to the GE possibly to move some aspects of VRS further ahead in the graphics pipeline. That seems to be what the extent of it may be, but again I say "VRS" loosely as that's MS's implementation of such a technique. In Sony's case it would be something moreso related to Foveated Rendering and these customizations might have been done for next-generation PSVR but that also benefits non-VR games too.
As far as the cache and memory stuff are concerned, I don't think there's anything wild there we don't already know. They're using GDDR6, I know they have some patent for stacked RAM but that could've been for a hypothetical system design using HBM, which we know PS5 is not using, and while there are some prototype stacked GDDR6 designs around there's nothing in commercial sense. If Sony took such an approach it's likely for cooling purposes because if it gave a massive performance advantage I think they'd of mentioned it in Road to PS5, even if they didn't spend a great deal of time on the GPU in that presentation. There's also the SRAM cache on the I/O block, etc., and the cache scrubbers, but we've already known of this stuff by March. There isn't much else of high probability they have left to reveal in this area that would be a big surprise or anything outside of the conventional, except maybe some increase to GPU cache sizes or CPU cache sizes I guess
Ray-tracing I feel is kind of similar. Where did Sony hint about their approach not being AMD's standard? I must've missed it. Truth is though we don't even know exactly how AMD's RT works! We just know it's based somewhat on the CUs which is where some of the figures come from. The way MS have described some of their DXR RT also seems to indicate they might've done some alterations there beyond whatever the standard is, but to what extent is up for debate, as usual.
Sony should be doing a teardown either later this month or early September going by rumors, so yeah I hope we get a (further) deep dive into the architecture around then including exactly how the variable frequency works in real-world gameplay scenarios, etc. And of course there's still the Hot Chips presentation for MS on the 17th, so not long to go on that end
Fair points, and yeah tell me about IG xD. Upgrades are imminent once I settle on a build worth pursuing.
There's one very critical thing with Sony's approach I don't think has yet been answered: just how sophisticated is the monitoring software, and how is it managing for figuring the power load of game code to then determine what components get what amount of power? Is it fully reactive, waiting for the code to get crunched by the processor components, drawing the power and then using some kind of flag exceptions or whatever to know that power budget is being exceeded?
Dunno; it seems like they would need some kind of custom microcontroller and current sensors constantly noting power draws and having some fixed logic to regulate the PSU based on some fixed settings they gate through to automate the amount of current sent through the system, or something like that :S. Like I said, this ain't an area I'm well-versed in so I'm spitballing.
A few nVidia GPUs also use executeIndirect but that is a MS-derived technology.
Nvidia GPUs were first to market and able to leverage the tech by building the required hardware to implement the feature, but that doesn't mean nVidia created that feature set.
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LOLOLOLOL
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
www.eurogamer.net
"Everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance," he says, "but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock. There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that can cause you not to get the performance you want if your design is out of balance."
MS: increasing 17% TF by increasing the number of CUs is not as good as increasing the clock by 6.6%
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
"There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
www.eurogamer.net
"Everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance," he says, "but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock. There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that can cause you not to get the performance you want if your design is out of balance."
MS: increasing 17% TF by increasing the number of CUs is not as good as increasing the clock by 6.6%
Jason28
Has a tiny dick and smaller e-peen
This Dusk Golem guy is full of shit. First of all, ''fake4k'' already sounds like some warrior type fuel. Second, what can he knbow about the price ? Nothing. He is just spreading FUD because he is wants to be in the center of news, even if his posts are lies.
pawel86ck
Banned
It looks like series x noise level is similar to xbox one x.
Xbox Series X Noise Level is Similar to Xbox One X – Spencer
bargeparty
Member
Ha, totally understandable. I'm in the same boat, time for some pc upgrades, the ol 1080 isn't what it used to be. You're also not wrong, frankly I feel like we may never actually get that answer, it'll likely just be lumped in with the "smart shift" comments which I also feel like is most definitely custom and not just the off the shelf AMD version.
As per power we really only have to go off of Cerny's comments that there is enough power to feed both at max. Which again likely ties to Smart Shift. This will have to be one of those things we either must assume on our own, or hopefully once NDA's are up we can get more info about. Unless a patent is floating around somewhere. As for this pertaining to the current thread, will again I simply just don't see this Magic Difference that apparently exist. They either just had (because the info is months old) a older dev kit or there is a issue in their code.
Windows Central FUD is April / 2020
Jeff's account is an old print, to show that he has been saying "sony shit, junk playstation" on the internet for years ... and the ridiculous level of "my dad works at sony, told me that she will go bankrupt"
It is a very old joke in Brazil, from the time that there was no internet and there was always a lying friend at the school saying:
"my friend's cousin has an Uncle who works at Sony in japan, and said that she is going to launch a video game with 512 bits that will destroy the N64 with only 64 bits "
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Md Ray
Member
He didn't design PS4's cooling solution. That's a different department. Pro came out a full year before One X. And PS5 isn't significantly weaker than SX. Both SX and PS5 are, literally, the closest two competing machines have ever been to each other.
LarknThe4th
Member
I mean ganes already look beyond insane now, I'm sure the PS5 will have whole bunch of awesome looking games
Elog
Member
This whole story originated from the leaks from AMD last year. Arden and Sparkman had specific codes for the RT block as well as RT test results as output. Oberon did not have this.
Some people took this as 'PS5 does not have RT' - that is where that rumour came from.
Someone with DevKit access at the time claimed instead that the RT solution in the PS5 was more powerful than what was seen in the leaked specs regarding Arden and Sparkman.
Then Sony confirmed that they have an RT solution but still to this day there is no leaked document from AMD with RT connected to the PS5 chip which is weird. Who knows - might be a complete nothingburger - but it is odd that all AMD leaks had no RT solution for PS5 at the same time as the devkits had it. Confused.
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Md Ray
Member
Interesting find. Thanks for sharing. I had forgotten about this.LOLOLOLOL
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
"There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
"Everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance," he says, "but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock. There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that can cause you not to get the performance you want if your design is out of balance."
MS: increasing 17% TF by increasing the number of CUs is not as good as increasing the clock by 6.6%
THEAP99
Banned
Then why are we hearing about so many big discrepancies ?
Md Ray
Member
Where's the evidence of this?
One of the engineers who helped make PS5 asked the above question, and Golem disappeared nowhere to be seen.
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BurnCoalMeltPole
Member
From the horse’s mouth:Cerny has said 2GHz clock was already too much for PS5 GPU with fixed clock strategy, so why do you think PS5 GPU can sustain even higher clock (2.2GHz) now? Since you know everything then please explain me how technology works.
Cerny also discusses how developers can get even more performance by optimizing around power consumption:
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …
www.eurogamer.net
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Journey
Banned
LOLOLOLOL
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects
"There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
"Everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance," he says, "but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock. There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that can cause you not to get the performance you want if your design is out of balance."
MS: increasing 17% TF by increasing the number of CUs is not as good as increasing the clock by 6.6%
Xbox One leveraging clocks to match more CUs in PS4 = Lie
PS5 leveraging clocks to match more CUs in XSX = Lie
Thanks for the confirmation
More CU's > Higher clock speeds.
pawel86ck
Banned
I know smartshift will massively improve power consumption, but I want to know how such technology can make unstable clock 2GHz stable at 2.2GHz. PS5 GPU had not enough power to run at 2GHz with fixed clock strategy?From the horse’s mout
Cerny also discusses how developers can get even more performance by optimizing around power consumption:
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
As we all know, Microsoft was wrong about that. Almost all games ran and looked worse on Xbox One than on PS4.
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NoMoChokeSJ
Banned
Doesn't have to quadruple or double anything.. just make it more consistent. If the difference is 60fps vs 50fps it could make a big difference in enjoyment.
MasterCornholio
Member
Can it be possible for both versions framerates to be the same?
I'm assuming developers will just drop the resolution to stabilize the framerates on the PS5.
BlueXImpulse
Banned
No they weren't. Games looked worse because despite the upclocking the delta between the two systems was still large.
The delta between PS5 and XsX is not large.
Bergoglio
Member
More like the Playstation console with less new ip than ever.
Xbox One leveraging clocks to match more CUs in PS4 = Lie
PS5 leveraging clocks to match more CUs in XSX = Lie
Thanks for the confirmation
More CU's > Higher clock speeds.
The problem with Xbox One vs PS4 is that xbox One only had 16ROPs vs PS4 32ROPS & then there was the DDR + ESRAM vs PS4 using GDDR.
PS5 actually get real advantages from having the higher clock rate.
BurnCoalMeltPole
Member
I think your question is addressed in the parts of the article I quoted. If you do not understand that, maybe you do not even understand what you are asking?
Higher clocks are possible because the processor runs more efficiently, therefore consuming less power, just like what you said SmartShift accomplishes. So, under a fixed clock scenario (as mentioned in the article) without the ability to throttle, the APU can draw too much power, which leads to automatic shutdown.
Not only does this variable frequency paradigm improve overall system performance, it enables a new opportunity for optimization; the more efficient use of power allows real world performance to closer approach the PS5’s theoretical capability.
Journey
Banned
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